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#296417 - 07/22/09 04:23 PM .
bardo213 Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
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Edited by bardo213 (06/21/13 07:43 PM)

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#296420 - 07/22/09 04:57 PM Re: Whats the difference?... [Re: bardo213]
ModTeam Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 691
Quote:
how the hell can someone be born gay? doesn't parenting roles in there child development years play a huge role on this? just as much as hereditary issues?..


Just a word of caution before this thread gets off on the wrong foot and heads down the garden path:

Quote:
Sexual Identity Issues

The issue of how to deal with sexual identity including our homosexual feelings is extremely complex – and many of us hold strong views which conflict with views held by others. In order to keep this survivor's site safe and supportive we ask that trigger issues be discussed in the ODF

Trigger Issues

* Cultural and religious views about the origin or nature of one's sexual orientation
* The negative ways sexual minorities (gay, lesbian, bi-sexual and transgendered folks) are portrayed, perceived and treated by others in society or by the law
* Dealing with feelings about our own or other's sexual orientation


Sexual Identity Issues
many of us hold strong views which conflict with views held by others. The Sexual Identity Issues Forum is the place to discuss confused feelings about sexuality and survivor behavior problems connected with sexual feelings:

* Sexual identity confusion
* Feelings about sexual attraction to other men
* Hyper sexualization
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* It is often difficult to discuss these issues without sometimes touching on overtones of the Trigger Issues mentioned above. We will try to monitor for them and act appropriately.


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#296437 - 07/22/09 08:13 PM Re: Whats the difference?... [Re: bardo213]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
I'll try: PS: I have added my own punctuation here & there.

"OK guys I've been kind of struggling with something about sexuality differences". How can you tell if someone is gay straight or bi? Generally by which gender that they are attracted to.

"What qualities would you say a gay guy carries over a straight etc..?" Basically there is no real perceivable difference, except who they are attracted to.

"I'm just confused about all of this, because can't a straight guy be effiminate just as much as a gay?" Yes "Liking golf, or boxing, or war movies... etc get my drift...?" Yes, even cooking or drag-racing, for instance!!!

"In society today we tend to over look things and make assumptions way to fast, just because of what we see in the media, billboards, news, movies etc". True, we do.

"How can you just point the finger at somebody kicking a can down the street and say he's not straight no way". It is impossible to tell if someone is straight or gay if they are just kicking a can down the street

"I bet that guy kicking the can down the street would kick your ass more then you underestimating him in the long run???"

"The other thing I ponder is how the hell can someone be born gay?" How the heck can a steer be born gay? Any yet, somewhere near 10% of steers are attracted to other steers instead of cows???

"Doesn't parenting roles in there child development years play a huge role on this?" I have to go out on a limb here...I do believe that some percentage of homosexuality is learned behavior, and some percentage of it is something people are born with. Hope that what I said didn't offend anyone.

"If you could please elaborate on it that would be greatly appreciated!" I have met plenty of effeminate straight guys, and I have met gay guys who were likely tougher-appearing than anyone that you have ever met. I have met gay guys riding Harleys, and I have seen straight guys waiting tables at a truckstop in Nebraska??? I have seen gay guys jump out of perfectly good airplanes, and I have seen straight guys who were effeminate hairdressers. I even knew a couple of straight-looking gay guys who ran an accounting firm once. My point is, there is no possible way to tell if someone is gay or straight based entirely on how limp their wrists are, or how tough that they appear outwardly. And my own opinion is that if someone was born in this country, they are entitled to the same rights that everyone else is entitled to, no matter what.

Anyone have anything else to add from a non-biased perspective?

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#296442 - 07/22/09 08:39 PM Re: Whats the difference?... [Re: Trucker51]
myboyhoodfears Offline


Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 457
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Edited by myboyhoodfears (08/31/09 04:03 AM)
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#296446 - 07/22/09 08:54 PM Re: Whats the difference?... [Re: myboyhoodfears]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
Oh well. you can't please everybody all the time, I guess.

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#296457 - 07/22/09 09:56 PM Re: Whats the difference?... [Re: Trucker51]
mogigo Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Anyone have anything else to add from a non-biased perspective?


Yup, but still loooove you're post truck smile

I'm a beer drinkin, hockey playin, MMA lovin, trade workin, mother...ooops sorry, I'll stop there.

