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#280462 - 03/23/09 10:28 AM Why Do People Abuse?
Clockwise Offline


Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 302
Loc: Pennsylvania
This is a question I have asked myself many times. The answer seems so simple-because they're sick and twisted sub-human beings. But I know it has to me more complicated than that. I also understad the cycle of abuse and that people who are abused are more likely to do it to others. But why? I know you guys aren't psychologists but I just want to know why someone would want to have sex with a child. I've read many of the survivor stories here and sometimes it scares me to think that the man who I walk pass on the sidewalk or see in the market could be going home and molesting and raping his child.

I think about this alot and it just doesn't make sense that a normal guy would want to have sex with a kid. Is there any science to it or is it just plain evil?

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#280463 - 03/23/09 10:32 AM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Clockwise]
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7821
Originally Posted By: Clockwise
people who are abused are more likely to do it to others.


Actually, not so. Known as the "vampire myth", here's some text from the Education link on the main MS page:

Quote:
MYTH - The "Vampire Syndrome" - that is, boys who are sexually abused, like the victims of Count Dracula, go on to "bite" or sexually abuse others.

This myth is especially dangerous because it can create a terrible stigma for the child, that he is destined to become an offender. Boys might be treated as potential perpetrators rather than victims who need help. While it is true that most perpetrators have histories of sexual abuse, it is NOT true that most victims go on to become perpetrators. Research by Jane Gilgun, Judith Becker and John Hunter found a primary difference between perpetrators who were sexually abused and sexually abused males who never perpetrated: non-perpetrators told about the abuse, and were believed and supported by significant people in their lives. Again, the majority of victims do not go on to become adolescent or adult perpetrators; and those who do perpetrate in adolescence usually don't perpetrate as adults if they get help when they are young.




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#280474 - 03/23/09 11:47 AM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Clockwise]
Jethro8 Offline


Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 29




Edited by Jethro8 (07/25/09 08:10 PM)

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#280678 - 03/24/09 10:09 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Clockwise]
Candyman Offline


Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 12
Quote:
This is a question I have asked myself many times. The answer seems so simple-because they're sick and twisted sub-human beings. But I know it has to me more complicated than that. I also understad the cycle of abuse and that people who are abused are more likely to do it to others. But why? I know you guys aren't psychologists but I just want to know why someone would want to have sex with a child. I've read many of the survivor stories here and sometimes it scares me to think that the man who I walk pass on the sidewalk or see in the market could be going home and molesting and raping his child.

I think about this alot and it just doesn't make sense that a normal guy would want to have sex with a kid. Is there any science to it or is it just plain evil?



I often ask myself this too. We are living in strange times. 200 years ago, it was normal for a child to get married, and have kids as soon as they started puberty (13 or 14 y/o), and they would often marry an older man (much older). They didn't seem to suffer any negative psychological effects from this. Today, this would be considered child molestation. I believe that it all comes from what we are programed to believe from the mass media. I believe that there are two truths in the world. One truth that the elite have, and another "truth" that is taught to the masses. The truth that is given to the masses is often warm and fuzzy, and full of bull$hit.



Edited by Candyman (03/24/09 10:12 PM)

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#280685 - 03/24/09 10:36 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Candyman]
myboyhoodfears Offline


Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 457
Quote:
They didn't seem to suffer any negative psychological effects from this. Today, this would be considered child molestation. I believe that it all comes from what we are programed to believe from the mass media


so in essance the only reason why anyone is here is because society's views have made us think that what happend to us was bad for us...and sexual contact between adults and children is not legitimately harmful, except if physical harm was part of the sexual contact?..so it's ok then for a 13 year old boy to have sex with a 45 yearld pedophile if he consents to it?..as long as the society in which he lives thinks its ok then no harm, right?....what if the boy was 4 and society didnt have any taboos against having sex with 4 yearolds? would that be ok as well?

