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#290909 - 06/09/09 02:22 AM Maybe, he was NEVER that into you.
Julia Offline


Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 59
I feel as if I want to state something here, but I'm not sure how to go about it. I want to apologize now, I'm not meaning to offend anyone here but...... one's opinion, usually will.

Lately, it seems, many significant others have been posting about their men distancing or out right leaving. I understand the hurt and confusion this causes. The need to believe that they are/were loved, and if their man left..... it was difficult for their man to leave them. We post here, sometimes looking for some kind of closure because the breakups (almost always) are chaotic and confusing...... surprising and hurtful.

I am wondering if these men can leave because they never were in love to begin with. I've read and have been told, that men who have been sexually abused as a child don't know what love is, at least until they have several years of therapy. Maybe the back and forth.... come see me/stay away from me... I love you/I hate you.... isn't them struggling with how they feel about you but, them struggling with if they want to be alone. Period.

I don't know the path of every relationship of every person who posts here, but the SA man in my life pursued me relentlessly. He was real sure what he wanted and how he felt in the begining and even in the middle of our relationship. I know that everybody in a relationship brings their own baggage, I've put in my couch time. Maybe that is why I am starting to believe all the back and forth is a bunch of horseshit. The cheating , the internet, the lying the promises.... all ways to keep you stuck so they don't have to be alone... horseshit.

I want to say that for the men who take recovery seriously, I have nothing but respect for you. The men who are honest with their wives/girlfriends/lovers, who fight the dark and demons for their families.... you are true heroes.

Maybe what I want to state is..... If you have posted here looking for advice... for what it is worth, here's mine.
If you don't have children and your mate is doing the push-pull dance with you. He loves you and hates you. He cheats and lies to you. He promises not to do it again and then does it again....... LEAVE. Don't take it personal, don't feel guilty... don't feel, because he is doing everything he knows to do, not to feel. Chances are he isn't in any place he needs to be to start the recovery process. If he is saying he's needing you to leave him alone, that he'll only hurt you... believe him, he's probably already done a relationship deal breaker that you haven't found out about yet or, he's thinking about doing one.

Only my 2 cents.


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#290913 - 06/09/09 07:30 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Julia]
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
What she said!!!

There is a wonderful, wise book called "How to Break Your Addiction to a Person" by Howard M. Halpern.

Inside the book, you will find such insights as "The feeling of being in love does not mean you are in a love relationship....A love relationship requires two people. The feeling of being in love requires only one.... you may experience that you are alone in the relationship because the person you feel in love with is just not there, or is afraid of intimacy, or is involved with someone else. You may experience at times very powerful feelings of 'being in love' with someone like that, but it does take two people sharing their lives, usually with a sense of future, to qualify as a love relationship."

I will ALWAYS love my Survivor. But I have completely cut off the (non)-relationship. And you know what? He doesn't seem to mind in the least! Well, good for him! He can function to the best of his ability and remain untroubled by Real Life, Real Emotions, & a Real Woman. I wish him the best. But - what I wish for ME is a full life - AND - a real Love Relationship.

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#290923 - 06/09/09 09:04 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Julia]
honey girl Offline
Member

Registered: 10/09/06
Posts: 245
Loc: Midwest US
Dear Julia,

You wrote, "If he is saying he's needing you to leave him alone, that he'll only hurt you... believe him, he's probably already done a relationship deal breaker that you haven't found out about yet or, he's thinking about doing one."

I also think you are right. I definitely heard lots of messages from my SO about being a terrible person and that he didn't deserve me. He's right about that too--at least, I didn't deserve to be treated the way he treated me. The terrible person part? Underneath, I thought his true self was actually pretty splendid. "There must be a pony in here somewhere" was my belief, because I did see hints of it.

Did I fool myself to some extent? Undoubtedly. Was I a sucker for a hard-luck story? Probably. Would I do it again, knowing what I know now? I hope not.

Again and again we read posts here from people giving advice; I've given at least my fair share. Now what I'd like to say is: take off your rose-colored glasses, all you partners out there. Base your choices on what is real, supported by actions not by words. It's up to you to establish the ground rules that you have for being in a Love Relationship (nice, Kolisha!) DON'T SETTLE. Know that you always deserve to be treated with respect, consideration, and love.

