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#286589 - 05/07/09 11:09 AM New forum needed: Learning Effects
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6708
Loc: USA
Because my time is short, I have to be quick about something that is apparently very important. I have been exchanging messages with at least two persons who are either parents of children who have special needs because of CSA or who themselves need special guidance because of their own CSA.

Survivors have major problems in our educational system. Their traumas are probably mis-diagnosed by the system as a variety of other disabilities (such as ad and adhd) and they are sometimes sidelined or medicated because of it.

Survivors have all kinds of special problems in relating to classroom and individual instruction. They have: 1. dissociation problems during instruction. 2. problems interacting with other students. 3. Behavioral problems. 4. Family problems 5. Problems in concentrating on school work. 6. Issues with PTSD. 7. Special problems with projection and transferrence.

I am sure the list could go on. In fact, it probably needs to be refined and amended.

I was able to have some succeess educationally because I was able to solve many of my own problems with the system in an effective way. There are lots of guys (and gals) who need assistance in achieving success with the educational system.

We need a forum where educational issues for survivors are specifically discussed.

Allen

pufferfish whistle





Edited by pufferfish (05/08/09 09:52 PM)
Edit Reason: tempered

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#286783 - 05/08/09 09:53 PM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6708
Loc: USA
Come on guys, certainly somebody must be willing to second my motion!

Allen

pufferfish whistle


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#286828 - 05/09/09 05:29 AM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: pufferfish]
profryr1974 Offline


Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 9
Loc: arizona
I know in my growing up which while not subject to sexual asault - my father was drunk often and abusive and my mother had one of those emeshed relationships with me. In 7th or 8th grade I got diagnosed with a slew of learning dissabilities. These where hardly such to me because they served as the name by which I could validate how I had been learning- through dialogue and movies and drama and empathy and art, etc. I think the conect is a fruitfull one. We can get so caught in a theraputic model which is by definition pathologizing.

My theological or religious convictions are a way that I make sense of a different orientation since I start with the theoretical idea that there is a brokeness to the workld. My struggles and yours are as much a representation of an attempt against all odds to live a loving and passionate conection to people and the world in light of devestating brokeness as they are about a disorder and distortion. I do think this does call for a reflectiveness about our assumptions because it is all to easy to think our fears are the voice of our unwounded self- or to think that the vicious motives we imagine of anotehr are in fact true. I have every right to operate according to that likelihood but to impose my perception would seem to simply pathologize as the happy outcpome of my hard one attempt to be honored for difference.

This gets at some touching issues with an ex where I think I here his words and meaning and can not seem to find any enterence where by he can safely hear that my actions where - though not to be repeated - a responce to fear and terror and an attempt to gain footting not wholy different from his attribution of noble traits to me or to now that there is a conect finally shower that affection. It is late and I am not doing my heart's ache justice.

_________________________
RYR1974

"I have not hands to stop every mouth so there is nothing but to speak the truth and trust God." Queen Elizabeth I

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#286842 - 05/09/09 08:41 AM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: profryr1974]
king tut Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2465
Loc: UK
"We need a forum where educational issues for survivors are specifically discussed."

That certainly speaks to me- but more for how survivor issues affect education- both statements are very important. There is somewhat of a distinction between the two areas.

I think about the creation of this forum and i see much potential in it, and i'm sure that educational issues will be understood much better with this forum- it does seem to be a bit of a blackhole.

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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#286852 - 05/09/09 10:58 AM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: king tut]
profryr1974 Offline


Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 9
Loc: arizona
Good topic-- It has been astounding what I used to take to so well (school) has once again become a mystery--

Another would be work which I am sure is somewhere amoung the many posts.

Ralph

_________________________
RYR1974

"I have not hands to stop every mouth so there is nothing but to speak the truth and trust God." Queen Elizabeth I

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#286877 - 05/09/09 02:17 PM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: profryr1974]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
I had many problems in school. I was supposed to be "gifted" but only did well if my teacher was good at reaching me, encouraging me, and building me up. Otherwise I was one of the worst kids in the class. I was withdrawn for most of elementary and junior high school, before discovering illegal drugs and life in the streets with my street gang friends. My dad was a loud and often angry type-A business executive who was really good at making me feel small. He was also fond of using his fists until I got to be too big for him to intimidate. My mother was an enabler who put-up with my dad's excesses. She also was heavily involved to the point of addiction in a fringe religion. For most of the time from high school through my late 20s I had little to do with my parents, for most of the time I lived well apart from them.

