Newest Members
RodrigoBR, MJ545, Marant, BeingFound, journey4two
12332 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
cricket453 (60)
Who's Online
4 registered (bluesky, MissesMe, 2 invisible), 17 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12332 Members
74 Forums
63412 Topics
443341 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... 9 10 >
Topic Options
#263998 - 11/27/08 10:44 AM Why do abusers abuse?
steveb121 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Swindon, UK
.


Top
#264026 - 11/27/08 12:46 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: steveb121]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6855
Loc: USA
Of course there are different types of pedophiles.

About 2 and a half years ago I read a book:

Conversations with a Pedophile: In the Interest of Our Children, by Amy Hamel-Zabin

http://www.amazon.com/Conversations-Pedo...6930&sr=1-1

Apparently this book is hard to get now as it has gone out of print. But the book really burned my eye sockets out. The guy who was interviewed in prison and by letters for this book was very explicit about how his habit originated. He started fantasizing in childhood about how to do it. What an evil guy! Don't read it! For all Ts it will show you how this kind of mind works.

He perped in Texas I believe. Some of his victims may be on this MS Site. He was very smart and very smooth socially. He made intricate plans as to how snare his victims. How tragic. He offered to have himself castrated because he said that would stop his behavior after he left prison. But the "system" wouldn't allow it. He was symptom free in prison. He took a drug which quelled his sexual desire and then as long as he took it he didn't perpetrate. It makes me so sad about what he did to the boys he perped. He finally got caught of course.

I have this book still but I can't find it right now. It should be required reading by all legitimate scout leaders.

Allen

pufferfish whistle


Top
#264030 - 11/27/08 12:49 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: pufferfish]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Here I go again.....

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

Top
#264040 - 11/27/08 01:16 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: steveb121]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Quote:
the very least we can do, as a society, is jail abusers for life, meaning life, so they can never harm a child again,

My position exactly. The problem with this aproach is the bleeding hearts! They so strongly advocate for rehabilitation and they scream it out so loudly.

All credible and peer reviewed scientific studies show that paedophiles are not capable of rehabilitation by virtue of the fact that they have always had the propensity to engage sexually with children. To rehabilitate suggests bringing the subject back to the time in his life when he did not have sexual desires for children - with paedophiles that is not the case.

Sexual orientation is hard wired - some are heterosexual, some are homosexual and while you can certainly get a straight guy to have a Gay experience you will in no way turn him into ahomosexual for as much.

Paedophiles are hard wired to be what they are and all the therapy in the world is not going to make them sexually attracted to their peer group.

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

Top
#264043 - 11/27/08 01:28 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: usmc97]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
They are predators like animals are predators, they don't accidentally hurt a child, children are their prey. They can even be closely related to a severe addict where children are their vice. For some it might have been a one time thing, extremely rare, but it does not take away that that one time may have destroyed a life. For most they can not stop themselves, they may have one victim or many victims to which they repeatedly harm. There is no clear reason why an adult male or female “hurts” a child other than they are either sick or evil, neither remove them from their deeds. There are always the excuses…. of them being abused as a kid or it being a “mistake” among other things. The adult carries the burden of securing boundaries, there is NOTHING a child can do to make an adult “hurt” them.

Now where I step on people's toes is that I don't believe in absolute recovery for them.... why? because in order for that to happen they would have to completely take responsibility in every faction of the word, which for the most part, I believe to be beyond their ability. Recovery for them would have to include complete vulnerability, complete honesty, and complete discloser…. of course there is no such thing as a relapse or “acting out” with them because that gives leeway for them to have another victim. Also they would need to have a complete willingness to accept punishment, public ridicule, provide restitution, and at the very least carry some marker to be publicly recognized if they are to be reintroduced into society. All of these things should be required of them FOR LIFE, they will never stop on their own, I don’t believe any single one of them has ever came forward on their own recognizance. They are cowardly, self preservationist who are oblivious to what they do to their victims and the life sentence they created upon a person. I am 100% disabled, chronically afflicted, and cannot support myself as a direct result of my perps.

Some people who have the potential to become perps, those who have not yet victimized, have plenty of ways to go about help in ways of prevention. If they do not take the route of prevention themselves the choice is theirs to become what they become. There is just not a learning curve where any of it is okay, there is no difference to me between those who just look at pictures of kids and those who do things like my perps.