Peace,
HG

_________________________
I'm just a poor wayfaring stranger, a million miles away from home.

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#290940 - 06/09/09 12:11 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: honey girl]
rainbow Offline


Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 28
i struggle with this question, too. on good days i believe my ex-guy deeply loved me but is really damaged, on bad days i think he is a sociopath who just victimized me...

i ended my relationship because i realized that ultimately i was an enabler by putting up with his raging/verbal abuse, running away, and potential cheating. my guy is not in recovery, if he was my decision would have been infinitely harder. i respect all the men who are working on their issues, and i have compassion for those who are not yet ready.

my ex-guy would tell me his bad behavior was not about me. and i believed him on one level but regardless it was highly destructive to both our relationship and me. and i also heard lots of messages from him about being a bad person and he was not good enough for me. but i also knew (and saw it) that he is a loving, sensitive, beautiful man.

i miss my guy immensely but i cannot imagine living that way again. as for him, sadly our breakup has not been a catalyst for him (not yet, anyway) but that just makes me feel even more confused. he lost someone he supposedly immensely loved but nothing seems to have changed for him.

love and peace,
rainbow




Edited by rainbow (09/30/09 12:24 AM)

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#290972 - 06/09/09 02:48 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: rainbow]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Julia,

You've said very succinctly something I as a survivor who's been there have tried to say in as inoffensive a way as possible any number of times on this forum. I've sensed that it might not be taken in the spirit I had intended had I stated it in the forthright way you did. Thanks for saying your piece.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#290988 - 06/09/09 07:07 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: WalkingSouth]
Julia Offline


Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 59
Kolisha,

I've read some of your other posts and I want to let you know that I like how you say things. You come across as a very compassionate, loving human being. You deserve a "Real Love Relationship". And if I'm accurate on the kind of person you are, all that passionate, loving nature of yours, would only be wasted on someone who isn't ready to feel. Someone who may even be triggered by your loving nature.... causing him to always push you away, and continually hurt you. You really do deserve someone who appreciates what you have to give and who will give it back in return.

Honey Girl,

Yep! Heard the whole, "I'm an awful person, you deserve better than me". After I caught him trying to phone sex my friend, he told me that he was, "trying to push me away", because he loved me so much that he was afraid. So, now that he has realized what he's doing, he should do what needs to be done to fix it..... least that's how I feel, but I guess he feels that there's no need to panic just yet. In my experience with him, he usually starts the pushing away, accompanied by the... "you deserve better", "I can't love you like you deserve" (wait, I thought I was the love of your life.... never loved anyone like you love me.... sound familiar HG? Just wondering). After this song and dance, I usually find something really disturbing he's done or is thinking of doing. All the.... "you deserve better" horseshit is keeping the door ajar on the way out, so if being alone isn't what he wants..... he can come back in. He is 40 years old, with children and a marriage, under his belt. Is it un-sympathetic for me to feel great compassion for the little boy he was and, less for the man who knows he hurts people and does nothing to stop it? I don't mean to imply this is what is going on with your SO, seems many of these men are inclined to the same behaviors. Peace is a hard find in these relationships, I wish it for you, too.

Rainbow,

Hi. Been awhile since I've had an honest to God, good day. Good days are as elusive to me as is, Lilliput and Lephercans. I know every CSA man is different. But, because of what happened to them, without help, they can't trust. Therefore, they aren't able to open themselves completely up to anyone. It keeps them closed off and hiding. Making "real" love impossible. Love requires being able to share even the broken parts of a person. It takes honesty and trust to have real intimacy and real love. Maybe the reason some or most of these men hide is because they are afraid they aren't worthy to be loved. They study and watch to see what you need and they become that, to be loved by you. This is something that would be tiresome for anyone, maybe that's why they can leave fairly easily. They never truly "let go" to love you. Might be why so many say, "I can't love you like you deserve" or "I'm not who you think I am, I am bad". I know it sucks, but it may be that they aren't able to be... "that into you". That all the HUGE DECLARTIONS of love, are something they know to say, to make us happy. I am not saying that they don't "hold us quite dear".... (a very wise,kind man, who is a moderator on this site, said that to me when I was hurting)..... But maybe it isn't the same love we hold for them. Not all victums of CSA stay in selfish user mode, like my friend. Again, I am only offering my observations in my relationship. I wish you nothing but the best of everything.

John,

You have stepped in and offered support to those who are hurting and you inspire other's by, leading by example. It is highly unlikely that you would ever offend anyone here. In fact, if he was half the man you are, I wouldn't have to be trashing him now! (Just a little joke) And John, you were the wise moderator who knew what to say to someone, who was hurting. At the time, it meant the world to me. Thank you.

Love to everyone,
Julia


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#291005 - 06/09/09 10:09 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Julia]
Lou Offline
Guest

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 100
I have not posted on this site in I can't even remember when! Tonight I opened up this post and read it in its entirety. A short time later I had to run out and while in my car I had Reba McIntyre's song, "When You Love Someone Like That" going on my CD player. For those of you who are not country western fans it goes something like this: "I think it was me, it must have been me, think I did something wrong". "When you love someone like that and you give what you can't take back." "When you love with all of your heart and soul, it's so hard to let it go".
"You followed your heart, you gave it your best, girl I can tell you he'll do the same thing to someone else, don't be so hard on yourself".

