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#271217 - 01/13/09 09:20 PM Re: I'm almost an agnostic [Re: michael banks]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1938
Loc: durham, north england
Leaving aside the notion of sin or selfishness for a while (which would get into a much too theological debate for the time being), my problem with the prodigal son example is that where is God?

I did not choose to be here, I am here because i'm trying to fix my life and recover from my experiences.

While It probably is the case that it is me who has in some way moved away from God and not the other way around, the more I try searching for God and failing, the less able to believe that God can possibly be as accessible as everyone says. If it only takes looking for god in order to find God, ---- then why have I not found God?

I'm beginning to think that god mmust be a distant unconcerned being. If you are with him, that's good for you and fair enough, but if your not, your not.

It's like a river flowing through a desert. When your walking beside the river you can get water, but if you walk, ----- oor are dragged off into the desert you simply can't. You are lost, and that is that. The river, though a source of life and water when your beside it, is no use to you at all when your away from it, and if you are so far out into the desert that you no longer can see the river, and cannot find your way back, your just stuck, the river cannot come to you, and if you are unable to come to it, ---- well too bad.

It doesn't matter whether you chose to walk away from the river or were forceably dragged off by something else, either way it's just tough luck on you.


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#271223 - 01/13/09 10:22 PM Re: I'm almost an agnostic [Re: dark empathy]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Luke,

God gave all mankind the freedom to do as we please.
Some people use this freedom to fulfill the desires at the expense of others. Which is what happened to you and I.
So are we responsiable what someone chooses to do? Is God?

Even Jesus had his time in the desert. Maybe it is just part of what we all have to experience in life.
On the cross did not even Jesus cry out "Why have you forsaken me" and he knew from the beginning of time the fate that was instore for himself.
Pain is never something we want to feel. Even if you are god in the flesh. It is human nature not to want to feel pain.

Maybe the separatness you feel towards from God is just your pain. Or your unwillingness to accept it as part of your life.
In time you will understand why you had to undergo these horrible experiences.

My use of the prodigal son is only an example of his unconditional love for his children no matter what.

These are never easy questions or answers.

To choose to have faith is up up each person.
He gave us all that choice.

Hope you have peace in whatever you choose.

Take care for, God loves you. You are one of his children.

Mike



_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#271224 - 01/13/09 10:33 PM Re: I'm almost an agnostic [Re: nathan555]
nathan555 Offline


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 230
Loc: Australia
hey guys
I mentioned God once
and I mentioned that my hope is God's love
please if my faith offends you , look past it to see my despair
I want to hear of your strategies for survival

I might have this rope of hope

but really, right now I am in the darkness of exploring that I was abused

too numb to feel the pain

to use one posted analogy
yes - out in the hot, dry desert,
I know there is a stream

and I struggle with raging desire from within
and I hate it

it can take hours to bring it under control

my darkness hides my hope
I am embarrased that I have ssa desires from within
but I don't want to act out
but its there
fuck its there

and I am in torment

I spent all morning wanting a smoke when I don't want to be addicted to smoking

I don't deny my faith

but right now I am in darkness
like shit

Nathan

_________________________
5 depending on God's grace gives hope
6 my dark side , my hurt inner being my struggle
8 looking to the day of overcomming

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#271227 - 01/13/09 10:42 PM Re: I'm almost an agnostic [Re: nathan555]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Nathan,

You are not alone in your faith or recovery.
pm me anytime you need to talk.

Your Brother in Christ.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#271230 - 01/13/09 11:05 PM Re: I'm almost an agnostic [Re: michael banks]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1938
Loc: durham, north england
Hi Michael.

I am not offended by anyone's position here. It's all individualistic anyway. If other people can find something helpful, ---- that's fine, even if it is something I cannot myself understand.

an atheist once told me I believe in God because I had this magic thing called faith, which was the ability to believe something just for the sake of believing it.

I replied that was not true. I believed in God's existence through direct experience, remembering those experiences and recieving echoes of them throughout life.

I no longer have those echoes, so I no longer havae a belief.

This is not a choice. I have searched, asked, and if I had my choice I would want my relationship with God back.

I also cannot believe that God is in any way involved with what i am feeling now, --- ie, that there is something which I am "supposed" according to God to learn.

the God I used to know would not treat people in that way as a means, but i do not want to get onto the problem of evil, sinse while I do have a clear position on the subject, if I started outlining it i'd again be talking about a God which i no longer had any sense of, which is just the sort of thing I want to avoid.


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#271242 - 01/13/09 11:43 PM Re: I'm almost an agnostic [Re: dark empathy]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Luke,

Learning is what life is all about from the time we are born till the day we die.

As I believe God created us in his image. We are his children why would he not be involved in all aspects of our lives.

It is all about choice.
God will not force his will upon us.
You have made your choice.
You are no longer almost agnostic but a full fledged one.
So I see our discussion is over.
Glad I could have been of help.

As always nice talking to you.

Mike

ps; remember you are still one of his children.




_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#271264 - 01/14/09 03:43 AM Re: I'm almost an agnostic [Re: michael banks]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1938
Loc: durham, north england
I'm sorry Michael, as I said I have no antagonism towards your position at all, it's just that personally I do not find some of the specifically Christian answers here which you have given as helpful at this moment as I could do, for instance the idea that God is involved in all aspects of life, including my current situation and that this is something I can "choose" of myself to change due to all the associated freewill arguements.

As I said in the spirituality thread, I never made any claime to be a Christian at all.

I'm incredibly sorry if this answer causes you trouble, I'm just trying to be as honest as I can about the position I'm in at the moment.


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#271267 - 01/14/09 04:27 AM Re: I'm almost an agnostic [Re: dark empathy]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Luke,

Your beliefs are yours and mine are mine.
To each their own. As I have repeatly stated in my replies God give us all the freedom of choice. So who am I to disrespect your choice of belief.
It causes me no trouble what so ever whether you have faith in God or not.
I am not here to convert or even to try and convert anyone to my belief. That is not my responsability nor do I want it.
Like you I struggled with my belief in God for many years.I was just sharing with you my beliefs.
Honesty is what relationships are about. Even if we we don't agree on everything. no need to be sorry.

Mike

ps; in the prodgical son- the father is god.

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#271301 - 01/14/09 11:40 AM Re: I'm almost an agnostic [Re: michael banks]
Juni Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 12/10/08
Posts: 502
Loc: Florida, WPB
Nathan,

I know how your are feeling. Like you, I (and probably many of us) struggle with the dark side on a regular basis. I am new to SA recovery and I have not arrived in any sense of the word. I am a work in progress, with ups and downs, success and failures. I am still tormented and sometimes I have to fight one hour at a time and other times I am better. God gives me the strength to continue to fight so I can say that today I am better. This is where faith and growth come in. I need prayers from my brothers in Christ regularly. I really canít stand it when I feel weak and I feel worst when I fail. So, I ask for forgiveness and continue to build on my faith and strength.

Juni

_________________________
Today I'm O.K.
One day at a time I make the journey.

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#271311 - 01/14/09 01:39 PM Re: I'm almost an agnostic [Re: Juni]
petercorbett Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2433
Loc: TEXAS
Hi, all my friends/brothers, posted above. I take no offense to what anybody had to say. If I can't really understand or find ME, than how can I find God?
Heal well, my friends/brothers.
Pete (Irishmoose)

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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