Now I don't believe we should jail all of them for life, though some need to be. I've said it before to somehow segregate them from children for life, if that's too hard to do then yes imprisonment. They can still live a productive life in a controlled society away from prison and work toward some kind of redemption but by no means do I believe they should ever even see a child again.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

Top
#264052 - 11/27/08 03:43 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: joelRT]
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
Originally Posted By: joelRT
All credible and peer reviewed scientific studies show that paedophiles are not capable of rehabilitation by virtue of the fact that they have always had the propensity to engage sexually with children. To rehabilitate suggests bringing the subject back to the time in his life when he did not have sexual desires for children - with paedophiles that is not the case.


Well, that's not how rehabilitation works. What they do is attempt to force people to empathize with their victims, force them to take responsibility for their actions and force them to acknowledge how flawed they are. A lot of the treatment involves aversion techniques that force offenders (both adults and children) to associate being sexually aroused with negative things. A lot the treatment is court ordered (especially with youth offenders), so the people have little choice in the matter (they can back out, but it usually results in them remaining in prison or with youth offenders being placed in foster care where the treatment will be forced on them anyway) and it generally gets the desired result. Most people come out of such treatment with a much lower chance of re-offending.

The one young man I knew who was in treatment never abused anyone after he completed it. He did seem rather traumatized by, but never spoke about what occurred. Although we later found out that he had admitted to act he hadn't done and probably should not have been in treatment, it seemed fairly effective.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

Top
#264056 - 11/27/08 03:54 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: jacobtk]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
I am confused how can a treatment be considered effective?
When the subject didn't really need the treatment in the first place.

Shit, I see why he would be traumatized.
I will bet you a hundred dollars that he is a csa survivor.
Who got revictimized again.

Did he ever get treatment to recover from his treatment?

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

Top
#264057 - 11/27/08 04:04 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: jacobtk]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Jacob,

Please don't misunderstand me here, OK? I'm not being argumentative nor am I challenging you.

It's just that Aversion Therapy is a hotly debated technique in the scientific community and no concensuss as to it's effecay has ever been established. While in some instances it may help certain individuals, it is dangerous to hope that it can be applied as a broad-based solution.

And lastly, court ordered therapy is not at all the same thing as someone seeking out help of their own volition because they recognize that they have a problem and sincerely wish to resolve it.

I was ordered to go anger management group sessions by the courts. It was a fifteen week deal and at any given time we were about twelve participants with three moderators. What a crock!!! We basically sat there for two and half hours a week and fed the mods the answers that we felt they wanted to hear. In all honesty, I probably spoke three words of truth the whole time I was there. For the other guys the same thing applied.

I GRADUATED!!!!!!!!!!! The report that the moderator team made to the courts stated that Mr X (me) had made great progress in addessing his anger issues and that it was their professional opinion that I was low risk to re-offend.

You can't make someone get well without their will to do so.

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

Top
#264058 - 11/27/08 04:15 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: michael banks]
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
Mike, he never said he hadn't committed the act. That was determined by the court. Maybe he did something else. You're not allowed ask foster kids about what happened to them and he never talked about it, so I couldn't say.

His reaction seemed consistent with what I've heard and read about other people who were in treatment. He kept himself away from younger children, kept journals, seemed to avoid situations where he might offend, avoided certain kinds of movies and TV shows, things of that nature. Most of the information says that this treatment works, even if it is rather abusive. The recidivism rate for people in sex offender treatment is much lower than those who don't take it.

I think people just conflate treatment with cure. Nobody can be cured of hurting others, but they can learn to control their behavior. I think in instances where a person can't do that or refuses to do that then we should lock them up for life. Otherwise, the treatment seems like the best option.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

Top
#264060 - 11/27/08 04:24 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: joelRT]
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
Originally Posted By: joelRT
And lastly, court ordered therapy is not at all the same thing as someone seeking out help of their own volition because they recognize that they have a problem and sincerely wish to resolve it.


You'll get no disagreement with me there. I don't like court-ordered treatment because the person could just be going through the motions. I also don't like it because it's probably applied in instances where it shouldn't be or used as a means just getting a person to plead guilty.

I don't support aversion therapy at all. I don't like the idea of forcing someone to associate bad things with their sexuality, sexual impulses or with who they are. It's little more than thinly veiled emotional and sexual abuse. However, it also works, and since the goal is to prevent people from re-offending and no one particularly cares whether sex offenders are harmed in the process, it might as well be applied.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

Top
#264061 - 11/27/08 04:33 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: michael banks]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6855
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: michael banks

I will bet you a hundred dollars that he is a csa survivor.

Did he ever get treatment to recover from his treatment?