But I do get ya. I hear that gays have this built in sense of other gays. I don't get it myself. I was in a class the other day with a trans, a gay and someone who iddentified as queer. They said "any gay will know what you're talking about if you use the right acronyms.

LOL, I had no idea what they were talking about.

I think maybe alot of the stuff they were talking about was the eye contact between themselves.

The problem I'm thinking, is I didn't make eye contact for 20 years.

Must be a survivor thing.

To sum it up, Hi, I'm Mike, nice to meet you. And that's it!!

SS

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Thriving

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#296460 - 07/22/09 10:05 PM Re: Whats the difference?... [Re: mogigo]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2574
Mark I agree with the greater majority of your post! I saw the thread and my first fear was... .oh crap... here WE GO AGAIN!!

Yet it's not the case!!!!

I agree, there is NO way to tell. Like make, I've known guys who were straight that most would assume were gay. One fellow at my college was EXTREMELY effeminate. He even talked with a lisp. His mannerism, actions SCREAMED gay if you were judging purely on the outward appearance and actions, but you know what? He was hetero moreso than many jocks that I knew at college.

It comes down to who you're attracted to and I think even more so, why. I think some guys are attracted to guys just because they are. I think some guys are attracted to guys because they have a deep need for male bonding and companionship and somewhere along the way that need got drawn toward the sexual. Doesn't have to though. There are certainly fellows who have that deep need that have no sexual desire for guys at all. It's not a black/white cut/dry thing. Hence the reason there is so much confusion about it.

It is a very rough subject and there are feelings out that flare up instantly on the defensive when these discussions come up. I'm glad that right here right now this appears to at lease be a safe place to talk about it.


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#296513 - 07/23/09 09:22 AM . [Re: JustScott]
bardo213 Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
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Edited by bardo213 (06/21/13 07:43 PM)

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#296514 - 07/23/09 09:25 AM Re: Whats the difference?... [Re: JustScott]
JDV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 311
I think part of the issue here is our desire to label people, thoughts and ideas. You must be either gay or straight (or bi, but that's still a label). I think it's helpful think of sexuality as a sliding scale with attraction for men on one side and attraction for women on the other. All of us fit somewhere in between on that scale. The most hetero of hetero guys isn't ALL they way toward the female side. Even he will have some form of "attraction" to men, even if it's just admiring a six pack or wanting to grab a drink with his buddies without women around. So, maybe youre asking the wrong question. Maybe you should leave the labeling to others and just try to understand where you fall on the vast spectrum of human sexuality without need or fear of the label that is associated with your particular place on that sliding scale. Just my two cents.

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#296528 - 07/23/09 11:46 AM Re: Whats the difference?... [Re: JDV]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
The way that I have read the history of what Lynchmob is asking, he has been the victim of some amount of name-calling over his perceived lack of masculinity at the hands of his co-workers and perhaps of some other people in his life. He lives in Wisconsin, which except for the urban areas of Milwaukee and Madison and their suburbs, tend to be fairly intolerant places over the course of my 30 years of trucking experience. Masculinity is heavily emphasized in most of Wisconsin and any lack of masculinity tends to be perceived as a weakness. Much of outlying Minnesota tends to have the same issues with an emphasis on masculinity and an intolerance of anyone different. So what he is asking here is coming from that kind of social perspective.

A simple answer for his questions is that you can't pre-judge a person's sexuality based on their level of outward masculinity. We have to try to see what is happening from his perspective to understand his line of questioning. I seriously doubt that what he was looking for was meant to disparage the gay community in any way. Yes, this question could have been a touchy subject if it was handled in an atmosphere of fear and mistrust.

So far I think that we have done a great job of keeping this discussion friendly. Thanks to everyone who participated in helping to keep this discussion safe and friendly for everyone.

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#296570 - 07/23/09 05:06 PM . [Re: Trucker51]
bardo213 Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 811
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Edited by bardo213 (06/21/13 07:43 PM)

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#296572 - 07/23/09 05:20 PM . [Re: bardo213]
bardo213 Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
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Edited by bardo213 (06/21/13 07:43 PM)

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#296600 - 07/23/09 11:53 PM Re: Whats the difference?... [Re: bardo213]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO

I found this link about passive-aggressive behavior that I thought that you might look into.

