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#265056 - 12/03/08 03:26 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Stretch73]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
How about drug addicts that get others to abuse drugs too??? How many of us that have abused drugs or alcohol have ever pushed someone else into using or abusing more than they wanted to or should have? I can think of lots of circumstances in my background where group drug-using behavior got out-of-hand and someone suffered as a result. How many times have you drinker-types had a friend get a drunk-driving charge or have an accident while intoxicated after a hard night of drinking with you? How many of you drug users have had a friend have some kind of drug-related trouble or maybe lost a job after you were partying with them? A whole number of small-time drug dealers sell drugs in order to overcome their social inadequacies. They buy the popularity that they can't achieve on their own through selling drugs. Should we treat many small-time drug dealers like victims or people with problems too?

I remember a night in my early 20s when we were driving around in my old van doing blotter. One guy didn't want to do any because he had to be at work at 6:00 AM. Three different people in the van slipped him a single hit of blotter in his beer during the course of the night. I stopped on the side of the road and we had a discussion to see how many hits of blotter had gone into this guy's beer after I saw my friend riding shotgun slip a hit into his beer. We were just drug-adled kids trying to get stoned despite our individual histories of abuse, and as a result, one of us got really stoned against his will and lost his job. I remember another night at a bar when we got really smashed and then one of my ex-wife's brothers got popped for DUI, or another night when several friends from the bar got in a bad accident after we all sat around drinking and egging each other on with rounds of kamikaze's.

One of my roommates in the Twin Cities was a really insecure guy who had never had any friends before he began selling coke in the D.C. area. He was always wondering if I still liked him even though he was 40 years old. Another guy that I knew that sold coke had a heart condition that prevented him from working outside his house, and also prevented him from socializing in a normal manner. But when he sold coke, he had lots of people coming over to see him. Even I sold stuff on a small-scale basis for a while when I was new in Cleveland and didn't know anyone. I got to know lots of users as a result, which wasn't all that good for me either. I never used drugs IV before I met a couple of brothers in Cleveland selling them weed.

So the notion that drug addicts only hurt themselves is wrong, as is the notion that all drug dealers are out to hurt other people. Addiction is a medically-treatable condition, as is social anxiety. And the jails are full of addicts and small-time dealers who could be much better served elsewhere.

Is child abuse a medically-treatable condition and could the needs of child abusers be better served in treatment rather than in jails?

In my professional opinion the answer to that question would be no, except perhaps in the cases of children and adolescents, perhaps even young adults, who have some history of being abused themselves. Beyond a certain age or level of maturity, there is little doubt that someone should know right from wrong. Is child sexual abuse an addictive behavior? Quite possibly. Does that possibility mitigate the effects for victims? Probably not. Should perpetrators be given treatment rather than have to face the harsh realities of group incarceration?

There are two sides to every story and each side has both merit and negative possibilities too. Only a small percentage of murderers kill again following a prison stay. Does the small possibility that someone will kill again outweigh the chance at redemption that the majority currently has?

For whatever reason I believe that the vast majority of the less-violent criminal population could be better served with treatment rather than through the current system, and that both addictive users and most small drug dealers deserve treatment rather than criminal sanction. Treatment and repaying a victim's costs might be a much better way to deal with crimes against a person than through any debt to society type of incarceration remedy, at least the first-time that an offender comes through the justice system.

Just my feelings, not meant to stir-up a hornet's nest.

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#265061 - 12/03/08 04:25 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Trucker51]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Mark,

If you do the crime you should have to do the time.
But maybe the roots of why the crime were committed need to be addressed as well as the conquences for such crime.

What came first the addict or the criminal?

I don't know about your situation but I had committed very few crimes until I allow my addictions to consume me. And most of the crime I committed were a direct result of my addictions.
Now that I am clean and sober I have become alot better person and citizen who is very unlikely to commit the crimes that I had prior to this change.

I do not know much about abusers and what demons drive them to do that which they do. But I know the demons that drove my addictions. And I have learn to make peace with those things that gave those demons all their power.

Can abusers be so different?

Just a question.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#265068 - 12/03/08 04:57 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: michael banks]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
You guys are trying to excuse their behavior and deminish their responsibility to NEVER hurt a child.

Why do they abuse children? Because they choose to do so. It is where they get gratification.

Addicts are a separate issue, I've had every opportunity to use and never did, free supply, peer pressure, open access, every reason to use and never did... explain that.

At some point there is a choice, it is no one elses but that individual. All I ever say is discipline those who can not discipline themselves for the sake of children. You can educate them and try to deter them anyway you want but it still boils down to their choice and their selfishness. You can give them the opportunity to do the right thing, this is a pass or fail subject. A perp that can eventually be deemed a "good person" does not ever relinquish them from what they have done to their victims.

Prove your point and convince just one of my perps to come forward, help me to not be hurt anymore. Draw a freaken' line and stick to it!!! What is so hard to understand about that?

They have access to help prior to ever hurting a kid. Prevention involves their participation one way or another, either voluntarily or by force. Their demons belong to them but nothing makes them do what they do, they still choose.



