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#287991 - 05/18/09 11:23 PM Sexual Assault at Work
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
I just need to get this off my chest so I hope it isn't upsetting to others if I share this.

For those who aren't aware I work in a homeless shelter. Tonight an intoxicated male exposed himself to a female staff memember and began masturbating in front of her, which in the country I'm from is considered sexual assault according to the criminal code. The staff memeber involved notified our manager of this person's behaviour, stressing that he should be barred from recieving services until further notice. (It should also be noted that the client in question has a history of sexually innappropriate behaviour toward female staff, some of it recent). The manager, however, tried to dismiss it, saying that everyone deserves a second, 3rd chance, etc. This immediately got my back up since I believe when it comes to sexual offences once chance is more than enough. Anyways I called our manager on this, who responded by saying that he didn't like my tone, etc, despite that I was more than professional with him. In the end I went above his head and encouraged the victim, the female staff member, to contact the police, which she did, resulting in charges be laid against the offending client. I feel good about this but at the same time am I personalizing things, given my sa history? On the surface I don't believe so but underneath I can help but question myself. Either way the right thing was done in the end so I suppose I should remember that. My next battle is going to my manager's superiors concerning how poorly he handled things since I feel strongly that this lack of action can't happen again. Wish me luck with that. JS

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Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#287994 - 05/18/09 11:36 PM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: jls]
wojax Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 171
Loc: Florida
Sounds to me like a mental health problem....If you are going to work with the least of society things like that will happen...We have many vets out there that are homeless and do some very bad things..They need help not jail..
As apolice officer I have ran into many situations like this..It is better left to the mental health people....
I think you over reacted...
Gary

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Jer 7:23 ps 91:16

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#287995 - 05/18/09 11:40 PM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: wojax]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
Gary,

May I ask, should someone who has committed sex crimes against multiple individuals be allowed to continue to do so without some form of legal intervention? Was this the position you took as a police officer, or that you take as a survivor?

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#288008 - 05/19/09 01:21 AM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: jls]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
I don't think you over reacted. True, the guy probably has a mental health problem, but if you think about it, if a guy was about to rape a female, taking off his pants and beginning to masturbate would be a logical start and how was that woman to know that this was not the person's intention?

Of course I don't know the details, but that's my thoughts on the matter.

I think it's kind of a wrong-headed notion to call the act it's self a sexual assault, but it should be looked at the same as threatening someone if it's done in a situation where it would be logical for the person to feel threatened by it.

I don't know how much good it will do though. If he has a history, then nothing has worked so far.



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#288011 - 05/19/09 01:37 AM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: blueshift]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
Whether you call what he did "wrong headed", according to the law in this country what he did is sexual assault, that is targeting someone with unwanted sexual behaviour I mean. No amount of pontificating from memebers here can change this with concern to the law of the land where I live. The young woman involved is barely 20 and the perpetrator is well in to his 40's so what does that say? The act in question was done in a dark dorm where she did indeed feel threatened, which from talking to her she was visibly upset about it afterward. Maybe I should also mention that the client in question in this matter also has a past conviction for sexually assaulting a child. I didn't want to bring that up but there it is. Anyways I'm having a hard time accepting that some members here want to make excuses for a perpetrator so I'll go now. Maye I need a break from this board

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#288013 - 05/19/09 01:56 AM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: jls]
wojax Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 171
Loc: Florida
What did the man do? Was he trying to rape your fellow worker..if so why did she not say something..Was he going to sexuly assult anyone but his self..
Yes what he did was wrong....But , like here these people need to be kept safe..And Learn how to act....Go where mentaly retared boys are and you will find them doing the same thing...should we lock them in jail?
I think a little more wisdom couod have been used...Like your boss used...

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Jer 7:23 ps 91:16

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#288022 - 05/19/09 04:02 AM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: wojax]
crazy73 Offline


Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 26
deleted



Edited by crazy73 (09/23/09 04:28 AM)

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#288027 - 05/19/09 06:56 AM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: crazy73]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
I think you did the right thing. His having a history sounds an alarm that he is sliding back into behaviors - if he ever stopped. It was not your place to decide whether he needed therapy or jail. Your supervisor should have some influence in the community to help with that. In the meantime there was no recourse but to report it. I am sure there are vulnerable children in the shelter.

As for police. I have met both insensitive to sexual assaults and those very caring. It takes training and understanding.

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#288047 - 05/19/09 10:27 AM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: prisonerID]
Gus Bierer Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/16/05
Posts: 160
This is an interesting topic. Your manager made his decision based on the incident being a mental health issue, not a sexual assault. I have lived in a mission, and worked running the mission. I saw a lot of people who had lost their minds.