Mike and Joel,

If you are talking about the guy I gave the book review of, no, he definitesly was not csa'd as a child. He received treatment in prison. He had full understanding of what he was doing. He did have a conscience. He was not a sociopath or psychopath.

Allen = pufferfish whistle




Top
#264063 - 11/27/08 04:39 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: pufferfish]
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
I think he was referring to the young man I mentioned. I couldn't say whether he was or wasn't. He never spoke about it.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

Top
#264065 - 11/27/08 04:59 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: jacobtk]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Jacob,

I know from presonal experience that children who suffer abuse whether it be sexual,physical,emotional,or neglect will cope to things that they did not do. Just because they feel guilty from the abuse that they suffered. As if their abuse was their fault and so is everything else.

Having to deal with the foster care system here in Calfinoria.
I feel sorry for any kid that gets caught up in that system.
Sometimes it is harder to tell which is worse the foster system or their family of orgin.

As for offenders I do not hold out much hope in many of them truely changing.
My perp is eighty years old and I know that he was offending up until the time he was placed in prison in his seventies.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

Top
#264068 - 11/27/08 05:36 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: michael banks]
steveb121 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Swindon, UK
.


Top
#264092 - 11/27/08 08:55 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: michael banks]
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
Mike,

I think that some offenders can change. Some certainly want to and make the effort to, so I think it's possible. If offenders can't change their behavior despite the way they think, then what does that say about other criminals? What does it say about us? I think if people look for the best solutions rather than the most punitive solutions, try to help them rather than punish them via treatment, then maybe some headway can be made.

When we say nothing can be done, we're in effect saying its not worth the effort to try preventing the abuse from happening in the first place. I think sexual abuse is preventable, so I have to think that sex offenders can be helped.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

Top
#264095 - 11/27/08 09:32 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: jacobtk]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Jacob,

Man I owe you an apology. I've been so busy trying to score points off you laugh that I neglected the most important thing of all. It's a pleasure to meet you and I hope we can be friends. May we be mutual support for one anothor as we journey on the road to recovery.

Jacob, I've thouroughly enjoyed our little debate today and I sure am looking forward to the next one. It is most enjoyable to me to exchange ideas with an intelligent, if a little opinionated laugh guy and when it remains within the realm of mutual respect of each others differences, I find it all great fun as well as informative and enlightening.

Your new friend



Edited by joelRT (11/28/08 05:06 AM)
Edit Reason: because I'm a dumb ass.....
_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

Top
#264132 - 11/28/08 02:18 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: jacobtk]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: jacobtk
If offenders can't change their behavior despite the way they think, then what does that say about other criminals? What does it say about us?
I don't see how it can say anything about us. We are not even in the same catagory as them. Everybody has faults but it is up to each individual to manage themselves especially when it deals with destroying the life of someone else.
Originally Posted By: jacobtk

I think if people look for the best solutions rather than the most punitive solutions, try to help them rather than punish them via treatment, then maybe some headway can be made.


Anything that reinforces their wrong is called punishment. Really... how hard is it to understand that it is unacceptable to hurt a kid? It takes so much damn effort for them to do what they do, most of them are not stupid. They are a breed of their own and are just plain human predators. There are no do overs, once is not tolarable.... we are the aftermath and our numbers grow daily. If someone has even a thought that gives chance to them eventually hurting a kid they should go seek help and take every step to protect children from even themselves. I'd say that very few have even attempted to seek help voluntarily.
Originally Posted By: jacobtk

When we say nothing can be done, we're in effect saying its not worth the effort to try preventing the abuse from happening in the first place. I think sexual abuse is preventable, so I have to think that sex offenders can be helped.


There is very little directions in how to go about really helping them, non of which cater to tolarance. If you use the average addict as a model. Treatment relies on first detox, then education and at no time are they supposed to be reintroduced to their vice for risk of relapse. How would you deal with detox to pedophiles? Remove the presence of children from their life. After that? Educate them. At no time do you release them back to their prey, there is no relapse for them.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

Top
#264144 - 11/28/08 06:47 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: usmc97]
Dusty Boy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 280
Loc: Australia
Here in Australia there is a prison with an offender rehabilitation program. I saw a documentary on it. It’s a voluntary program I think and the way to get into the program is to admit that you offended and want help. The next stage is to acknowledge the damage that you have done in full. I think that is right and I can’t remember the rest. I was impressed by the fact that the men in the documentary were fully visible, not blurred faces and they admitted they were predators. Then talked of the pain and suffering they were responsible for. They showed what I perceived as genuine remorse and did not minimize their role in their offending or offer excuses. I am hoping that this program works. I was impressed.
Dusty


Top
#264155 - 11/28/08 09:45 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Dusty Boy]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
I really don't want to reignite the debate we get around here from time to time about who or what are pedophiles and are they treatable. I just want to clarify a couple of things as a professional who has worked with sexual abusers (juvenile and adult) for 30 years.

