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#280030 - 03/19/09 08:46 AM WHO recovers?
Still Offline
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WHO stops self harm?
WHO stays married?
WHO ends the PTSD?
WHO goes on to live a normal life?
WHO can say "I'm now recovered!"

Is it the degree or amplitude of trauma? Or maybe its the character strength of the survivor?

Who gets out of this trench?

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#280039 - 03/19/09 09:35 AM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Still]
Sans Logos Offline
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good question. in my humble opinion 'who' recovers is the person asking 'who'.

also, from my experience, i don't strive to live a normal life, or to be recovered, as in graduate. i don't have those kinds of expectations. all i want is to reconcile the circumstances that caused me to become a separate 'who' in the first place and to dwell peacefully within the shell of my own skin.

to become a whole 'who' eclipsing the fragmented 'who' of earlier life stages. i know everyone is different, but until i stopped living the perspective of the former 'who' i could not become a new one. until i stopped reinforcing the brain circuitry of old belief patterns by not investing in them any longer, it would not be possible to reimprint them with new beliefs.

i wanted to hang on for dear life to the old comfortable, predictable familiar. i wanted to be righteously angry for a long time: how dare you take away my teddy bear anger!!!! but eventually that became an increasingly toxic cul de sac, that led nowhere but back to more pain and suffering.

i am blest that have i've felt unentrenched for a long time now, and my life has proceeded to be lived out of new solution i am devising for myself today.

what a wonderful opportunity i have been given to erase the effects of old imprints, and create new ones that serve the needs and desires of 'who' i am today. i don't consider myself a character of strength, but i do consider myself a survivor, and maybe that's the same thing.

who knows?

thanks for the topic rob.

ron

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#280042 - 03/19/09 10:18 AM ... [Re: Sans Logos]
St3v3n Offline


Registered: 11/26/08
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...


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#280049 - 03/19/09 11:53 AM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Sans Logos]
joelRT Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sans Logos
all i want is to reconcile the circumstances that caused me to become a separate 'who' in the first place and to dwell peacefully within the shell of my own skin.

There is a period at the end of this statement. It speaks loudly to me, the statement itself, yes, but most importantly the period. When I do finally attain this much in my own recovery - I'm gonna call that recovered, period!

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#280052 - 03/19/09 12:07 PM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: joelRT]
Still Offline
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Holy Lord Ron!

You articulated SO much SO well. I hope you dont mind me bringing this to group tonight to read to the guys. There's a grand toolbox to healing in our own abilities and choices in your essay. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

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#280126 - 03/19/09 10:19 PM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Still]
Sans Logos Offline
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go for it robbie, i'm glad i helped. thanx blush

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#280129 - 03/19/09 11:18 PM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Sans Logos]
myboyhoodfears Offline


Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 457
Quote:
but until i stopped living the perspective of the former 'who' i could not become a new one. until i stopped reinforcing the brain circuitry of old belief patterns by not investing in them any longer, it would not be possible to reimprint them with new beliefs.


good lord what a proundly insightful thing that statement is...i have long known this is my problem...and i just cant swim my way out though.

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#280146 - 03/20/09 06:23 AM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Sans Logos]
mike5 Offline
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Registered: 08/01/07
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Thanks for bringing this up Rob - and thanks for your words Ron. Good stuff for me to read this morning!

Mike


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#280178 - 03/20/09 02:35 PM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: myboyhoodfears]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Rob,

I think it is those who truely will look at themselves honestly.

Mbhf,

At those times in life when we cannot swim out. Why not relax, float and let the current take us to safty.

Ron,

Your wisdom as always speaks for itself.

Mike

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#280362 - 03/22/09 07:48 AM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: michael banks]
Still Offline
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I just had a MAJOR MAJOR setback as result of the people that infest the surface of this planet. This time there pus was directed toward my 10yo son and was not CSA. But fuck them, fuck people, fuck any society. FUCK EM ALL! This place is shit!

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#280365 - 03/22/09 09:05 AM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Still]
joelRT Offline
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Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
This place is shit!

Yeah perhaps, but the men of MS are not. Talk to us Robbie, c'mon man, let us in.............

