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#263998 - 11/27/08 10:44 AM Why do abusers abuse?
steveb121 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Swindon, UK
.


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#264026 - 11/27/08 12:46 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: steveb121]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
Of course there are different types of pedophiles.

About 2 and a half years ago I read a book:

Conversations with a Pedophile: In the Interest of Our Children, by Amy Hamel-Zabin

http://www.amazon.com/Conversations-Pedo...6930&sr=1-1

Apparently this book is hard to get now as it has gone out of print. But the book really burned my eye sockets out. The guy who was interviewed in prison and by letters for this book was very explicit about how his habit originated. He started fantasizing in childhood about how to do it. What an evil guy! Don't read it! For all Ts it will show you how this kind of mind works.

He perped in Texas I believe. Some of his victims may be on this MS Site. He was very smart and very smooth socially. He made intricate plans as to how snare his victims. How tragic. He offered to have himself castrated because he said that would stop his behavior after he left prison. But the "system" wouldn't allow it. He was symptom free in prison. He took a drug which quelled his sexual desire and then as long as he took it he didn't perpetrate. It makes me so sad about what he did to the boys he perped. He finally got caught of course.

I have this book still but I can't find it right now. It should be required reading by all legitimate scout leaders.

Allen

pufferfish whistle


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#264030 - 11/27/08 12:49 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: pufferfish]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Here I go again.....

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#264040 - 11/27/08 01:16 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: steveb121]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Quote:
the very least we can do, as a society, is jail abusers for life, meaning life, so they can never harm a child again,

My position exactly. The problem with this aproach is the bleeding hearts! They so strongly advocate for rehabilitation and they scream it out so loudly.

All credible and peer reviewed scientific studies show that paedophiles are not capable of rehabilitation by virtue of the fact that they have always had the propensity to engage sexually with children. To rehabilitate suggests bringing the subject back to the time in his life when he did not have sexual desires for children - with paedophiles that is not the case.

Sexual orientation is hard wired - some are heterosexual, some are homosexual and while you can certainly get a straight guy to have a Gay experience you will in no way turn him into ahomosexual for as much.

Paedophiles are hard wired to be what they are and all the therapy in the world is not going to make them sexually attracted to their peer group.

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

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#264043 - 11/27/08 01:28 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: usmc97]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
They are predators like animals are predators, they don't accidentally hurt a child, children are their prey. They can even be closely related to a severe addict where children are their vice. For some it might have been a one time thing, extremely rare, but it does not take away that that one time may have destroyed a life. For most they can not stop themselves, they may have one victim or many victims to which they repeatedly harm. There is no clear reason why an adult male or female “hurts” a child other than they are either sick or evil, neither remove them from their deeds. There are always the excuses…. of them being abused as a kid or it being a “mistake” among other things. The adult carries the burden of securing boundaries, there is NOTHING a child can do to make an adult “hurt” them.

Now where I step on people's toes is that I don't believe in absolute recovery for them.... why? because in order for that to happen they would have to completely take responsibility in every faction of the word, which for the most part, I believe to be beyond their ability. Recovery for them would have to include complete vulnerability, complete honesty, and complete discloser…. of course there is no such thing as a relapse or “acting out” with them because that gives leeway for them to have another victim. Also they would need to have a complete willingness to accept punishment, public ridicule, provide restitution, and at the very least carry some marker to be publicly recognized if they are to be reintroduced into society. All of these things should be required of them FOR LIFE, they will never stop on their own, I don’t believe any single one of them has ever came forward on their own recognizance. They are cowardly, self preservationist who are oblivious to what they do to their victims and the life sentence they created upon a person. I am 100% disabled, chronically afflicted, and cannot support myself as a direct result of my perps.

Some people who have the potential to become perps, those who have not yet victimized, have plenty of ways to go about help in ways of prevention. If they do not take the route of prevention themselves the choice is theirs to become what they become. There is just not a learning curve where any of it is okay, there is no difference to me between those who just look at pictures of kids and those who do things like my perps.