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#280720 - 03/25/09 02:51 AM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Clockwise]
tony2c Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 37
Loc: ny
Dear C

In our society today sex and sexual intimacey has become a matter of fact physical act.
The implications of sex has deep emotional and psychological undertones. It was "designed" to provide for the continuation of the human species. It is not just a physical act it goes well beyond that.
I don't know how many times I've heard people say in response to a survivor of SA "Just get over it" or "move on with your life". It goes to show how ignorant people can be about the consequences of sexual actions.
Humanity as a whole will never be able to understand the why of CSA because they barely understand the implications of being a sexual being ( I was tempted to use the expression sexual animal instead of sexual being no doubt a consequence of my experiencing CSA )

Tony


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#280763 - 03/25/09 12:40 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: tony2c]
Letourski Offline


Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Hey guys,

As a result of the abuse I suffered my feelings about sex are totally scrambled. I agree Tony that sex has an emotional undertone and that it goes well beyond a physical act. Having sex with children is NEVER acceptable because the child is not emotionally/mentally mature enough to know what they may or may not be consenting to. How can you ask a child to consent to something they know nothing about? That's called manipulation and violence.

Candyman

There was a time when society was privy to public executions. Would you say that as a society we should participate in something like that as well? As a species humans evolve both biologically and socially as well. The fact that child molestation was not a crime and even encouraged some 200 years ago is an example of humanity in it's early sociological forms.
At that time there was also many religious persecutions, would you accept that today? The answer is plainly NO you wouldn't. Child molestation is barbaric and cruel, as I said earlier it is NEVER okay to have sex with a child.

Dan

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#280776 - 03/25/09 04:30 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Letourski]
Riley Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/11/09
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Candyman
I often ask myself this too. We are living in strange times. 200 years ago, it was normal for a child to get married, and have kids as soon as they started puberty (13 or 14 y/o), and they would often marry an older man (much older). They didn't seem to suffer any negative psychological effects from this.


I see where you are trying to go with this, but whats to say that those children were not negatively effected. Don`t quote me but I believe physcology was very primitive 200 years ago. Show me a study that says these kids were not negatively effected by this abuse.


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#280781 - 03/25/09 05:50 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Candyman]
JDBook Offline
New Here

Registered: 11/05/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Texas, USA
Just because something was socially acceptable 200 years ago doesn't mean that it wasn't harmful or had negative consequences. 200 years ago in the United States, slavery was legal and, at least in the South, considered socially acceptable. Yet, I think everyone here would agree that slavery was harmful and had many negative consequences and just because it was socially acceptable doesn't mean it isn't wrong.

It may have been socially acceptable for young girls that just entered puberty to be married to older men, but I believe that it had a negative impact on them, even if they couldn't pinpoint the problem or do anything about it because of society at the time.


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#280810 - 03/25/09 08:47 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: JDBook]
Candyman Offline


Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 12
No need to flame me, I was sexually abused as a child also, yet in a different way than most of you. I try to look at things in a non-biased, philosophical way. Forcing any child to do anything sexual against his will, or even consensual, is wrong, and they should be sent to prison for it. Biologically, one would have to ask the question, didn't nature intend for young people this age to marry and reproduce? People are more fertile than they will ever be, when they first start puberty. Of course, in modern times, this would cause overpopulation...Yet in ancient times when their was endless war, the high birth rate would probably make-up for the high death rate caused by war and illness. I think in modern times, kids, and adults, have changed. I will say this... If I was able to have children, I would much rather see my 15 y/o daughter get impregnated by a 40 y/o man that had money, and loved her, than a young 15 y/o punk that smokes pot and wears his hat turned sideways and has a gold tooth in the front of his mouth.


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#280813 - 03/25/09 10:09 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Candyman]
Bewlayb1 Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 241
Loc: NYC
Candyman,

In a way, there might be some validity to your opinion. Consexual sex at fifteen is a lot less harmful than sex at eight. I would even go so far as to say that rape before puberty does more psychological damage than after puberty. Children are not supposed to have sex. It's like a fundamental law of human nature. Break it, and the soul is torn asunder.