I listened to those words tonight like I had never listened to them before. I thought of all of you and also of where I too was more than a year ago now in my life. Thank God that with the help of counseling, my pastor and many, many loving family members and friends that I have come out on the other side. And the good news is that each and everyone of them have helped me to see, that yes, I gave it my best, that I did love with all of my heart and soul and the harsh reality of the whole thing is that I was with someone who was just not capable of giving me that back or who was not capable of displaying what I believe is of the utmost importance in having a healthy loving relationship, ie. respect, faithfulness, trustworthiness, honesty, integrity. I have learned that what I consider to be the ingredients for a healthy and lasting relationship is not out of order at all, but rather what the majority of loving, life long relationships are made of!

As Julia stated, one's opinion will and usually does offend someone, but I have to add to her post in that sometimes I believe, even if you do have children, that staying in an unhealthy situation for the sake of the children is not the best thing to do. Children learn by example.

Kolisha54, "But - what I wish for ME is a full life - AND - a real Love Relationship." I too wish this for me and also for all of the rest of you, as I truly do believe that we deserve it.
And because of my optimistic nature and my faith in God, I know that in HIS time, I will have a "real love relationship" to share my full life with.

HG "take off your rose-colored glasses, all you partners out there. Base your choices on what is real, supported by actions not by words. It's up to you to establish the ground rules that you have for being in a Love Relationship (nice, Kolisha!) DON'T SETTLE. Know that you always deserve to be treated with respect, consideration, and love." You go girl!!!!!!!!!! Amen, and don't any of us forget it! Actions speak louder than words! How many times have we all heard that in our lives, and then somehow or another, we seem to forget them, or think they aren't that important or that maybe we aren't worthy enough? Words are cheap!!!!!!

Rainbow, it is interesting that you brought up the word "Sociopath". One of my very best GF's gave me a book to read several months ago, "The Sociopath Next Door". Scarry! It is amazing how a sociopath can do things and feel no remorse! And how everything is always someone else's fault!

John, I have to agree with Julia. During the time that I was actively involved on this site, I always enjoyed reading your posts. It is apparent in your wisdom and in the manner in which you write that you truly do lead by example! And even though as you said, you tried to say what Julia has said in as an inoffensive way as possible, I certainly got the message on more than one occassion! :-) Thank you!

A big thank you to all of you for this post today! I appreciate all of your words of wisdom and strength! God surely does work in mysterious ways!

Love to everyone,
Lou



































Edited by Lou (06/10/09 06:52 AM)

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#291017 - 06/10/09 12:29 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Lou]
Julia Offline


Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 59
Dear Lou,
You are absolutely right. I should have been more clear on that. I understand that sometimes, women feel they need to stay in a marriage for their children's sake. I can't even imagine how difficult, it would be having children with the man I have recently been involved with. I didn't want to hand out advice on something I knew nothing about. I like you, had a lot of support when I divorced years ago. At the time of my divorce I had a child, but I was able to financially and emotionally, with the help of my exhusband, take care of myself and her. Everyone's situation is different and when children are involved, sometimes that situation is made all the more desperate.

Love,
Julia


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#291060 - 06/10/09 11:44 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Julia]
honey girl Offline
Member

Registered: 10/09/06
Posts: 245
Loc: Midwest US
Dear All,

This is a very nice conversation. I just took a look at that permanent post that we have up that the moderators posted, "Welcome to Family and Friends." That is a good compilation, but the tone is (obviously) different from this one.
Maybe we should have something permanent up along these lines too--the bottom-line truths that we have distilled from our experiences. Or would that be that too discouraging?

Peace,
HG

_________________________
I'm just a poor wayfaring stranger, a million miles away from home.

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#291123 - 06/10/09 09:07 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: honey girl]
Julia Offline


Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 59
Wow!!! What lunatic started this thread?

I wanted to apologize for the harshness of my tone..... I was having a moment. I still believe that it is best to leave when your in an emotionally abusive relationship and the offender won't seek help. I think partners in this predicament have a right to be mad as hell when treated badly. That sometimes, the only alternative is to get out of the relationship without second guessing themselves and without guilt.

I feel in the past, I let him and myself down, by excusing his bad behavior on what was done to him years ago. And in a way, I do understand and forgive him. But because he has had therapy off and on for the last 10 years, I know he understands that he will keep doing these same awful, destrucive hurts...... keeping himself and everyone who loves him, in a very bad place.

Our relationship, like so many other's here, has drastically changed in a short amount of time. I wonder if this angry, aggressive, cold, liar is the man he's always been, but hid it. Or, if my friend..... my best friend, my lover, my protector..... my most favorite person in this world, is lost somewhere in this body that rages and stomps on anything, or anyone in his path. Although he's never been physically violent, the things he says..... well, I haven't the words. There are times, I can feel a piece, of what he must have inside of him. And maybe for a moment, I am feeling what he means when he tells me that he's already dead.

