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#268208 - 12/21/08 02:06 PM Juvenile Offenders
Still Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6601
Loc: FEMA Region 1
The quality is weak, but listen to this report!!!!
Its particularly disturbing to me given that my perps were all 12 years old when it began.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDfcuw67V78&feature=related



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#268209 - 12/21/08 02:34 PM Re: Juvenile Offenders [Re: Still]
jacobtk Offline
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Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
I understand where you're coming from, but at the same time I think it's important to understand that a lot of people who offend, particularly child offenders, aren't necessarily going to re-offend, that they're treatable and most importantly that they're likely victims themselves. Prison really doesn't fix anybody and it's far less likely that a 12-year-old in prison for years will come out well-adjusted. In all likelihood a child that age will be preyed on by older inmates and the cycle will simply repeat itself.

The younger the offender, the less reasonable it seems to lock them up unless the act was particularly violent or the kid is uncontrollable. With older offenders like the boys mentioned in the report, chances are the reason they got such light sentences has more to do with those being their first offenses than attempts to let them walk.

I know it seems like they're getting away with it, but the greater importance is that they don't re-offend. If treatment will work, then that's really the best option.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again Iím reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you canít defeat/Neither down nor out/Thereís nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#268236 - 12/21/08 06:16 PM Re: Juvenile Offenders [Re: jacobtk]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
And here in Boulder, CO last week several college-age streaker's got lucky that they were offered a plea-bargain which avoided them having to register as sex-offenders. I guess pissing behind a dumpster in the dark is now a sex-offense too, along with revealing a little too much skin at the beach or having a wardrobe malfunction too.

I too do not see what good that it does to classify teenage juvenile offenders as adult sexual offenders despite what the effect is on their victims. I really think that treatment and some kind of restitution for juvenile offenders would go a long way toward reducing the problem and lowering our incarceration and readjustment costs too.

I still think that all younger offenders and most first-time offenders should be segregated from the general prison population and treated for their transgressions. Otherwise our prison population will continue to grow to an unmanageable and unaffordable level. Right now we have 2 million people in prison in this country times a yearly cost of $30K or more each. $60 Billion yearly could be much better spent considering the lost productivity and lost consumer spending costs are in addition to that.

I know that it is tough being a victim too.

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#268244 - 12/21/08 07:45 PM Re: Juvenile Offenders [Re: jacobtk]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6601
Loc: FEMA Region 1
Originally Posted By: jacobtk
I understand where you're coming from, but at the same time I think it's important to understand that a lot of people who offend, particularly child offenders, aren't necessarily going to re-offend, that they're treatable and most importantly that they're likely victims themselves. Prison really doesn't fix anybody and it's far less likely that a 12-year-old in prison for years will come out well-adjusted. In all likelihood a child that age will be preyed on by older inmates and the cycle will simply repeat itself.

The younger the offender, the less reasonable it seems to lock them up unless the act was particularly violent or the kid is uncontrollable. With older offenders like the boys mentioned in the report, chances are the reason they got such light sentences has more to do with those being their first offenses than attempts to let them walk.

I know it seems like they're getting away with it, but the greater importance is that they don't re-offend. If treatment will work, then that's really the best option.


Oh....I'm not claiming they cant be fixed. However, so few of them are ever caught. I know 4 who never were caught.

I honestly don't think they ought to do normal time either, but they ought not go unpunished and they ought not go without mandatory T, and they (and their parents) ought not go without dramatic (DRAMATIC and DEVASTATING) financial restitution to their victims and the victims families.

I fully believe that the civil renumeration ought to be SO fkg dramatic, the judge himself will faint from what he orders.

If you dont know why I demand such dramatic civil penalty, just ask. I'll tell.

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I'm "that guy."

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#268245 - 12/21/08 07:54 PM Re: Juvenile Offenders [Re: Still]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Rob,

OK why.

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#268250 - 12/21/08 09:13 PM Re: Juvenile Offenders [Re: Still]
jacobtk Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
I fully believe that the civil renumeration ought to be SO fkg dramatic, the judge himself will faint from what he orders.

If you dont know why I demand such dramatic civil penalty, just ask. I'll tell.


I really would like to know why, however, I can already say I don't think that's a good idea.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again Iím reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you canít defeat/Neither down nor out/Thereís nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#268330 - 12/22/08 07:45 PM Re: Juvenile Offenders [Re: jacobtk]
Still Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6601
Loc: FEMA Region 1
How many guys here have had their lives ruined to the point that they cannot earn a decent living? There are guys here who are extremely bright and qualified for higher-level jobs and income but have to deal with all the debilitating barriers installed by the perps.

Everything about my life's development was pushed back a full decade. By the time I finally brushed myself off and sought a new life I was 26 years old, had drug and alcohol issues and no education.

Now, in any civil jurisdiction, the parents, guardians or determinable other supervisory adults are responsible for the actions of the minors in their control.

