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#277376 - 02/27/09 01:20 AM Re: Pretending to hate it. *triggers* sensitive topic [Re: Trucker51]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Originally Posted By: Trucker51
What is unusual about your post to me is your identification with your rape fantasies and your seeming inability to enjoy healthy consensual adult intimacy.



sick frown

I guess all I can say is that you don't understand. I don't think I can explain it to you so that you will.

I will say that, regardless of what I have said or how it sounded, I do NOT want to rape or be raped. Never will.

You make me sound like a real sicko...someone really creepy who you wouldn't want around children or any other vulnerable person or animal.

I am not that. I am just someone who was so heavily shamed by the fact that I had an errection that I now have to think of something I love, sex, in terms of something I hate, rape, in order to avoid something I hate even worse...feeling dirty and sick...kind of like I feel now.

But what I do in my head to enables me to have normal, and, yes, I would say HEALTHY sex, since both parties are able to enjoy it,..just in a way that is different from the norm.

yes,...the hole is definitely deeper now. I want to crawl into it and die now. I know this is impossible to understand and I'm giving up now. I was supposed to enjoy sex tonight but that won't happen now. I'm too upset by this pile of nasty misunderstanding that I can't undo and is triggering the hell out of me. I guess I just give up now.



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#277379 - 02/27/09 01:39 AM Re: Pretending to hate it. *triggers* sensitive topic [Re: blueshift]
nathan555 Offline


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 230
Loc: Australia
warning triggers and more triggers

Blueshift
I think I understand where you are coming from.
Sex is a gift as part of us as created beings.

Those of us who were raped in our childhood were denied the opportunity to enter our years of sexual activeness
in purity

we were violated
we have horrible memories
no one told us how to handle thee memories of pain and violation
so like someone with a broken leg without physiotherapy
we over compensated
how normal

and...

when that b*st**d perp forced himself on me
he gouge out a grove
a same sex association I did not want, did not ask for
it's there but it's not my doing
I refuse to take ownership of it
but I battle it's presence
until I find a way of negating it
or replacing it.

now I can expect some interesting replies

blueshift - it's hard but don't give up

and
as men our hardest battle is not to crawl into a cave and hide

but when we do let us take stock and restrategise

sex between consenting adults is pleasurable
the battle is to get the painful memories from csa out of the way

I have confidence sex is powerful enough to push aside the pain of the past to release pleasure

just don't let the painful memories pose as guilt after the orgasism

Nathan


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#277392 - 02/27/09 09:09 AM Re: Pretending to hate it. *triggers* sensitive topic [Re: blueshift]
christianfather Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 116
Loc: TN
I do understand. I have always felt that my penis betrayed me during the rape because I got erections during the rapes as painful and degrading as it was. I spent my whole life punishing it for the betrayal. It made me feel dirty and like I enjoyed it or wanted it when I didn't.


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#277400 - 02/27/09 10:00 AM Re: Pretending to hate it. *triggers* sensitive to [Re: christianfather]
DannyT Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 402
Doug,

I thought of something that might be useful to you if you hadn't tried it before. The thing that most gets in my way in healing is the inner voice that arises both as words and as images. If you were to try having sex without either of those things, would it help? I think of this as mindfulness, really being in the present moment. You could ask the other person if they would mind if you both tried to express everything without words and through the body. Let the expressions of happiness and excitement come through physical response. The body can speak, too. Then you could concentrate 100 % on the sensation and neither of you would have to worry about whether the other was experiencing pleasure. You'd know it by the feel of the experience. We don't have to tell each other things in words or paint pictures to know what's going on. You'd also be helping the other person experience the present more fully by letting them get out of the verbal thinking zone and into the pure sensation of the moment.

Danny



Edited by DannyT (02/27/09 10:02 AM)

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#277403 - 02/27/09 10:03 AM Re: Pretending to hate it. *triggers* sensitive topic [Re: blueshift]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
i think you could look at this in any number ways.

it's the old 'one man's ceiling is another man's floor' dichotomy. i guess it depends on what stage of the development process you got stalled [or were already stalled in] in at the time of the abuse, and how it twisted all your wires to confuse the circuitry.

for me, all of my incidences of abuse in my mind were rape. the first perp, an older brother tricked me into being sexual with him [i had no prior knowledge or interest in sex at the time; not even healthy inquisitiveness]. then in the navy my other situations of rape i was again boxed into a moment where non-compliance was not an option. the most severe of my rapes was at knifepoint. needless to say, today i do not respond well to being 'expected' to perform at all.

