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#266113 - 12/09/08 07:58 AM Thank God We Have Government
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States

I just don't know WHAT we would do without busy-bureaucrats!!

"State Silences Young Guitarist"



Local Story Posted Here:

If I could bitch-slap any government official, this one is at the top of my list.


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#266270 - 12/10/08 12:05 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: Hauser]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Alan,

Come on, they are not trying to force him not to play.
There are some places children do not belong.
Alot of bars and taverns are not a good place for adults to be in much less a child. Sometimes the child's safety is the most important thing.
There are plenty of other places for him to play. How about a music school?
Who knows this state law may give his dream alot of exposure that he would not have received otherwise.
He sure has the talent and I am sure we will hear alot more from him as he grows up.
Let him be a child for now. He will have chance to play in bars and clubs when he is of age if that is his dream.
Some laws are enacted to protect the child from being taken advantage of. This maybe one of them.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#266312 - 12/10/08 08:07 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: michael banks]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
Sure Mike, the parent is not fit to make that decision. Just remember, the State knows best!

I'm in no way trying to simply be argumentative, but, your reasoning seems extremely shallow to me. I mean, COME ON.

What about those parents who go rock climbing with their kids? What about parents that go white-water-rafting with their kids? What about the parent that let's their kids surf the internet without supervision? What about the parent that lets their child ride their bike without a helmet? (GASP!!!!!!) There is inherent risk with all sorts activities that children may legally do (with or without a parent present). This smacks with nanny-statism and I don't like it. I thought I might give this story some exposure for those who are inclined to agree.

Let me get this right, in a "free society", we're supposed to let the STATE decided such an issue? Knowing how many bad parents there are out there, I would still much rather leave such a decision to them, not the omniscient state, or some bureaucrat that is beholden to those with political influence.

And btw, what is so bad about bars? Because people drink? (GASP!!!!! The HORROR!!!) Oh, wait, I know, because there is second-hand smoke in such places, duhhhh. Well, we'll just make it illegal to allow privately owned bars to allow their patrons to smoke inside. (wait, didn't they already protect us from that?) Oh, I KNOW NOW, people might swear and provide bad moral examples for the child in such an environment. Well, THAT CERTIANLY justifies intervention by government busy-bodies THEN, doesn't it?

Mike, thank you for clarifying the issue for me, I have changed my mind and see it your way now. smile

Ok, I'll shut up now..............


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#266316 - 12/10/08 08:59 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: Hauser]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
.


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#266474 - 12/11/08 01:09 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: MarkK]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Alan and Mark,

To me the wellbeing and safety of my children is of the most important consideration that I have.
Thier welbeing and safety comes before their right to freedom which they are not entiled to until they are 18.
Until then I will make those decisions.
It is my duty as a parent to protect them.
Some parents choose to put their own needs ahead of their childrens.
(And I am not saying that is the case here).
I still say that there are places children do not belong.
Bars and traverns are one of them to 'me'.
In my view we need to be careful to what we expose our children too.

Mark, I have no problem with people drinking if they so choose.
But having a glass of wine during dinner or a beer at a ball game is an entirely different thing.Then allowing your children into a bar or tarvern.
What next,how about letting your underage son to go to the strip club with you the next time you go. Nothing wrong with nudity is there.
If we follow your guys' path of reasoning. Is not his rights being tramped on by the 'state' in this reguard.

I had relatives back in the early part of the last century who as children were required to work 12 to 16 hour a day six days a week for only a few dollars a week in mills around Burlington,N.C..
Should we repeal the child labor laws because it was decided by "state" that it was better for young children not to be forced to work.
Or that all children should have the right to an education not just the rich or whites.

Alan, sorry I am not one of those who are inclined to agree with you on this post or share the same political views that you do. Hope it is ok to disagree and not get sarcrastic just because we see things in a different light.

But that is just my opinion whether it be shallow or not.

ps- is not the state, you and I.(We the people...)

pss-Mark, good to see you out and about.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#266511 - 12/11/08 09:02 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: michael banks]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States

Don't obfuscate the issue. Don't muddle outright abuse (bringing kids to nudy-bars) with the right of a parent to decide if an environment is safe for their child or not.

And PLEASE quit recycling the oft-repeated mantras of government schools, that only the passage of child-labor laws stopped child labor. If you research the history of child labor (promise me you won't use a government school text book), you will note that child labor began dying out around 1900 as expanding technology made workers more productive and enabled families to survive without their children having to work. But the first big child-labor law wasn't passed until 1938. What's that all about? It's another example of the government taking credit for a positive natural development in the economy, just as it refuses to take responsibility for all the bad things it creates.

And as for your child ancestors that were forced to work back then, it was better than stealing, robbing, prostitution, or panhandling wasn't it? But I digress...........

