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#298324 - 08/07/09 01:25 AM curious to know...
nomansanisland Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 156
Loc: NM
ive been here since february, i have tried so hard to forgive.

I can't seem to find it in my heart to let go of all the hatred, that has consumed me. i seem to need it .

i have for many years (40) felt the guilt and shame of being abused.

Now, empowered, i have switched modes, from victim to angry man.

now i am he who wants to wear his hatred as a badge that i was wronged ...

that it was not me that gave in willingly to being sexualized...

by a person who scared me into doing things that were never in my nature before he groomed me into doing so.

I know that i need to forgive to move on.

Why do I enjoy the hatred so much ???

what will it take for me to move foreward???

this hurts so bad.

nomansanisland

_________________________
" If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drum. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away." Henry David Thoreau

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#298332 - 08/07/09 03:12 AM Re: curious to know... [Re: nomansanisland]
philistine Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/27/09
Posts: 210
Loc: Oregon
Hatred provide fire for forward momentum?

_________________________
Mike

"No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself" - Nietzsche

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#298349 - 08/07/09 10:06 AM Re: curious to know... [Re: philistine]
DJsport Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1742
Hi, NML.

When I got to the place where I was ready I was able to with help forgive myself which for me needed to come before I forgave him/my perp.

I read the book "Abused Boys" by Mic Hunter and when I was ready I completed the forgiveness tasks.

I needed others to listen to me and my story.

You will get there. Be patient with yourself. You have carried this for awhile and it is apart of you.

Peace,
DJ

_________________________
Live to your fullest potential

Never make someone a priority if your only an option

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#298353 - 08/07/09 11:04 AM Re: curious to know... [Re: nomansanisland]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
i don't think you've really left the victim label stage yet noman,; now it seems you've progressed onto the 'angry victim' stage' based on
Quote:
now i am he who wants to wear his hatred as a badge that i was wronged


i think there's your key right there. and don't diminish the importance of that. you got to that realization in a few short months. brother, THAT IS PROGRESS. you must be drinking the right koolaide!

next stage after righteous indignation?

to learn how to get to the place within yourself where the thought label 'i was wronged' loses its power as a self identifier, and merely become accepted as an observation, as a neutral fact that it was something that happened, and to disinvest emotionally from that fact.

at the risk of seeming to be preaching, i'm going to step out on a limb here and defer to your christian faith. i believe from reading your posts that you have a relationship with/to christ. i'm not preaching, but rather trying to find a some common ground to discuss the victim modality here. [if you find this offensive, let me know and i will edit it out cool] . in the same sense that he was a blameless target/victim of a different kind of abuse, so were we targets of abusive acts, and we, like him, were victimized by those acts. we did nothing to warrant them being inflicted on us, but nonetheless, like him, we were. he faced that victimization as we did, like a lamb led to the slaughter, as we did. his life was cut off in the victimization, as was ours. his death a physical one, but ours a psychic/spiritual one.

what's the point? the joy of his resurrection to new life separated him from his past, and it became clear as mud that his life had been so much more than a mere happenstance, that his life was so much more than his abusers in their minds defined it to be. he was exulted. he could not have been exulted had he stayed on that cross, or tried to climb back up onto it after rising, or stayed behind the stone. no he left the past where it belonged : in the past.

he had spent his three days in hell...... a prerequisite for being exulted. and that hell is a place where many of us get stuck, clinging to the notion that we are eternal victims, we never allow the rest of the story to unfold because, for one reason, we don't know how to live outside the label. there is no methodology for getting there. and so for lack of a handbook telling us 'how not to be a victim' we remain the victim, each of us clinging to its many modes of expression: angry victim, the isolated victim, the disassociated victim, the whistling in the dark-victim, the survivor victim, the thriver victim.

i believe this is the supreme damage that our victimization experiences netted for us, yet it's the least obvious. we focus on the fact that we lost our innocence, our virginity, our right to self-determine, our sexual identity confusion, our capability to realize THE BIG DREAM for our own lives...all those things are true, but we rarely seem to realize that the worst of what we lost is the ability to not live as victims; that we have the power to restore ourselves to better than we were before these things happened to us. imagine that! the stone of victimization rolled away!

the question is, do we really want to take the responsibility for owning our resurrection phase, living free from the self label of victimization.

is it possible that we can have a life truly free from the effects of our past victimization, and move on as if it never happened? i believe the answer is yes. to the extent that we can remove our emotional attachment to the mentality of victim keeping us entombed, and disinvested, begin to see it objectively, as something that 'was' the case, then to that extent we will begin to move beyond the tar and feathers of sexual victimization.

christ is a model of hope and inspiration showing that this can happen. but as long as we remain on the cross, or in the grave, hell's 'three' days, it will be impossible to be released into our own freedom from the abuse of the past.

those are my immediate thoughts about the subject, so please forgive me if have misspoken here.

all the best,

ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#298395 - 08/07/09 06:53 PM Re: curious to know... [Re: nomansanisland]
Geeders Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 1901
Loc: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: nomansanisland

I know that i need to forgive to move on.



Whom do you need to forgive? Yourself, or him?

When I came to realize after years of self inflicted shame and guilt that I did nothing wrong, and that having a male body that was reactive, and responsive was outside of my control, I moved right to anger. I was angry that I was exploited and used. Some days now I get really angry again, but for the most part I have simply relegated it to my history file. Its part of my history, whether I like it or not. Nothing I can say, or do will change that. It happened. It is part of who I am now.