However, many societal practices have been abolished because they are destructive. Various societies have engaged in slavery, cannibalism, human sacrifice, etc. The simple fact is: fifteen is too young to marry. I draw from my own family experiences. My grandmother, who was Cuban, was fifteen when she became pregnant and married my grandfather, who was in his twenties. They stayed together for about fifteen years, had five children. My grandmother was beaten regularly by her husband. Their children were also beaten. Now, I have an emotionally scarred, alcoholic mother and four emotionally scarred aunts as a result. To my mind, any older man who marries a fifteen year old is insanely controlling and, in some way, abusive.

At least if a fifteen year old punk marries your daughter, you'll know it's two kids making a stupid mistake. A forty year old would trap your daughter in his possessive clutches, bully her and control her like a child. Sex between a fifteen-year-old and a forty-year-old may not be the worst sin in the world, but it's banned for many good reasons.


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#280814 - 03/25/09 10:27 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Bewlayb1]
Riley Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/11/09
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: candyman
People are more fertile than they will ever be, when they first start puberty.


Please don`t quote me, but I always remember reading that a person was most fertile between 20 and 24, not early teens.

This argument intrigues me, I've put alot of thought into this in the past.


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#280819 - 03/25/09 10:53 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Candyman]
Letourski Offline


Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Hey Candyman,

Well I will say that you have very particular views of sex and children. Thanks for the clarification on a very sensitive issue.

Dan

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#280830 - 03/26/09 12:39 AM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Riley]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Why do tigers sometimes eat their own cubs? Even if molesting children is more natural than we tend to think, it still hurts and even natural things need controlling.

"Why?" is a question often fated to permanent mystery. Something I have to say here though is that even if by some circumstance a sexually mature (post pubescent) child were to have a completely pleasant sexual experience with an adult, or even another child, that child would still be harmed no end because of the social implications of what occurred for that child.

One could argue that it's society's fault, but saying that won't change society or make the experience less hurtful for the child.

Personally I do feel there's something wrong with the notion that at some particular age (well past puberty or the age of sexual awakening) someone is supposed to suddenly be ready for sex on the day they become that age. The argument that minors can't know what they are consenting to is a bit flawed in that the same thing is true of many many things that adults are likely to have them consent to in the course of a normal life.

Where it is true though is the fact that they are very unlikely to be able to comprehend the difficulty they are going to have adjusting in a society that can not even look at gay sex, or sex at all for that matter in a fully rational way.

In a way I guess I'm kind of angry because it seems like 90% of the trauma of my CSA was the result , not of the abuse it's self but of how I was taught to think about the abuse and what it meant about ME. But none of that is about to change any time soon and it in no way excuses the older kid who raped me because he knew what I had been taught and knew the world I would be forced to live in as a rape victim. He might say "Well, it SHOULD have been no big deal!"

But "should" has nothing to do with it! What he SHOULD have been thinking about was what WOULD happen in the REAL world!

I do have to say that I sometimes have lustful thoughts toward people a year or two younger than 18 and I have to say that it seems wrong to me that I should feel like some kind of potential perp for feeling that way, but I'm not about to decide that the laws are wrong and so it's ok to talk a sixteen year old into sex, because that isn't a decision that involves just me!

So in conclusion, I do feel that self-centeredness is a huge factor in perps perping.
I think they justify their actions in ways that don't take their victims into account because for them it's just all about them.

Wow! was that a tirade? didn't mean it to be but it's kinda how it turned out I guess.


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#280839 - 03/26/09 02:02 AM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: blueshift]
nathan555 Offline


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 230
Loc: Australia
Doug
the reason why pre pubity sex is so abhorant is that we were not sexually ready for sex so it became a sexual assult

I guess the 18 age has to do with social maturity - ones mental and willpower capaciy to consent or refuse sex.

there will always be in between years either it be 16 - 18
or whatever. the age has to be conservative to protect slow developers etc. and a consistant age of censent.

