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#290909 - 06/09/09 02:22 AM Maybe, he was NEVER that into you.
Julia Offline


Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 59
I feel as if I want to state something here, but I'm not sure how to go about it. I want to apologize now, I'm not meaning to offend anyone here but...... one's opinion, usually will.

Lately, it seems, many significant others have been posting about their men distancing or out right leaving. I understand the hurt and confusion this causes. The need to believe that they are/were loved, and if their man left..... it was difficult for their man to leave them. We post here, sometimes looking for some kind of closure because the breakups (almost always) are chaotic and confusing...... surprising and hurtful.

I am wondering if these men can leave because they never were in love to begin with. I've read and have been told, that men who have been sexually abused as a child don't know what love is, at least until they have several years of therapy. Maybe the back and forth.... come see me/stay away from me... I love you/I hate you.... isn't them struggling with how they feel about you but, them struggling with if they want to be alone. Period.

I don't know the path of every relationship of every person who posts here, but the SA man in my life pursued me relentlessly. He was real sure what he wanted and how he felt in the begining and even in the middle of our relationship. I know that everybody in a relationship brings their own baggage, I've put in my couch time. Maybe that is why I am starting to believe all the back and forth is a bunch of horseshit. The cheating , the internet, the lying the promises.... all ways to keep you stuck so they don't have to be alone... horseshit.

I want to say that for the men who take recovery seriously, I have nothing but respect for you. The men who are honest with their wives/girlfriends/lovers, who fight the dark and demons for their families.... you are true heroes.

Maybe what I want to state is..... If you have posted here looking for advice... for what it is worth, here's mine.
If you don't have children and your mate is doing the push-pull dance with you. He loves you and hates you. He cheats and lies to you. He promises not to do it again and then does it again....... LEAVE. Don't take it personal, don't feel guilty... don't feel, because he is doing everything he knows to do, not to feel. Chances are he isn't in any place he needs to be to start the recovery process. If he is saying he's needing you to leave him alone, that he'll only hurt you... believe him, he's probably already done a relationship deal breaker that you haven't found out about yet or, he's thinking about doing one.

Only my 2 cents.


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#290913 - 06/09/09 07:30 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Julia]
kolisha54 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 475
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
What she said!!!

There is a wonderful, wise book called "How to Break Your Addiction to a Person" by Howard M. Halpern.

Inside the book, you will find such insights as "The feeling of being in love does not mean you are in a love relationship....A love relationship requires two people. The feeling of being in love requires only one.... you may experience that you are alone in the relationship because the person you feel in love with is just not there, or is afraid of intimacy, or is involved with someone else. You may experience at times very powerful feelings of 'being in love' with someone like that, but it does take two people sharing their lives, usually with a sense of future, to qualify as a love relationship."

I will ALWAYS love my Survivor. But I have completely cut off the (non)-relationship. And you know what? He doesn't seem to mind in the least! Well, good for him! He can function to the best of his ability and remain untroubled by Real Life, Real Emotions, & a Real Woman. I wish him the best. But - what I wish for ME is a full life - AND - a real Love Relationship.

_________________________
If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? If not now... when? --Hillel

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#290923 - 06/09/09 09:04 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Julia]
honey girl Offline
Member

Registered: 10/09/06
Posts: 245
Loc: Midwest US
Dear Julia,

You wrote, "If he is saying he's needing you to leave him alone, that he'll only hurt you... believe him, he's probably already done a relationship deal breaker that you haven't found out about yet or, he's thinking about doing one."

I also think you are right. I definitely heard lots of messages from my SO about being a terrible person and that he didn't deserve me. He's right about that too--at least, I didn't deserve to be treated the way he treated me. The terrible person part? Underneath, I thought his true self was actually pretty splendid. "There must be a pony in here somewhere" was my belief, because I did see hints of it.

Did I fool myself to some extent? Undoubtedly. Was I a sucker for a hard-luck story? Probably. Would I do it again, knowing what I know now? I hope not.