Given that the victim's life is likely ruined beyond quantification, heavy (FKG HEAVY) civil penalty ought to be full enough to support the victim for the rest of his natural life.

Look at some recent civil SETTLEMENTS for hard and soft-tissue injuries:

Brain Damage: $12M of an ADULT (42 yrs old)
Shattered Knee: $5M for a 30 yo male
Inhalation of toxic fumes: $22M for an adult male with resperatory damage.

The exemplary settlements and judicial or jury awards are quite clear. Intentional (or negligent) injury of another will cost you dearly.

If the parents of the little devils dont have enough insurance, they should be forced to liquidate any and all assets and have their wages and future gains captured for the benefit of the Sexual Assault victim.

If I were the judge, I'd make the award so painful that their ancestors will writhe in agony.

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I'm "that guy."

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#268392 - 12/23/08 02:51 AM Re: Juvenile Offenders [Re: Still]
jacobtk Offline
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Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
As I said before, I really don't think that's a good idea.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again Iím reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you canít defeat/Neither down nor out/Thereís nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#268463 - 12/23/08 04:30 PM Re: Juvenile Offenders [Re: Still]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
The quality is weak, but listen to this report!!!!
Its particularly disturbing to me given that my perps were all 12 years old when it began.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDfcuw67V78&feature=related



I too was abused by 12-year-old boys. I was 6. My story is found in: (triggering)

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...6048#Post216048

They were not instigated at all by adults. Their fathers were most likely away as part of the military effort, as was my father. I have no idea where they are today. The abuse took place in Fort Lupton CO. I had been abused previously and it probably made me an easier target. We were all lonely and had a "father hunger". The boys called us their "girls" which was quite upsetting to me. Even if they were possibly not pathologically oriented, they were being habituated by their behavior.

The legal system at that time would have been totally abashed in any attempt to deal with it. The legal system would still be unable to deal with it.

After my family moved to Denver, there were predator boys in my parent's social circle. One boy in particular, DS, was active in abusing me. He abused me 1 - 2 times a year for several years. For him it was a power trip, I believe. He was developing a predatory personality. He would have had to be dealt with more sternly by the legal system, assuming that was a possibility.

When I was 10, a 17-year-old across the street abused me. To me he seemed ancient. We now would say that he was an older teen. He groomed me and my friend briefly. He had probably been taught this behavior by his older brothers. I believe went on to be a perp and may have spent some time in the pen. My little friend learned how to do it and spent time in the pen. It was learned behavior.

triggering:

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...8205#Post218205


Allen

pufferfish whistle


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#268471 - 12/23/08 05:23 PM Re: Juvenile Offenders [Re: jacobtk]
Still Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6601
Loc: FEMA Region 1
Originally Posted By: jacobtk
As I said before, I really don't think that's a good idea.


Care you elaborate at all as to why?

[added evidence from MY situation]

21 years of substance abuse
11 jobs in 16 years
Thousands spent for Doctors
Getting divorced
Now out of my six-figure-income job
Paying $1100/month for health insurance
I will forever be fkd in the head from it all
Been hospitalized twice for suicidal behavior
Cant function in societal modes
Had several failed attempts at higher education

Please do elaborate why one ought not sue the juvenile offender and his family till their grand-children's teeth bleed?


BTW: In my town, a 12 yo boy was masturbating on the school bus and was cheered-on by others. He flung the output at the girl sitting in front of him. His parents are being sued into the next century for the trauma inflicted on her.

SHe cant go to the school again. She's afraid of going out and seeing anyone...sound familiar? She needs therapy and a private school.

Why should her parents pay that bill?

Fortunately, the courts in this country will suck the blood out of these parents till they dry-up and blow-away like dust. LOL..cool!

Fortunately, the courts don't give a flying fk what anyone other than a jury thinks! YAY!!!!

_________________________
I'm "that guy."

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#268516 - 12/23/08 11:41 PM Re: Juvenile Offenders [Re: Still]
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
For one, it's impractical. The girl you mentioned probably won't receive much money if she wins because most people don't have stores of cash. Two, what will happen to the family? Presumably the child won't be in prison, so if the parents must hand over all their money, how will they care for the child? What if they have other children? If the parents have no money, how will they put their children through school, high school and college? If any medical problems happen to them or the children, how would they pay for it?

However, the basic reason it's not a good idea is because it's ill intentioned. What you describe is the deliberate intent ruin an entire family's lives just because you were harmed and the intent to take pleasure from knowing that even the person's grandchildren could suffer as a result.

That's a very huge, very serious line to cross.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again Iím reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you canít defeat/Neither down nor out/Thereís nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#268583 - 12/24/08 01:39 PM Re: Juvenile Offenders [Re: jacobtk]
ricmar00 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 2
Loc: New Jersey
Robbie and other on this thread:

Your discussion has pulled me in. I do not know on which side, but I have certainly had a reaction I would like to share. I hope it does not offend or upset further, and I hope it is judged by its intent, which is to help healing.