My 2nd attempt at college came during my 1st attempt at recovery, and I did much better. I was on the Dean's List and for a time maintained a high GPA. But the breakup of my first marriage combined with the 1990 recession in Cleveland, OH and my becoming heavily addicted to cocaine again, (after 3 years clean), led to my dropping-out of college and my 7 years of living in hell before my 2nd attempt at recovery began. I was a good student when my life was going good. But when faced with the breakup of my marriage and the economic loss of the recession I lacked good coping skills and my fragile self-esteem was quickly shattered. I did not have enough recovery skills or enough in the way of recovery support to fall back on when things got tough.

I was misdiagnosed with ADD and medicated without the desired effect. All sorts of prognosis were made about me but none of them were correct. The real problem was my victimization combined with what had happened when I tried twice to disclose my abuse at the ages of 15 and 16 & 1/2. The other problem was that my parent's religious involvement was with a faith-healing church and we never saw any doctors or trusted the medical community. I was basically left on my own and fell through the cracks that existed then with the system.

So another forum designed for educational issues faced by CSA survivors would seem to be desirable. And as Ralph suggested, another one for the employment issues faced by survivors might also be in order. Before my 2nd attempt at recovery I had a heck of a time keeping a job, and I know that I am not alone there either. An employment forum might be helpful from a networking standpoint too.

Good idea Allen, and Ralph too.

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#287051 - 05/11/09 02:50 AM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: Trucker51]
Shadow+Walker Offline


Registered: 04/16/09
Posts: 287
Loc: desolate foggy nights, USA
Allen,
You have my vote. Thanks for posting the query. I've been dealing with learning difficulties since I was molested. I would like to have a point of communication to discuss if/how our sexual victimization effected our learning disorders. I also think we can share information on how to access services or deal with hesitant regristrars and professors. Learning challenges have affected me from kindergarten through graduate school, and even today. Guys, thanks for your response. Besides, I think that others who access MS in the future will benefit from our discussion of this topic.

Peace,
Shadow+Walker

_________________________
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, love and self discipline. (St Paul, 2Timothy 1:7) NIV

Check out a cool song by a hot band..."Unbreakable" by Fireflight: official video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWRJAHaOrYg

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#287094 - 05/11/09 01:52 PM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: Shadow+Walker]
soapy bubbles Offline
Member

Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 332
Loc: london
I would welcome a forum of this kind and would like it to be open to everyone.

SB

_________________________
"Though we travel the world over to find the beautiful, we must carry it with us or we find it not.” ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

“Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission.” --- Eleanor Roosevelt

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#287095 - 05/11/09 02:02 PM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: pufferfish]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
what a great idea, and now that soapy has suggested it be open to the whole community it even makes more sense!

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#287102 - 05/11/09 03:29 PM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: Sans Logos]
Happy Birthday michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Guys,

I can relate to this post. How can you learn when you are rarely there. (disasociation) So I wasn't the only with problems in school.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#287583 - 05/15/09 08:35 AM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: michael banks]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Allen,

As former Site Admin I read this and my first thought was, well, couldn't all this go very easily into the "Male Survivors" forums on the public and members' sides. But as I think more and more about it, I think your idea has a lot of merit.

After all, a forum isn't just a category where we can stick things, it's a tool. Just the existence of the forum encourages guys to think about the topic and talk about it.

If we had a forum entitled something like "School and Learning Issues" I think that would draw attention to the huge influence that school and educational experiences have had on the development of each and every one of us. So many of us were shaped in some way by school experiences related to our abuse problems, and many of us still struggle along with those problems, in many cases not even realizing that these problems exist.

Good idea! I know the ModTeam will give it serious consideration.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#287592 - 05/15/09 11:17 AM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: roadrunner]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
I was a good student, until shortly after the abuse. The sexual abuse occurred at age 9. When I started becoming sexually aware at age 12, it all went downhill. Sexual identity issues, apathy towards school-work, rebelliousness, hating the school system (no regrets about that, but it didn't help me much later in life) etc, etc, etc.

In general, I tended to have a self-view of not having a future no matter what I did, hence, I never tried to "succeed" at anything. Does this make sense to anyone? Can anyone relate?

I remember 6th grade, sitting with my Dad one night, I was trying to finish some god-awful math homework assignment. I hate math, I would rather get a tooth pulled than open a math book. I needed help. He was sitting with me and showing me how to do it..........all of a sudden just started getting upset and tearful/crying, I didn't even know why, I just was..........my dad's reaction? Oh, he thought I "just didn't want to do the homework" and told me to go to bed in an angry and short-tempered tone.

Another fucking clueless parent.


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#287677 - 05/16/09 01:33 AM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: Hauser]
Happy Birthday michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Allan,

I could have written your post here.
I too was 9 when Mr Candale came into my life.
As a kid I had no dreams of bring a fireman, doctor etc...
My only dream was to become 18 and I would be free to do what I wanted to do.I never made plans to ensure any direction of where may go. Everything in my life that has happened go far has just seem to drop in my life.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#287717 - 05/16/09 02:10 PM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: michael banks]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
This thread brings back so many really difficult school issues I had to face in therapy:

1. How can algebra homework be important when you know that afternoon you will be messed with again?

2. Hating to go to school (especially gym class) because you fear that somehow the abuse will "show" on you. It feels like you have a sign on you, and it seems like anyone else can just help himself if he wants to.