Again and again we read posts here from people giving advice; I've given at least my fair share. Now what I'd like to say is: take off your rose-colored glasses, all you partners out there. Base your choices on what is real, supported by actions not by words. It's up to you to establish the ground rules that you have for being in a Love Relationship (nice, Kolisha!) DON'T SETTLE. Know that you always deserve to be treated with respect, consideration, and love.

Peace,
HG

_________________________
I'm just a poor wayfaring stranger, a million miles away from home.

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#290940 - 06/09/09 12:11 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: honey girl]
rainbow Offline


Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 28
i struggle with this question, too. on good days i believe my ex-guy deeply loved me but is really damaged, on bad days i think he is a sociopath who just victimized me...

i ended my relationship because i realized that ultimately i was an enabler by putting up with his raging/verbal abuse, running away, and potential cheating. my guy is not in recovery, if he was my decision would have been infinitely harder. i respect all the men who are working on their issues, and i have compassion for those who are not yet ready.

my ex-guy would tell me his bad behavior was not about me. and i believed him on one level but regardless it was highly destructive to both our relationship and me. and i also heard lots of messages from him about being a bad person and he was not good enough for me. but i also knew (and saw it) that he is a loving, sensitive, beautiful man.

i miss my guy immensely but i cannot imagine living that way again. as for him, sadly our breakup has not been a catalyst for him (not yet, anyway) but that just makes me feel even more confused. he lost someone he supposedly immensely loved but nothing seems to have changed for him.

love and peace,
rainbow




Edited by rainbow (09/30/09 12:24 AM)

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#290972 - 06/09/09 02:48 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: rainbow]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Julia,

You've said very succinctly something I as a survivor who's been there have tried to say in as inoffensive a way as possible any number of times on this forum. I've sensed that it might not be taken in the spirit I had intended had I stated it in the forthright way you did. Thanks for saying your piece.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#290988 - 06/09/09 07:07 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: WalkingSouth]
Julia Offline


Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 59
Kolisha,

I've read some of your other posts and I want to let you know that I like how you say things. You come across as a very compassionate, loving human being. You deserve a "Real Love Relationship". And if I'm accurate on the kind of person you are, all that passionate, loving nature of yours, would only be wasted on someone who isn't ready to feel. Someone who may even be triggered by your loving nature.... causing him to always push you away, and continually hurt you. You really do deserve someone who appreciates what you have to give and who will give it back in return.

Honey Girl,

Yep! Heard the whole, "I'm an awful person, you deserve better than me". After I caught him trying to phone sex my friend, he told me that he was, "trying to push me away", because he loved me so much that he was afraid. So, now that he has realized what he's doing, he should do what needs to be done to fix it..... least that's how I feel, but I guess he feels that there's no need to panic just yet. In my experience with him, he usually starts the pushing away, accompanied by the... "you deserve better", "I can't love you like you deserve" (wait, I thought I was the love of your life.... never loved anyone like you love me.... sound familiar HG? Just wondering). After this song and dance, I usually find something really disturbing he's done or is thinking of doing. All the.... "you deserve better" horseshit is keeping the door ajar on the way out, so if being alone isn't what he wants..... he can come back in. He is 40 years old, with children and a marriage, under his belt. Is it un-sympathetic for me to feel great compassion for the little boy he was and, less for the man who knows he hurts people and does nothing to stop it? I don't mean to imply this is what is going on with your SO, seems many of these men are inclined to the same behaviors. Peace is a hard find in these relationships, I wish it for you, too.