My guess is this guy has lost his will to fight his sexual impulses. I mean look at how the guy is living, obviously he feels he has nothing to lose.

Another thing, the mission i was at was a mens shelter, there were no female staff. Maybe it would be better to keep men and women shelter's separate.

I also believe the right thing was done by having a police report made on the individual. Since he no doubt has spent time in jail, usually some kind of police involvement will get the perps. attention. Everyone knows, especially people who have got into trouble, that a police interview is a predicate to going to jail. The police are watching him now, and he probably knows it, so if there is another incident, the perp knows he's going to jail.

I lived at the mission for 6 mths. The cops really go after homeless people that cause trouble. I worked at the front desk and dealt with the homeless as they came in the door. I know all about services and cutting services off.

Since you guys knew he had sexual problems, I think it's really stupid on the shelter's part to have a 20 something woman around this guy. A homeless shelter is no place for a soft girl. What this guy needed was someone to go off on him as he was committing the offense. Like how some black girls lose their tempers, the guy needed his sexual spirit broke right as the incident was happening. Then he would have an idea of what his behavior gets him, kind of aversion therapy.

I just know it's a tough world out there being homeless and working with the homeless. You have to understand what these people are capable of. You can't pretend to believe if your nice to them, they're are going to be nice and respectful back. Some people view that as weakness, fearful, and they see an opportunity to take advantage of you.

I don't think the girl should have been hired in the first place. I even knew this sweet little christian girl, who never suffered a moment in her life, tell me how she went to a soup kitchen and helped serve the homeless food one night. She was shocked at how ungrateful the homeless people were. I laughed at her...she had no freakin' idea what it was like for those homeless people, how wounded, broken, and misrable those people were.

A homeless shelter is no place for some dumb girl...SMARTEN' UP!!!



Gus

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#288053 - 05/19/09 11:30 AM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: Gus Bierer]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
JLS, you did exactly the right thing, actually I think you went above and beyond doing the right thing. There will always be those that shy away from what's not only the right thing but the harder thing to do, including police officers. If police officers (including past CSA officers) had the proper training the would recognize instantly you did exactly what you were supposed to do. The first step to preventing sexual assault is to remove the threat, once he's safe in police custody where he is no longer a threat, THEN!!! it can be determined what type of help he needs.

Unfortunately since police are so overwhelmed they get to a point where minor violation's become a nuisence.

Quote: "you over-reacted" My words: call us when she has been raped, because MAYBE he might not go that far. Ughhh, pretty sad opinion from a CSA officer.

SS
Mike

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#288072 - 05/19/09 01:22 PM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: mogigo]
wojax Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 171
Loc: Florida
I think the duty to handle this was with the Director of the shelter ( not to have some one second guss me) I it was me I would give you your walking shoes...but that is me
As a police Officer i went through some therough training...
I was not aware that this guy had a history of sexual battery...
A peace officer in my state can fill out a 1013 form and transport a person to a mental hospal for an evaluation..I have done this many time...Like the guy I found having sex with the devil..The guy just checked out of this world..
Again I think you over reacted...
If the woman worker felt indangered ..then no one would have to talk her in to calling the police

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Jer 7:23 ps 91:16

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#288074 - 05/19/09 01:37 PM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: wojax]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
good lord, save us all.

Didn't know working at a homeless shelter meant training for working with mentally imbalanced people.

"I was not aware that this guy had a history of sexual battery", EXPOSING YOURSELF IS SEXUAL BATTERY!!

How much do you think he makes working at the homeless shelter?

How much training do you think he has working at a homeless shelter?

This is YOU'RE job, That is why YOU have the TRAINING

"If the woman felt indangered..then no one would have to talk her in to calling the police". Are you flippen serious? All survivor's on here, speak up now, because this guy just told you that you are irrevelant because if you felt endangered then no one would have had to talk you into calling the police.

Raise of hands please, how many of you called the police when you felt in danger? According to Wojax, you're all idiots.

Man, this is unbeivable.

Wajax, you're a survivor, right?. Did you call the police?