Forgive him? Never. No can do. One, he's dead. Two, I am confident that I was not the only one who he hurt. Until such time as we are all gathered together, (unlikely) it would be in my mind disrespectful of the others to forgive without hearing from the others. So, no. I will never ever forgive him for what he did to me, what he made me become, and what he stole from me, and those who I love. Never.

Jim

_________________________
My name is Jim
WoR Mysthaven 2008, Level 2 WoR Alta 2009, Kirkridge 2010, 2011, Oprah 200 men

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#298399 - 08/07/09 07:15 PM Re: curious to know... [Re: Sans Logos]
nomansanisland Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 156
Loc: NM
Thank you gentle men.

Phlistine, you are correct in your idea that my hatered will provide the fire for me to move on to my next stage. I realized that as soon as i re-read my own entry. It is as much of a fire towards rebirth as is my own acceptance that i was abused and did not bring it upon myself. i have always been "a pick your self up and brush your self off kind of guy..."

DJ , thanks for your insight, you too are correct. i did need to forgive my own self in order to move foreward. I still cannot imagine myself forgiving someone who has wrecked so much in me. I can only dream of the day that i do forgive. i see myself stepping more towards that goal as i open up and share with others. i cannot face the graphicness of it all, as i would rather dress it up so i can stomach it. Somewhat like calling a train wreck an accident.i have ordered the book and will move foreward. There has been this saddness in me, since joining and also such joy comming from actually discussing this all for the first time in my life. Thank you for helping me see things more clearly.

Ron, I dont find anything that you said to be offensive. I wrote the post on the spirituality thread as this is my chosen avenue for coping with this all.I know that forgiveness is expected and it has rocked my own spirituality to hold this position.I have always thought that taking the position that my step father was a child of perdition, a lost soul , an infidel or a native not reachable, therefore i was able to say forgiveness is wasted on him, he is the blackest of souls and there is no conversion for him. with that said i have been able to move foreward in my life. i have in a small way forgiven him for being a barbarian, it is his nature, he see's no wrong in the way he shaped his own paradigm.

As, you stated, i had no choice in my loss of innocence, self determination, and most greatly the chance to realize "the big dream" for myself with out the stigma of Csa constantly being there. Therein lies the direction of my haterd. Yes, the world is not fair, and i well know that , as does anyone on this site...I reamin open to change and accept this as another layer that has been peeled back from my facade.I want to trhnk you for contributing to my moving foreward , it means alot. I am left alone with my thoughts on all this and i am greatful for some conversation on what my mind has done with this.Thanks again to all of you.
as ever,
Nomansanisland

_________________________
" If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drum. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away." Henry David Thoreau

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#298425 - 08/07/09 11:49 PM Re: curious to know... [Re: nomansanisland]
JayH Offline


Registered: 08/07/09
Posts: 5
Originally Posted By: nomansanisland

Why do I enjoy the hatred so much ???


Do you really enjoy it? I know I used to believe that if I did something over and over that it must mean I enjoy doing it, but I don't think that anymore.

I'm not sure about the forgiveness part. I do know that it didn't take me very long before I asked God to forgive him. Probably mostly looking for relief and believing it to be the right thing to do. I'm pretty sure it helped.

Asking myself right now if I have forgiven him though, I can't say for sure. I know that forgiving is not forgetting. And I know that there is no resentment - or re-feeling of the original feelings anymore. But I can't intellectually say that it is possible to forgive him for doing what he did to me. But I'm pretty sure I have. Doesn't mean I'd invite him in for coffee though!


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#298486 - 08/08/09 04:30 PM Re: curious to know... [Re: JayH]
DJsport Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1742
Hi, NML and others.

I was amiss in my statement which I have rewritten below when I used the words "forgave him/my perp". I meant to use the word "dealt" not forgive. I have not nor will I ever forgive him. He inappropriately invaded my body due to his own sefish teenage pride.

I meant to say - "When I got to the place where I was ready I was able to with help forgive myself which for me needed to come before I dealt him/my perp."

Sorry for any confusion. I believe we DO NOT have to forgive another for the wrong they have caused. Even if asked for forgiveness.

I DO believe in self forgiveness for better health.

Rock on my brothers.

Peace,
DJ

_________________________
Live to your fullest potential

Never make someone a priority if your only an option

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#298564 - 08/09/09 11:38 AM Re: curious to know... [Re: DJsport]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Hatred (or a lot of other emotions, too) makes people feel powerful and gives the illusion of control, I feel; and I feel those feelings can become addictive. I know from my experience at least.

I guess I feel it can start to control YOU after a while of living it, and it's a very hard habit to break. When you spend so much time and energy on something, it can only get bigger, right? It sort of becomes the only thing keeping you "safe." But really, you're hurting yourself from the tension.

We seem to forget we can choose what to feel (by choosing what we focus on)...at least in my opinion.

Also, on the other point...

Never once did Dad ever feel sorry or sad for what happened because of my guilting and hating him and not forgiving.

The only person that my non-forgiveness ever hurt was ME and the ulcers I probably got.

Yeah, you don't *have* to forgive, but it's much better for your sanity.

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#298566 - 08/09/09 01:02 PM Re: curious to know... [Re: AndyJB2005]
sono Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 1069
I find it impossible to love when I'm filled with hate. I'm know it's neither mine nor original in thought, but that's always my motivation when I've been filled with this kind of emotion over other things. Just so I'm not misrepresenting myself, I'm not even to the stage of having real anger or hatred with the perp yet. It still feels like I'm reporting the news that happened to someone else. Liked "you bastard" though...I'm trying to write my own as a self help idea...get my anger stirred up...thanks for the inspiration.

_________________________
the family
the perp

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