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#280813 - 03/25/09 10:09 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Candyman]
Bewlayb1 Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 241
Loc: NYC
Candyman,

In a way, there might be some validity to your opinion. Consexual sex at fifteen is a lot less harmful than sex at eight. I would even go so far as to say that rape before puberty does more psychological damage than after puberty. Children are not supposed to have sex. It's like a fundamental law of human nature. Break it, and the soul is torn asunder.

However, many societal practices have been abolished because they are destructive. Various societies have engaged in slavery, cannibalism, human sacrifice, etc. The simple fact is: fifteen is too young to marry. I draw from my own family experiences. My grandmother, who was Cuban, was fifteen when she became pregnant and married my grandfather, who was in his twenties. They stayed together for about fifteen years, had five children. My grandmother was beaten regularly by her husband. Their children were also beaten. Now, I have an emotionally scarred, alcoholic mother and four emotionally scarred aunts as a result. To my mind, any older man who marries a fifteen year old is insanely controlling and, in some way, abusive.

At least if a fifteen year old punk marries your daughter, you'll know it's two kids making a stupid mistake. A forty year old would trap your daughter in his possessive clutches, bully her and control her like a child. Sex between a fifteen-year-old and a forty-year-old may not be the worst sin in the world, but it's banned for many good reasons.


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#280814 - 03/25/09 10:27 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Bewlayb1]
Riley Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/11/09
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: candyman
People are more fertile than they will ever be, when they first start puberty.


Please don`t quote me, but I always remember reading that a person was most fertile between 20 and 24, not early teens.

This argument intrigues me, I've put alot of thought into this in the past.


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#280819 - 03/25/09 10:53 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Candyman]
Letourski Offline


Registered: 03/15/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Hey Candyman,

Well I will say that you have very particular views of sex and children. Thanks for the clarification on a very sensitive issue.

Dan

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#280830 - 03/26/09 12:39 AM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Riley]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Why do tigers sometimes eat their own cubs? Even if molesting children is more natural than we tend to think, it still hurts and even natural things need controlling.

"Why?" is a question often fated to permanent mystery. Something I have to say here though is that even if by some circumstance a sexually mature (post pubescent) child were to have a completely pleasant sexual experience with an adult, or even another child, that child would still be harmed no end because of the social implications of what occurred for that child.

One could argue that it's society's fault, but saying that won't change society or make the experience less hurtful for the child.

Personally I do feel there's something wrong with the notion that at some particular age (well past puberty or the age of sexual awakening) someone is supposed to suddenly be ready for sex on the day they become that age. The argument that minors can't know what they are consenting to is a bit flawed in that the same thing is true of many many things that adults are likely to have them consent to in the course of a normal life.

Where it is true though is the fact that they are very unlikely to be able to comprehend the difficulty they are going to have adjusting in a society that can not even look at gay sex, or sex at all for that matter in a fully rational way.

In a way I guess I'm kind of angry because it seems like 90% of the trauma of my CSA was the result , not of the abuse it's self but of how I was taught to think about the abuse and what it meant about ME. But none of that is about to change any time soon and it in no way excuses the older kid who raped me because he knew what I had been taught and knew the world I would be forced to live in as a rape victim. He might say "Well, it SHOULD have been no big deal!"

But "should" has nothing to do with it! What he SHOULD have been thinking about was what WOULD happen in the REAL world!

I do have to say that I sometimes have lustful thoughts toward people a year or two younger than 18 and I have to say that it seems wrong to me that I should feel like some kind of potential perp for feeling that way, but I'm not about to decide that the laws are wrong and so it's ok to talk a sixteen year old into sex, because that isn't a decision that involves just me!

So in conclusion, I do feel that self-centeredness is a huge factor in perps perping.
I think they justify their actions in ways that don't take their victims into account because for them it's just all about them.

Wow! was that a tirade? didn't mean it to be but it's kinda how it turned out I guess.


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#280839 - 03/26/09 02:02 AM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: blueshift]
nathan555 Offline


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 230
Loc: Australia
Doug
the reason why pre pubity sex is so abhorant is that we were not sexually ready for sex so it became a sexual assult

I guess the 18 age has to do with social maturity - ones mental and willpower capaciy to consent or refuse sex.

there will always be in between years either it be 16 - 18
or whatever. the age has to be conservative to protect slow developers etc. and a consistant age of censent.

When I was molested at 14 I knew what was happening. I braced myself. any pleasure was blocked out by the abuse, the entrapment in a bear hug and the locked door.

When I was molested at 11 I had no conscious awareness of what was happening. I started masturbating that night and had no idea what I was doing.

When I was raped at two it was a total assult on my mind, my body and my soul. The pain was unbearable. the breach of trust riped apart my capacity to trust authority figures.

Doug - sure - your experience may be totally different
but let me assure you it wasn't society who told me it was wrong - I screamed it out to a world who didn't want to know.