Ugh
Mike

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#288080 - 05/19/09 02:37 PM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: mogigo]
wojax Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 171
Loc: Florida
Mike dont put words in my mouth ...After reading your post i can see the Idiot.
We are talking about a flasher not jack the riper

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Jer 7:23 ps 91:16

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#288081 - 05/19/09 02:44 PM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: jls]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Originally Posted By: jls
Whether you call what he did "wrong headed", according to the law in this country what he did is sexual assault, that is targeting someone with unwanted sexual behaviour I mean. No amount of pontificating from memebers here can change this with concern to the law of the land where I live. The young woman involved is barely 20 and the perpetrator is well in to his 40's so what does that say? The act in question was done in a dark dorm where she did indeed feel threatened, which from talking to her she was visibly upset about it afterward. Maybe I should also mention that the client in question in this matter also has a past conviction for sexually assaulting a child. I didn't want to bring that up but there it is. Anyways I'm having a hard time accepting that some members here want to make excuses for a perpetrator so I'll go now. Maye I need a break from this board


Please read my posts before replying to them! I'm on your side on this... but having trouble wanting to stay there when you twist my words. I wasn't "pontificating" or being unclear about what I said, so I'm not going to explain what I meant when it's right there in black and white.



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#288085 - 05/19/09 03:16 PM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: blueshift]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Doug, sorry you got involved. Never was I insinuating anything about what you posted.

Wojax, did you really just call me an idiot? I never once called you a name. If you'll read closer I was insinuating that you called others that.

Please wojax, enlighten me on what you think of assault being any act that makes another feel threatened. Do you belittle those people as well. Being an officer and all, when a person wants to press charges on assault because someone is screaming that they want to kill that person, do you just tell them they are over reacting. perhap's you would like to go back in time a little more and tell us why criminal charges are an over reaction, being all trained and everything.

Perhaps you should stop spouting on-line to a bunch of victim's why legitamite charges of sexual assault are an over-reaction, mayhap you go to congress and tell them why the charges they have voted into being be removed with you're absolute authority on the subject of what constitutes sexual assault and not.

Funny how it's a legitimate charge enough for congress to vote it into a criminal charge but you feel it just not worthy and an over-reaction. You being a police officer and all, and having much more knowledge on what bugs you when you have to go and press charges.

Honestly Wojax, did you really call me an idiot?

Mike

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#288089 - 05/19/09 03:35 PM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: mogigo]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
Flashing is not nearly as serious as any kind of forced sexual contact, but because of the guy's history certainly you were well within bounds to involve the law-enforcement community and seek to have him removed from the shelter. Perhaps the young woman could use some kind of mental-health support too.

We won't accomplish much good by going beyond acceptable boundaries of interpersonal conduct here either.

Yes dad,

Mark





Edited by Trucker51 (05/19/09 03:35 PM)
_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#288090 - 05/19/09 03:45 PM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: mogigo]
wojax Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 171
Loc: Florida
Yes mike I did and im sorry..
First doug I m not sure what country your in..That girl had no reason to be in a dim room with a bunch of men...Im sure I agree with what your saying Doug...some how this got to my CSA and away from the first post...I am a retired police officer it was my job to enforce the law with wisdom...To protect the public..
I can asure if i had been there I wouod have been the first to stop him...And he wouold have been band from the shelter...
If I have ofended any of you guys im sorry

_________________________
Jer 7:23 ps 91:16

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#288091 - 05/19/09 03:51 PM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: jls]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
i can't help but say this, but when i see people so willing to slough off non-contact sexual abuse such as this, it makes me wonder if it's not just a subjective plea for personal leniency. this is a primary example of why 'rules' are so important.

saying, 'oh, ignore it', is an ignorant attempt to dumb down the tolerance level for such demoralizing behavior. masturbation is a private matter between individuals. though i am definitely not judging public masturbation itself as long as those in view have chosen to witness it, i'd just rather not be exposed to a random act of public masturbation. after all, it's my right to not have such a visual burned into my brain without my prior consent.

it does sound like a mental health issue that's for sure, but i don't think we should just wave it off as par for the course. administrators who are not aware of the implict dangers of excusing such behavior are in dire need of education, for the safety and protection of the rights of all the people in their field of care.

that's my viewpoint as a person whose sexual boundaries were smashed immutably, beyond complete restoration.

ron

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#288092 - 05/19/09 03:56 PM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: Trucker51]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
"Flashing is not nearly as serious as any kind of forced sexual conduct" Makes sense mark, I'll be sure to point that out to the person when they come here having issues of embarrasment, guilt and shame.

Oh, but wait, only a loser would feel those things over something as minimal as flashing.

Man, I'm so glad people here know what constitutes a "major" assault. Perhaps we can get the mod's to put up a warning "no survivors allowed who have not actually had sexualt contact, you just don't matter".

Okay, I see what you're thinking, I'm sure you both have it on absolute authority that she will have no nightmares and it won't effect her in anyway. Because after all, everyone react's exactly like you do.