3. Isolating from friends at school for fear they will "want me like that", and at the same time thinking my friends are rejecting me.

4. Gym teacher who called me a "queer" because I wrote a poem in memory of Robert Frost, who had just died. Logic??? All poets are queers, and only a queer would write a poem about another queer.

5. Hearing another guy in study hall explain what "BJ" means, and everybody but me goes, "OMG! Ewwwwwww!!!!" So school gradually becomes a place where you expect the worst emotional ambushes to happen.

Etc.

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#287804 - 05/17/09 12:18 PM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: roadrunner]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
How could any homework or anything that I ever did be important enough for me to put forth enough effort to do well, when all that my father was likely to do was yell at me, call me stupid, and berate me for not doing a better job, no matter how good a job that anyone else thought that I did?

I still remember, Spring semester of 1987 at Cleveland State, getting an "A" grade on a 20-page term paper and an "A" grade in the first advanced-level course I took at college, before I had even declared a major. The professor was the former Planning Director of Cleveland who had encouraged me to take his senior-level Urban Planning course after I had done well in his 200-level intro. I was full of pride when I brought the paper home to show my dad. I was so hoping that for once he would relent and tell me that I had done a good job. Dad read it then scowled and angrily snapped "you could have done a better job". When I asked him how, he got all angry and started remembering all of my faults in history instead of anything to do with my performance in this paper or class. Finally he started throwing things in the kitchen and his last opportunity to praise me was lost as I ran to my car. He died before I enjoyed much of my success in recovery. His death in some ways helped me, as I didn't have all of that negativity conspiring to tear away at any accomplishment that I might attempt.

Part of the reason that I try to encourage others is because I never enjoyed any encouragement from my father, and I know how much that his constant negativity hurt me in my education, personal growth, and early progress in recovery. I feel that encouragement in education lays an important foundation, and the lack of any positive recognition dooms many young people to a life of lesser expectations.

Again, a separate forum for educational aspects common to many survivors is an excellent idea.

Mark



_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#287973 - 05/18/09 09:15 PM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: Trucker51]
Happy Birthday michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Mark,

You being up an interesting idea. Like your father was for you my mother was a very controlling and negative influence on my life as a child and young adult. She died in 1981 of cancer when i was 20. I wonder if I would have started my recovery in my 20's if she had still been alive.
Interesting how life and death have so much impact on our lives.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#289875 - 06/01/09 09:50 PM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: michael banks]
larry-nz Offline


Registered: 06/01/09
Posts: 7
Loc: US citizen living in New Zeala...
This is a great idea. My ability to learn seems more affected now after a major depression in 1999 and again in 2003 than ever before. As a child I always did well when there was a creative way to express what I was learning because I found reading and conveying information in written form difficult. It is no wonder that I became a graphic designer/visual communications and artist. After a successful few years in the design world I began to teach design and did so successfully for 14 years. When I became unwell my career and my learning seemed to disappear from the face of the earth. I have difficulty concentrating and absorbing information aurally and verbally. So, reading for pleasure is out the door. Reading for learning seems impossible.
After reading how PTSD can affect brain function in the developing child it seems clear that my so-called 'learning disability' may actually have been a brain dysfunction...I was sexually abused to various degrees from age 5 to 15. I 'just' managed to complete a masters degree which was a stressor - due to the nature of writing a thesis. Comments on the thesis had more to do with the 'odd language style' than the project itself. Because of my B- grade I now find it difficult to gain entry into a PhD programme - even for a studio arts based 'thesis'. Hmmm.
This year I embarked on studying Spanish at university - to gain a new outlook on learning. I had already done 2 years in high school so thought I'd have a grasp and manage ok. However, halfway through the semester PTSD symptoms crept in and made the class impossible to continue with.


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#290072 - 06/03/09 12:37 PM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: larry-nz]
wojax Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 171
Loc: Florida
This made me think back to school...I was never very good at it ..Had a hard time fiting in (before the abuse) Mother and father divorced and i wanted a Daddy like any other little boy..
Thinking back I now know I was very sad, unhappy and lonley..
I would chew the collors on my shirts..
Then after the abuse I started the same behavior, Even to this day I have a problem with learning , I do love learning new things.
But, I agree our kids need to be saught out and helped...Maybe there is a way that we can help in a social seting or school..
well any way my thoughts
Gary

_________________________
Jer 7:23 ps 91:16

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#293100 - 06/26/09 12:46 AM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: pufferfish]
friendinneed Offline


Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 107
Hi ALLEN,

I would help support this group in a non-professional way. I had so many educational challenges as a youngster that I know that of what you speak is needed, and would be a valuable resource.