Rainbow,

Hi. Been awhile since I've had an honest to God, good day. Good days are as elusive to me as is, Lilliput and Lephercans. I know every CSA man is different. But, because of what happened to them, without help, they can't trust. Therefore, they aren't able to open themselves completely up to anyone. It keeps them closed off and hiding. Making "real" love impossible. Love requires being able to share even the broken parts of a person. It takes honesty and trust to have real intimacy and real love. Maybe the reason some or most of these men hide is because they are afraid they aren't worthy to be loved. They study and watch to see what you need and they become that, to be loved by you. This is something that would be tiresome for anyone, maybe that's why they can leave fairly easily. They never truly "let go" to love you. Might be why so many say, "I can't love you like you deserve" or "I'm not who you think I am, I am bad". I know it sucks, but it may be that they aren't able to be... "that into you". That all the HUGE DECLARTIONS of love, are something they know to say, to make us happy. I am not saying that they don't "hold us quite dear".... (a very wise,kind man, who is a moderator on this site, said that to me when I was hurting)..... But maybe it isn't the same love we hold for them. Not all victums of CSA stay in selfish user mode, like my friend. Again, I am only offering my observations in my relationship. I wish you nothing but the best of everything.

John,

You have stepped in and offered support to those who are hurting and you inspire other's by, leading by example. It is highly unlikely that you would ever offend anyone here. In fact, if he was half the man you are, I wouldn't have to be trashing him now! (Just a little joke) And John, you were the wise moderator who knew what to say to someone, who was hurting. At the time, it meant the world to me. Thank you.

Love to everyone,
Julia


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#291005 - 06/09/09 10:09 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Julia]
Lou Offline
Guest

Registered: 11/10/07
Posts: 100
I have not posted on this site in I can't even remember when! Tonight I opened up this post and read it in its entirety. A short time later I had to run out and while in my car I had Reba McIntyre's song, "When You Love Someone Like That" going on my CD player. For those of you who are not country western fans it goes something like this: "I think it was me, it must have been me, think I did something wrong". "When you love someone like that and you give what you can't take back." "When you love with all of your heart and soul, it's so hard to let it go".
"You followed your heart, you gave it your best, girl I can tell you he'll do the same thing to someone else, don't be so hard on yourself".

I listened to those words tonight like I had never listened to them before. I thought of all of you and also of where I too was more than a year ago now in my life. Thank God that with the help of counseling, my pastor and many, many loving family members and friends that I have come out on the other side. And the good news is that each and everyone of them have helped me to see, that yes, I gave it my best, that I did love with all of my heart and soul and the harsh reality of the whole thing is that I was with someone who was just not capable of giving me that back or who was not capable of displaying what I believe is of the utmost importance in having a healthy loving relationship, ie. respect, faithfulness, trustworthiness, honesty, integrity. I have learned that what I consider to be the ingredients for a healthy and lasting relationship is not out of order at all, but rather what the majority of loving, life long relationships are made of!

As Julia stated, one's opinion will and usually does offend someone, but I have to add to her post in that sometimes I believe, even if you do have children, that staying in an unhealthy situation for the sake of the children is not the best thing to do. Children learn by example.

Kolisha54, "But - what I wish for ME is a full life - AND - a real Love Relationship." I too wish this for me and also for all of the rest of you, as I truly do believe that we deserve it.
And because of my optimistic nature and my faith in God, I know that in HIS time, I will have a "real love relationship" to share my full life with.

HG "take off your rose-colored glasses, all you partners out there. Base your choices on what is real, supported by actions not by words. It's up to you to establish the ground rules that you have for being in a Love Relationship (nice, Kolisha!) DON'T SETTLE. Know that you always deserve to be treated with respect, consideration, and love." You go girl!!!!!!!!!! Amen, and don't any of us forget it! Actions speak louder than words! How many times have we all heard that in our lives, and then somehow or another, we seem to forget them, or think they aren't that important or that maybe we aren't worthy enough? Words are cheap!!!!!!

Rainbow, it is interesting that you brought up the word "Sociopath". One of my very best GF's gave me a book to read several months ago, "The Sociopath Next Door". Scarry! It is amazing how a sociopath can do things and feel no remorse! And how everything is always someone else's fault!