The term "pedophile" is a diagnostic term that in reality does not apply to the vast majority of sexual abusers. Yes, there are pedophiles who are not likely to respond to treatment and when caught, they tend to get sent to civil commitment programs after their prison sentences are up. They are pretty dangerous individuals but they represent a small number of the sexual abusers out there, whether caught or not. The fact that an individual sexually abuses a child does not make him automatically a pedophile.

Secondly, the use of aversive conditioning has been pretty much abandoned in the sexual abuser treatment field. The trend for the past few years has been a combination of relapse prevention, empathy work, correcting distorted belief systems and a focus on having a better life that does not include abusing others ("Good Lives Model").

I don't mean to suggest cutting this discussion off, but past experience indicates it will get a bit testy/nasty and people will be polarized into "lock 'em up forever/cut off their nuts" vs. "treatment can work".

Bottom line is that people are operating out of opinion rather than research based facts. If you want to cite legitimate professional journals for articles that support your position one way or another, that's fine. Just remember that we all have opinions and they don't need to be clarified by research to be our opinions.


Top
#264156 - 11/28/08 09:57 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Ken,

You sound like just the kind of guy that I would love to sit down with for about a week and just debate this subject - and I mean this in the nicest and most respectfull way possible.

While I'm not a diploma carrying professional, twenty + years of personal research into all the aspects of why males abuse does make me an expert. Wow, could you and I ever have some serious fun at this.

Have a good day, Ken.

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

Top
#264158 - 11/28/08 10:12 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: joelRT]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
It would be interesting to know though, how many "professionals" in the field read Andrew Vachss. As Burke and the "family" enact their form of justice.


:-)


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

Top
#264159 - 11/28/08 10:15 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: joelRT]
steveb121 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Swindon, UK
.


Top
#264160 - 11/28/08 10:18 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: steveb121]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Steve,



Nooooooooo, really? You mean being a survivor for fifty years means our opinions matter too? Hmmm...better keep that quiet.

As if any statistic could not be read and or manipulated and or used to promote one's own agenda? Imagine that?


:-)


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

Top
#264161 - 11/28/08 10:21 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: ttoon]
steveb121 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Swindon, UK
.





Top
#264165 - 11/28/08 10:40 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: steveb121]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Steve,

Thank you for the validation. It's my personal opinion that we, experts and professionals alike, need to come to a concensuss for a unified approach on the subject of male CSA. I feel that too often we are standing on different sides of the fence and shouting our knowledge back and forth at one another. In the ensuing cacaphony the message just gets lost.

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

Top
#264167 - 11/28/08 10:45 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: joelRT]
steveb121 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Swindon, UK
.



Top
#264168 - 11/28/08 11:13 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: steveb121]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977


So...hmmm? It might not be "all or nothing" thinking that invites us to attach responsibility to every priest as they defend the Catholic church. Since, the Catholic church has shown that it is church first, parishoner last. The movement, the momentum, their agenda is certainly more important than any insignificant collateral damage along the way. What are thousands of victims and their struggles when weighed against the millions that might certainly benefit?

Perhaps, throwing out the notion that sexual predators can be healed in an audience and population looking first for their own salvation might be like sitting down for the first visit with your therapist and them saying, "Okay. Let's talk about forgiveness. You need to forgive. To not let them have this power over you."

Or, maybe not!!!


:-)


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

Top
#264172 - 11/28/08 11:36 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: ttoon]
steveb121 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Swindon, UK
.





Top
#264173 - 11/28/08 11:37 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: joelRT]
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
Originally Posted By: joelRT
Jacob,

Man I owe you an apology. I've been so busy trying to score points off you laugh


You were? That is the nicest attempt to score points I've ever seen. I wish other people were as polite about it, especially when I try to get local centers to provide more services to male victims.

I appreciate your support and kindness. I apologize if that seems somewhat distant, but I'm not good at this sort of thing.



Edited by jacobtk (11/29/08 03:15 AM)
Edit Reason: fix incomplete thought
_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

Top
#264268 - 11/29/08 12:53 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: jacobtk]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Jacob,

I think everybody deserves to be helped if they truely desire it.
But from my experence in AA every few people are able to remain in recovery for any lenght of period. Only the most determine people remain.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

Top
#264286 - 11/29/08 03:54 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: jacobtk]
OKIE MIKE Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 980
Loc: HULBERT OK
in my case I believe that it was because he had the power to and could get away with it .