The last time I saw him. I was crying. There isn't a betrayal a man could do to a woman, that he hasen't done to me. I have known him for almost, my entire life. Yet, when we parted ways, he looked through me like I was nothing.

People close to me, friends and family who don't know about his past, wonder why I have stayed with him for as long as I have. I have had my share of therapy, was even on prozac for awhile. I have read books and have worked on my own issues that I brought into this relationship. And it boils down to this...... I still love him.

After relationships with these men, maybe we adopt some of their surviving techniques. I have days filled with "moments". I get through them. Maybe I'm needing to be angry to stay strong. Maybe I can't afford to feel weak. I can't afford to let my defences down, because I can't allow myself to go back into that dark place with him. For now, I don't trust myself to "feel" for him, I need to distance, I need to leave. And maybe, someday when I feel safe, we can reconnect as friends.

I end my prayers, the same every night. I ask God to allow me to see the truth in all things. To have the courage to face it, the wisdom to know what to do with it, and the perserverance to see it through. Tonight, I will pray this for us all.

Love,
Julia


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#291138 - 06/10/09 11:04 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Julia]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Julia.

You go girl. nice to see the growth you have achieved.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#291176 - 06/11/09 07:48 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: michael banks]
riz Offline


Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 123
I haven't said anything, but I've been reading this thread every day. It amazes me that I could have made every one of those different posts on different days, depending on how I felt, what had happened, what I'd just finished reading...how much the thoughts and emotions fluctuate so that I begin to wonder if there is a real, solid person underneath all of it.

I like your last comment, Julia, how we end up with the same characteristics and defenses as the men, how I can get good and angy and cold to make sure I never get hurt...all the while knowing that underneath, my heart is open and bleeding and dying to get cut again by love.

I feel I've come so far. And then I feel I've not progressed at all.

love,
Riz


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#291601 - 06/14/09 08:04 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Julia]
Julia Offline


Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 59
Originally Posted By: michael banks
Julia,

If you know that you can not help him.
Why are you idly standing by and watching him self-destruct?
Do you still have a little glimmer of hope of what might could be?
Is that why you still talk to him?
Still allow him to cross your boundaries and giving him false (or real) hope.
How come you have not changed your phone #?
Be very careful that you do not allow yourself to be drawn in and get destroyed by him also.
Because it is oblivous that he has not yet hit his bottom.
Sexual addiction is a issue for alot of survivors, if not most.
I know that it has been for me.

Please take care of yourself.

Mike


Mike,

You gave me this advice, over 4 months ago. Survivor's who attempt helping us must see this happen often. I hope men like you and John (walkingsouth) don't get discouraged and stop giving advice because someone like me, who was lucky enough to stumble onto this website, didn't realize the gift she'd been given. I wish I would have taken your advice.

A person can go their whole life wondering if they ever make a difference in this world. I can tell you that everytime I come here to read and learn, when I see your name, I remember the help and the guidence you offered me. Although, at the time I didn't fully get what you were trying to tell me..... after going through it, it's crystal clear now. Maybe you don't realize how much you are appreciated. Everytime you respond to a post, going through what you have and knowing what you do, you make a difference to every person that you unselfishly reach out to. I want to sincerely thank you.

Love,
Julia


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#291605 - 06/14/09 08:32 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Julia]
Julia Offline


Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 59
Riz,

Not long ago I read a post of yours. You were responding to a woman who wondered if her husband had ever really loved her. I walked away having hope after reading what you wrote. We all have choices and I am choosing to believe...... for as much as he could, he loved me. In the middle of all the crazy, it is hard to believe that he even LIKED me, not alone LOVE me!

In retrospect, some of the things he said to me were so over-the-top, I doubt he could have truly meant them. He would be so ugly to me... and then apologize and try to make nice. I'd ask him if he wanted to be alone and he would say no. Then we'd be back to peas and carrots, and before long..... we'd be face to face with our next major meltdown.

He told me he hated me several times. At the end he asked me if I hated him. I told him no, that there was nothing I could say or do that could hurt him more than he hurts himself. I told him that the people he's hurt, will cry and hurt for awhile but, we eventually move on to love others. I told him he would always be left behind to hurt alone, if he didn't do something about it.

I have learned that a body, only has what's inside themselves to give. He has so much confusion...... anger and hatred, it was all he had to give to me. I do believe that there was a time he did love me. Your right, I didn't imagine it.

