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#280850 - 03/26/09 09:25 AM if it ain't broke don't fix it....
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
ken singer posted a great article entitled

fixing homosexuality

i felt a need to point to that from this forum.

talk about your 'good news'.......

ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#281022 - 03/27/09 10:56 AM Re: if it ain't broke don't fix it.... [Re: Sans Logos]
Letourski Offline


Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Hey Ron,

I will only say this, unbelievable! I cannot believe we think this way in 2009.

_________________________
I am the warrior.

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#281132 - 03/28/09 01:11 AM Re: if it ain't broke don't fix it.... [Re: Letourski]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
The website is new and under development. It is about use of so-called "treatments" that aim to make homosexual people heterosexual. It arose from research funded by the Wellcome Trust from 2001 to 2004 into the oral history of such treatments in Britain since 1950.


Treatments to change a person's sexuality are unethical and may be damaging. This is because homosexuality is NOT a disorder. Nor is there any evidence that any such "treatments" are effective. That is the reason why we collected a number of oral histories from lesbian, gay and bisexual (LGB) people who had undergone therapy. We also collected oral histories from professionals who had developed and conducted the treatments. We wanted to know how patients had coped with the potentially damaging effects of "treatment" and whether the professionals had eventually realised the harm they were doing.


On this website you will find some of the oral histories that arose from that research. We have not put all the narratives here; rather we have included only those that show particular issues and that are the most revealing of how treatments were conducted.

--------------------------------------------------------------

The website and the Wellcome Trust are both out of the UK. It sounds to me that the entire goal of the new website is to prove that such treatment is unethical and may be damaging to the patients involved. I went and read a couple of the patient statements and in both cases the patients ended-up in worse shape than they had started in. In the one case, the victim was also a victim of CSA. ("Religious therapy").

It sounds like Ken was trying to encourage the development of the site and its goals, while also trying himself to show his position to be in stark opposition to such practices. For some reason it seemed that some of us didn't see the distinctions.

Both the new site and Ken are trying to oppose such practices.

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#281145 - 03/28/09 09:06 AM Re: if it ain't broke don't fix it.... [Re: Trucker51]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Quote:
It sounds like Ken was trying to encourage the development of the site and its goals, while also trying himself to show his position to be in stark opposition to such practices. For some reason it seemed that some of us didn't see the distinctions.


I am amazed at the amount of speculation that has emerged from this post. I merely passed on a link I got on another site and had no agenda. I know that folks have a variety of understanding for what "causes" homosexuality and there has been lots said about the other flavors of same sex attraction or fixation with penises.

To set the record straight, I have no interest in the UK site. While I personally/professionally don't think such therapies are effective, I don't want to discourage those who think it will help get rid of unwanted thoughts or behaviors. I wouldn't do it but if others want to, so be it.

I think there is confusion by some who don't understand that sexual arousal and some sexual behaviors are tied into the abuse. This can manifest itself in repetitive fantasies of abuse re-enactments, fixation on penises, acting out with males when under stress, and other thoughts or behaviors that seem to be homosexual in nature but may not actually be.

If it is possible to have a civil discussion about the topic, that would be great. However, it seems that some folks have an ax to grind and it goes into personal attacks or religious issues.

There are a lot of survivors here who are confused as to what their thoughts, feelings and behaviors mean in terms of whether they are heterosexual, homosexual, bi-sexual, or whatever.

Can we have a civil discussion of the issues without speculation or name-calling?


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#281152 - 03/28/09 10:50 AM Re: if it ain't broke don't fix it.... [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303

Here's a host of articles that seem to indicate that fruit flys are influenced by their environment in their sexual behavior, from types of relationships with males when young, to the consumption of alcohol, to, for some, genes.

The main article is about early relationships, but if you look at the bottom, you'll see other fruit fly experiments so you can look them up if you want.

Just seems to me that we're still really ignorant about human behavior in general and sexual behavior specifically, and that ignorance should lead to humility -- and thus an open-minded attitude -- cuz how really knows?

We're still studying fruit fly behavior.... and they're way more simple than our bigger, more complicated brains.

By the way, fruit flys sleep, they lay down and sleep. Cute little things.

And no, fruit flys probably aren't exact little models for human sexuality because they have some gene that apparently humans don't have. Still, even they're effected by both genes and relationships, alcohol consumption, etc....

And there's some type of antelope where the females are the aggressor, though as yet, science has not discovered anything that different in the genes of this antelope compared to it's closest relative.