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#280372 - 03/22/09 10:32 AM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Still]
Still Offline
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My 10yo son got bullied by a gang of older boys (sound familiar?)

I went nuke on them.

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#280373 - 03/22/09 10:46 AM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Still]
joelRT Offline
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Shit Robbie, I'm sorry. Life really can and sadly often does suck for a kid. Don't we all just know.......

I don't know what exactly you mean by "I went nuke on them" but I'm sure that you were only wanting to protect your kid.

My question, however, is how does having Dad stick up for him, teach him to defend himself?

How is he going to learn what his personal abilities are and when does he get to discover where his strengths are if he's hiding behind you?

Please don't mis-undersatnd me here Robbie, OK? I think it's awesome that your son got to see that he can count on his Dad when times are tough and I certainly wish that I myself had had that when I was growing up. I'm only just wondering if through all of this your son has also learned something valuable about himself that will serve him and his life when you can't be there to deal in his stead.

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#280406 - 03/22/09 08:45 PM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: joelRT]
Still Offline
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SIx to one requires that I get involved, especially with today's ultra violent youth. A pack of six who think its fun to do what they did to ONE can go fuck themselves. The lesson of six-on-one can fuck itself. I refused to see it happen again (or at all).

Lessons aside, priorities take over.

May just go ahead and sue for assault anyway.

EDIT: Did i mention they were all older?

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#280444 - 03/23/09 03:15 AM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Still]
Ikelives Offline
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My teeth are clenching, I feel such tremendous anger at this moment. Sue them and what ever else you can do. As for learning, last time I looked out the window, it did not look like the Surengetty and if we have people that want to act like baboons, they belong in zoos. If someone needs to learn something, it's the baboons, not Robbie's son or any other child.

I question this thing about a child learning from bullying for another reason. Is it truely for his benefit. It sounds so noble.
But can it not be an excellent way to excuss ourselves from having to be involved, to take any kind of action, to relieve any guilt we may feel. Is it for his benefit or ours?

I think it may be clear that I am one that was permitted to learn under virtually every case how to survive. My temper that scares even me was what made me first seek counselling.

Take care of yourself Robie and your son.


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#280446 - 03/23/09 04:11 AM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Ikelives]
joelRT Offline
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It saddens me to see how my concern for a child's wellbeing has been so grossly mis-interpreted by my brother survivors.

Is this all that we can be? Angry, violent men who unconcionnably perpetuate the violence that was done to us?

And if so, then I am ashamed to call myself a survivor......

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#280453 - 03/23/09 08:26 AM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: joelRT]
Still Offline
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My verbal-only chastisement of the leader of the baboons triggered all sorts of scurrying of their rat parents. Not ONE ever asked how my son was doing, but they some EMAILED me to ask why I spoke to their kids. BTW: He wont go outside without me being out there.

Is anger and its behaviour wrong Joel? I as this in a sincere mode. What are you suggesting I do (shd have done)?

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#280457 - 03/23/09 09:08 AM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Still]
Still Offline
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I actually believe mad-dog children are a norm today.

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#280459 - 03/23/09 09:56 AM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Still]
Ikelives Offline
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We look at this differantly Joel. To me, a child's education through violence is not the way. You may have heard of death by bullying and how many suicides. There has to be a better way than survival of the fittest.

I do understand that we have heard this way of dealing with the problem all our lives, but like many other things, I believe this is one more belief that we need to leave in the past.

There are school systems that are dealing with bullying now. I understand that their methods are effective. Bullying can only exist if the community says it can. Some communities have said enough.


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#280460 - 03/23/09 10:23 AM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Ikelives]
joelRT Offline
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This not only got mis-understood but also blown way out of proportion in relationship to what I said.

Next time I'll just shut up and let you bullies win - I for one, throw in the towel!