_________________________
MICHAEL

"I HAD NO SHOES THEN I SAW A MAN THAT HAD NO FEET"

"All I can do is be me, whoever that is"

Top
#264330 - 11/29/08 01:53 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: OKIE MIKE]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6855
Loc: USA
The word "pedophile"


pedo is derived from the greek word for child.

-phile is derived from the word for love.

But it is a misnomer. Pedophiles do not love children, they hate them.

The pedophile wants to dominate; to control; to manipulate. They are selfish and seeking their own interests, their own gratification.


To truly love a child would be to seek the child's best interests.

That would mean making the child feel better about himself, not worse.

That would mean helping the child to trust, not to destroy the child's ability to trust.

That would mean to help the child in his quest for self discovery, not to occlude it.

That would mean to help the child in his impending discovery of sexuality, not to distort or destroy it.

That would mean helping the child to learn to exercise his own will, not to destroy it or manipulate it.


Allen

pufferfish whistle


Top
#264337 - 11/29/08 02:34 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: pufferfish]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
I believe they can be helped but I don't believe they can be healed. Help would be a constant blockade from them to never hurt again. Healing would mean that they can be around children with not a single evil thought running in their head. As long as there is a thought there is a chance. They need life long "help" pretty much as a standard treatment. I am not able to trust that they can be self-reliant when it comes to the safety of children. They need a responsible liason to keep them up to a standard of social being indefinately.

They should be taught to feel ashamed of what they've done, to feel embarrassed, to understand the evil they did. If they are completely unresponsive.... nuke 'em for all I care. The thing is that at any rate they should not be able to entertain even the thought of hurting a kid, no image, no contact, nothing.

There are plenty of perverted adults who prey on 18 year olds, at least give kids a fighting chance up to that age.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

Top
#264339 - 11/29/08 02:50 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: pufferfish]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Allen, and everyone else too

This is going to push so many buttons, but please hear me out before jumping all over me.
Quote:
To truly love a child would be to seek the child's best interests.

That would mean making the child feel better about himself, not worse.

That would mean helping the child to trust, not to destroy the child's ability to trust.

That would mean to help the child in his quest for self discovery, not to occlude it.

That would mean to help the child in his impending discovery of sexuality, not to distort or destroy it.

That would mean helping the child to learn to exercise his own will, not to destroy it or manipulate it.


In ancient Greek culture it was known as Pederasty and was regarded as an honorable practice.
The pederast's role was exactly what Allen describes above. The Greeks had laws governing pederasty and while it was not expressly forbiden to have sexual relations with one's young (read teen) charge the practice was looked down upon and discouraged.

Socrates was a well known pederast and a strong advocate for chaste pederasty.

It was the Romans, with their orgies and sexual mis-use of their slave boys and girls, who perverted pederasty and bequeathed us the normal practice of sex with children.

Don't even get me started on ancient Islam....................

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

Top
#264341 - 11/29/08 02:58 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: joelRT]
king tut Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2466
Loc: UK
yes it is about somebodies perverted desire to control and have power over somebody to make themselves feel good and to get pleasure, it is not about loving a child, if somebody abuses a child they do not love that child, if they cared for a child they would think about their feelings and not just their own sick gratification. I completely agree with Allen.

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


Top
#264343 - 11/29/08 03:04 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: king tut]
steveb121 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Swindon, UK
.


Top
#264349 - 11/29/08 03:19 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: steveb121]
king tut Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2466
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: steveb121
Whereas a pedoscele is a hater of children and is what i call them


i call them much worse than that, but lets not go there, one thing for sure is the things they do are completely despicable, whether it is what they do that we should be angry at or who they are i'm still not sure, i guess we are defined by our actions, but part of me wants to think that their condition is more of a disease, but i guess that is just me still considering whether true reconciliation will ever completely be possible, there are so many "reasons" that these people give for what they do, none are excuses, nothing excuses what they did, and it seems certain that forgiveness is not ever about forgiving them for what they did but is more about letting go- in a way, but that is another arguement that has been done in another good thread. whatever they say after the deed is done and after they have got through the cloud of making excuses to themselves to convince themselves that what they are doing is ok (telling themselves lies like it is not so bad or maybe the child likes it and maybe it wont affect him very much) i am very sure that whilst they are doing this to children they are not thinking about the children they are thinking about themselves. They are selfish people who lie to themselves to convince themselves that what they are doing is ok, all of this damage to a child for their whole life just for the abusers satisfaction.

