Newest Members
Lumpy, squeekinby, rhyoung, Jefferson22, OxfordArms
12369 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
aleja (40), bc22 (47), DavidMI (40), Forrest_Gump (39), Jay1946 (68), Malc4 (29), mpm01 (49), widpaulman (43)
Who's Online
4 registered (woodenshoes, Obi, 2 invisible), 16 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12369 Members
74 Forums
63575 Topics
444180 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4
Topic Options
#268921 - 12/27/08 11:08 AM Re: please, could use some coaching/opinions...guys? [Re: riz]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Originally Posted By: riz
Last night he called me and started to cry while we were talking and then went into that formal mode that I have previously reacted to with such sadness and resentment. This time I did not feel hurt, defensive, used, manipulated or anything else. See? It's not that I felt bad and stuffed it down, sacrificing my feelings for his. No. The bad feelings simply were not there.
Riz



Riz,


I have what I call my "Gracie dog rule." Gracie is our eleven year old chocolate Lab. She is a dog and does dog things. It would be hard to imagine that she does anything with malice and is manipulative (although, sometimes I wonder laugh ). So, on any given day I may notice that she is driving me crazy, just doing her dog things, being a dog. Every morning she goes out to do her "perimeter check." She runs the length of the property making sure everything is as it should be. Satisfied, she strolls back in, usually wanting a treat for her efforts. Some days it takes her longer than other days and some days she wants to go in and out more than I care to get up and or down. You know, let the dog in, let the dog out, let the dog in, let the dog out...

Everyday, she is the same, she does dog things. And, on those days, where I notice that the things that she does, really irritates me, I try to step back, tell myself, "She is a dog, she does dog things." And, I ask myself (on good days) what it is that is going on for me and, is it proportionate to what is right in front of me.

I have to tell ya...I think it is very cool that you are able to look at the situation with your husband calling, step back from it, separate it out so that both of your needs are being met. That, in a relationship with a survivor, is a huge hurdle.

I mentioned how recovery is a process and how it rarely is linear. Most often it spirals around and around as we revisit the new information coming in. So often, too, we need to say the same thing over and over and over, revisit it many times in the process in order to incorporate it into our belief system and, so often, to a partner that might seem or feel as though we are "dwelling" on something. But, personally, if we changed that to, "Well, it must be important then..." See how it changes it? It validates the "need" to be heard just as your need to be heard and what you are feeling needs to be heard and validated too. Because everything that you are feeling right now makes sense in the context of these experiences as you and your husband transition through this change in your relationship.

So...I am sitting at the kitchen table, mad at the dog. "In and out!" I say out loud, "that is all she does. In and out." My wife gets up, goes to the closet and pulls out a baseball bat, brings it over and stands directly next to me with it.

"What!?" I say.

"I know you are pissed off about something and it isn't the dog," she says, "and, I know it isn't me."

I looked up at her, thought about it for a moment and it came rushing in. It was my little sister's birthday. She had died two years earlier. I had forgotten. I was angry and the anger was valid...it was just misdirected.

"I am sorry," my wife said and held out her arms.


We both win as we are better able to separate what is ours and what is not. As we own only that which is ours. What our perpetrators did to us is not ours, not our fault or responsibilitty but, the emotions attached to it, are. Negotiating through them, is a huge challenge for any and every relationship.

As I said, I am glad you are a fighter. laugh


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

Top
#269036 - 12/28/08 07:20 AM Re: please, could use some coaching/opinions...guys? [Re: ttoon]
riz Offline


Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 123
Hiya Joel, So nice of you to say hello. I remember very well how you were the first one to pick me up and drag me in when I first collapsed in the virtual emergency room here. It was around 3am. I didn't know what this place was, but you told me nice people would soon be here with coffee and help. I felt such relief since I'd spent most of the night prowling hotlines and crisis centers online.

Funny how you say "your stuggle is akin to survivors". People talk about "my recovery" and I didn't know what they meant. But I think its starting to make a little sense. Actually I have been a little freaked out because, in addition to healing in regards to my husbands issues, predictably, a whole can of worms regarding my family of origin is now opening.

I didn't go to the family Christmas celebration (celebration? ha.) this year. It's like my eyes just opened and I finally can see the angry and depressed environment they provided me to grow up in. I married my husband because, on the surface, he seemed about as opposite from my male relatives as he could get. Underneath though, I am now horrified to see that the behviors of my father, uncle, grandfather, edgads! are exactly like that of my husband.

Holy shit. What could have happened to MY male relatives? My therapist told me not to start inventing. Ok. ok. But if nothing else, I see how emotionally abusive they were. Even if I don't know where it came from, I can see the effects it's had on me. I feel as if I have just woken from some deep trance and am trying to shrug off the paralysis of fear and unworthiness that I have been functioning (or malfunctioning) with for years.

Many people see me as a confident and intelligent woman when they meet me. Inside I am always quivering. My husband told me that my personality included some very big lies. That I was acting big, but really I was small and frightened. He said I was not revealing myself and living up to my potential because of my fear. I was furious and denied everything he said.