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#280751 - 03/25/09 11:24 AM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: joelRT]
myboyhoodfears Offline


Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 457
i was bullied in school all the way untill high school...i was miserable i didnt learn anything from it other than kids are cruel and society turns a blind eye for the very same reasons they trun a blind eye sexual abuse...."male socialization" ...men and boys cant be weak we cant be victims...we cant cry and that we are in control and are complicate in every thing that happens to us, of course we know all that is a lie....the bullies might teach us something things about human nature,....ok so i now know people are fucked up....did i have to learn that by being bullied and sexual abused and neglected etc?..couldnt someone have just given me a list to memorize...lol...

i agree joelRT that a certain level of adversity teachs us to be indipendant etc....but what but do bullies really teach us about ourselves and about the world around us?....are we really learning a vauled lesson from them?...or have we just come to accept bullying as a part of life and are trying to place some value on their acts because we are unable or unwilling to stop them from occuring?....am i a stronger person becaues i was bullied?...no actually im not.

i had a coworker who was a bully,... he was able to induce these feelings of panic and of rage in me that is hard to explain, it took me right back to bing a kid,...im not crazy over this im just saying that bullies teach us the worse about human nature...im just not so sure that lesson isnt better learned in a history class...over having to actually endure it.

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#280768 - 03/25/09 02:01 PM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: myboyhoodfears]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
I believe that having to deal with bully's is a fact of life growing up. I know that I had my own and I remember him and his name to this day. And they always have their gang of followers.
Even as adults you have to deal with such people you will find them where ever you go in life. So we need to learn to effectively deal with them as best as possible. With some people you have to learn to walk away and to leave them alone to their own miserable behaviors and attitudes.
I think it would have been more productive if the authorities(cops)had been informed of these childrens behaviors and said behavior could have been documented. So that if these behaviors conitue it can be bit in the ass. Also would have been more effective if the issue of bullying had been present to the parents by the police. Now as it stands it is a your kid against my kid thing and parent against parent thing.
Plus you put yourself in extreme risk of your own arrest and being sue if you had step over the line emotionally or physically towards them.
We need to be careful when issues from our past effect how we act in situations today.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#280774 - 03/25/09 04:07 PM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: michael banks]
sportinrucks Offline
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I can relate I was bullied all through high school and grade school. Then I joined the miltary to pay for college and was bullied there which honestly led to my drug abuse and almost led to an incodent where I was close to pulling a knife on one of my ''fellow soldiers''. I was bullied by my girlfriends. I dont know right now I have alot of pent up rage about that, I have nightmares about these times really.


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#280775 - 03/25/09 04:20 PM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: sportinrucks]
sportinrucks Offline
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idk boxings a good thing or maybe a blunt object then the bully is not laughing so hard when he's spitting up blood


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#280804 - 03/25/09 07:40 PM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: sportinrucks]
Still Offline
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six 12yos on one 10 yo. Even that will turn against the 10yo if he wins the fight. Parents and law have NO tollerance for any weapons used. I know that one personally.

I cut a kid at age 8. He was 12 and it was after the rape by four 12 yos. I was the universal bad-kid of the neighborhood for the remainder of my life there.

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#280977 - 03/27/09 12:23 AM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Still]
Logan Offline
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Registered: 04/05/03
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Look, I don't know how this topic got so....lost.

from what rob initially stated, it sounds to me like he acted appropriately from a variety of standpoints.

First and foremost, He chose to act in the role he is supposed to play, the Protective Parent. A (good) Father Protecting His Son!

Given the situation from the data stated (as I was not there), this seems to be the perfect example of what TO DO, in such a situation.

Now, was Rob angry/emotional about this? Of Course he was! what responsible parent would not be?---Not to mention Rob's own personal past and history with thing he himself experience firsthand!
A Group/Mob of older kids teaming up on a single younger child with malicious intention of hurting that child, the first priority is the saftey and welfare of the child in harms way; stopping the immediate threat in that situation by protecting the child potential jeopardy. Then access the child's Physical and Emotional state. Then when the situation has deescalated to where the safety and emotional well being of the child (or any victim for that matter) are not compromised, only then should on consider possible reproaching the situation for any other reason. There is a time for life lessons, but sometimes immediate action in warranted above all else!

Joel, I think that your statement was completely blown way out of proportion because of the emotional intensity that was triggered by what rob said and I feel sorry that that happened.

