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#273031 - 01/28/09 08:28 PM Re: He says he's not gay [Re: ttoon]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303
Hey Toon,

As always, you've said a lot in your post.

Why do I stay? That's, well, complicated smile

I think and feel infidelity sucks, it kicks us where it counts, and, in my opinion, where it ought to count. All those horrible feelings we have when finding out that our lovers have betrayed us in that way seem pretty important -- and pretty healthy -- life without those emotions seems pretty shallow to me. What else are we willing to suffer for but our hopes and dreams that we're lovable and lovably unique - and the Other is too?

So, why stay? Hmmm... first off because people deserve redemption, in a non-religious sort of way. I'm not religious. But still, there's something to the religious notion of redemption.

Secondly, even a cheater has redeeming qualities smile Rob sure does. He's a great guys in so many ways. It's interesting that sexual secrets often comes packaged in a person who has such a sterling public image all the while leading a double life. I think it's what the psychologists call splitting. The whole Dr. Jekyl, Mr. Hyde thing. And the thing is that both the good Dr. and the frightful Mr. are real. For instance, Rob seems really sweet. Not just nice, but sweet. Does the fact that he also has an aspect that sadistic rule out his sweet aspect? Don't know. Pretty confusing. So I go with the idea that there's not a false sweet Rob and a real sadistic Rob -- or a real sweet Rob and a false sadist Rob.... Rob's both, and they're both real. Rob of course would like to both minimize his sadistic aspect and simply deny that it exists at all. He identifies with the sweet, forgiving, caring, protective Rob. That other Rob is a "small" part of who he is.... it doesn't really "matter"....

And in some ways I get this: Rob's successful, a good father, a good ex-husband to his ex-wife (he sucked as a husband), etc... All of which is pretty amazing given his background. So, he grew up to be a "manizer" -- he could have grown up to be a rapist or worse. Lots of people with his background do.

Third, I look at my son and ask myself: "What if something like this happened to him? What if he were raped tomorrow, grew up to be fucked up enough to be a slut? Would he still deserve understanding, compassion, love?"

And of course my answer is "Yes". At least that's simple. And it is simple.

So.... there you have it. Or at least some of it.

Take care,
Katie


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#273037 - 01/28/09 09:07 PM Re: He says he's not gay [Re: Kathryn]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303
Hey Gabbahey,

I don't think it's so much a matter of "mixing up the mucous membranes". How so? It's like this: I"m 5 feet tall. Let's say I get involved with a man who, for whatever reason, felt he wanted to marry short women but had a powerful sex thing for tall women. Let's say for him that short women represent stability, companionship, family. Tall women represent escape from the mundane, represent indepedence, freedom, thrills. Short women are nice, and sex with them is sometimes even sort of pleasant. But sex with tall women -- wew, way better.... just something about rubbing up against a tall woman -- the sensations are just more powerful.... so powerful, in fact, that it feels like an "addiction".

You'd have the same problem even though there's no mixing up of the mucous membranes smile

So it's not so much about different body types: short vs. tall, male vs. female.... but the meanings a person attaches to them, and their relative inability to bring their fantasies to the body type they happen to want to build a life with rather than the body type they want to fuck for an hour. And the fantasies themselves don't matter, as long as we feel gratitude towards the person we're having sex with that they're the ones who has allowed us to fantasize about whatever it is we fantasize about....

There's guys on here that seem to make too much out of their fantasies despite the fact that they feel sure about what kind of life they would like to build and who know that it's only our obligations to others that gives life meaning.

And then there are those, like Rob, who would like to build a life in which he's under no obligation to anyone - neither man nor woman. Bisexuality can fit this bill to a T, and seems to be one of it's attractions for lots of people.

Take care,
Katie


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#273044 - 01/28/09 09:56 PM Re: He says he's not gay [Re: wifetryingtoheal]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6419
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
Bax,

Please tell me about the various end-game scenarios you envision.

Watch my two videos below with trigger warnings. They may give you a bit of perspective on things (IMO).