Love,
Julia


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#291758 - 06/15/09 08:06 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Julia]
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
Wow, I haven't been here for months and this is one of the first threads I read. Ladies...you're right, all of you. The relationships you are/were in were loving and wonderful at times but in the end, if the man in your life is broken and lacking the tools to make repairs, then it's impossible for the relationship not to rust and fall apart. Many men are not cable of love, or even intense like because of their childhoods, those men will tear you apart. Most of them would not do it intentionally, but observation of life, doesn't mean you are able to properly live it. Saying and doing the "right thing" just because you've seen it in a movie isn't a sustainable thing. Sooner or later, if the feelings aren't allowed to breathe, the wrong things will be done and the woman or man who had the misfortune to fall in love will be hurt.

If the man in your life is abusive, with his words or actions; if he makes you feel like less of a woman, less of a person, because of what he's done, then leaving is the only right action to take. It hurts like hell, but it's right for you and it's not your fault in any way shape or form. You would not be friends with someone who was toxic to you, why would you invite a toxic person into the most important parts of you? If two people can't mesh their way of life and core values with one another then it will NOT work. For those of you who have left such a toxic relationship and still hold your heads high I applaud you because I know that the decision to leave was one of the hardest of your life. I'd be willing to bet that nearly every man who has had the courage to come and post here understands that and sees his own past relationships with a clarity they may wish they didn't have. For as difficult as this thread is (I don't find it angry at all!) I'm confident that lots of the men and women here will be grateful they read it, although maybe not right away. The truest words are sometimes the hards to hear.

Now, Pollyanna will speak......I've been in a relationship with a survivor for almost 8 years. The first 4 were a disaster, but I didn't know it until I was 4 years in. I almost walked away, but circumstances didn't allow that. Things have not been easy since then and we've definately hit some bumps (please note the dripping sarcasm!) but he's been in therapy on a sometimes weekly, sometimes bi-monthly basis ever since. He's been given the out by me and his T to stop but knows full well that for as painful as it is, it's the only way through.

He still tells me he can't feel with the intensity I do, for anything, not just me; he still tells me he's afraid; he still tells me he thinks he's meant to be alone. The difference, I think, is that while he tells me these things, he also tells me he doesn't WANT them. He will always be different from me in the way he approaches life, he'll always be wary of strangers and friends alike, he'll always think things and see things that I won't, but he doesn't WANT to. He wants peace; he wants love; he wants easy laughter; he wants a life free of nightmares and he's fighting for that with everything he's got.

This site got me through the worst time of my life. I still come here occasionally to read and take solace in knowing that it's here, many friends are here too. Julia, thank you for starting a great thread and thanks to everyone who contributed with wisdom and compassion on a very difficult and tender subject.

Trish

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#292024 - 06/17/09 04:16 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Trish4850]
Julia Offline


Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 59

Dear Trish,


Had wondered where you were. I enjoy reading what you have to say because, I believe you are the flip side of the coin (least in me and my boyfriend's case). You don't sound "Pollyanna" at all. The paragraph above, the one where your boyfriend explains how he feels, is inspiring. Not only for the women/men who love men who were SA, but also for the SA men who are looking for hope and inspiration.

Hell, maybe it is Pollyanna-ish but, who cares?....... I've always loved a story with a happy ending!

Love,
Julia


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#292689 - 06/23/09 12:57 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Julia]
Brokenhearted Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 644
Loc: TX
Well, I haven't been here for a very long time now, and I just thought I'd peek at F&F to see what's going on.

I don't know what to say except that it all makes me sad. In case some of you don't know me, I've been married to a survivor for nearly 17 yrs now, but didn't know it until about 2006. I've been through hell with betrayals, etc., my own counseling, antidepressants, and incessant reading on the topic. Also we have a child.

What makes me sad, I think, the most is that I now know, though my own counseling, that I've never felt valued, my whole life, starting with my own family. Intentional or not, there was abuse, physical and mental, but mostly mental. Constant invalidation, etc. I was raised learning that I didn't deserve much. And this is why I am still with my H.

I do believe I love him, but I'm not sure why at times. I mean, when you think about it, or write down the reasons, there aren't many after what he's put me through. My emotional world is so detached from reality, I'm afraid sometimes.

I went off my antidepressant about a month ago, cold turkey. I konw you're not supposed to, but it's a financial issue too. I had some nausea, etc., for a while, but really don't feel much different.

I'm sad because I don't think I will ever be able to change my internal belief that I don't deserve to be cherished, loved, respected, pampered, etc. So I ask myself, who does deserve all that, and why? That's where I get stuck. I truly don't know the answer. I only know what I believe about myself, and vaguely that I believe it because I was taught it, not necessarily because it is true, but that's about as far as I get.

I'm sad that I can't seem to change my thinking about myself. If I could, maybe a new life is waiting out there for me. But maybe this much is different: At least nowadays I'm sad for ME and not just for my survivor.

So can anyone tell me what is next? Has anyone here gotten to the point of feeling sad for themselves after perhaps realizing why they're in a one-way relationship to begin with, and then gone on to yet more changes because of such insights?

