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#291881 - 06/16/09 01:16 PM Re: Obama's doing it again......... [Re: cstjude]
melliferal Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: cstjude
Albert Einstein said you cannot simultaneously prepare for war and peace.


Albert Einstein was a physicist, not a political scientist.

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#291892 - 06/16/09 02:01 PM Re: Obama's doing it again......... [Re: melliferal]
cstjude Offline
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Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Albert Einstein was a genius. And an eloquent commentator on many, many aspects of the human condition and our place in the universe.

I'll take his moral authority, insights, and advice over most poiltical scientists' any day. smile

C.

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#291895 - 06/16/09 02:08 PM Re: Obama's doing it again......... [Re: michael banks]
cstjude Offline
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Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Hi Michael,

You and I often wind up respectfully on opposite sides of a debate. smile But I always learn a great deal from you. So, I hope you know I ask this without any objective other than to understand the idea being expressed. Whe you say that the US has expended money "saving the world", what do you mean?

C.

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#291912 - 06/16/09 04:09 PM Re: Obama's doing it again......... [Re: cstjude]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Jude,

Americans have very much an attitude and belief in "manifest destiny" since almost the birth of this nation. And this outlook very much affects how we see and react to the world. I can still remember being taught this in school. This belief I believe was reinforced by the events of WWI & WWII. And because of this we see ourselves and our actions to be to the benefit of the whole world.

Mike


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#291919 - 06/16/09 05:05 PM Re: Obama's doing it again......... [Re: michael banks]
cstjude Offline
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Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Thanks. But the US didn't enter WWI until 1917 (a year before it ended) and didn't enter WWII until 1942 after Pearl Harbour (almost three years in). That is not to say that the sacrifices American troops and families made in those horrific conflicts weren't important. And many would argue that the US intervention was the tipping point for the battles in Europe and certainly the decisive catalyst for the end of the War in the Pacific at the end of WWII that opened up the atomic age. It is interesting that the classroom lessons you recall are a conduit for that kind of rhetoric. It is still alive and well, as you say, and I notice it whenever I visit your wonderfully dynamic, energetic country. But would you agree that today there is a disconnect between the kind of optimism generated by a young, revolutionary country (the "birth of this nation")223 years ago and an increasingly interconnected global community that doesn't subscribe necessarily to that view? Just musing. Thanks for the reply!

C.

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#291921 - 06/16/09 05:18 PM Re: Obama's doing it again......... [Re: cstjude]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Jude,

But in our humble opinion we were the catalyst for swing in the tide of victory in both World Wars. Especially in the second.
The world is changing and the U.S. may need to adjusted it's view as well.

I hope we do.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#291924 - 06/16/09 05:41 PM Re: Obama's doing it again......... [Re: michael banks]
cstjude Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
I hope we all do.
For all our sakes.

C.

PS: Would love to debate the "catalyst" argument with you. smile But that is best left to another time and thread.

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#291929 - 06/16/09 05:58 PM Re: Obama's doing it again......... [Re: michael banks]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
My family growing up once hosted a British foreign exchange student from Nottingham, England, and for a time in my life I have had both British and Australian roommates. And all of them have just been amazed at the theory that America won WWII. It is true that our European and Russian allies suffered many more casualties than we did. In fact, just Russia's casualties were more than 10 times our casualties in the entire war. And without Russia on our side, there is no possible way short of atomic bombs that only the western allies could have defeated Germany. It is kind of funny when we talk about D-Day we only mention Omaha and Utah beaches, when Gold, Juno, and Sword beaches were as much a part of D-Day if not moreso. Now the Market Garden operation was mainly Monty's fault, though it was a bit of an ambitious plan and several critical facets of it went immediately wrong. It could also be argued that a critical component of our European war effort was in Lend-Lease, whereby we produced the weaponry then essentially sold it overseas. Remember the P-39 Aircobra fighter? Ninety percent of what we produced of that antiquated fighter was sold to the Russians, and they paid us in full for our contributions for their war effort ahead of our western allies too.

Yes, the victory in the Pacific was a much larger percentage our doing, with our war industries cranking-out hundreds of major ships and tens of thousands of aircraft during the war. While Japan tried very hard to keep up, and managed to complete more than several aircraft carriers and even a few aircraft-carrier/submarines toward the end of the war, their loss was most likely due to the loss of their cargo shipping which greatly restricted their access to raw materials and oil. Just like Germany, Japan had a critical shortage of fuel that could only be resolved by supply from afar. Certainly the bombing attacks by the B-29s hastened the Japanese loss, but their biggest problem was their lack of fuel and raw materials, followed by an increasing lack of seaborne transport capacity as the war wore on. Another issue that finally sunk Japan was the fact that we tried really hard to rescue our downed experienced pilots while Japan thought of their deaths as a glorious way to die for the Emporor, leaving them few experienced pilots toward the end of the war. This discrepancy became apparent in the Battle of the Philippine Sea, when their aircraft losses were more than 20 times our aircraft losses, and they lost 4 aircraft carriers to our losses of no major ships. Japan's huge losses at the Battle of Leyte Gulf came about because they had almost no air power left to protect them from the onslaught of ours from 6 Essex-class aircraft carriers and their experienced pilots. Certainly several of our destroyer crews fought valiantly there too. Japan lost 15 major capital ships of heavy cruiser size or larger in the combined battle at Leyte Gulf, including 4 of their last aircraft carriers and 3 battleships, to our loss of two escort carriers, one light carrier (Princeton), and several destroyers. After that the Japanese naval mission was mainly limited to hauling raw materials or ferrying troops, except for a couple of suicide missions that failed miserably.

So my guess is that we acquired our help or free the world beliefs mainly from somewhat slanted propaganda here at home, driven by our military accomplishments mainly in the Pacific. Our history about the European theater is decidedly slanted toward our sacrifices while overlooking the fact that the greatest personal sacrifices by far in the ETO were those experienced by our European allies and by Russia and her people. Our contribution in Europe was certainly helpful, but certainly not the deciding factor in terms of human cost.

Mark

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#291944 - 06/16/09 08:11 PM Re: Obama's doing it again......... [Re: Trucker51]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
melliferal? Are you suggesting that only formally schooled people are educated?


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#291952 - 06/16/09 08:37 PM Re: Obama's doing it again......... [Re: Hauser]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
Quote:
melliferal? Are you suggesting that only formally schooled people are educated?


alan, you're just makin up stuff now....c'mon bro LOL sorry i could'nt resist ........ whistle

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