every relationship that i got into after those incidences, sex was the ticket of entry into the relationship. but as the relationships proceeded over time, after the dues were paid, sex became a formality, and subsequently always felt pressured. because of my earliest experiences with sex, all i could do was react against the idea. of course every single relationship that i ever got into, was entered into prematurely before trust had been established. it seemed that i was merely replacing the trusted relationship with an older brother and transferring it onto the new 'next ex' thinking that we would just pick up where the relationship with the brother ended. didn't happen that way though, cause soon enough i began to realize that the trust was not there, and everything began to feel as if i was just being used primarily as an object, to which i object.

next question: why was being 'used as an object' something that offended my sensibilities? for me, that is the real question.

i mean so many people are able to just say 'yea, sex! good idea!'. but not for me. i think they are so unabashedly open to the idea of adult 'play' because they successfully passed through the basic needs phase unscathed, the anal phase of development, and so moving into a new sphere of social interactivity involving sexual bartering systems and techniques was a natural stage. for me, since i was stuck in a prior stage, to have that next level thrust upon me prematurely would be like trying to walk with 2 broken legs. i still just wanted my mommy, because i had not had that need met by the age of 12/13 when the sexual history started.

i guess it depends on what stage of the development process you got stalled in at the time of the abuse, and how it twisted all your wires to confuse the circuitry.

from your posts, i see you as a person who had transcended the basic needs stage, and who had moved quite successfully beyond the oral stage, and got fixated at a later stage because of your later experiences with sex.

correct me if i am w-ron-g.

at any rate, now, the job remains for you to find a way to eclipses the fixation that somehow got installed at the time of your abuse.

i hate to say this but the only way to equalize the issue IS to be at a place where there is willingness to talk about things. i mean, also allow yourself to be open to role playing where there is no talking, but be open to candid discussion as well.

[sorry have to finish now because i was interrupted as i was tying this and i lost my focus...we'll discuss further in other forms...]

ron



Edited by Sans Logos (02/27/09 10:14 AM)
Edit Reason: argh!
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#277432 - 02/27/09 12:29 PM Re: Pretending to hate it. *triggers* sensitive topic [Re: christianfather]
Survivinguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 310
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: christianfather
I have always felt that my penis betrayed me during the rape because I got erections during the rapes as painful and degrading as it was....It made me feel dirty and like I enjoyed it or wanted it when I didn't.


I had flashbacks or realizations or whatever the hell it should be called about this in the last week. I'm just numb about it for now and as much as I've hated reading all the posts on this thread - it has been helpful, painful and helpful.

Thanks for your expression here CF.

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#277464 - 02/27/09 05:15 PM Re: Pretending to hate it. *triggers* sensitive topic [Re: Survivinguy]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
First of all this is long, and bitter and full of triggers and general unpleasantness so please be forewarned.



I'm sorry that I got so overtriggered by one reply last night that I didn't give due respect to the other supportive replies. I do get that there are some here who do understand somewhat where I was coming from.

I'm focused now enough to know that behind my getting upset was my rage at the confusing unfairness of the whole story:

First I was taught that sex is icky and bad, then I was introduced to it by force and then, as I thought at the time, was exposed as someone who secretly liked it, and not just sex but homosexual sex which was the worst (supposedly).

Then I grow up and learn that that was a load of hooie, and that most people like sex and many of them like homosexual sex and that to fit in I must like it too. (sex, I mean--sex in general)

Well, fortunately I did like both straight and gay sex, but my shame about that fact was part of me by then and it still is and probably always will be.

But another aspect is the way sex, straight and gay has become so narrowly defined as to what constitutes normal healthy sex that a person seems to be a freak if they do not behave just so during the process, smiling and making eye contact, and saying happy loving things to each other the whole time.

Personally, I feel that, where this may be fine and natural for some, there should be no set standards like this as what everyone must conform to in order to be considered normal and healthy sexually.

I don't know what it's like for women, but for me as a bottom, sex is very uncomfortable, and if it wasn't, it wouldn't be fun, and it wouldn't be sex.

But this is that big taboo secret about life that so many people are in denial of: ambiguity. How can being uncomfortable be fun? Well, maybe it isn't "fun". or "pleasurable". Maybe these words are just words we try to make fit like square pegs in (no pun intended)(seriously, no pun intended) round holes.