What would it have been like to have been raised by attentive, loving, compassionate, concerned parents, and to have developed a strong self-esteem and feeling of safety because of it? I can only imagine it would feel like heaven to have gotten to live so long in such a state.

I envy happy people; I envy loved people who can believe and feel that love.

Sigh.

_________________________
Brokenhearted

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luke 17:2

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#292719 - 06/23/09 09:49 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Brokenhearted]
sweet-n-sour Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/06
Posts: 409
Loc: chicago
Dear Brokenhearted:

Hi. I was just wondering (depending on where you live and how much sunlight you have year round) if you have thought to have your vitamin D level checked? Sometimes a vitamin deficiency as such can have more of an impact than we realize.

My physician was ready to write a>


Edited by sweet-n-sour (06/23/09 09:51 AM)
_________________________
"As long as he continues to try, I will meet him in that determination and commitment."

cm 2007

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#292726 - 06/23/09 11:19 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: sweet-n-sour]
Brokenhearted Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 644
Loc: TX
S-n-S,

Hmm, thanks -- I never knew that a vitamin def. could cause one such troubles. I do take a vitamin every night, but maybe I will try taking, in addition to it, extra Vit. D. I might make an appt for my dr also........money is just so darn tight right now. (We are trying to pay off an astronomical amount of credit card debt and it may take 2-3 yrs).

I've lately been trying to figure things out, like about why it feels so good to shop, even though we can't afford it. I recently heard a shrink put it this way, "We think this way: If I were financially secure, I would go shopping. Therefore, if I go shopping, I must be financially secure."

All my life I've been insecure and that includes financially (my parents had large debts and they shared their stress with us kids).

Anyway, I really appreciate your suggestion.....

_________________________
Brokenhearted

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luke 17:2

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#292744 - 06/23/09 01:43 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Brokenhearted]
PatchworkMama Offline


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 54
Loc: Iowa
Wow.

Okay I admit it. I saw this thread in the F&F and because of the title was afraid to read. I didn't want to hear that perhaps my husband was 'NEVER that into me.' I wanted to avoid what may be the truth. I wanted to hang onto hope.

Nhere I sit wondering if my husband will ever be 'straight' with me. Hoping, praying that he will. And on the other hand knowing if he does want to be 'straight' with me it may even be harder than the alternative.

What you wrote, all of you, it hit home. I know exactly what you are feeling and it is amazing that even though we have different survivors for husbands, different kinds of abuse, different families, many of us have the same experience. Ditto to all you said.

I never thought I may be hurting him or preventing him from traveling down of recovery by being there for him, loving him, pulling him out of nightmares, getting him back into bed after a night terror. I think it is interesting that someone said that your love and patience might even be triggering for him. Wow. Scarey.

Oh man its going to be a difficult 10 days. Especially with 4 kids, a house and a job to hold down.


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#292813 - 06/24/09 04:31 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: PatchworkMama]
Julia Offline


Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 59
Hi. I am the someone who said that love could be a trigger. Is your husband in recovery? The man I was involved with is not. He started to have memories of his abuse and his issues were/still are, in full swing. He had started therapy and a Male Survivor group but after a short while, he stopped attending both.

We did a lot of the push and pull. He started drinking on his days off. Although a drunk is hardly reliable, it was when he would open up and talk. For instance, after I found out about (after weeks of lying and denying) another woman, we had a huge fight..... understandably. Eventually he called, he was drunk. He told me that he didn't mean to hurt me. That if he had told me the truth about her, I wouldn't see him anymore. He said that he didn't want to "feel". That he was doing me a favor by keeping me out of that mess. He told me that he knew he was pushing and pulling, but he had feelings for me and having feelings is not what he wanted.......... Yeah. What???

It has always been the same with him, even before his new memories started....... we've only been able to get so close and then he would sabotoge. Seems the more love, trust, and encouragement I gave him, the more he'd need to distance. I felt like I was John Dunbar coaxing two socks with a big old piece of beef jerky (Dances with Wolves). You know the movie? I felt he had a mental battle going on. Maybe he wanted a relationship but at the same time, because he doesn't trust, somehow, by being in a relationship with me..... it made him miserable? Or. Maybe, he was battling, not how he felt about me but, if he wanted to be alone or not, period? To be fair, I am a bit on the dramatic side. I also make HUGE DECLARATIONS of love. In the begining, maybe someone like me might attract someone who isn't sure what love is but would really like to know. But when he started spinning, I guess I can see where I may have seemed threatening to him, especially when (depending on the day) he doesn't want to feel.

After a lot of analyzing and wondering what or how he felt/feels, if he ever was "that into me"...... I've come to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because he isn't ready to face what hurts and scares him. And who am I to tell him to let go of the techniques that saved him when he was a little boy? I can't fight him anymore, he made a choice to stop therapy. We all get a choice on who and how we love. I could cheat myself out of affection and respect. I could accept what little attention (by my standards) that he is willing to give. I could overlook the verbal abuse but that wouldn't be being true to myself, would it?

