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#302589 - 09/12/09 11:57 AM On the Pledge of Allegiance
Hauser Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States

What is up with making impressionable students robotically chant to a flag and promoting nationalism? Is it merely an effort to subvert our children into becoming compliant and docile citizens and to glorify government? I mean, isn’t once enough? Why do they want them doing it every day? Besides, we have a law against betraying our country, its called treason, which comes with a possible death penalty. So what’s up with making kids recite this pledge?

I say that the only people who should be expected to collectively recite a pledge everyday are politicians, government officials and/or government employees. They should be forced to recite the “Pledge to Individual Rights” publicly to private citizens.

I pledge allegiance to individual rights
in the United States of America,
and to all private persons
under whom I serve,
one nation, of individuals,
under any Gods or none,
with liberty and justice for each.

smile


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#302594 - 09/12/09 01:04 PM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Hauser]
J.R. Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 307
Loc: United States
Hauser,

I have a differing opinion, but like yours, it is just that, and opinion. I think every man, woman and child should say the Pledge, and have a strong sense and spirit of Patriotism to one's country, wherever that may be. Reciting the Pledge for me is just one way to express your fidelity to your country, and what it has gone though in time and what values it stands for.

Just a thought! I am not trying to argue or be disrespectful, just to state another point.

J.R.

_________________________
Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired and success achieved. -Helen Keller

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#303441 - 09/20/09 08:06 PM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: J.R.]
melliferal Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Well the thing is, the Pledge has the word "God" in it, so having the children say it every morning will end school violence and reduce teen pregnancy.

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#303476 - 09/20/09 11:46 PM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: melliferal]
Sans Logos Offline
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Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
yea....and will reinforce the ideal of 'liberty and justice for all'......they should say it at least twice a day, then call me in the morning..... whistle

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#303504 - 09/21/09 04:13 AM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: melliferal]
Jaifian Offline


Registered: 05/26/09
Posts: 220
Loc: washington state, USA
Originally Posted By: melliferal
Well the thing is, the Pledge has the word "God" in it, so having the children say it every morning will end school violence and reduce teen pregnancy.

lol
I always wondered when I was young about the "and to the republic part" and thought "does that mean I'm supposed to be a republican?"



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#303513 - 09/21/09 08:11 AM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Jaifian]
J.R. Offline
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Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 307
Loc: United States
The Republic part has nothing to do with being a Republican. Many Americans have no idea what kind of government we have. Contrary to popular belief, the US is NOT a democracy, it is a Republic. A Republic system of government is based on the Rule of Law as it's governing body, not the concept of "majority rules".

J.R.

_________________________
Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired and success achieved. -Helen Keller

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#303516 - 09/21/09 09:14 AM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: J.R.]
WalkingSouth Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Originally Posted By: J.R.
A Republic system of government is based on the Rule of Law as it's governing body, not the concept of "majority rules".

Of course over the last few decades at least it seems the "majority" have failed to recognize that fact and are interpreting the "Rule of Law" to mean "our view of the meaning of the law." Gotta love politics! wink

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#303521 - 09/21/09 09:48 AM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: WalkingSouth]
J.R. Offline
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Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 307
Loc: United States
Well, that's exactly what is happening. People think that we have a democratic form of government, thanks to the education system not teaching correctly I'm sure, so in turn they start acting like it, trying to shape a new style of government if you will. Many American citizens are sleeping!

J.R.

_________________________
Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired and success achieved. -Helen Keller

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#303524 - 09/21/09 10:12 AM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: J.R.]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11183
Loc: Denver, CO
"And to the Republic, for which it stands.."

Article 4, section 4 of our Constitution states that "The United States shall guarentee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government,..."

This has nothing to do with the Republican party, and obviously says nothing about democracy.


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1. That


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#303526 - 09/21/09 10:17 AM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: J.R.]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: Hauser
So what’s up with making kids recite this pledge?

The best way to have a child learn is to use repitition - though maybe that's just the father/grandfather in me speaking out. Except the same is true for adults, just kids often pick things up faster. At any rate, I don't know how many places have kids "robotically recite" and how many teach the meaning behind the words as the children learn the pledge. And do I understand we should not be teaching nationalism? I say the pledge, I still get the feelings of pride in my country, honor for its soldiers, and admiration for its citizens. And it started because teachers cared enough to teach me not just the Pledge Of Allegiance, but also what it means.

Maybe time would be better spent trying to educate the adults to the truth between "republic" and "democracy" - the similarities, and actually once again making the country FOR the people, and not just OF the people.

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#303578 - 09/21/09 07:22 PM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: MarkK]
cstjude Offline
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Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Interesting. When did the recitation of the pledge in schools start? I wonder if it was a product of the period immediately following 1776 when you might encounter folks who still held allegiance to another flag (say that of England or France)and you wanted folks to have a public declaration of loyalties? Anyone know?