Now I don't believe we should jail all of them for life, though some need to be. I've said it before to somehow segregate them from children for life, if that's too hard to do then yes imprisonment. They can still live a productive life in a controlled society away from prison and work toward some kind of redemption but by no means do I believe they should ever even see a child again.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#264052 - 11/27/08 03:43 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: joelRT]
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
Originally Posted By: joelRT
All credible and peer reviewed scientific studies show that paedophiles are not capable of rehabilitation by virtue of the fact that they have always had the propensity to engage sexually with children. To rehabilitate suggests bringing the subject back to the time in his life when he did not have sexual desires for children - with paedophiles that is not the case.


Well, that's not how rehabilitation works. What they do is attempt to force people to empathize with their victims, force them to take responsibility for their actions and force them to acknowledge how flawed they are. A lot of the treatment involves aversion techniques that force offenders (both adults and children) to associate being sexually aroused with negative things. A lot the treatment is court ordered (especially with youth offenders), so the people have little choice in the matter (they can back out, but it usually results in them remaining in prison or with youth offenders being placed in foster care where the treatment will be forced on them anyway) and it generally gets the desired result. Most people come out of such treatment with a much lower chance of re-offending.

The one young man I knew who was in treatment never abused anyone after he completed it. He did seem rather traumatized by, but never spoke about what occurred. Although we later found out that he had admitted to act he hadn't done and probably should not have been in treatment, it seemed fairly effective.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#264056 - 11/27/08 03:54 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: jacobtk]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
I am confused how can a treatment be considered effective?
When the subject didn't really need the treatment in the first place.

Shit, I see why he would be traumatized.
I will bet you a hundred dollars that he is a csa survivor.
Who got revictimized again.

Did he ever get treatment to recover from his treatment?

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#264057 - 11/27/08 04:04 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: jacobtk]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Jacob,

Please don't misunderstand me here, OK? I'm not being argumentative nor am I challenging you.

It's just that Aversion Therapy is a hotly debated technique in the scientific community and no concensuss as to it's effecay has ever been established. While in some instances it may help certain individuals, it is dangerous to hope that it can be applied as a broad-based solution.

And lastly, court ordered therapy is not at all the same thing as someone seeking out help of their own volition because they recognize that they have a problem and sincerely wish to resolve it.

I was ordered to go anger management group sessions by the courts. It was a fifteen week deal and at any given time we were about twelve participants with three moderators. What a crock!!! We basically sat there for two and half hours a week and fed the mods the answers that we felt they wanted to hear. In all honesty, I probably spoke three words of truth the whole time I was there. For the other guys the same thing applied.

I GRADUATED!!!!!!!!!!! The report that the moderator team made to the courts stated that Mr X (me) had made great progress in addessing his anger issues and that it was their professional opinion that I was low risk to re-offend.

You can't make someone get well without their will to do so.

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

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#264058 - 11/27/08 04:15 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: michael banks]
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
Mike, he never said he hadn't committed the act. That was determined by the court. Maybe he did something else. You're not allowed ask foster kids about what happened to them and he never talked about it, so I couldn't say.

His reaction seemed consistent with what I've heard and read about other people who were in treatment. He kept himself away from younger children, kept journals, seemed to avoid situations where he might offend, avoided certain kinds of movies and TV shows, things of that nature. Most of the information says that this treatment works, even if it is rather abusive. The recidivism rate for people in sex offender treatment is much lower than those who don't take it.

I think people just conflate treatment with cure. Nobody can be cured of hurting others, but they can learn to control their behavior. I think in instances where a person can't do that or refuses to do that then we should lock them up for life. Otherwise, the treatment seems like the best option.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#264060 - 11/27/08 04:24 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: joelRT]
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
Originally Posted By: joelRT
And lastly, court ordered therapy is not at all the same thing as someone seeking out help of their own volition because they recognize that they have a problem and sincerely wish to resolve it.


You'll get no disagreement with me there. I don't like court-ordered treatment because the person could just be going through the motions. I also don't like it because it's probably applied in instances where it shouldn't be or used as a means just getting a person to plead guilty.

I don't support aversion therapy at all. I don't like the idea of forcing someone to associate bad things with their sexuality, sexual impulses or with who they are. It's little more than thinly veiled emotional and sexual abuse. However, it also works, and since the goal is to prevent people from re-offending and no one particularly cares whether sex offenders are harmed in the process, it might as well be applied.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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