Patchwork, with all my heart, I hope your husband, your family..... works towards and finds, healthy and happy.

Love,
Julia


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#292817 - 06/24/09 06:42 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Julia]
riz Offline


Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 123
Right. I naively thought that what you do for a person who has been hurt is offer him love. But it doesn't work if that person has been badly hurt by others who offered him love. Love, its intensity, and the feelings of confusion that come with it can just be too overwhelming.

And yes, in the end you can drive yourself crazy trying to figure out if he loved you or not (look at the amount of participation in this thread!). But there's no way to know if he "loved" you. He uses a whole different thought process...and feeling process.

Good post, Julia.

Riz


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#292818 - 06/24/09 07:34 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: riz]
sweet-n-sour Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/06
Posts: 409
Loc: chicago
Yes, good post Julia and a good response riz.

I've been on the verge of some really great realizations lately. One thing that comes to mind (after losing my father this past winter) is that when we grieve, we often elevate the lost relationship to be much more than it actually was. The thing is, we go into relationships under the assumption that what we are giving is exactly what is being offered in return...that there is an equal balance to it. Of course there is a harsh reality check when we realize the push-pull thing happening with the survivor in our lives.

The best any of us can do is deal with the hands we are dealt, move forward but learn and grow from this and every experience we have.

We can make ourselves crazy by wondering "was he really that into me" when I believe the real question many should be asking, is why does it matter so much? I mean no disrespect here but why did we end up in such a relationship to begin with?

For me, this was a good opportunity to face my co-dependency issues and work through them. For others there may be other issues to visit. I'm not pretending to know any answers but I think within this complex situation we find ourselves in there are always more questions.

S-n-S

_________________________
"As long as he continues to try, I will meet him in that determination and commitment."

cm 2007

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#292851 - 06/24/09 01:54 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: riz]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Originally Posted By: riz
And yes, in the end you can drive yourself crazy trying to figure out if he loved you or not (look at the amount of participation in this thread!). But there's no way to know if he "loved" you. He uses a whole different thought process...and feeling process.


in fact every living person filters their concept of love through their experiences, particularly those experiences of their formative years.

My wife filters hers through her experience in a home where chaos reigned and loving attention was never given. I filter mine through not only the sexual abuse events outside the home bur to a great extent a home where love and tenderness reigned one hour and physical and emotional abuse reigned the next.

Then whe we mature and marry is it any wonder we discover that we don't begin to understand one another? This thing called love takes a lot of Attention and hard work under the best of conditions and here we are struggling along as survivors.

Th positive part of it is that when and if we get it figured out our relationships have even greatr potential for success and Lon term happiness than perhaps those who have not worn our shoes?

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#292940 - 06/24/09 11:50 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: WalkingSouth]
PatchworkMama Offline


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 54
Loc: Iowa
Julia:
Yes my husband is in therapy. Is he in recovery? How can a man be in recovery when he is so busy filling his life with relationships and declarations of love? When he's so busy putting bandaids on everyone's problems instead of dealing with his own? Its an addiction, its an escape and it covers up the pain.

How can I tell him that it is the pain he needs to feel to be whole again. To heal? Does anyone really run to a shot when they are not damn sure its going to heal them?

SNS:
I hear ya. I have done a lot of work on healing myself and dealing with my own codependancy. In a way all of this is a blessing, a chance to finally concentrate on myself. Fix the things wrong with me. I'll be a better wife for my husband should he choose to come back, but ultimately I'll be a better person and that makes all the difference.



Its all about choices and the choice is his.

Riz:
Is love even really a part of it? The feeling of love waxes and wanes. Comes and goes depending on how well things are going. The commitment to love lasts a whole lot longer and is not dependant on feeling. Anyway, that's not an attack, just my perception of the idea.


walking south:
You said "The positive part of it is that when and if we get it figured out our relationships have even greater potential for success and long term happiness than perhaps those who have not worn our shoes?"

So true. We have to go the distance to feel the long term happiness, don't we? All of this is a chance to learn, a chance to re-examine ourselves, and approach everything with a fresh perspective.

Thank you all!


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#293014 - 06/25/09 02:05 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: PatchworkMama]
DJsport Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1742
Hi, All.

I have been watching this thread and pondering what I would say.

I am same-sex oriented male in my mid-forties. I am more happy with myself than ever before in my life.

I took small steps in my "recovery" during the last 20 years. I was aware of the same-sex attractions before the "abuse". The abuse can cause confusion with orientation but, homophobia also has affects.