At this moment I see that he is right. And you, too. You said I'd been frightened when I came here. I was, but in a "controlled, in charge" sort of way, making the calls, asking the questions, fixing the problem, figuring it out, knowing the answers, being RIGHT. My husband said I always had to be right and I denied that, too.

I always like your posts, Joel, because they sometimes bring out a defensive reaction in me. They are a way for me to practice examining my reaction and see where it is coming from in ME.

Well, you just stopped by to say hi, but I've kept you a long time. Now that I've started talking, I can't seem to shut up :-)Thanks for listening.

Dave, I want to say sorry for your loss...for all your losses. It is absolutely elegant how you've transformed them into simple parables about Daisy dogs and fluffy cats so we can all benefit from your experience.

Riz


Top
#269037 - 12/28/08 08:26 AM Re: please, could use some coaching/opinions...guys? [Re: riz]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Riz,


Opression is a funny thing and, it seems like, as we awaken from the trance, shake off the weight of it, we find ourselves swinging like a pendulum trying to figure out just where we fit in. The more we are oppressed, it seems like, the wider the path of the pendulum. Back and forth, back and forth, until, eventually, we find some comfort in who we are now in relation to where we have come from.

Which, is why...everything that you are feeling right now, makes sense, in the context of what has happened and is happening in your life.

Eventually, if we are lucky (and some question that) we stop, take a breath long enough to see that things just aren't working for us. The old strategies become obsolete. As you challenge the old beliefs, I think, we go through the stages of loss. It is a loss and with every loss there comes confusion as we transition from who we were, to who we will become. Something has to fill the space.

Denial, bargaining, anger, sadness and acceptance are generally seen as the stages of loss. I have a lot of personal experience with bargaining with denial. Understanding it as a tool rather than a character flaw has really been helpful to me.

Fire is a tool, too. We can use it to temper steel to cut steel or, it can lay waste, everything in it's path as it rages out of control. A lot like anger. Anger is a tool as it helps us create and define our boundaries, but, distorted, it can be rage, hurtfull, harmfull.

All the emotions, I think, are tools to help us process the things that come up in our lives. When the expression is denied or oppressed...well, as you can see, we all lose.

I love your willingness to be open and honest, now that you've joined the ranks...as anyone that might come after reads your posts and watches how this experience has unfolded for you. For them, to be able to say, "I want what you have."


Thanks, Riz...


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

Top
#269045 - 12/28/08 11:24 AM Re: please, could use some coaching/opinions...guys? [Re: riz]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Hi Riz,

I just like you so much, girl, you are awesome!!! (please don't tell my boyfriend I said that, he might get the wrong idea. LOL) I don't know if you yourself can see yet the amazing progrtess that you have made in a few short months. I hope for you that you do because you've earned the right to celebrate Riz. Some us take years to get to where you are now - goes to show that you are stronger than you think.
Originally Posted By: riz
Holy shit. What could have happened to MY male relatives? My therapist told me not to start inventing. Ok. ok. But if nothing else, I see how emotionally abusive they were. Even if I don't know where it came from, I can see the effects it's had on me. I feel as if I have just woken from some deep trance and am trying to shrug off the paralysis of fear and unworthiness that I have been functioning (or malfunctioning) with for years.

Many people see me as a confident and intelligent woman when they meet me. Inside I am always quivering. My husband told me that my personality included some very big lies. That I was acting big, but really I was small and frightened. He said I was not revealing myself and living up to my potential because of my fear. I was furious and denied everything he said.

Take your T advice on this one and don't even go to the place of what may have happened to your male relatives! Ya don' wanna know, baby! Nor do you need to - trying to piece that mess together would only be a distraction for you and would lead you away from your own journey.

The waking up from a trance feeling? All too many survivors know the feeling and how disorienting it can be. As the adage goes, this too shall pass.

So, your personnailty includes some big lies, huh? You act big but really are just frightend, huh? You don't reveal yourself or live up to your potential. huh? Hearing stuff like that this makes you furious and you deny it, huh? Well, welcome to my world - welcome to land of survivors, my sweet, please know that you are in very good company!!! smile

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

Top
#269071 - 12/28/08 05:14 PM Re: please, could use some coaching/opinions...guys? [Re: riz]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
riz,

This whole thread and particularly your last post is one of the most honest and powerful threads I've read in my nearly 3.5 years here on the site.

You said:

Quote:
I always like your posts, Joel, because they sometimes bring out a defensive reaction in me. They are a way for me to practice examining my reaction and see where it is coming from in ME.

That, my dear lady, is what this site is all about, and I don't mean just you, but everyone who walks through these doors and takes that first sip of coffee offered in compassion by a total stranger.

It's about facing with courage the things that we don't want to face, the things that we're afraid will reveal more than we want to know or think we can handle.

It's about staring down our old ways of coping; of lashing out in anger; of taking our toys and going home; of cowering in the corner afraid do heal; and replacing those old and no longer functional coping mechanisms with honest searching for answers even if it means hearing things we don't want to hear or seeing things we don't want to see.