PS: maybe she would only need a month, but it would be nice if "authority" doesn't turn it into a lifelong problem. Simply because it wasn't that bad. I know my problem wouldn't have been so bad if people would have just stopped telling me I was fucking over-reacting

But then I'm an idiot

M

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#288094 - 05/19/09 04:09 PM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: mogigo]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Wojax, I just read you're last post and I respect you so much Brother, in fact even through this "arguement" I never stopped. I was just arguing, nothing more.

I got my back up, sorry.

Funny Wojax, because this became my CSA as well. Sorry.

Stay strong
Mike

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#288097 - 05/19/09 04:16 PM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: jls]
ModTeam Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 690
Guys,

Just a reminder to take a deep breath and a step back before typing a reactive response. It is very important to maintain respect toward both transmitters and receivers here in this volatile subject.

Nobody needs to come here and be further victimized by friends and brothers who so very well 'know the pain'.

Keep it 'light', please, and thank you.


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Private messages sent to this account are checked irregularly due to personnel and time constraints. Please send messages to one of the moderators for the forum that is concerned by user name, or if there is no named moderator, send a PM to any moderator.

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#288099 - 05/19/09 04:22 PM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: ModTeam]
wojax Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 171
Loc: Florida
noted thanks

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Jer 7:23 ps 91:16

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#288128 - 05/19/09 08:47 PM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: mogigo]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Originally Posted By: mogigo
Doug, sorry you got involved. Never was I insinuating anything about what you posted.


You can relax about me, bro. I was replying to jls. I used quotes to avoid any confusion. Seems like everyone's going through these threads too quickly! lol



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#288136 - 05/19/09 10:03 PM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: blueshift]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
I just want to clarify that I was in no way minimizing the act under discussion by saying I didn't think it should be called a sexual assault. Nor do I feel that people harmed psychologically by indecent exposure are not traumatized.

I just feel that its a matter of context. In this case, it sounds like the behavior resulted in someone feeling threatened and that is the crime. But if someone exposing him or herself is, regardless of context, a sexual assault then I would have to say that some of the best memories of my childhood was being "sexually assaulted" repeatedly by multiple people at the nudist camp my dad took me to.

On the other hand, I also remember a man sticking his wiener at me through a hole in the partition in the mens room at a bus depot when I was a little boy. I still wouldn't call that a sexual assault, but was I traumatized? Absolutely! and I treat the memory the same as a sexual assault but it when where and how it was done that made it traumatic.

It sounds like where Jls is, the law would call some man who got seen taking off his clothes at a secluded beach on a hot day a sexual predator! Laws need to be written so they make sense. That's all I'm saying.



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#288152 - 05/20/09 02:16 AM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: prisonerID]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
Thanks for the support. Your right that it was not my decision to make whether he's ordered to therapy or to jail. Some here may believe that I came from a callous and hard place when the police were called but I want people to know that deep down I did it because I felt he needed help that he wasn't getting, if not for himself but for the larger community. As things turns out, he was charged again today for more sexual offences against staff, the latest involving approaching and groping another female staff member against her will. I rest my case.

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#288665 - 05/24/09 08:23 AM Re: Sexual Assault at Work [Re: jls]
Geeders Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 1901
Loc: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
JLS,

Sorry if I am venturing in late on this. A few of us here at MS, and as well, in this thread, appreciate your point of view, and also understand that in your country, the bar is set on purpose very low, with the intent of protecting as many people as possible from unwanted sexual experiences. We also have to keep in mind in this discussion that the interpretation of sexual assault in your country is different from others in other countries. What constitutes sexual assault where you live is what matters as those are the societal rules that govern your life, and those around you. I think you did the right thing.

I'd also like to put the issue of power on the table. The man with the offending behaviour obviously thought he had power, and could do whatever he wanted. His use of that power crossed the line in your country, and to not call the police would only have allowed him to retain his power, his control over others. To not call the police would have kept the secret, allowing the abuser to continue his abuse of others. I think you know where I am going with this. As adults now, we have the ability to say in a loud voice that no one should have to be exposed to another's sexual behaviour without their consent. We have the power. If we choose to not use it, that just lets the bad guys continue being bad. I'm sorry someone else got hurt by the bad guy. Maybe if someone else had called the cops a lot earlier, neither of the people who you wrote about might have been hurt.

Doug,

In my country, women, not just in nudist colonies, but on the street, have the legal right to be able walk on the streets topless, if they so choose. When the case to obtain this right went to court, the decision was made that women's breasts are not, in and of themselves sexual any more than a man's. Its society's (predominatly men's) objectification of them that has resulted in the sexualization of the anatomy. Just thought I'd throw that in there for the hell of it. grin

Jim

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