_________________________
This nation has lost its mind!

The Aftermath Video

The Water Buffalo Song

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#273219 - 01/30/09 01:02 AM Re: He says he's not gay [Re: Kathryn]
Gabbahey Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 43
Oh crikey, I posted a bunch of BS, and now I've got a debate on my hands. grin

The Joker responds:

I agree, the symbolic structure of attraction is complicated. In my case, the symbolic structure of becoming "unattracted" to women as significant others is complicated.

For other men, and unlike me, the main problem is the forced sexualization of their relationships with men. Forced or not, brutal or not, it often persists.

When I reduce it to membranes and organs, I guess what I'm thinking about is the difficulty of conveying personal complexity, the history of attraction and arousal, to anybody else.

You understand: nothing Rob says is a satisfactory explanation.

When you meet a stranger, the process of getting acquainted goes from categorical to individual.

Under stress, we don't allow other people to deploy biographies. Rather, we revert to categories: gay, straight, bi, Arab, Jew, etc.

At the same time, under stress, while denying the "other" complexity and history, we attempt to deploy our autobiographies as a way to deflect criticism. Nixon was "not a crook"; he always had a way to self-justify.

So that stuff about membranes: I suppose I'm imagining my story seen from the outside. First come categories; later---and rarely---the details.

Sad to say, there's not enough world and time to explain myself to everyone. To some extent, I have to live with whatever identity is given me.

I can refuse to internalize it, but at the same time I recognize that an "identity" is a pact between the individual and society.

In fact, I sometimes feel a great desire to adopt an identity from the pallet that society offers: gay, straight, bi. This is a desire born of early neglect: I want to be loved, not hated. I want into society, by any means allowed.

Society has a difficult time with male victims, and we shun that identity ourselves. We can be abused easily, men are violent in many ways (a joke is violent), but it's much harder to be "helped," whatever that means.

It's easier for me to see and present myself as a joke of psychological mal-adaptation. I attract the necessary attention to my pain, and yet deny that my suffering is consequential.

This denial of personal importance is a big part of male group solidarity. Everyone or no one a peacock. If you stand out, it better be because you're the alpha dog. Otherwise, you're a contemptible impostor or a dangerous rouge male.

I am, in fact, a comedian, jester, a fool, the Joker----humor from personal pain. It's a very male thing. And finally the pain fades and you're just left with humor---not a bad way to live life. And humor---sans pain and neediness---gets you laid!

To generalize horribly and throw out silly thoughts in general:

A lot of men are comedians (or anarchists) of some stripe. I think it is often our way, whereas women take the travails of their interior life and their various relationships very seriously.

Just when women think their men are getting serious about relationships, the men go on a bender. They clam up, disappear, break up the china shop, do other crazy shit, etc.

Just when men think that women have accepted them and trust them and will stop asking questions----the interrogation about their feelings continues!

On the Psychology Today website, look up a blog called The Scientific Fundamentalist:

<<http://blogs.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist>>

The blogger asserts things like "everything men do, they do to get laid." It's a very irritating blog, but like this post I'm writing, might have some things of interest.




Edited by Gabbahey (01/30/09 01:04 AM)

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#273220 - 01/30/09 02:11 AM Re: He says he's not gay [Re: Gabbahey]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
In the end is it not our choices and actions that really define who we are. Not who we claim or pretend to be so that others will choose to love us.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#273223 - 01/30/09 06:48 AM Re: He says he's not gay [Re: michael banks]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303
Hey Gabbehey,

Of course you were playing with words, yet, as you know, there's a bunch of truth in what your wrote re: mucous membranes. As I know you know.

As far as men.... I used to think that the differences between men and women were far exagerrated. Then I went through a period of thinking that the guy who wrote Women are from Venus, Men from Mars had a lot to say in his pop-psych sort of way. Now I'm back to thinking that sexual dimorphism between the human female and male is at least not as significant as say, in Gorillas smile

Anyway, what I wrote in response was sort of driven by the assumption that it doesn't matter which sex your spouse has an affair with. It does. It's a complicating factor, not because it's with the other sex, but because of the reasons it's with the other sex: cuz there has to be a body that's defined as being very different from the body to whom you're married, the psychodynamics of the individual demands it -- wether it be a female body vs. a male body or a petite body vs. an Amazon body.... There has to be a distinction/demarcation between the bodies concerned so that they can carry their distinct definitions -- and you can't mix them up.