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


Top
#264350 - 11/29/08 03:21 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: steveb121]
KeithR Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 363
Loc: Georgia
pedoscele - Never heard that word. Maybe it will catch on and bring attention where it is needed


Top
#264352 - 11/29/08 03:30 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: steveb121]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6855
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: steveb121
Whereas a pedoscele is a hater of children and is what i call them


a pedo seal is a baby seal



Allen

pufferfish whistle


Top
#264367 - 11/29/08 04:31 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: pufferfish]
Bewlayb1 Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 241
Loc: NYC
I believe the cliche, you can't love until you love yourself. By extension, all love is based in your feelings of self-worth. A man who beats his wife thinks, deep down, he deserves to be beaten.

Where does that leave pedophiles? I think they all despise themselves, to the point of wanting to ravage themselves. If a man killed a child, my first thought would be that he wished he was dead. It's no different for pedophiles. Self-hating doesn't describe it. The phrase is too weak. I think all pedophiles have such a deep rancor for themselves, they wish they were never born. Where did this sentiment originate? I view it as a psychological mistake, like schizophrenia. An error in development creates a monster. It isn't a twisted sexuality alone. A warped psyche leads to a twisted sexuality.

I reached this conclusion not based on anything I read, but lots and lots of obsessing. I hate all pedophiles. I wish they were all dead. But I see them as victims of their own minds.


Top
#264374 - 11/29/08 04:56 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Bewlayb1]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6855
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Bewlayb1
I believe the cliche, you can't love until you love yourself.
Where does that leave pedophiles? I think they all despise themselves, to the point of wanting to ravage themselves.

I think all pedophiles have such a deep rancor for themselves, they wish they were never born.


Not all pedophiles have a conscience. Some love themselves intensely. We call them sociopaths, or narcissists, or psychopaths.

Quote:

It isn't a twisted sexuality alone. A warped psyche leds to a twisted sexuality.

I reached this conclusion not based on anything I read, but lots and lots of obsessing. I hate all pedophiles. I wish they were all dead. But I see them as victims of their own minds.


Bewlayb1 and Lewis,

Good statements each.

here is a dictionery definition of pederastry
ped·er·ast (pµd“…-r²st”) n. A man who has a sexual relationship with a boy. --ped“er·as”ty n.

In ancient Rome, as I have heard (I wasn't there), half of the population consisted of slaves. Abuse was rife. It was so dangerous for boys that they had to be accompanied to school and back whith special trusted slaves (we call them body guards today). The Emperor Claudius was a pedophile, oops, correction pedoscele, oops correction, pederast.

I saw the movie I Cladius on TV fairly early in my recovery. It nearly made me sick at my stomach. It had terrible triggering in it for me.

http://www.historyinfilm.com/claudius/index.htm

Well, probably "pedoscele" is good for the T, "pedophile" is good for the nonthinking journalist, and "pederast" is good for the angry victim (me).Yes, what do you call the victim?
A survivor?, victim?, or person in recovery, or what?

Allen

pufferfish whistle





Edited by pufferfish (11/29/08 05:09 PM)
Edit Reason: better define the thought

Top
#264378 - 11/29/08 05:30 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: pufferfish]
Bewlayb1 Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 241
Loc: NYC
The teacher who sexually abused me for two years was a sort of narcissist. He was very handsome and muscular. When a girl in my class had a crush on him, I remember him seeming flattered. Ostensibly, he had an extremely high opinion of himself. But, I believe, it only masked his sense of worthlessness. Isn't the most arrogant man ultimately the most self-doubting? Why else would he need the adoration of an eight year old child?

Plus, I never suggested pedophiles had a conscience. In fact, if a pedophile expressed remorse over his crime, there's no way in hell I would believe him. They lie freely to others and they rationalize their actions to themselves.

I hardly know anything about that Ancient Greek business. But here's a thought. The modern world is also rife with pedophiles, they just hide, sneak and skulk like the scourge they are. What if the only difference was that society did not have the same stigma against pedophiles? There weren't more of them, they were just open. It's hard to imagine, because the damage to the victim is so devastating. But, as well, ancient cultures didn't put the same value on human life that we do. It's just a thought.

Interesting discussion, even if it is kind making me sick to my stomach.


Top
#264385 - 11/29/08 06:10 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Bewlayb1]
steveb121 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Swindon, UK
.