Let me know how I can help.

Peace my friend,
Shaun



Edited by friendinneed (06/26/09 12:47 AM)

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#293103 - 06/26/09 01:07 AM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: friendinneed]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6708
Loc: USA
Thanks guys,

I instinctively think that this is an important area for us.

Yes I think we need to look deeply into learning effects and their solutions.

I know from my own life that abuse at an early age had a terrible effect on my educational life. Yes, I went ahead and finished school and college etc., etc. But that's irrelevant. For each of us the question is what might I do educationally to erase or nullify the damage. How can I overcome the negative effects that abuse has had on my life.

And the effects of abuse are going to be different depending on all kinds of variables. I just got through writing a post on the effect of age of kid versus the severity of abuse. These considerations have to be important for us. The answers we need are going to be different depending on our age of abuse, the type of abuse, etc., etc. We need satisfying answers to these questions to help guys get through it. We cannot wait until society gets around to coming to us with its answers.

Allen

pufferfish whistle


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#293214 - 06/26/09 04:39 PM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: pufferfish]
friendinneed Offline


Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 107
So Allen. What model do you think a forum on this issue should take should it be kind of just a place to come and chat, or should it have resources, information content as well. Should it have outreach potential to assist the learner directly through chat . Should there be a part for parents/caregivers and maybe one for educators/professionals as well.

I think that these things would be helpful in my opinion and would fill a need. Its just my opinion. You have my full support. Let me know what I can do to support.

Peace,

Shaun


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#293247 - 06/26/09 08:04 PM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: friendinneed]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6708
Loc: USA
Shaun,

I'm so glad you asked.

I would like to see the Learning Effects Forum grow. It would be like a little tree planted. At first it would be small and then it would grow into a bastion of strength for us.

It would include questions which would then be answered as other questions are answered here. But it would have to have additional input, such as book reviews and book outlines. We might move toward having a healing circle for attention deficit disorder as it relates to abuse, and other disorders.

We have already had some discussion of eye disorders as they relate to acquiring skill in reading.

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=291450&page=1

For now the Mod Team wants it to be a part of the Health and Wellbeing Forum. As the Learning Forum content grew it would become its own forum. For now we are supposed to be a niche in the Health and Well Being Forum.

More later.

Allen

pufferfish whistle




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#293254 - 06/26/09 09:22 PM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: pufferfish]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Originally Posted By: pufferfish
For now we are supposed to be a niche in the Health and Well Being Forum.
Perhaps I am mis-reading this quote, but I am not then I'm very disappointed that such a complexe effect of our abuse could be considered, by those who should know better, to be so easily sub-catagorized.

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

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#293274 - 06/27/09 12:20 AM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: joelRT]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6708
Loc: USA
We just don't have enough input at this stage to warrant having a separate forum.

Yes I think it's terribly important. But we just have a dribble of questions and answers so far. I don't have enough time to get it going single handedly. We need someone who has some particular expertise and/or time available.

Yes, I have had experience as a (college) teacher and I have done a lot of thinking and a lot of work on my own visual issues and their relationship to reading. I think a lot of guys must have similar problems but we haven't had a very big response to the series presently going on in the Health forum.

Sometimes it's just because there is a lot else going on. That seems to be the case now.

Allen

pufferfish whistle




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#293459 - 06/29/09 01:03 AM Re: New forum needed: Learning Effects [Re: pufferfish]
friendinneed Offline


Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 107
As for expertise it is difficult as for so many of us "professionals" we are regulated to death so we can't come across in any capacity as acting in a professional way. Mainly because this could be very dangerous to the affected having never seen or evaluated them. Still I will as an adjunct be willing to begin researching articles for our reference list and will use my knoweledge base in educational, clinical, health psychology to assist there. Also in terms of outline books I can assist there as well. I teach too adjunct. Psych, and life science courses. As for time I would also be willing to be on mod team or whatever to share the burden. I'll do my share just let me know what that should be.

I remember reading several articles related to the subject I will have to try finding them again. I may be surprized but I think finding much is going to be difficult as abuse recovery is still in its childhood stage in terms of science and then correlation to duel feild of medicine from a research method and evaluation issue several varibles are problematic there.

So Allen are you thinking of targeting the college group or younger? The earlier you start intervention the easier it is.

I wonder if there is a way to bullet or something within the health wellness section linking say to friends and family i.e. parents as you say it is going to be a problem getting lost otherwise.

It is too important to allow this to happen.

Peace,
Shaun/friendnneed


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