John, I have to agree with Julia. During the time that I was actively involved on this site, I always enjoyed reading your posts. It is apparent in your wisdom and in the manner in which you write that you truly do lead by example! And even though as you said, you tried to say what Julia has said in as an inoffensive way as possible, I certainly got the message on more than one occassion! :-) Thank you!

A big thank you to all of you for this post today! I appreciate all of your words of wisdom and strength! God surely does work in mysterious ways!

Love to everyone,
Lou



































Edited by Lou (06/10/09 06:52 AM)

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#291017 - 06/10/09 12:29 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Lou]
Julia Offline


Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 59
Dear Lou,
You are absolutely right. I should have been more clear on that. I understand that sometimes, women feel they need to stay in a marriage for their children's sake. I can't even imagine how difficult, it would be having children with the man I have recently been involved with. I didn't want to hand out advice on something I knew nothing about. I like you, had a lot of support when I divorced years ago. At the time of my divorce I had a child, but I was able to financially and emotionally, with the help of my exhusband, take care of myself and her. Everyone's situation is different and when children are involved, sometimes that situation is made all the more desperate.

Love,
Julia


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#291060 - 06/10/09 11:44 AM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: Julia]
honey girl Offline
Member

Registered: 10/09/06
Posts: 245
Loc: Midwest US
Dear All,

This is a very nice conversation. I just took a look at that permanent post that we have up that the moderators posted, "Welcome to Family and Friends." That is a good compilation, but the tone is (obviously) different from this one.
Maybe we should have something permanent up along these lines too--the bottom-line truths that we have distilled from our experiences. Or would that be that too discouraging?

Peace,
HG

_________________________
I'm just a poor wayfaring stranger, a million miles away from home.

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#291123 - 06/10/09 09:07 PM Re: Maybe, he was NEVER that into you. [Re: honey girl]
Julia Offline


Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 59
Wow!!! What lunatic started this thread?

I wanted to apologize for the harshness of my tone..... I was having a moment. I still believe that it is best to leave when your in an emotionally abusive relationship and the offender won't seek help. I think partners in this predicament have a right to be mad as hell when treated badly. That sometimes, the only alternative is to get out of the relationship without second guessing themselves and without guilt.

I feel in the past, I let him and myself down, by excusing his bad behavior on what was done to him years ago. And in a way, I do understand and forgive him. But because he has had therapy off and on for the last 10 years, I know he understands that he will keep doing these same awful, destrucive hurts...... keeping himself and everyone who loves him, in a very bad place.

Our relationship, like so many other's here, has drastically changed in a short amount of time. I wonder if this angry, aggressive, cold, liar is the man he's always been, but hid it. Or, if my friend..... my best friend, my lover, my protector..... my most favorite person in this world, is lost somewhere in this body that rages and stomps on anything, or anyone in his path. Although he's never been physically violent, the things he says..... well, I haven't the words. There are times, I can feel a piece, of what he must have inside of him. And maybe for a moment, I am feeling what he means when he tells me that he's already dead.

The last time I saw him. I was crying. There isn't a betrayal a man could do to a woman, that he hasen't done to me. I have known him for almost, my entire life. Yet, when we parted ways, he looked through me like I was nothing.

People close to me, friends and family who don't know about his past, wonder why I have stayed with him for as long as I have. I have had my share of therapy, was even on prozac for awhile. I have read books and have worked on my own issues that I brought into this relationship. And it boils down to this...... I still love him.

After relationships with these men, maybe we adopt some of their surviving techniques. I have days filled with "moments". I get through them. Maybe I'm needing to be angry to stay strong. Maybe I can't afford to feel weak. I can't afford to let my defences down, because I can't allow myself to go back into that dark place with him. For now, I don't trust myself to "feel" for him, I need to distance, I need to leave. And maybe, someday when I feel safe, we can reconnect as friends.

I end my prayers, the same every night. I ask God to allow me to see the truth in all things. To have the courage to face it, the wisdom to know what to do with it, and the perserverance to see it through. Tonight, I will pray this for us all.

Love,
Julia


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