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#294838 - 07/10/09 05:41 AM Re: Why does nobody recognize I'm an outcast? [Re: dark empathy]
LilacLouie Offline


Registered: 07/02/09
Posts: 359
Loc: Utah
....



Edited by LilacLouie (07/12/09 04:06 AM)

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#294847 - 07/10/09 06:22 AM Re: Why does nobody recognize I'm an outcast? [Re: dark empathy]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Luke,

Originally Posted By: dark empathy
No, i cannot imagine a worthless boy, ---- nor yet a worthless girl for that matter. No, i don't think anyone I've met here is worthless either.

I understand both of these facts, and I accept them, ----- but i'm stil different in some way.

maybe it's because i think of myself as neither male nor female nor adult nor child, --- just me, singular and alone.

Maybe there's somethig in me which believes i'm less human than everyone else, ---- I'm not sure.

this seems to be the core of my abuse, and while there's also lots of fear and that huge desire for communication with another person on a certain level, my worthlessness seems to be what I struggle with most, ---- in fact I think the desire for communication is tied very much into my feeling of worthlessness.

I picked out this part of your reply because I think it's the heart of the matter. Can I tell you what I see in all this?

You know intellectually that when a boy is abused that speaks to the abuser's selfishness and lack of empathy; it doesn't mean the boy is worthless. Indeed, all it says about the boy is that he is defenseless - and children have a right to be defenseless and to need protection and guidance.

But emotionally you are still carrying the burden of blame for the abuse. At some level you think you are at fault, and this is exactly what so many boys do when they are hurt like this. And those feelings don't fade away just because the boy is all grown up now - look at all the guys here who still feel that somehow the abuse was their fault.

But ask yourself why the boy does this, and look at what the options are for an abused boy. There are two choices open to him: it was the abuser's fault, or it was his own fault. If the boy decides he is innocent and it was the abuser's fault, then the abuse is happening for no reason he can act on. He is helpless and the abuse is likely to go on indefinitely. And for a boy that seems to mean forever. I recall so vividly that when I was being abused I thought it would always be like this. It just didn't occur to me that math was on my side in this respect: I was 10 and the abuser was in his 50s, so it COULDN'T go on all the rest of my life. But never mind. I was a kid and this was how I thought.

The other choice is to blame himself. That isn't a very happy solution either, but at least it allows the boy to think that if he can only discover why it is he is making this happen, and then change that, the abuse will end. That is, he can tell himself that he can still make a difference; he isn't powerless and a totally helpless victim.

Which is the true solution? Obviously the first one - it's the abuser's fault. But which will the boy opt for - the second. We see this all the time, and not just where abuse is concerned. His parents divorce, a loved one dies, etc., and a kid thinks that somehow it's his fault. He has been bad, he has done something that made the disaster happen.

The problem for us as adults is that the terrible feelings we have brought with us from childhood have been there a long time and have spent years and years in our heads unchallenged. These emotional views of ourselves and the world can't be altered or dismissed just because they don't "make sense" according to what we know intellectually.

And in any case, over the years we have also erected walls around these views to protect them, as you have done with your feelings that somehow you are unique, sub-human, and so on. That kind of thinking allows you to continue believing that you alone, of all survivors, are worthless. Many guys think like that, and these too are emotional views that need to be worked on. They are very real, but they're just not true.

You are seeing the truth of this all the time. Your friends in various social situations relate to you because, in fact, you are an interesting person whom they regard as a valued friend. I know that too, since, as you will recall, you attended the Mike Lew workshop I organized. Everyone there got along just fine with you, and why not? You really are a worthwhile person, just as special and important as anyone else in the room.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#294848 - 07/10/09 06:31 AM Re: Why does nobody recognize I'm an outcast? [Re: LilacLouie]
Jaifian Offline


Registered: 05/26/09
Posts: 220
Loc: washington state, USA

One thing that helps me is thinking about the whole idea of worth and worthlessness as applied to human beings.

To say you have value or no value is equally demeaning to yourself because it places you on a level with tools and appliances---objects which exist for the benefit of humans.

We get to thinking that we too exist for the benefit of humans and forget that we are humans ourselves. Certainly our lives are richer if we contribute to the welfare of others, but we do not exist for that purpose.

The idea of just being and experiencing life without having any purpose or value in relation to said purpose is a pretty radical idea but for me it's an oasis of sanity!