It's just possible that humans actually have the capacity to ENJOY PAIN! Since it seems fairly obvious to me that life is at least fifty percent pain, I find it strange that this ability is so widely considered an unhealthy affliction.

Be that as it may, I feel we who use the English language are crippled by a lack of vocabulary regarding our feelings. We have the word love, but there are many different kinds of love and we are supposed to always be able to just guess which kind of love it is when someone says "I love you".

Now that fact is obvious, but something no one dares talk about is that there are different kinds of enjoyment as well. Enjoying good food, or the company of a loved one is one kind of enjoyment. Watching a tragedy movie or a watching out the window on a dark stormy night is another kind of enjoyment. A feeling of uncomfortable pressure and friction in a place you're not used feeling such things is another kind of enjoyment.

We should have different words for these different kinds of love and different kinds of pleasure, but we just have "love" and "pleasure". Does this keep things simple? I don't think so.

It's like organizing your shelves by putting everything in containers that all look alike and nothing to tell them apart. THAT sure makes everything easy to find!

So am I confused? YEAH!I'm confused! and who isn't! This is why people can't wrap their mind around enjoying pain---it seems like a contradiction of terms BECAUSE IT IS!

You can't "enjoy pain" it isn't enjoyment, when you "enjoy pain", it's something else you are feeling that there are no words for save "masochism" but that is a "perversion" and only THOSE people, we are to believe, can "enjoy pain".

I can't speak for everyone, but in all the different categories of feelings that fall under the word "enjoyment" only some of them make me feel like smiling. Sex is not one of them for me.
Maybe afterward I might give a "whew, that was great!" smile, but during sex, especially if I'm being bottom, I don't feel like smiling! Does that mean I hate it? No!

The problem is we're bound up in this language oversimplified reality that doesn't allow us to just let things be what they are! We have to categorize everything into an inadequate language, and then pretend it all makes sense because if you think it doesn't your a freak!

So I grow up learning about how sex, though somehow acceptable in a very strict set of conditions, is generally something shameful to be avoided, then I have it foisted on me and am told I like it which makes me a freak, and then I grow up and in order to not be a freak I must now eagerly jump into bed with people and have sex with a big happy grin on my face the whole time saying "oh, yes, oh yes, isn't this lovely! I love it so much!".

So to even come close to accomplishing this unnatural adaptation to changing arbitrary rules, I employ the use of my imagination to pretend I'm being raped--not like it was after I was informed that I was a fag who would probably go to hell, but minutes before that when I was able to indulge in the whole victim role that I was still allowed to take. At that time I was not responsible, or complicit in any way so I could cry and "enjoy" (for lack of better word) crying and "enjoy" the amazing new feelings brought to me on the wings of pain and discomfort.

And I will admit it,(at this point there's nothing else I haven't admitted here at ms,) it was awsome! until he spotted my boner and told me what that "means".

Then it was a hundred foot drop straight to nausia and wanting to crawl into a peanut shell in the bottom of a dumpster and die.

I guess if I had been raped by a woman and "liked it", I would have had "bragging rights". But I was raped by a boy and "liked it" and that meant I was a filthy disgusting pervert hated in the sight of god and doomed to hell.

So the smiling and ohing and ahing during sex is WAY too triggering to try to do and to have sex at all, I have to pretend I'm being forced to do it. Or if I am topping I pretend one or both of us is being forced.

That way, in my head, at least, I'm not guilty of any perversion and I can think of myself as more of a martyr than a pervert. And it makes sense that having been an 11 or 12 yo boy getting raped, I WAS a martyr and if I want to continue to feel like one I should have a right to to some extent.

But no, my attempt to have normal sex by using a ficticious rape scenario in my head makes me, ..guess what!...A PERVERT! How didn't I see that comming! That seems to be my destiny; first to be a pervert for liking homosexual sex, then to be a pervert for not appearing to like sex the way I'm supposed to, and then to be a pervert for trying to like sex the way I'm supposed to.

Any way I go I'm a pervert. Fortunately I haven't hurt anyone (that didn't ask me to), and haven't been locked up yet. At least not for being a pervert.

I'm TIRED of being a "pervert"! I'm NOT a pervert! The assholes who raped me were/are perverts and if I have trouble adjusting to the contrived table manners ritual that people have come to think of as "healthy" sex, and have to do some more mind twisting to appear normal, then ok, I'm different just like we all are.