Top
#264397 - 11/29/08 07:29 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: steveb121]
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
Well, keep in mind that not everyone who preys on children is necessarily a pedophile. A lot of people who abuse children aren't sexually attracted to them. They do it because they want to, because they like having that kind of power over a person, like when people rape children during war or children in prison.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

Top
#264400 - 11/29/08 07:51 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: jacobtk]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Thank you Jacob,

I'm a fervent advocate for appropriate vocabulary, Unfortunately in today's media driven sound-bite race the proper and technical definitions get jumbled together for the sake of expediency. The tragedy that this has caused, of course, is that while everyone loves to bang the drum denouncing chlid sexual abuse, they are all marching to different paces for a most discorcordant result.

A paedophile is not an aelophile is not a molester is not a rapist.........................

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

Top
#264521 - 11/30/08 06:15 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: joelRT]
mike5 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 170
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Originally Posted By: joelRT
A paedophile is not an aelophile is not a molester is not a rapist.........................


Just read through this thread and was struck that it started out being about how abusers think, immediately equated abusers with pedophiles, and then switched to the can they/can they not be rehabilitated topic. I wonder where the quick labeling comes from and how it serves us...

Mike


Top
#264560 - 11/30/08 11:59 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: pufferfish]
jggab Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/29/08
Posts: 53
Loc: California

Not all pedophiles have a conscience. Some love themselves intensely. We call them sociopaths, or narcissists, or psychopaths.

That's true! My second perp has his own web site. . . named after himself.

Jon


Top
#264574 - 12/01/08 01:24 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: jggab]
OKIE MIKE Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 980
Loc: HULBERT OK
I BELIEVE THAT THEIR MIND IS NOT WIRED PROPERLY.
BUT CASTRATING THEM MIGHT HELP SOLVE THAT. I KNOW THAT THAT SOUNDS HARSH. BUT WHAT THEY DO TO OTHER PEOPLES LIVES IS MUCH MORE HARSH. HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE HAD THERE ENTIRE LIFE DESTROYED SO THAT SOME SICK BASTARD COULD HAVE A FEW MITUTES OF HIS OWN SICK PLEASURE. WITHOUT ANY REAGUARD FOR ANY ONE EALSE THAT GETS HURT

_________________________
MICHAEL

"I HAD NO SHOES THEN I SAW A MAN THAT HAD NO FEET"

"All I can do is be me, whoever that is"

Top
#264581 - 12/01/08 02:44 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: OKIE MIKE]
Barkabus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 809
Perhaps someday medical science will learn how to screen for the child sexual abuser defect in the unborn so that we can rid ourselves of this monumental societal menace once and for all.

Mike

_________________________
My Story

Top
#264582 - 12/01/08 03:09 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Barkabus]
Stretch73 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 336
Loc: Sea Isle City, NJ
Oh for God's sake! Are you suggesting pedophilia is a born trait?

That's a hoot! And Mike, this is me challenging the statement you just made. I'm not "bullying" or "manipulating" you.

Rich

_________________________
"I was so poor growing up, that if I wasn't born a boy, I wouldn't have had anything to play with." Rodney Dangerfield

Top
#264583 - 12/01/08 03:14 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Stretch73]
Barkabus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 809
Originally Posted By: Stretch73
Oh for God's sake! Are you suggesting pedophilia is a born trait?

It is the opinion of many. I am just taking this opinion to its logical remedy.

_________________________
My Story

Top
#264587 - 12/01/08 03:17 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Barkabus]
Stretch73 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 336
Loc: Sea Isle City, NJ
Okay.

_________________________
"I was so poor growing up, that if I wasn't born a boy, I wouldn't have had anything to play with." Rodney Dangerfield

Top
#264610 - 12/01/08 06:56 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Stretch73]
dgoods Offline
Guest

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
All i have to say about this, is to share what i learned via the Internet (therefore it may or not be true, but it rang true to me)
A convicted pedophile (or paedophile, depending on what side of the pond you're on), had been found (after re-offending) to be injecting himself with hormones, after voluntarily agreeing to either chemical or physical castration as a condition of his probation (sorry, can't remember which).
What struck me, was not only the perniciousness, but the psychologically deep-seated root of the behavior (independent of hormonal or sexual drive)...
This only reinforces, in my mind, that in a sense, it's little to do with sex, and far more to do with power and control.
Every one is unique, in the sense of of how they percieve the world, but i absolutely agree that "offenders/perpetrators/pedophiles/whatever you want to call them" have had a fairly basic wire crossed, that stretches farther back than puberty... perhaps it's simply a matter of how soon others are aware of the warp in perception, so to speak- maybe there's a "cut-off point", where the duration or severity of the perceptual distortion is beyond correction, and only the behavior can be managed...
Let's face it- as both a rational and empathic human being, and a survivor, can anyone expect my general response to the topic be anything else, but- "Learn as much as possible; yet keep children's safety the first priority, no matter what"?