When I was molested at 14 I knew what was happening. I braced myself. any pleasure was blocked out by the abuse, the entrapment in a bear hug and the locked door.

When I was molested at 11 I had no conscious awareness of what was happening. I started masturbating that night and had no idea what I was doing.

When I was raped at two it was a total assult on my mind, my body and my soul. The pain was unbearable. the breach of trust riped apart my capacity to trust authority figures.

Doug - sure - your experience may be totally different
but let me assure you it wasn't society who told me it was wrong - I screamed it out to a world who didn't want to know.

Nathan


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#280882 - 03/26/09 12:56 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: nathan555]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Originally Posted By: nathan555
Doug
the reason why pre pubity sex is so abhorant is that we were not sexually ready for sex so it became a sexual assult

I guess the 18 age has to do with social maturity - ones mental and willpower capaciy to consent or refuse sex.

there will always be in between years either it be 16 - 18
or whatever. the age has to be conservative to protect slow developers etc. and a consistant age of censent.

When I was molested at 14 I knew what was happening. I braced myself. any pleasure was blocked out by the abuse, the entrapment in a bear hug and the locked door.

When I was molested at 11 I had no conscious awareness of what was happening. I started masturbating that night and had no idea what I was doing.

When I was raped at two it was a total assult on my mind, my body and my soul. The pain was unbearable. the breach of trust riped apart my capacity to trust authority figures.

Doug - sure - your experience may be totally different
but let me assure you it wasn't society who told me it was wrong - I screamed it out to a world who didn't want to know.

Nathan




Nathan, why do you always seem to be making bad guesses about what I am saying in my posts? You seem to be either reading them too fast or reading "between the lines" things that aren't there.

So once again you are replying to things I did not say.



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#280894 - 03/26/09 02:05 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Clockwise]
Candyman Offline


Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 12
I want to make it clear, that in no way do I support anything sexual with a juvenile. I remember when I was abused, how terrible it was. I'm not allowed to talk about it because the mods believe it violates the terms of service.


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#281054 - 03/27/09 03:00 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Candyman]
DannyT Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 402
This is so interesting. Thanks for starting the train of thought.

My experience is like Doug's: the vast majority of the pain is how I reacted, not the act of the abuse itself. And I think the statistics quoted early on are really important to the question:

"Research by Jane Gilgun, Judith Becker and John Hunter found a primary difference between perpetrators who were sexually abused and sexually abused males who never perpetrated: non-perpetrators told about the abuse, and were believed and supported by significant people in their lives. Again, the majority of victims do not go on to become adolescent or adult perpetrators; and those who do perpetrate in adolescence usually don't perpetrate as adults if they get help when they are young."

The implication is that speaking out and getting help can halt the cycle of abuse. That makes the problem socially conditioned. The secret is the real killer. Maybe people abuse because the secret warps them so massively that behavioral problems arise.

I've been reading a book about relationships in ancient Greece, where older men often had much younger male lovers, apparently without signs of aftermath trauma. To me this goes along with what Candyman was saying, that the abuse can be socially defined. In ancient Greece the boy/man sex had a socially determined form, and understood path of progress, possible benefits to both parties, no rape tolerated, more of a courtship process. I'm just reading this book, not an expert, but it seems there was an expectation that roles would change, that the boy would eventually become the pursuer. These guys typically also had wives. It doesn't seem from Plato anyway that they were too worried about psychological damage. Everything was totally out in the open. And isn't the lack of that real root of so many of our problems?

I think in our time, the fact that the abuse is defined as so horrible as to be worse than murder makes it really hard on our healing. In my heart I believe I would not have suffered any real repercussions if my dad had just talked to me the next day and said, "I'm really sorry, I've got some problems that have nothing to do with you. Please just let it go, and if it bothers you at all, please just talk to me some more."