Sort of like the Bonobos vs. the Chimps, indicating that mammals as well as fruit flys are influenced by early experience. And yes, there might also be individuals, just like in fruit flys, who have a genetic difference.

Anyway, whoever comes up with the Final Truth will probably win the Nobel Prize, so far that's not me smile

Self determination seems the only sane course of action, as well as the only moral one given our lack of knowledge, cuz pretending we know more than we do and then trying to pursuade others to believe as we do, has a moral dimension.


ast Experience Of Pheromones Induces Dominant Courtship Behavior In Fruit Flies
ScienceDaily (Oct. 12, 2005) — By investigating the interplay between pheromone signaling and behavior in fruit flies, researchers have begun to understand how an adult fly's earlier experience as a young individual can influence its behavior towards other flies as an adult. In particular, the researchers found that pheromone signals in the context of experience with adult flies can influence how young flies will behave once they reach maturity.
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The work is reported by Jean-Francois Ferveur and colleagues at the Universite de Bourgogne, France, and the University of Manchester, United Kingdom.
When an adult male fruit fly encounters a young male fly, he will actively court the younger individual, sometimes becoming aggressive. These young males that have encountered older flies will go on to similarly dominate other adult males that had encountered only young flies--something in the early experience of the "dominant" flies makes them more aggressive. In the new work, researchers investigated exactly what it is about past experience of these flies that influences adult behavior. Clues caused the researchers to suspect that a key role was played by a chemical signal--a pheromone--carried by adult males during the early encounter.
To prove this, the researches used mutant flies that lack the normal adult pheromones, and they covered these pheromone-defective flies with a variety of other smells. The researchers were able to demonstrate that a male shows courtship dominance behavior over young males if he has been exposed to the smell of normal adult males during a critical period in his life--the first 24 hours. In fact, an encounter with a single adult male was sufficient to make males exhibit dominance behavior when they reached adulthood. The researchers found that, intriguingly, it was not enough for young males to smell these pheromones--the pheromones had to be carried by active adult males. The effect was so strong that males carried on exhibiting courtship dominance behavior until they were five days old.
The authors of the study note that similar findings have been reported in mice and hamsters, suggesting that dominance behavior may often be affected by chemical signals. In future studies, the researchers hope to take the next step in understanding how dominance behavior develops and thereby to identify which parts of the fly's brain are involved in processing dominance-inducing signals.
###
The researchers included Nicolas Svetec and Jean-François Ferveur of the Université de Bourgogne in Dijon, France; and Matthew Cobb of the University of Manchester, Manchester, UK.
Svetec et al.: "Chemical stimuli induce courtship dominance in Drosophila." Publishing in Current Biology Vol 15 No 19, pages R790-792 www.current-biology.com
Adapted from materials provided by Cell Press, via EurekAlert!, a service of AAAS.
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Cell Press (2005, October 12). Past Experience Of Pheromones Induces Dominant Courtship Behavior In Fruit Flies. ScienceDaily. Retrieved March 28, 2009, from http://www.sciencedaily.com /releases/2005/10/051011072615.htm
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#281154 - 03/28/09 11:07 AM Re: if it ain't broke don't fix it.... [Re: Kathryn]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303
Oops, sorry, thought I was posting in the open forum section.


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#281163 - 03/28/09 11:35 AM Re: if it ain't broke don't fix it.... [Re: Kathryn]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
this is all very fascinating..... my opinion is such that i get a sense that the folks who have the biggest problem with this idea, are not evolutionists and humanists, but rather creationists mired in shame based religious moral perspectives from which ironically salvation seems very bleak. like republicans and democrats, ne'er the twain shall meet.

at any rate, sexuality is something that happens to us just as skin, without any prompting on our part, proceeds to grow around and cover our organs holding it all together and keeping it from all falling apart.

what is really beneath people's wailing and gnashing of teeth over having a sexual component to humanness? is it simply an addiction to drama around the whole issue, like not being able to look away from a bad car wreck? i mean who the hell am i beyond the tendency to be over scrupulous about what's between my legs fer pete's sake?

thank god i found the wisdom to escape that mindtrap; in doing so i accept myself completely and unapologeticaly for all the gifts given me, and i have never felt more at peace in my relationship to who/what ever force propelled me through my father's penis into my mothers womb, and nurtured me as a seed which was born into the world to inseminate it with love.

wow i just whacked out there for a moment..... coming back to earth now.... and moving forward ever still.... with my opinion....tucked under my arm....loosely

ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


Top
#281180 - 03/28/09 01:48 PM Re: if it ain't broke don't fix it.... [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
Jim1961 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/10/09
Posts: 1125
Loc: Pa, but likely traveling...
Originally Posted By: Ken Singer, LCSW


I am amazed at the amount of speculation that has emerged from this post. I merely passed on a link I got on another site and had no agenda. I know that folks have a variety of understanding for what "causes" homosexuality and there has been lots said about the other flavors of same sex attraction or fixation with penises.