I can handle the fact that you think it's fine for the state to act on the behalf of parents. I can deal with that. I would only ask of you to consider something that is very important in terms of giving power to government, and that is this:

"When you give power to government to accomplish something that you consider good, you ALSO give it the power to do something bad".

For example, these child-labor laws that you bring up. I worked in a restaurant for much of my young adult life. I worked along side many kids that were 15 or 16 years old. State law required that any kids 15 years old could not work past 7pm on a school night. It didn't matter if the kid was bored and simply wanted something to do. It didn't matter if the kid was already getting good grades in school. It didn't matter if the parents didn't care if the kid wanted to put in that time for himself. None of that matters. All that mattered was that politicians passed a law and it was enforced. And how did they enforce this law? A WELL-paid OSHA employee rifled through the time-card records of my employer, and found out that one of the 15 year-old employees punched out at 7:23pm one night. GASP!!!!! SAY IT ISN'T SO!!!!! The result? A FIVE THOUSAND DOLLAR fine. That's FIVE THOUSAND dollars that could have gone back into the business to make it more competitive and more profitable. That's 5,000 dollars that could have gone to better compensate the employees, that 5,000 dollars that could have been used for something GOOD. Instead, that 5,000 dollars went to the STATE, so that they could pay their little busy-body-bureaucrats to enforce assanine laws which negatively affected me.

Hey, where's Melliferal? I want to hear what he thinks. smile


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#266515 - 12/11/08 09:49 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: Hauser]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
.


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#266518 - 12/11/08 10:35 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: Hauser]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Alan,

If your employer had paid attention to what was going on in his work place. Would he be out of the 5,000 dollars. So who is really at fault anyway.
Do we accept responsiblitiy when we are wrong or choose to pass the buck to someone else.
Or do we choose to blame everything on the 'state'.

Laws are passed to protect children because some parents will not or cannot make responsible decisions on behalf their children.
I know because I have four children 6 years of age and under who are living with me right now for that very reason.
And guess what their parents also refuse to accept responsibility for their actions that caused them to lose their children. They choose to blame everything on the 'state'.
When do we stop blaming others for the situations we find ourselves?. And make the necessary changes to correct them.

When do we quit complaining about things and start taking concrete action to remedy these things?

Laws are enacted and they can be and are repealed all the time.
But it is easier to cry in our beer and to complain how unfair the bureaucrats in Washington,Sacromento..etc are.

Today I choose not to cry in my beer.

Mark-I think it was plainly visible that I was referring to myself and not to others. But people choose to read what they want into things.
As for election process that could be changed too if enough people choose to
address this issue and put in the time and effort to change it.
Not even the constitution is ecthed in stone. It has been amended at times.


Mike





_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#266520 - 12/11/08 10:50 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: michael banks]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
.


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#266521 - 12/11/08 11:01 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: MarkK]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Mark,

If you want to take things I say out of context and continue to play the victim.
Well that is your choice.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#266716 - 12/12/08 11:39 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: Hauser]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: Hauser

I just don't know WHAT we would do without busy-bureaucrats!!

"State Silences Young Guitarist"



Local Story Posted Here:


What a crock. It's not like the kid was asking for drinks (I think).

When somebody made a law that said "no kids in bars", I think it's safe to assume they weren't thinking of entertainers like this. Sadly, though, the law fairly applies to them I guess. Perhaps the law should be changed.

If I could bitch-slap any government official, this one is at the top of my list.





Edited by melliferal (12/12/08 11:40 AM)
_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#266718 - 12/12/08 11:50 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: melliferal]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
Well, the kid can still play in a church, though that might not be all that good for him either. Hope that he can find a legitimate venue to continue his musical development in that is free from undesirable influence. He could always play for donations on the sidewalk or down at a city park, I suppose.

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#266719 - 12/12/08 11:56 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: Trucker51]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11026
Loc: Denver, CO
I just don't get it. This kid is gonna be famous one day for his skill, and this bureau-rat shuts him down.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#266771 - 12/12/08 05:11 PM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: FormerTexan]
Logan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/05/03
Posts: 1205
Loc: NY
the fucker is just jealous.

No that may not be true but Come on!!!! He would be with a TRUSTED Parent!!!!

I agree with you 100%, Alan

Loge

_________________________
"Terrible thing to live in Fear"-Shawshank Redemption
WOR Alumnus Hope Springs 2009
"Quite a thing to live in fear, this is what is means to be a slave"
-Blade Runner

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#266782 - 12/12/08 05:35 PM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: Logan]
MrEdd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 317
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Logan


No that may not be true but Come on!!!! He would be with a TRUSTED Parent!!!!



Your life experience which seems to automatically grant parents some status as protectors (competent ones at that) ... Is diametrically opposed to my experience.

You are not going to advance the proposition that parents have the safety of their children in mine on a male survivor board unopposed. Which is as it should be.

Perhaps you might consider thinking before typing. How do you suppose a lot of us came to be here?

_________________________
Some Things are not problems to be solved, rather, they are facts which must be coped with over time.