Danny


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#281058 - 03/27/09 03:29 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: DannyT]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Originally Posted By: DannyT
I've been reading a book about relationships in ancient Greece, where older men often had much younger male lovers, apparently without signs of aftermath trauma. To me this goes along with what Candyman was saying, that the abuse can be socially defined. In ancient Greece the boy/man sex had a socially determined form, and understood path of progress, possible benefits to both parties, no rape tolerated, more of a courtship process. I'm just reading this book, not an expert, but it seems there was an expectation that roles would change, that the boy would eventually become the pursuer. These guys typically also had wives. It doesn't seem from Plato anyway that they were too worried about psychological damage. Everything was totally out in the open.


This is how myths get started, by stating half truths. Pederasty in Ancient Greece was a much more complex socio-politico structure than you what you are referring to here. There was the legislated form of of pedearsty that was proned to be a chaste relationship between a man of substance and standing (a benefactor) in the community and a younger post-pubescent male from a familly of good standing but modest means. The purpose of this relationship was to further the young man's education and to pay for his military training.

And then there was also the lesser form of pederasty (often mocked) that did involve sexual relations that were also legislated. There were practises that were allowed by law and others that were condemned. It was illegal to use the young man 'as one would use a woman' and the man who did could find himself disposessed of his standing.

Plato was a life-long pederast. He also condemned vehemently any form of sexual relations between the man and his young charge. Plato raised the question in many of his writings about the possible damage to his spirit the young man might suffer precisely because of this form of sexual relations that the young man would feel compelled to succumb to because of his depency on his benefactor.

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#281068 - 03/27/09 05:18 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: joelRT]
myboyhoodfears Offline


Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 457
"Pederasty in Ancient Greece "

i wonder with what frequency did the boys who were exposed to sexual reationships with older men grew up to engage in the same behavior in a society that essentually was rather ambivolent about its accptance of the behavior? ...there aparently had to be plenty if there was legislation to control such activities, and aperntly there must have been some concern about the wellfare of the child under these situations.

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#281075 - 03/27/09 06:35 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Candyman]
overcomer4life Offline


Registered: 02/25/09
Posts: 198
Because they're sick bastards who deserve to rot in hell? I'm laughing and serious all at the same time. I still have a bit of letting go to do so let me hush on this one.


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#281076 - 03/27/09 06:52 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: overcomer4life]
ComicBookGuy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/09
Posts: 443
Loc: London, England
Unfortunately one of the other forums I was on before this one asked a similarly "Why is the sky blue" question and I'll give the same answer I gave there - I don't care why, it's happened.

Over-intellectualising this crime seemed to be a nice way to put off having to start healing in the the case of that other forum, forget about WHY, accept what happened and continue healing!

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#281160 - 03/28/09 11:21 AM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: ComicBookGuy]
Survivinguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 310
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: ComicBookGuy
Over-intellectualising this crime seemed to be a nice way to put off having to start healing in the the case of that other forum, forget about WHY, accept what happened and continue healing!


I had been avoiding this thread for a while because the only response I could have come up with is exactly what you post CBG - thanks for saying it out loud when I couldn't bring myself to do the same.

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#281310 - 03/29/09 03:38 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Survivinguy]
DannyT Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 402
While I agree that one has to accept what happened in order to heal, I don't know why it would be a waste to have understanding of the context of the problem. To me this isn't at all like the question "why is the sky blue," it's more the question, "why am I blue?". Since my blueness came about through an interaction with someone else, knowing why he instigated it helps me understand the whole story.

I also wonder how it's possible to heal without really knowing what one is healing from. I don't think my abuse was just getting a blowjob, it was getting the blowjob from a specific person (my dad) at a specific time and place. I have a hard time getting away from it without understanding the whole thing.

For me, I also have a strong desire to see this not happen to others, and wondering why helps me think about how the system works. For me it's part of the process of healing and healing in a broad sense of healing the group, too.

Danny


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