I know this is another long rant..sorry but I hope it sheds some light on why it irritates me so much to have my interest in bdsm and my need to "fantasize" about rape (though I still insist that is NOT what I'm doing- but can not possibly explain better than I have already,) become part of a category of negative behaviors like IV coke.

Ok I'm done now. Am I in china yet, or do I need to keep digging this hole? mad













Edited by blueshift (02/27/09 05:30 PM)
Edit Reason: complete sentence
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#277476 - 02/27/09 05:43 PM Re: Pretending to hate it. *triggers* sensitive topic [Re: blueshift]
DannyT Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 402
Doug,

I really feel for you, your pain and hurt. I relate to so many of these feelings. The whole sense of difference in general leads to a feeling of 'perversion.' I typically live a celibate life. People think that is crazy. Or weird, incomprehensible. Not 'normal'. But for me, it is totally OK. I'm not the lonely recluse they may imagine (it doesn't help the common opinion that I live way out in the woods either! wink ). I find my intimacy with my friends, with nature around me. It's very fulfilling, and I don't feel lonely (as people assume I do).

I used to be defensive about these things. Now I just smile at other people's lack of vision of the variety of experience possible in the human condition.

I'm also a middle aged guy who likes to skateboard. This may seem like a non sequitur, but when I go to a skatepark, the parents start calling their kids in and warning them to stay away from me, because they think I'm a child molester out to get their babies. Talk about perverts! They would run from me if they could. And here I am just another skater wanting to be with the rest of my people. It may sound stupid, but I love skating more than just about anything else I know. So it hurts. And since I was abused, I can't think of anything I'd hate more than to have people see me that way. I would never hurt anyone like that.

So in my own way I can totally relate to what you're saying.

After reading your message, I would never even begin to think of you as a pervert. Not for a minute.

I just see another human being trying to live his own life in the face of a very boring 'normalcy' requirement that wants everyone to buy into the dull American dream. Hurray for difference! It may be tough to be on the outside, but I can't help but be glad I am. The 'normal' just isn't my life, and I want to be myself, not a drone. It's OK to be different. It's OK to be yourself as you are.

Danny


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#277488 - 02/27/09 06:53 PM Re: Pretending to hate it. *triggers* sensitive topic [Re: DannyT]
behindthewall Offline


Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 126
Loc: US
Doug..in my opinion, you have done an excellent job in getting your point across. I've tried for a while now to explain to my siblings my interest in bdsm and why the pain aspect appeals to me. No matter what I say, they just dont get it.

After reflecting on your posts, it made me realize thats one of the reasons I only bottom. Most of the tops I know don't want to hear anything out of me and if they want the dialogue I tend to avoid them. If they're talking I can generally get into the pain and block the words. I realize this is not the same as your situation but thanks for giving me a fresh perspective to my own. I can relate in a sense.

J


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#277517 - 02/27/09 09:37 PM Re: Pretending to hate it. *triggers* sensitive topic [Re: behindthewall]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Thanks guys, your understanding, (and willingness to read that long ass rant!) is very comforting. I think it was good for me in one sense; I realized something that not only helped me understand myself but also might help me in the future should I find it in my heart to try to explain to "normal people" about "enjoying" pain.

I always feel triggered and shamed when someone says to me like a friend did a while back "How can you enjoy pain?"

At the time, I just retorted with "How can you lick out people's toe jam?" (he has a foot fetish.)

But next time I will explain that I DON'T "enjoy" pain because enjoy is not the right word...we just use it because our language suffers a word shortage with regard to subjective human experiences and so we have just one word to describe various distinct kinds of enjoyment.


But it's just simpler to understand the confusion as a lack of adequate words. We need a word to describe the distinct kind of enjoyment that accompanies pain for a masochist cuz it isn't an enjoyment that makes you smile and giggle.

Eskimos have something like a hundred different words to describe snow--so snow is not just snow to them! If our language were not so one-size-fits-all I think things like masochism might be easier to explain as well as understand, but when what we have to work with is just "pleasure" and "pain", all we really have is a seeming contradiction of terms like "military intelligence".

If I was to make up a word to describe the pleasurable feelings of being f*cked or flogged it would have a much longer definition than what there is for the words "pleasure" or "enjoyment".

The experience of masochism for me involves a kind of integration of mind and body that boarders on spiritual, but this is not conveyed in the word "pleasure" or "enjoyment".

When people make me feel inferior for being a masochist, I should think to myself how they should be envious of someone who is able to enjoy more than just one kind of "enjoyment".



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