To set the record straight, I have no interest in the UK site. While I personally/professionally don't think such therapies are effective, I don't want to discourage those who think it will help get rid of unwanted thoughts or behaviors. I wouldn't do it but if others want to, so be it.

I think there is confusion by some who don't understand that sexual arousal and some sexual behaviors are tied into the abuse. This can manifest itself in repetitive fantasies of abuse re-enactments, fixation on penises, acting out with males when under stress, and other thoughts or behaviors that seem to be homosexual in nature but may not actually be.

If it is possible to have a civil discussion about the topic, that would be great. However, it seems that some folks have an ax to grind and it goes into personal attacks or religious issues.

There are a lot of survivors here who are confused as to what their thoughts, feelings and behaviors mean in terms of whether they are heterosexual, homosexual, bi-sexual, or whatever.

Can we have a civil discussion of the issues without speculation or name-calling?


Ken,
I really appreciate your clarification on this issue and focus on civil discussion. Your thread and information on CSA Impact on Sexual Identity is very illuminating to me. For most of my life I had certain "assumptions" about my identity (who I am sexually), now I am re-thinking that premise. I certainly believe that it is a valid topic to discuss and explore, and am thankful for it!

I am still a "new guy" here. For the past 3 weeks I have been immersed in forum post reading, some writing and a HECK of a lot of chatting. I have a feel for the dynamics, but am still new. I certainly recognize the incredible good this site does in giving support to Survivors. I have experienced that first hand and say THANKS to all for helping in my Recovery!

I also know that M/S has a very diverse membership, including those new Survivors that visit M/S everyday. Sadly CSA is widespread and all we have to do to prove that is look at our membership. So age, background, financial status, sexual identity, marital status, nationality, race, religious beliefs, politics, etc. are all over the map.

However, we all share three things: We are male, have Survived CSA and desire to Recover. 99.9% of the posts and interactions I have seen are civil and display mutual respect (frequently, Love!). Wow, that alone is very rare in the Internet 2.0 world! Very impressive for sure!

There are times though where lines get crossed, tempers flare and civility goes out the window. Given the deep emotional scars most of us have, and the sensitive (and perhaps very personal) nature of the subject matter this is not surprising! It is my hope that when this happens, the M/S moderators step in to calm things down. Not an easy task though for sure!

Now, here is my personal observation of this incident. I dislike "studies" of any kind that "prove" (or suggest) conclusions to very complex subjects (like human sexuality). When I see that conclusions are drawn, I assume (rightly or wrongly) that a political agenda is at work. I detest that for many reasons including my own participation in political "activism" many years ago. I also firmly believe (caution: Worldview Ahead) that our make up is influenced by Biological, Environmental and Spiritual factors. Science rarely considers the third.

So when a post is made stating "see there's no doubt about this..." and then a follow-up implying that this conclusion is not debatable and doing so is in violation of M/S's policy, I react with WTF? Wow, does M/S have a political agenda (beyond Survivor advocacy) and what agenda am I actually supporting now that I am a member? Is this part of its Mission? Do I have to be careful about stating my religious/political views because I may be "kicked out?" Hmm, I hope that this was not the intention.

There are two ironies in this for me.

First, two of my closest friends here (I consider them brothers though we have only known each other a short time) are on opposite sides of this discussion. I hope that civility and mutual respect brings them back together.

Second, this is eerily similar to an issue I've been addressing with the Catholic Men's Fellowship at my parish. I felt that we were getting way to far into academic debates regarding Scripture and Tradition of the Church. It was taking away from the main reason I was there, for Fellowship and Friendship! Do we really need to prove/dis-prove scientific studies here at M/S? I'm not saying that this subject does not have a place here, but lets not let it cost us our common brotherhood and, yes, civility.

Sorry I wrote a book about this. I hope that your request for civility is honored. I will do my best for sure.

Jim

_________________________
Loneliness is a power that we possess to give or take away forever. -Yes, Starship Trooper

My Story

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