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#303585 - 09/21/09 08:14 PM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: cstjude]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
jude,

The pledge of allegiance was written by Francis Bellamy in 1892.
I can remember saying this oath in the 60's in elementary school but not in Jr high or high school in the seventies. i think it may have fell out of favor around the Vietnam issues in the late sixties. but not sure.

Alan,

I said the pledge everyday, standing at attention facing the U.S. flag every mourning during the first six years of school. and the last time I checked I was still human. you can make children to repeat things but you can't make them believe it.

mike

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"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

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#303631 - 09/22/09 12:16 AM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: J.R.]
Jaifian Offline


Registered: 05/26/09
Posts: 220
Loc: washington state, USA
Originally Posted By: J.R.
The Republic part has nothing to do with being a Republican. Many Americans have no idea what kind of government we have. Contrary to popular belief, the US is NOT a democracy, it is a Republic. A Republic system of government is based on the Rule of Law as it's governing body, not the concept of "majority rules".

J.R.


Key words: "when I was young". Trust me, I am not under any illusion that we have anything remotely resembling a democracy.

Plutocracy, on the other hand...



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#303662 - 09/22/09 06:04 AM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Jaifian]
LilacLouie Offline


Registered: 07/02/09
Posts: 359
Loc: Utah
If they want to say it, say it. If they don't, then they don't. Simple. I say it and I mean it.
As for democracy, democracy is not American, really. I don't recall the stuff I learned about it, but I know that America is a republic. We're not talking political parties, either.


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#303730 - 09/22/09 05:49 PM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: LilacLouie]
Jaifian Offline


Registered: 05/26/09
Posts: 220
Loc: washington state, USA
Originally Posted By: LilacLouie
If they want to say it, say it. If they don't, then they don't. Simple. I say it and I mean it.
As for democracy, democracy is not American, really. I don't recall the stuff I learned about it, but I know that America is a republic. We're not talking political parties, either.


If it sounded at all like you heard what I said I would reply, but you obviously didn't.



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#303801 - 09/23/09 03:13 AM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Jaifian]
LilacLouie Offline


Registered: 07/02/09
Posts: 359
Loc: Utah
Oh, I'm so sorry. How would you prefer I respond to someone else's post?


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#303818 - 09/23/09 10:15 AM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: LilacLouie]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: Jaifian
If it sounded at all like you heard what I said I would reply, but you obviously didn't.

now THERE'S a demonstration of true communication meant to edify and help a brother.

God bless the USA.

_________________________
the story
    https://1in6.org/men/bristlecone/mark-krueger/

Kirkridge - October 2008
Alta - September 2012
Alta - September 2013

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#303875 - 09/23/09 05:43 PM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: LilacLouie]
Jaifian Offline


Registered: 05/26/09
Posts: 220
Loc: washington state, USA
Originally Posted By: LilacLouie
Oh, I'm so sorry. How would you prefer I respond to someone else's post?


By using the "quotes" feature or making it more clear who you are talking to if there is the possibility of any confusion.

Sorry I misunderstood.



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#303893 - 09/23/09 07:43 PM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Jaifian]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
I think a more fitting/modernized version of the Pledge is in order, so……..tell me what you think?

“I pledge blind obedience, to the Socialist Government, of the United States, and to the great Empire it has forged, guided by divine providence, with corruption, mayhem and death for all that we can force it upon.”




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#303894 - 09/23/09 07:45 PM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Hauser]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11183
Loc: Denver, CO
I would remove "guided by divine providence." That's Declaration of Independence language.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#303896 - 09/23/09 07:49 PM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: FormerTexan]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Could you site the section? I don't see it.


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#303953 - 09/24/09 08:32 AM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Hauser]
LilacLouie Offline


Registered: 07/02/09
Posts: 359
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By: Hauser
I think a more fitting/modernized version of the Pledge is in order, so……..tell me what you think?

“I pledge blind obedience, to the Socialist Government, of the United States, and to the great Empire it has forged, guided by divine providence, with corruption, mayhem and death for all that we can force it upon.”


Ah, yes. The Roman salute. Showing true allegiance. Not much different than the swastika, a peace symbol in some cultures, and in some native American cultures it's called the "Walking Man".

The official pledge is
Quote:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


My preference for those representing us is
Quote:
I pledge allegiance to individual rights
in the United States of America,
and to all private persons
under whom I serve,
one nation, of individuals,
under any Gods or none,
with liberty and justice for each.




Edited by LilacLouie (09/24/09 08:37 AM)

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#303955 - 09/24/09 08:46 AM Re: On the Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Hauser]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
i noticed no one posted a link on a history of the pledge i thought it would be an interesting addition to the conversation. cool

ron

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  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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