Rob, thank you that you sharing this, and I am happy to hear about the way that you responded. I am sure that you are a great dad!

Logan

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#281072 - 03/27/09 06:29 PM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Logan]
sojourn111 Offline


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 86
Loc: midwest
Rob,
I have 3 boys 12,10 and 7. I applaud your handling of the situation. If we didn't have the past influencing our view maybe we could handle that situation a bit more like margaret thatcher negotiating a peace treaty BUT we know how the real world is. Bravo that you didn't cross a line. You probably have some, some opportunity to impact those homes. I have found more often than not that parents are seldom actively parenting and molding their kids. Otherwise bullying doesn't happen. My wife teaches and works in education and we run kids programs for community and church. We see the worst and it is overpowering the best in our society. We need to be aggressive and loving as we push back the failing boundaries of our social values.
When I was 14 I was assaulted and bulied. Nothing was done to the kid, until I found him a year later. Now at 6'00" 225lbs and full of rage I destroyed him emotionally with fear right before I broke him piece by piece physically. My anger - no sense of justice, preservation or safety. You gave your kid that and he will love you and respect you and grow from what you teach into that. Would love to have a neighbor like you!


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#281079 - 03/27/09 07:13 PM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: mike5]
nathan555 Offline


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 230
Loc: Australia
I should be wiser than to write a short note when time pressured on such an issue with all its complexities and therefore I may edit my post later. My thoughts are:

Who recovers:

Those who want to.
Those who resolve to
Those who recognise we can't do it on our own
Those who recognise that some battles are between God and the devil and Jesus Christ has won.
Those who recognise that the appropriation of Jesus victory takes time - its not a quick fix.
The book of Exodus and Job (Old Testament) show the length and complexity of the recovery process.
The book of Romans shows redemption is not a quick fix.

Those who understand their mind, will, emotions, sexuality and body.

Those who recognise our weaknesses

Those who believe that recovery is attainable and persevere.

those who recognise that the dominant school of thought amongst psychologists , as per Ken Singer's post
is that those who told us their understanding could help us,
as it does,
do not believe the goal of sexual wholeness we seek is possable.
their unbelief, their discreditation of programmes for sexual wholeness their could well be the wall which many of us find so frustrating. I personally feel betrayed - like going to a Dentist
who doesn't believe permanent fillings are of any use
so he drills out the decay but only puts in a temporary filling
which he later replaces with another temporary filling.


Who recovers?

those who believe recovery is possible but recognise its complexities and persevere overcoming intrnal and external resistance

Nathan


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#281882 - 04/01/09 11:25 PM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Still]
nomansanisland Offline
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wow robbie brown , you made me cry so hard. God Bless you and keep you in his arms forever. nomansanisland.

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#281883 - 04/01/09 11:33 PM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: nomansanisland]
nomansanisland Offline
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the pictures of your youth , made me remember, this christmas, my abuser , pointed to a picture in our family album , and pointed out a boy that he knows ( or think he knows) i acted out with. made his discusting remark that only he and i would get...it hurt so bad, i felt my skin crawl, as those were bad times, funny thing abuser was in the photo too. how dare him... pervert was in the picture too. he knows what he did and wanted to make me out as some kind of faggot. God why? when does this end? why do the good die and the truly evil live to torture. where is my justice. ? only my shame? so wrong and so hurtful. I am still waiting for the Lord to take him in the worst way . God forgive me. nomansanisland

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#282180 - 04/04/09 01:16 AM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: nomansanisland]
coaster Offline


Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 18
Rob, you did an amazing thing! You got angry and protective. You stood up for your son. BUT you stopped it there. You drew a line and didn't cross it. All for the sake of your son, and your need to make sure he ALWAYS has a dad THERE for him. He MUST Be SO happy now--must have a secret fierce pride!!! Wish I'd had a dad standing up for me when I was a boy, like you stood up for your son.


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#282342 - 04/05/09 12:30 PM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: Still]
GregH Offline


Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 4
Loc: Texas
Robbie and Ron

I would like to thank both of you for this message..