I was married in my early 20's. When my ex-wife discovered my same-sex attractions she wanted to why I had same-sex attractions. I told her about the "experiencs". She listened for a bit (1 month) but, at the end of the month I told her I needed to leave and was NOT being honest by being in the marriage. She and I both agreed that being honest was best even if there were devasting "issues" to address. She was/is a wonderful woman who wanted answers but, I could not give her the answers.

The message I had to deliver or tell her was I was NOT into her. I was wrong for involving her in a sexual relationship that I was NOT fully participating in. I was full of shame but, in all honesty I could NOT expect her to participate in the lie anymore.

I realized 4 years ago (16 years after the divorce) that I was abused. These events are separate from the desire/orientation I have. As she told me, I needed to own my entire self even my thoughts.

My beliefs is: We as adults need to fully autonomous as individuals. If there are issues as adults we are responsible to solve our own issues. We need to ask for help. Others might want to help but, no one else can live for us.

I hope sharing my experience will be informative.

I wish all of you the serenity we all deserve.

Peace,
DJ

_________________________
Live to your fullest potential

Never make someone a priority if your only an option

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#293020 - 06/25/09 03:51 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: DJsport]
sweet-n-sour Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/06
Posts: 409
Loc: chicago
Dear DJsport:

My initial reaction to your post was the most respectful nod in agreement. I truly admire your strength and honesty with your wife. Living a lie is no way to live.

I'm betting that she is thankful present day for your courage as well...to divorce and move on. I personally can not imagine living the rest of my life with someone who is not really "with" me but checking out other people who are next to me. It's like going on a date with someone that you just barely like as opposed to being passionate about who you are with. A huge difference.

I've come to realize that I have been guilty of judging many of the relationships (I say many I mean on a variety of degrees...my marriage to D, relationships with my friends and my siblings) based on my perceptions of the world (..and assuming they have the same outlook) instead of realizing that we all come from a different place and are quirky because of our unique experiences.

I think once a person realizes this, the rest is much easier to comprehend. It isn't so much that "he was never that into you.." it is more so, he is looking for something that I can never be for him but also, he can never be what I need him to be to meet my needs either.

Remaining glued out of obligation or fear is no real reason to be stuck...I must ask, is it really living anyway?

S-n-S



Originally Posted By: DJsport
Hi, All.

I have been watching this thread and pondering what I would say.

I am same-sex oriented male in my mid-forties. I am more happy with myself than ever before in my life.

I took small steps in my "recovery" during the last 20 years. I was aware of the same-sex attractions before the "abuse". The abuse can cause confusion with orientation but, homophobia also has affects.

I was married in my early 20's. When my ex-wife discovered my same-sex attractions she wanted to why I had same-sex attractions. I told her about the "experiencs". She listened for a bit (1 month) but, at the end of the month I told her I needed to leave and was NOT being honest by being in the marriage. She and I both agreed that being honest was best even if there were devasting "issues" to address. She was/is a wonderful woman who wanted answers but, I could not give her the answers.

The message I had to deliver or tell her was I was NOT into her. I was wrong for involving her in a sexual relationship that I was NOT fully participating in. I was full of shame but, in all honesty I could NOT expect her to participate in the lie anymore.

I realized 4 years ago (16 years after the divorce) that I was abused. These events are separate from the desire/orientation I have. As she told me, I needed to own my entire self even my thoughts.

My beliefs is: We as adults need to fully autonomous as individuals. If there are issues as adults we are responsible to solve our own issues. We need to ask for help. Others might want to help but, no one else can live for us.

I hope sharing my experience will be informative.

I wish all of you the serenity we all deserve.

Peace,
DJ


_________________________
"As long as he continues to try, I will meet him in that determination and commitment."

cm 2007

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#293115 - 06/26/09 03:23 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: sweet-n-sour]
Julia Offline


Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 59
Dear DJsport,

Do you think that subconsciously you wanted your wife to discover your same-sex attractions? Was it a relief for you? Had you tried telling her.... maybe hinted to it? And one more question, not that you would know, but..... do you think it's common for a homosexual man, to have homosexual biological brothers? Particularly, a sexually abused, homosexual man?

I apologize for being so blunt and intrusive. It's just that you were kind and brave enough to post in this thread...... maybe you wouldn't mind a few questions?

Love,
Julia


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#293164 - 06/26/09 11:03 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Julia]
DJsport Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1742
Hi, Julia.

Yes, after awhile I wanted others to know including my ex-wife of my same-sex attractions.

I was relieved when we had the "talk"

I did tell her before we were married but, she confessed after the divorce that she thought she could change me.

It is NOT common for there to be siblings who are gay in the same family but it does happen. There is confusion about sexual orientation when there is abuse for all. But, I am not a professional so, my words are from knowing others in the community personally.

Peace,
DJ

_________________________
Live to your fullest potential

Never make someone a priority if your only an option

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