There's more to say. And when I have time I will.

And I'm so glad to see you here!

K.


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#274356 - 02/07/09 03:36 PM Re: He says he's not gay [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
Survivinguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 310
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Ken Singer, LCSW
If boy experiences powerful sexual feelings while stimulating the abuser&#146;s penis, or from having his own penis stimulated, he may make a similar connection. In addition, as teenagers discovering masturbation, we reinforce the pleasurable feelings with the sight and feel of our own penises. So, with a &#147;normal&#148; (that is, non-abusive) sexual history, we will have a neutral to good association with penises. Our penis can make us feel good, give us a sense of power, and can alleviate boredom.

For the gay survivor, the association of the abuser with the arousal and attraction of the male body, a source of otherwise healthy homosexual pleasure may be tainted. The gay survivor may have ambivalent feelings towards penises as a result.

When the sexual feelings are forced, unwanted, confusing and even painful, the association with the penis can be contaminated. You may hate your penis because it &#147;betrayed&#148; you by becoming erect in an abusive situation. Because the male abuser, particularly when there are negative feelings towards him, involves his penis in the acts, the result can be that some survivors may associate the penis with the hurt, betrayal, pain, humiliation, shame and guilt from the abuse. Think of the confusion you might feel from having these negative emotions about the abuse or abuser, and at the same time trying to feel good about your sexuality, and about a part of your body that is so central to your sexuality as your penis.

Many survivors report a desire or temptation to look at the groins of other men, or at their exposed penises in situations like a changing room in school, gym, or at a swimming pool. It is natural for boys and men to be curious about the penises of other guys, and no amount of reassurance that size doesn&#146;t matter seems to lessen this curiosity. Though some heterosexual men may find it difficult to admit, there is probably not a man around who has never sneaked a peek at another man&#146;s penis at a line of urinals or in a locker room.

For survivors, however, the penis may also be a symbol of the harm they have suffered. You may think, for example, that your penis is what &#147;attracted&#148; the abuser; this is often why some survivors, both teens and adults, report feelings of wishing they were not boys, or of wishing they didn&#146;t have a penis.

The sexual parts of other males can also arouse feelings of discomfort and threat in you: that is, you are looking at other men not because you desire them, but because you are on alert for signs of possible arousal, which for you would be a danger signal. But notice once again how, when you experience these feelings, you are in fact also re-experiencing the control that the abuser had over you. The abuser&#146;s penis was a powerful source and symbol of so much of what was happening to you as a boy. Now, even though the abuse has ended and you no longer need fear harm from the abuser, these old defense mechanisms are still active. What the abuser did years ago still has the power to influence how you think and behave.

One important consideration if you are sexual with other men when you identify as heterosexual is to look at why you desire to act sexually with them. If the acts are reenactments of your abuse, it may be because the trauma is still unresolved and the sex is a way of returning to the trauma, perhaps hoping &#150; on an unconscious level &#150; that this time you will not be the helpless victim.

One example of this is familiar with those who know or work with abused women. How many women in abusive relationships end their relationship, but then go back to the abusing partner or wind up with another man who turns out to be abusive as well? On some unconscious level these women may be hoping that &#147;this time it will be different&#148;. This way of thinking leaves them in a situation where they find themselves in a repeating cycle of bad or abusive relationships.

It may also be that you have been taught or conditioned that behaving in this way would bring closeness, acceptance or some other emotional need that you may not have had in your life at that time. Or you may have learned that by giving in, you would not be beaten or hurt more.

Again, look at all these situations and you can see the continuing control of the abuser. The abuse is over, and perhaps the abuser is gone as well, but the emotional responses you learned as an abused boy are likely still with you.


Wow - powerful stuff here. I am quoting this post just so it's easier for me to find this - thanks Ken. I'm going to be re-reading your post. I know I still have unresolved issues, I don't know if now is the time for this part but I want to be able to find this post without scrolling through 1000s of pages when I want to read this again.

_________________________
Survivinguy

============================================
I have to survive and I hope to thrive.