It's about staying engaged when everything within us wants to cut and run.

A friend of mine who is a facilitator for a recovery weekend program (not MS sponsored) said to me one time:

Quote:
We were wounded in relationship. It takes relationship to help heal the wound.

Someone else here, I've long since forgotten who but believe it may have been Ken Singer, once said:

Quote:
We need to talk it our or we'll end up acting it out.

So it boils down to having the honesty and courage to stay engaged when we want to cut and run. It boils down to having the honesty and courage to discuss the things we feel are unspeakable and doing it in a safe environment where we have a chance to look into the mirror being held up to us by our counterparts in healing and being able to see ourselves the way they see us. That means not only being able to gracefully see the negative things about us that we may need to work on, but also being able to gracefully see the beautiful and positive things about us that we may never have realized we possess.

Jon Bon Jovi did a song a while back called "Ugly". To me that song is anything but. One of the lines in it has stood out like a shining beacon for me for quite some time. It says, "If you could see yourself like others do, you'd wish you were as beautiful as you."

All of us have beauty. Thanks for this thread. It's been cathartic.

Lots of love,

John




_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

Top
#269088 - 12/28/08 07:26 PM Re: please, could use some coaching/opinions...guys? [Re: WalkingSouth]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
John,

The authenticity of your words has made me cry, man. Thanks, I too needed to hear what you said to Riz. Really hit home and I feel blessed.

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

Top
#269098 - 12/28/08 08:25 PM Re: please, could use some coaching/opinions...guys? [Re: joelRT]
riz Offline


Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 123
((( Dave, Joel, John )))

head pounding...must sleep...moon in window...happily drowned...God bless

Riz


Subtle degrees
of domination and servitude
are what you know as love

but love is different.
It arrives complete
just there
like the moon in the window

like the sun
of neither east nor west
nor of anyplace.

When that sun arrives
east and west arrive.

Desire only that
of which you have no hope
seek only that
of which you have no clue.

Love is the sea of not-being
and there intellect drowns.

This is not the Oxus River or some little creek.
This is the shoreless sea;
here swimming ends always in drowning.

A journey to the sea
is horses and fodder
and contrivance
but at land’s end
the footsteps vanish.

You lift up your robe
so as not to wet the hem;
come! drown in this sea
a thousand times.

-Rumi


Top
#269110 - 12/28/08 09:39 PM Re: please, could use some coaching/opinions...guys? [Re: riz]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977

Thank you, Riz,


...what we call the beginning is often the end
And to make and end is to make a beginning.
The end is where we start from. And every phrase
And sentence that is right (where every word is at home,
Taking its place to support the others,
The word neither diffident nor ostentatious,
An easy commerce of the old and the new,
The common word exact without vulgarity,
The formal word precise but not pedantic,
The complete consort dancing together)
Every phrase and every sentence is an end and a beginning,
Every poem an epitaph. And any action
Is a step to the block, to the fire, down the sea's throat
Or to an illegible stone: and that is where we start.
We die with the dying:
See, they depart, and we go with them.
We are born with the dead:
See, they return, and bring us with them.
The moment of the rose and the moment of the yew-tree
Are of equal duration. A people without history
Is not redeemed from time, for history is a pattern
Of timeless moments....

With the drawing of this Love and the voice of this
Calling

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
Through the unknown, unremembered gate
When the last of earth left to discover
Is that which was the beginning;
At the source of the longest river
The voice of the hidden waterfall
And the children in the apple-tree
Not known, because not looked for
But heard, half-heard, in the stillness
Between two waves of the sea.
Quick now, here, now, always—
A condition of complete simplicity
(Costing not less than everything)
And all shall be well and
All manner of thing shall be well
When the tongues of flame are in-folded
Into the crowned knot of fire
And the fire and the rose are one.

From, 'Little Gidding'

T.S. Eliot


laugh



Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

Top
#269167 - 12/29/08 08:37 AM Re: please, could use some coaching/opinions...guys? [Re: riz]
fromtoday Offline


Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 74
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: riz
Many people see me as a confident and intelligent woman when they meet me. Inside I am always quivering. My husband told me that my personality included some very big lies. That I was acting big, but really I was small and frightened.
Riz

Hi Riz,
this could be me you are talking about, tough isn't it, being the "strong" one, the wise friend, I often wonder if my friends ever consider why I might be "wise", why I might be able to offer advice in such a variety of situations, why I may seem to have experience in circles which I don't walk.
They laugh when anger leaks out of me, they laugh that I would make a good activist, I wonder if they consider where that anger comes from.
They are amazed when I can handle things, drunks, aggression, nothing rattles me, or does it.
I laugh sometimes when friends compliment my strength, I call myself "master of the masks", and they laugh, afterall I couldn't be speaking the truth could I.
Good Post,
love S

_________________________
Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide,
No escape from reality
Open your eyes, Look up to the skies and see.....
_________________________________________________
Queen, Bohemian Rhapsody

Top
Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4


Moderator:  ModTeam, peroperic2009 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.