Hope that this helps a little.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/14713-eliminating-passive-aggressiveness/

This is from Wikipedia:

Passive-aggressiveness (negativistic personality trait) is a personality trait said to be marked by a pervasive pattern of negative attitudes and passive, usually disavowed resistance in interpersonal or occupational situations. It was listed as an Axis II personality disorder in the DSM-III-R, but was moved in the DSM-IV to Appendix B ("Criteria Sets and Axes Provided for Further Study") because of controversy and the need for further research on how to also categorize the behaviors in a future edition.

By way of explanation on that point, "Straight Dope" columnist Cecil Adams writes:

Merely being passive-aggressive isn't a disorder but a behavior — sometimes a perfectly rational behavior, which lets you dodge unpleasant chores while avoiding confrontation. It's only pathological if it's a habitual, crippling response reflecting a pervasively pessimistic attitude.[1]

When the behaviors are part of a person's personality "disorder" or personality style, repercussions are not usually immediate, but instead accumulate over time as the individuals affected by the person come to recognize the disavowed aggression coming from that person. People with this personality style are often unconscious of their impact on others, and thus may be genuinely dismayed when held to account for the inconvenience or discomfort caused by their passive-aggressive behaviors.

In that context, they fail to see how they might have provoked a negative response, so they feel misunderstood, held to unreasonable standards, and/or put-upon. This starts a new negative cycle, when the passive aggressive person "defends himself" from others' perceived stringent demands and retaliates with more passivity and unconscious sabotage. Impact of this behavior in the workplace can be considerable and cause some damage, because detection and remediation take some time.

Remedying this behavior can be difficult: efforts to convince the subject that their unconscious feelings are being expressed passively, and that the passive expression of those feelings (their behavior) invokes other people's anger or disappointment with the person, are often met with resistance. Passive aggressive individuals will frequently avoid treatment claiming that there is no way to remedy it.[who?] Since the effectiveness of various therapies has yet to be proven, these individuals may be correct.

Regardless of that opinion, Martin Kantor offers a treatment approach using psychodynamic, supportive, cognitive, behavioral and interpersonal therapeutic methods. These methods apply to both the passive aggressive person and their target victim.[2]

Developmental causes

Passive aggressive disorder may stem from a specific childhood stimulus (e.g., alcohol/drug addicted parents) in an environment where it was not safe to express frustration or anger. Families in which honest expression of feelings was forbidden, tend to teach children to repress and deny their feelings and use other channels to express their frustration.

Children who sugarcoat their hostility do not grow beyond it. Never developing better coping strategies or skills sets for self-expression, they can become adults who, beneath the seductive veneer, harbor vindictive intent.[3]

History

Passive aggressive behavior was first clinically used in the context of "defying" authoritative figures. But noncompliance is not indicative of true passive aggressive behavior, which is the manifestation of repressed, self-imposed oppression of emotions based on a need for acceptance. Anger turned inwards that has no other way to heal or express itself will either turn into depression or passive aggression.

Signs of passive-aggressive behavior

The book Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man lists 11 responses that may help identify passive-aggressive behavior. [4]

* Ambiguity or speaking cryptically: a means of engendering a feeling of insecurity in others
* Chronically being late and forgetting things: another way to exert control.
* Fear of competition
* Fear of dependency
* Fear of intimacy as a means to act out anger: The passive aggressive often cannot trust. Because of this, they guard themselves against becoming intimately attached to someone.
* Making chaotic situations
* Making excuses for non-performance in work teams
* Obstructionism
* Sulking
* Victimization response: instead of recognizing one's own weaknesses, tendency to blame others for own failures.

A passive-aggressive person may not have all of these behaviors, and may have other non-passive-aggressive traits.

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#296661 - 07/24/09 01:17 PM Re: Whats the difference?... [Re: Trucker51]
DJsport Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1742
Hi, Guys.

I am not sure I understand the "point" of this post.

When I read the original posting it sounds as if the issue was how can one tell if another is gay or straight, correct?

I know there are A LOT of explanations for various aspects of the issue. My reply is I D K which stands for I Dont Know.

But, I am thinking what does it matter. Oh sure, I have met very muscular "burly" men who sound like a girl and skinny skrony men with painted finger nails who sound as if their vocal cords are in the sewer but, I realize these are men who put on their pants just like I do. What do I care who they go to bed with unless of course I have a desire for muscle or painted finger nails.