Alumni Dahlonega WoR May 2010
Alumni Sequoia WoR March 2012

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#274438 - 02/08/09 12:26 PM Re: He says he's not gay [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
riveerboy Offline


Registered: 02/04/09
Posts: 84
Loc: Indiana
as a child I was emotionally needy and about 9 years old had my brothers friend talk me into something. It was a good experience for me. I am 55 now, have been gay for 30 years(openly), and am just beginning to go through some bi-sexual leanings/urges. A part of it is my healing of things. A part is also repressing sexual feelings because bisexuality is not necessarily cool in the gay community. Or at least me saying it. Others have somehow voiced their opinions.

The feeling I got from your posting is that he has a lot of sorting out to do. The biggest part is being responsible within your relationship. That is the big thing. to me. I have struggled with the thought of meeting a woman and pursuing something. It all came down to going through this process without having to get into bed with anyone. I have not had sexual relations with my partner(of 18 years) for two years. There has been inuendoes, just no discussion. I feel that the discussion is the biggest part. That and trust. Trust that you have with him, but probably moreso that he have with you and with himself.

The sense that he may be going thru an honesty thing with himself. and not knowing how to approach it with you. I have a great sense that I still need to mature in an emotional sense way back to 9 years old. To go back and heal.....this is a difficult time for me and I am used to working at a deep level.

I wish you the best. Both of you. No words of comfort here. Maybe you reading this helps. The question that just popped in my head is does he read these? At some point I hope he gets here. There is also After Silence, another place to go.

Good Luck....riverboy.


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#282185 - 04/04/09 02:58 AM Re: He says he's not gay [Re: wifetryingtoheal]
coaster Offline


Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 18
When I was a boy, I often escaped into books. One of my favorites was My Friend Flicker and its sequel Thunderhead. In the second book, the boy carries the newborn foal for the first few days of its life after his dad explains the foal will always remember this and see the boy as the most powerful being in the world. His protector. The foal became Thunderhead--a powerful stallion, who nevertheless always acquiesced to the boy because of that early experience.

For years, I had no idea why the image of the boy holding the foal was so important to me. It was because I wanted my dad to be that way with me. I was the foal that needed comforting.

But the people who hurt us are the same people that unmercifully whip foals and kick puppies. Part of the secret shame comes from the "shaming" language that perpetrators used on us. And the sense that because they hurt us (even boys want to be seen as Men), they must be more powerful than us.

We heard: You're not a man. We say to ourselves: I must be a man.
We heard: Boy's don't cry. We say to ourselves: I won't cry.
When we naturally got a hard-on, we heard: You know you like it. We say to ourselves: I must have liked it.
We heard: If you tell anybody, I'll kill you. We say to ourselves: If I tell anybody, he'll kill me.
We heard: You should kill yourself. We say to ourselves: I should kill myself.
We heard: You homo. We say to ourselves: I must be a homo.
(and if you ARE gay/bi/trans, this becomes an additional burden).

What am I trying to say? Whatever we heard in the act of the abuse becomes a part of our psyche, a part of who we indoctrinate ourselves to believe we are, just so we can try to make sense of a completely unfathomable act. When your husband says he is confused, likely he is. Sometimes the memories are like an endlessly repeating recording that replays until it has been sorted out. That's all I can say.

I do wish both of you the very very best. Whatever you do, please make sure he wears a condom if you are going to be intimate.



Edited by coaster (04/06/09 10:33 PM)

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#282213 - 04/04/09 11:00 AM Re: He says he's not gay [Re: wifetryingtoheal]
An Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 151
Loc: usa

Originally Posted By: wifetryingtoheal
bax05,

. I don't agree with anyone telling you to continue sex with him so he doesn't seek it elsewhere. That is your personal choice and you need to do what feels right and safe for you.


Amen to that! His behavior is his responsibility, not the wife's.

Think if the inverse had been posted- that while the survivor needs time away from sexual activity with you, you should seek it elsewhere?

Wife Succeeding at Healing (MHO)-your whole post was precious as this entire strand has been, but I thought that particular part needed to be Repeated & highlighted! Peace to All......


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