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#266786 - 12/12/08 05:50 PM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: MrEdd]
Logan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/05/03
Posts: 1205
Loc: NY
I was just saying that the kid gets along with his dad and from the interview, it clearly seemed to be Kosher, capiche?

You think only parents do this shit?!? Maybe you should think about that, before responding!!!

oh yeah and I said "TRUSTED parent" not parent, maybe some thicker glasses then, mate

Logan



Edited by Logan (12/12/08 06:04 PM)
_________________________
"Terrible thing to live in Fear"-Shawshank Redemption
WOR Alumnus Hope Springs 2009
"Quite a thing to live in fear, this is what is means to be a slave"
-Blade Runner

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#266787 - 12/12/08 06:25 PM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: Logan]
Hauser Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States

Hi Mr. Ed.

Hey, we're all well aware of abusive parents, yours (or one of them) appear to have been among them, from what you say. This is a horrible reality that I've never forgotten.

That having been said, let's keep the perspective of this thread focused in off-topic mode, shall we?

We're talking about a busy-body government employee who's merely covering his ass in the unlikely event that this kid ever happens to slip and fall on a beer cap or whatever, in the bars or taverns in question. Oh! (how could we forget?) and to keep his coveted position with it's pension and full-benefits package in place in the unlikely event that this might occur. Personally, I think he should have to work a REAL job that patrons are actually willing to voluntarily pay for, like I have always done, but that will probably never happen since he's probably got his cushy government job for life.

I guess my point is that he doesn't HAVE to enforce the law, he's merely doing so because he considers the security of his personal lifestyle is more important to him than refusing to enforce an unjust law, with it's POSSIBLE negative consequences for him.

But who cares? He's just a kid who's pursuing a dream and not hurting anyone, he doesn't matter. All that matters is the law. Every law is just. Every law perfect. Every law deserves respect and unquestioned obedience.


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#266811 - 12/12/08 07:33 PM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: Hauser]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Alan,

I am sure this one government employee probably didn't write this law or even voted to have it passed. He is probably just the poor bastard whose job it is to enforce the law pass by his state government. For all we know he feels the same way about this law as you do. And like every employee he cannot choose what part of his job he will do. Just because he does not agree with that aspect of his job duties.

How can you judge a person you don't even know?
Can we just paint every individual with a broad brush of judgement by what his employment or whatever else we choose to focus on that we don't like.
Sounds like something that we in this country have been trying to overcome in the last few decades.

Not every law is just,perfect,or even needed. But until they are changed or removed we still have to obey them.
And to change them we have to do more than just complain about them.


Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#267066 - 12/14/08 01:30 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: michael banks]
king tut Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2465
Loc: UK
the kids really good, got definite skill and probably pushy parents, i think he deserves to still be able to play music in those places, but you cant have a law for some and not for others, it would require redefining the law, but if you redefine the law for one child occupation you have to consider redefining it for all the other child occupations and who knows where to draw the line, yeah it is a nanny-state, but it would probably be more of a micromanagement if we split the laws into tiny segments which could end with ridiculous results that we too would complain about all day long (eg. child musicians with guitars can play in bars but child musicians with trumpets can't- because of passive smoke etc, and with everything re-evaluated there will end up being more out-there reasonings and the country would spend all its time trying to iron out the creases and nothing would get done)

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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#267095 - 12/14/08 11:35 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: king tut]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
While prescribing a medication for me at the doctor's office, I asked my doctor how they arrived at the necessary dosage for me. He said that they used what worked most effectively for fifty-one percent of the population, then, adjusted it upward or, down, depending on my needs.

That's just a little scary, too...uh?

Not unlike legislating the cooking oil for our French fries...

Legislating responsibility is alwaysa crap shoot, uh?


:-)


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#267251 - 12/15/08 09:33 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: king tut]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: king tut
the kids really good, got definite skill and probably pushy parents...


Sadly, all my life I have not encountered a single kid who truly excelled (by an adult standard) at something that was NOT pushed excessively by his or her parents. Surely they must be out there, but I haven't met a one.

Anyway, changing the subject - I'm not ready to condemn government or our system of laws for situations like this. Think about the many hundreds, if not thousands, of falsely-convicted persons who have been exonerated since the advent of DNA evidence. It would be like looking at all those innocent people and saying "Juries wrongly sent these people to jail. Jury trials should be abolished."



Edited by melliferal (12/15/08 09:36 AM)
_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#267359 - 12/16/08 03:00 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: melliferal]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca

One Question

Is not a child innocences the most important thing.
You are only a child but for a short period of time.
You have all the rest of your life to be adult and do the adult thing.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#458216 - 01/08/14 12:55 AM Re: Thank God We Have Government [Re: Hauser]
victor-victim Offline


Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: O Kanada

toddlers with tiaras?
_________________________
Victor|Victim

War
Love
Poetry

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