Nathan


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#280882 - 03/26/09 12:56 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: nathan555]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Originally Posted By: nathan555
Doug
the reason why pre pubity sex is so abhorant is that we were not sexually ready for sex so it became a sexual assult

I guess the 18 age has to do with social maturity - ones mental and willpower capaciy to consent or refuse sex.

there will always be in between years either it be 16 - 18
or whatever. the age has to be conservative to protect slow developers etc. and a consistant age of censent.

When I was molested at 14 I knew what was happening. I braced myself. any pleasure was blocked out by the abuse, the entrapment in a bear hug and the locked door.

When I was molested at 11 I had no conscious awareness of what was happening. I started masturbating that night and had no idea what I was doing.

When I was raped at two it was a total assult on my mind, my body and my soul. The pain was unbearable. the breach of trust riped apart my capacity to trust authority figures.

Doug - sure - your experience may be totally different
but let me assure you it wasn't society who told me it was wrong - I screamed it out to a world who didn't want to know.

Nathan




Nathan, why do you always seem to be making bad guesses about what I am saying in my posts? You seem to be either reading them too fast or reading "between the lines" things that aren't there.

So once again you are replying to things I did not say.



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#280894 - 03/26/09 02:05 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Clockwise]
Candyman Offline


Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 12
I want to make it clear, that in no way do I support anything sexual with a juvenile. I remember when I was abused, how terrible it was. I'm not allowed to talk about it because the mods believe it violates the terms of service.


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#281054 - 03/27/09 03:00 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: Candyman]
DannyT Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 402
This is so interesting. Thanks for starting the train of thought.

My experience is like Doug's: the vast majority of the pain is how I reacted, not the act of the abuse itself. And I think the statistics quoted early on are really important to the question:

"Research by Jane Gilgun, Judith Becker and John Hunter found a primary difference between perpetrators who were sexually abused and sexually abused males who never perpetrated: non-perpetrators told about the abuse, and were believed and supported by significant people in their lives. Again, the majority of victims do not go on to become adolescent or adult perpetrators; and those who do perpetrate in adolescence usually don't perpetrate as adults if they get help when they are young."

The implication is that speaking out and getting help can halt the cycle of abuse. That makes the problem socially conditioned. The secret is the real killer. Maybe people abuse because the secret warps them so massively that behavioral problems arise.

I've been reading a book about relationships in ancient Greece, where older men often had much younger male lovers, apparently without signs of aftermath trauma. To me this goes along with what Candyman was saying, that the abuse can be socially defined. In ancient Greece the boy/man sex had a socially determined form, and understood path of progress, possible benefits to both parties, no rape tolerated, more of a courtship process. I'm just reading this book, not an expert, but it seems there was an expectation that roles would change, that the boy would eventually become the pursuer. These guys typically also had wives. It doesn't seem from Plato anyway that they were too worried about psychological damage. Everything was totally out in the open. And isn't the lack of that real root of so many of our problems?

I think in our time, the fact that the abuse is defined as so horrible as to be worse than murder makes it really hard on our healing. In my heart I believe I would not have suffered any real repercussions if my dad had just talked to me the next day and said, "I'm really sorry, I've got some problems that have nothing to do with you. Please just let it go, and if it bothers you at all, please just talk to me some more."

Danny


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#281058 - 03/27/09 03:29 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: DannyT]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Originally Posted By: DannyT
I've been reading a book about relationships in ancient Greece, where older men often had much younger male lovers, apparently without signs of aftermath trauma. To me this goes along with what Candyman was saying, that the abuse can be socially defined. In ancient Greece the boy/man sex had a socially determined form, and understood path of progress, possible benefits to both parties, no rape tolerated, more of a courtship process. I'm just reading this book, not an expert, but it seems there was an expectation that roles would change, that the boy would eventually become the pursuer. These guys typically also had wives. It doesn't seem from Plato anyway that they were too worried about psychological damage. Everything was totally out in the open.


This is how myths get started, by stating half truths. Pederasty in Ancient Greece was a much more complex socio-politico structure than you what you are referring to here. There was the legislated form of of pedearsty that was proned to be a chaste relationship between a man of substance and standing (a benefactor) in the community and a younger post-pubescent male from a familly of good standing but modest means. The purpose of this relationship was to further the young man's education and to pay for his military training.

And then there was also the lesser form of pederasty (often mocked) that did involve sexual relations that were also legislated. There were practises that were allowed by law and others that were condemned. It was illegal to use the young man 'as one would use a woman' and the man who did could find himself disposessed of his standing.

Plato was a life-long pederast. He also condemned vehemently any form of sexual relations between the man and his young charge. Plato raised the question in many of his writings about the possible damage to his spirit the young man might suffer precisely because of this form of sexual relations that the young man would feel compelled to succumb to because of his depency on his benefactor.

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#281068 - 03/27/09 05:18 PM Re: Why Do People Abuse? [Re: joelRT]
myboyhoodfears Offline


Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 457
"Pederasty in Ancient Greece "

i wonder with what frequency did the boys who were exposed to sexual reationships with older men grew up to engage in the same behavior in a society that essentually was rather ambivolent about its accptance of the behavior? ...there aparently had to be plenty if there was legislation to control such activities, and aperntly there must have been some concern about the wellfare of the child under these situations.

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