I wanted to add my thoughts. I will go back to my sandbox now and play.

Peace,
DJ

_________________________
Live to your fullest potential

Never make someone a priority if your only an option

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#296672 - 07/24/09 04:28 PM . [Re: DJsport]
bardo213 Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 811
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Edited by bardo213 (06/21/13 07:44 PM)

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#296680 - 07/24/09 05:35 PM Re: Whats the difference?... [Re: bardo213]
DJsport Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1742
Hi, Lynchmob.

I am sorry if I cut you off. I had no intention of "cutting you off".

I was trying to address or respond to just the one issue or question of Whats the difference.

It is how I think of the issue. As I read my response, I realize I was "short" in my response.

I realize now that there is more at questions that I did not respond too.

DJ

_________________________
Live to your fullest potential

Never make someone a priority if your only an option

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#296738 - 07/24/09 10:51 PM . [Re: DJsport]
bardo213 Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 811
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Edited by bardo213 (06/21/13 07:44 PM)

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#296807 - 07/25/09 06:57 PM Re: Whats the difference?... [Re: bardo213]
JasonSmalls Offline
Guest

Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 142
Loc: NJ
I never really understand why straight guys try so hard to convince the world how much they are sickened by two men in love.

"I just can't see myself with another guy that just doesn't sound right to me at all, not because of society but because of my own beliefs. I love women... I have my gf and thats all that counts to me."

Plus I don't understand why an obvious straight guy is posting in a forum for those who struggle with sexual identity issues, not unless that person truly does have issues with attractions to men.

and by the way, you bring up "gaydar." i think everybody has a sense of someone's sexuality. how come straight people automatically assume someone's straight?

how can somebody be born straight? i'm gay and i've always been gay.....so i see straight people as a little strange just like straight people see us gay people as being strange. i could never imagine having sex with a woman. I LOVE MEN!

Why does there have to be a difference? why can't everybody just go about their business and accept each other for who we are HUMAN! Why is it soooo important for anyone to know or even care if their best friend is gay or straight or bi or whatever. Why do you wonder about the guy's sexuality who's kicking the can down the street? What does being gay have to do with being abused?

I was abused by a man as a little boy. I dunno if that made me gay or i was born gay, but it doesnt matter because if i have a sexual relationship with a man i'm in love with, that's NOT abuse!

I'm getting sick of fighting with the world on why i'm gay, or she's straight, or they're bi. What does it matter?

Joey


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#296889 - 07/26/09 01:28 AM Re: Whats the difference?... [Re: JasonSmalls]
Hopeful1 Offline


Registered: 07/22/09
Posts: 18
Loc: Pacific Northwest
Accepting gay men as simply being men makes it easier to accept yourself. If a gay man is as good as any other man, then it's a little less scary to either feel unmanly or that you might be gay. The process of self-awareness, self-understanding and self-acceptance may not automatically follow, but it does seem a little less complicated.

_________________________
Now hope that is seen is not hope, For who hopes for what he sees? (Rom. 8:24)

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#297465 - 07/30/09 03:22 PM . [Re: Hopeful1]
bardo213 Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 811
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Edited by bardo213 (06/21/13 07:44 PM)

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#297594 - 07/31/09 05:08 PM Re: Whats the difference?... [Re: bardo213]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
I am going to chalk this discussion up to it being one of genuine intent and not meaning to hurt or insult anyone.

I hope that is how it is anyway. I always think tolerance is a great gift to extend to someone else.



Edited by prisonerID (07/31/09 05:09 PM)
_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#297649 - 07/31/09 11:15 PM Re: Whats the difference?... [Re: bardo213]
LilacLouie Offline


Registered: 07/02/09
Posts: 359
Loc: Utah
Lynchmob- I don't know you so as far as I'm concerned you're part of us here.

Jasonsmalls- I'm not sickened by seeing two men in love. AFAIC if they are in love, it's still a beautiful thing. Love itself is a beautiful thing.

Yes, I straight. AND I am having sexual identity issues.




Edited by ModTeam (07/31/09 11:27 PM)

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#298271 - 08/06/09 01:31 PM . [Re: LilacLouie]
bardo213 Offline
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Registered: 11/21/07
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Edited by bardo213 (06/21/13 07:44 PM)

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