I live in a city where men are judged solely on how affluent they appear to be and so here men think of themselves as just money making appliances. It's very sad.










Edited by Jaifian (09/08/09 12:02 PM)

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#294850 - 07/10/09 08:03 AM Re: Why does nobody recognize I'm an outcast? [Re: Jaifian]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2024
Loc: durham, north england
Hi.

If it were symply a matter of logic or of telling myself something it strikes me I'd have done it long ago.

I fully agree both about worth and value, and as I said I sincerely believe everyone has an intrinsic worth and is worthy of love and considderation, ----- except me.

Why except me? what's so different about me?
nothing! it's simply because I'm me and there's an end to it.

I've met people who value others with respect to some external property, physical attractiveness, intelligence, money making ability, and I generally reguard them as very sad, blinkered people.

However I can't even defign what is so different about me, it is simply the case that I am! worthless, ---- and irriduceably so. I have no idea how to deal with this, and am incredibly frustrated and angry with myself for not being able to.

TTo the others who've said they feel the same thing, I feel a great deal of compassion and want to say "your not worthless, ---- nobody is" and to try and releave the suffering they're in, --- but for me? certainly not!

I know I'm sounding like a stuck record, and I hate! being in this position, but it just seems I walk miles and miles on the road to dealing with this and end up no where.

I'm also fairly certain my desire for the sort of communication I want with someone, ---- a desire which burns like fire is because part of me thinks that in that form of communication I'd be forced to see I'm not worthless.

but it's like the chicken and the egg, my worthlessness stops me from believing that anyone else would want to be close to me, or able to make any steps towards that (bloody! male! sexist! first move relationship politics!), and that lack of communication makes me feel more worthless.

I hate! myself! for being this stuck!




sorry, need to step back now.


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#294896 - 07/10/09 08:22 PM Re: Why does nobody recognize I'm an outcast? [Re: dark empathy]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2590
You're not alone in your feelings about feeling like an outcast.

I feel that way all the time.

Even here I feel like I don't belong.

If you figure out how to fix it, let me know. If I figure it out, I'll let you know.


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#295230 - 07/14/09 08:35 AM Re: Why does nobody recognize I'm an outcast? [Re: roadrunner]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2024
Loc: durham, north england
Hi Larry.

sorry, i think I must have missed your reply to this thread last week when i was reading through with my screen reader sinse I replied to Jaifian and not you.

Of the two routes you mention, ----- blaming myself or blaming my abusers, I'm really not sure which one I took.

My overwhelming feeling at the time was of powerlessness, of being caught up in a natural desaster. My abusers quite literally weren't people, they were things, ----- and there are some very dark and horrible places down that road of thinking.

Whether I got abused or not was often based on an trivial matters, ----- on one occasion for example, i remember the teacher splitting the class and leaving myself and several highly unpleasant people to "work alone in a group" at which point something very humiliating happened to me.

Did I blame myself? I'm not actually sure sinse the agencies of my abuse felt so external, ----- so completely out of my control I couldn't have any influence.

that's probably why for a long time (and even at the only counceling session I had at the age of 15), I was so angry at the school's staff, sinse I felt it was their responsability to stop this from happening, and when on the last day of school, one of the girls involved in my abuse turned round and spat on the head of year, ---- who'd told me that "Their a very nice year" and in fact completely ignored what was happening I felt a great sense of pleasure.

About the subhuman thin, i was told actively that I was worthless, deseased, etc, for several years, ----- even before the abuse started, that I wasn't like anyone else, and in truth I've never really felt as if I belonged anywhere.

I'm genuinely not sure on the blame issue, sinse it sounds like saying "did you blame yourself for the earthquake" something which was so huge and out of my control, I felt absolutely powerless to do anything with.

Your de>

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#295703 - 07/17/09 09:08 PM Re: Why does nobody recognize I'm an outcast? [Re: dark empathy]
Jaifian Offline


Registered: 05/26/09
Posts: 220
Loc: washington state, USA
Originally Posted By: dark empathy
Hi.

If it were symply a matter of logic or of telling myself something it strikes me I'd have done it long ago.

I fully agree both about worth and value, and as I said I sincerely believe everyone has an intrinsic worth and is worthy of love and considderation, ----- except me.