Robbie for having the courage to post it... I am way new at this and the thing that is scarring me the most is? " What if after all this has come out, and I have shared it with my wife my theripist, and relived it all over again! What if I cant be helped, what then." Take that initial interview with my T has brought back so much crap to me it is sickening. My wife keeps saying everything will come out all right, and I can tell she hopes it will. God only knows what she will do if it dosnt. Point is I have been wondering myself the WHO? Questions as well. Funny thing everyone says get Help and you can live a normal life.... What if I dont honestly know what normal is! I have never had what I read to be a normal life. And so far all the T session has done for me is make things so much worse.

So thank you Robbie for having the courage, anger, strength, what ever it was to post your msg:

WHO stops self harm?
WHO stays married?
WHO ends the PTSD?
WHO goes on to live a normal life?
WHO can say "I'm now recovered!"

Is it the degree or amplitude of trauma? Or maybe its the character strength of the survivor?

Who gets out of this trench?


Ron

Thank you so much as well...

Your statement of:

i don't strive to live a normal life, or to be recovered, as in graduate. i don't have those kinds of expectations. all i want is to reconcile the circumstances that caused me to become a separate 'who' in the first place and to dwell peacefully within the shell of my own skin.

to become a whole 'who' eclipsing the fragmented 'who' of earlier life stages.

My God that speaks to me in so many ways. I cant strive for normal if I have never had it I cant get it back, and if I dont truely know it, how can I attain it. Its like setting a goal for me to obtain and live a " Normal Life " is this fairy tale. And it disheartens me when I see it stated so often the " I want to have a NORMAL LIFE " statement. Or I just want to be normal. I just started seeing a theripist and honestly my expectations of theropy helping me before I went were like finally I can get help!! My wife of 21 years finding out what happened to me as a child, though sooooo embarassing and though I was scared to death of how she would react. Freed me to openly reach out for help finaly, to get a T and to see if I can be helped. Her exact words after finding out were, Honey you need to get help.
And I thanked God that she feels in her heart that I can be helped. After the interview I left that office and cried for first time in 30 years, I couldn't stop crying, I couldnt go home so I parked in WalMart lot for 4 hours crying. I was so hurt and so affraid, and so lost, thinking to myself my God what have I done! And now the nightmares are back, the fear is back, the pain is worse then ever, the shame, guilt, and over all feeling of helplessness, the uges, and worst of all the physical sickness I feel when I sit down at my own table to eat my dinner at night is back! And I am asking myself. Is this better? Is this what is considered living as a survivor? If it is I dont want to survive!

You all the answers to my questions in your relply to Robbie. I dont want normal, I want a free me. And that is what I will now look forward too, on this path of healing, to free myself of the WHO I was and Openly and Freely become the WHO I am...

Sorry so wordy.....

And thank both of you sooooo much.....

Sincerely

GregH


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#282354 - 04/05/09 01:11 PM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: GregH]
Freedom49 Offline
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Registered: 12/30/07
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I just saw this thread and the initial question caught me. I look at my life and in many ways I got off easier than many of you here. My faith in God has been a mainstay of my recovery and my life. But more than that I think I WANTED to heal. I did eveything everyone suggested as a possible avenue of healing. I jumped through some pretty silly hoops but eventually I realized it was up to me. I beleive you can do anything you want to do if you want it bad enough. That is just me. I realize there may be notable exceptions but bottom line I WANTED it bad enough.

This road has led to some pretty unpleasant discoveries about myself, my motives, my fears, and my laziness. Eventually and with some terrific help I was able to work through a lot of that. I am still working, I am still in process of growing up and becoming a man. The answers are out there. They are not hard to find but applying them to your life is the biggest step of all. Knowledge will free you but you have to use that freedom to make positive changes that you discover you need to make. That is were courage comes in.

Good luck.


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#282363 - 04/05/09 01:45 PM Re: WHO recovers? [Re: GregH]
Sans Logos Offline
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Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
greg, glad you are here, and i am glad i met you in chat the other day. stay strong BROTHER; you are not alone any longer. it gets better as it gets worse, believe it or not! ain't that a kick in the head?

ron

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  2. ReClaiming Now
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