I have worked with child and adult survivors for many years. I have also worked with children and juveniles who have sexually abused others, trying as hard as I can to prevent them from doing it again. I have come to realize that they offend for many different reasons (please read reasons/not excuses). To me it is still largely a mystery, what would make someone hurt someone as innocent and undeserving of hurt as a child is. Genetics, prior victimization of some sort, mental retardation, immaturity, mental illness, uncontrolled rage, impulsivity, and, on many occasion, just plain spiritual/moral rottenness are all contributors. Even as I write this, I know I fall miserably short of understanding, much less of answering WHY. I do know that for many of them it seemed to be more of a violent regurgitation of rage, hurt, confusion, and twisted sexuality, than it was sinister, evil, and perfectly planned malice. At least it seemed like this to me.

What is unquestionable is the effect they have on others.
Robbie, the rage you feel is incredibly warranted. As you and too many others can attest, at worst, the actions of these kids destroy the lives of their victims and at best taint just about every moment of a victimís lifetime. Iíll even push it further to point out that the effects ripple, and sometimes lash out onto the survivorís family, friends, children, ex and current partners, employees, and on a bad day even strangers with bad timing.

The rage you feel was unfairly given to you by your perpetrators. Like an infection, a bad one, it is toxic. You were not born with it. It was not born of you. But it is in your possession. If unleashed, it will affect/infect others, possibly taking with it innocent unborn toothless gum bleeding grandkids. Perhaps that would be justice.

I fear however, it would just pass it on without really undoing anything for its previous victim. No one could really blame you if you lost control and unleashed it. No one could blame you for seeking justice. At least not anyone who knows a gram of what youíve unjustly been thru.

I hope you heal from this infection.
I donít know what that will look like for you.
But you deserve to find it.

_________________________
Ricardo Martinez

Although the world is full of suffering, it is also full of the overcoming of it.
-- Helen Keller


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#268603 - 12/24/08 08:44 PM Re: Juvenile Offenders [Re: ricmar00]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6601
Loc: FEMA Region 1
So who is to pay the bills?

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#268650 - 12/25/08 10:36 AM Re: Juvenile Offenders [Re: Still]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Robbie:
Ricardo makes some excellent points. If you have a situation where others connected to the criminal (or bad guy or whatever you want to call the person) profited from his ill-gotten gain, it might make sense. So, if a scam artist got cars, fancy houses, jewelry, etc that went to family members, for example, it would make sense to round up all the loot to reimburse people who were scammed out of their money.

That might make a lot of sense in this kind of situation. However, what benefit did the spouse, parents, children, grandchildren, etc. of an abuser get by abusing you? What kind of price tag can you put on your life that was so affected by the abuse?

In medical malpractice, which was cited by someone earlier in the thread, there are formulas to estimate the lifetime earnings, for example, of a 22 yr old college graduate who was severely brain injured in a robbery and you can set a somewhat realistic price on his future economic worth. Maybe even factor in for pain and suffering. But how can you guestimate your losses in terms of financial earnings from the abuse and can you get money from your abuser?

In some cases you can. I posted a few months ago about a young man who sued his stepfather in NJ civil court for damages from the abuse long past the statute of limitations. He won and it went up the appellate court chain where he just won again. Now whether he can get actual damages from his stepfather remains to be seen but it is a legal and moral victory for those who were abused long ago and have little recourse in civil or criminal courts. At least in NJ.....


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#268665 - 12/25/08 12:35 PM Re: Juvenile Offenders [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6601
Loc: FEMA Region 1
But who ought to pay for the actual damages? Example, debilitation, medical bills, phych bills, special education?

I'm not even talking about punitive damages YET. Lets stick with the out of pocket stuff. Who ought to pay that?

In state district courts in NH and MA, the finding go for the plaintiff IF the facts and evidence support the claim. If there is jurisdictional diversity and the case ends up in Fed Dist Ct, the defendant (and their insurance company) nearly always settles out of court.

Emo and distress (as we all know are quite real and powerful) IMO ought to be fully devastating if it is evident that the juvenile perp was ill-raised and ill-supervised.

_________________________
I'm "that guy."

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#268677 - 12/25/08 02:00 PM Re: Juvenile Offenders [Re: Still]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
NJ and I believe many states have victims of violent crimes funds to pay for medical and psychological expenses. We have gotten paid by the fund for treatment of several victims/survivors over the years.

In NJ, such fines are imposed on violent offenders (including sexual abusers) that help fund the VCCB. At least that's a start.


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#268692 - 12/25/08 04:03 PM Re: Juvenile Offenders [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6601
Loc: FEMA Region 1
THAT'S a good state!!!

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I'm "that guy."

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