Why except me? what's so different about me?
nothing! it's simply because I'm me and there's an end to it.

I've met people who value others with respect to some external property, physical attractiveness, intelligence, money making ability, and I generally reguard them as very sad, blinkered people.

However I can't even defign what is so different about me, it is simply the case that I am! worthless, ---- and irriduceably so. I have no idea how to deal with this, and am incredibly frustrated and angry with myself for not being able to.

TTo the others who've said they feel the same thing, I feel a great deal of compassion and want to say "your not worthless, ---- nobody is" and to try and releave the suffering they're in, --- but for me? certainly not!

I know I'm sounding like a stuck record, and I hate! being in this position, but it just seems I walk miles and miles on the road to dealing with this and end up no where.

I'm also fairly certain my desire for the sort of communication I want with someone, ---- a desire which burns like fire is because part of me thinks that in that form of communication I'd be forced to see I'm not worthless.

but it's like the chicken and the egg, my worthlessness stops me from believing that anyone else would want to be close to me, or able to make any steps towards that (bloody! male! sexist! first move relationship politics!), and that lack of communication makes me feel more worthless.

I hate! myself! for being this stuck!




sorry, need to step back now.


Yeah, I'd be the first one to admit there's a lot of feelings that don't respond at all to logic. I dare say feelings like that are so deeply rooted in our subconscious that they are virtually unreachable except through hypnotharapy, psycho-analysis or something like that.

I also have persistent feelings of inferiority and can't always talk myself out of them.

One thing I am about to try for my nightmares is making a recording with soothing music and my own voice repeating suggestions to go to sleep to.

I'm a little skeptical, but at this point I just have to try something.

In my case, I will repeat something like "Tonight I will dream only safe dreams." but in your case you might use something like "I am a precious, valuable person."

I know it sounds like a lame idea, but you never know for sure till you try it.








Edited by Jaifian (09/08/09 12:01 PM)

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#295712 - 07/17/09 10:06 PM Re: Why does nobody recognize I'm an outcast? [Re: Jaifian]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2024
Loc: durham, north england
i have actually ot some meditation cd's which work like that which I have tried.

The problem is as soon as I get myself past the "this is stupid" end of things, I start feeling exactly what I feel when I'm complemented, ----- pain!

One sure fire way to make me cry and hurt me extremely is to give me a complement which I cannot avoid or side step (it's made meeting people after one of my singing performances very difficult indeed).

Usually I'll try and side step such things, but if I'm caught at the wrong time, or the coplement is from someone I have a profound respect for or value the opinions of, ----- then the result is pain!

In fact my 14 month long absense from alcohol (which only finished in february), began when a very artless but well meaning frend of mine said something vaguely nice about me while we were sharing a botle of champeigne one christmas and I completely lost control and started crying.

Cryticism is fine, ---- I view it as a teeching tool, and often in fact ask people for their honest opinions of things I do so that I can have an evaluation. But complements, words of encouragement, or even good evaluations from people who's opinions I respect really! hurt!


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#295716 - 07/17/09 10:26 PM Re: Why does nobody recognize I'm an outcast? [Re: dark empathy]
Jaifian Offline


Registered: 05/26/09
Posts: 220
Loc: washington state, USA
I've felt that way about complements too. It's like someone pinning a medal on your chest that you somehow know is bogus but don't know why.

Another of the wonderful gifts(sarcasm) that we can thank our abusers for.




Edited by Jaifian (09/08/09 12:02 PM)

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#295720 - 07/17/09 10:43 PM Re: Why does nobody recognize I'm an outcast? [Re: Jaifian]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 2024
Loc: durham, north england
Like someone pinning a medel on my chest?

Well yes in the literal sense, ----- ie, I am naked and having a pin jabbed into my chest.

It is not that I feel the complement is bogus or unmeaning, ---- in fact if I can dismiss a complement as "just being polite" or similar, then I can avoid considderable trouble.

It's that the complement feels so physically wrong! so profoundly different from the way I am inside, it builds up a sense of pressure, of force, of a deep wounding which I can't even quite explain.

it'd be like trying to swallow ahuge lump of solid, unmelting ice. it's cold, it's painful, it hurts, and you feel it push and scrape and burn all the way down your throat and into your stomach sinse it's not meant to be swallowed and forced down like that.

That's how complements are for me.


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