Edited by usmc97 (12/03/08 05:06 PM)
_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#265070 - 12/03/08 05:17 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: usmc97]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
USMC,

Just thinking out loud.
I am sorry if this upset you.
Semper Fi,my devildog brother.
USMC 79-83

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#265179 - 12/04/08 09:54 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: michael banks]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I'm always amazed when people have such "expert" opinions without A) a degree in psychology or B) life experience.

I don't really know what it's like to be a compulsive shopper. I don't know the psychology behind it or the life experiences of those individuals who compulsively shop. So, realistically speaking, I have zero context in this matter.

So, really, I don't know or have any facts about that condition. I have "facts" (my personal, non-expert opinions), but really I don't have any footing to make diagnoses or prognoses, I feel.

And I certainly don't have the training, the life experience or the right to call compulsive shoppers unchangeable.

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#265203 - 12/04/08 12:35 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: AndyJB2005]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
I do have 3 million miles of commercial driving experience all over the US and some experience in Ontario, Canada too, as well as a liberal education. I am also a licensed private pilot. In addition to my nearly 30 years of experience as a professional driver I also have 5 years of experience in drug abuse and CSA recovery, and over 25 years of experience as an addict in my past too. And both my mother and mother-in-law are compulsive shoppers but they have their differences too.

My mother-in-law is mid-80s and homebound disabled, who so loves the attention that she gets from talking to the shopping channel customer service people that she has memorized her credit-card number. Every week a dozen more packages show-up in the mail and have to be returned. Every couple of days she is angry because something that she ordered hasn't yet arrived. The problem of the homebound elderly and the home shopping channels is something that a lot of us don't know about.

My mother is different. She has the money to shop the best stores and 5000 sq. ft. to store it all in. Heck, she just had the 3-car garage on her house remodeled into living space so that there would be another 600 sq. ft of space to display her purchases inside. I would guess that my mother enjoys the power and prestige that she feels wielding her bevy of platinum cards through shopping's version of La-La land. Not only that, but my mother is a bit of a sugar addict and a religion addict too. Is it any wonder that all three of her kids have had their own struggles with addictive and/or compulsive behaviors too?

In neither case has any amount of reason been able to reign-in their addictive/compulsive shopping behavior. In the case of my mother-in-law, the problem has been dealt with by returning her purchases. Any attempt to disable her credit has been met with extreme hostility and her behavior is not unlike the behavior of other addicts in that sense. So far my mother's shopping has not had the same effect yet she is running-out of space, and the possibility of purchasing more living/storage space is becoming an issue. My mother is 77 years old and has at least a few years left until us kids will have the responsibility of going through and disposing of her lifetime of addictive accumulation.

Just need a few more years of experience under your belt Andy, and you too will be able to offer expert opinion on a number of matters. The treatment of addictive and compulsive behaviors and the effects of such behaviors will become one of your specialties if you hang around the recovery crowd long enough.

Smile, have fun, and have a good day!

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#265210 - 12/04/08 01:10 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Trucker51]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I was merely using compulsive shopping as an example, lol, and as an analogy to abusers -- but thanks, Mark. smile

I'm just trying to make the point that unless you're an abuser, or you're someone with extensive training to treat them, we can't flip out our laymen prognoses (the determination of whether they have the ability to change or not) -- not with any amount of credibility, anyway.

I don't feel I, as a victim, am unbiased enough to make such determinations. I have a lot of emotions going against my dad, which I use to judge him and other abusers.

And how much of my rhetorical "they will never change" drum beat is based out of those emotions rather than reasoning and logic? How much of that emotion is implanted in my decision that they can never change and be productive members of society?

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#265219 - 12/04/08 01:27 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: AndyJB2005]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I just wanted to add:

I feel being a victim doesn't give one experience to, and make one an expert on, abusers. Certainly it makes one a first-hand expert on victimization and the feelings behind that, however. smile

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#265223 - 12/04/08 01:53 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: AndyJB2005]
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Hi Andy

These types of dialogues have always reminded me of those talk radio programs where people call up
& weigh in on the topic du jour.

I think they may help some people feel the "courage of their convictions" on the one hand which might be helpful.
Perhaps gain some insight, blow off some steam & feel "empowered" in the process.

On the other, they can make it quite plain who ones "friends" & "foes" are too.
(if that is how one gauges their involvement with others)

C




Edited by ineffable (12/04/08 01:53 PM)
Edit Reason: layout
_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#265224 - 12/04/08 02:06 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: ineffable]
Ozmosis Offline


Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 4
I don't know if what I'm about to say has already been said (I only read the 1st and last page) but through my own experiences abusers do what they do for power. The feeling of power for themselves and power over their victim. This might not pertain to everyone, but I feel that at least someone who has been abused and becomes an abuser themself does it for the feeling of power.

What I mean is...instead of staying the victim, they themselves seek power and become the abuser. After being abused myself I had a lot of the same thoughts. Wanting to be dominant over someone else. To be in that position of power and control. Because when you're in that position, you don't feel like the victim anymore. When you're abusing someone, you don't feel vulnerable anymore. You feel invincible. Before seeking help I was tempted many times to be an abuser myself. The only thing holding me back was the sickening feeling of actually violating someone else. It was disgusting.

So anyways, I believe a lot of abusers do it for power. They flip- flop feelings of vulnerability to feelings of control and become something that makes them feel safe. Also, when they are the abuser, they get to have power and control over someone they "use to be"...the victim. I hope this makes sense.


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