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

Top
#264983 - 12/03/08 01:04 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: steveb121]
Morning Star Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: Home

There is no one in this world who is beyond redemption, and healing, even the hardest of criminals, all that is required here is someone willing to give them hope and help them find their way back to the light, and view them as a human being! The worst thing to do to a criminal is to dehumanize him, no child is born so, and if only we can help them retrace and recover their lost innocence they can be healed and they do aplenty all over the world, but that requires a heart much larger than your sense of judgment and righteousness, as those who judge will find it hard to see criminals as victims themselves, of their desires.

_________________________
~ It's over!...Let go of Thy Past, Remember Thy Self ~

Why Don't People Heal, by Caroline Myss; 30 days to clean up your vibrations - Abraham-Hicks

Top
#264990 - 12/03/08 03:49 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Morning Star]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
How'd it get to this? ...... This ain't going to be pretty!!!

Their "redemption" is the pinnacle of them doing what they do. They are not children, they hurt children. Those children grow up to be like us, like me.

How can I view them as human after what they chose to do? If I wasn't born already dehumanized then they certainly made every effort to make me not human. It's wrong for me to dehumanize them? How did I do something wrong? My perps designed what they would do down to the last calculation. Not a single one ever has come forward out of the 40+ who devoured me. How does a group of men lay aside time, travel expenses, create acts, terrorize, make their own "tools", torture, rape, kill, revive, and more, repeatedly over a number of years and be able to call all of that somekind of mistake?

I don't see any perp differently than I see my own. Why? Because nobody forces them to do what they do and they enjoy what they do. What they do is not derived from past innocense. Whether it is called a disease, a trait, an illness, hereditary, learned behavior, any other !!!EXCUSE!!! they are not victims. THEY made their own choices, THEY don't accidently do what they do. They are evil and nomatter how regretful they can ever become they do not have a power to undo their deeds. They don't even have the integrity to fess up to what they have done.

We need to give them hope? We need to try to help them?

Do they give us hope? Do they try to help us heal?

How is it that they are supposed to "heal" when they've made us bleed? What gives them priority over their victims? What would any of you do if you had mere thoughts that you would hurt a kid? Run and hope for the best? Or get every kind of help available and take every precaution down to mortality in order to keep a child safe if that danger couldn't be controlled.... it's a choice!

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

Top
#265009 - 12/03/08 08:02 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: usmc97]
Stretch73 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 336
Loc: Sea Isle City, NJ
I wouldn't argue with the "choice" or the "evil-doing, usmc, but I will argue this, they shouldn't get priority over the victims, but we must keep them in some type of priority in the hopes of preventing such future crimes against children.

We can all argue this until the end of days, until we're all blue in the face and sick enough to puke coat hangers, but it's like we'll come to the same conclusions and opinions after everyone of these little spouts.

I simply believe it to be more of my responsibility, as a victim (and you'll never hear me call myself a victim again), to try to prevent future crimes. Tell me what to do. I'm all ears. As I've explained in another recent post, the "dropping them all on a desolate deserted island is not going to solve the problem." I feel it's like the war on drugs; to beat it we need to get to the users before they start using, practicing prevention and treatment. Oh but wait, "treatment is useless, is doesn't work, right?" Maybe. I don't completely buy in to that. I just think society and medicine hasn't found an accurate treatment for these individuals, but giving time, money, patience, and support, maybe someday we'll understand more and be equiped to deal with it.

I don't think we should be asking the question, "Why do abusers abuse," because no one really has a clear sight on the answer. I think the more important question would be, "What can we do, collectively, to prevent potential abusers from abusing?"

Rich



Edited by Stretch73 (12/03/08 08:05 AM)
_________________________
"I was so poor growing up, that if I wasn't born a boy, I wouldn't have had anything to play with." Rodney Dangerfield

Top
#265013 - 12/03/08 09:16 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: usmc97]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Are you sure that the abuser does not in the end victimize himself by his own behavior.
Is he not trapped in a world of lies, deceit, and self-deception as we were. Does he not live in constant fear of being found out for what happened or who he really is.
Would you seek help if you knew that you faced certain and constant rejection from society with no hope of reprieve. No hope of help or understanding for your sickness. No hope for ever having a normal life.
This is why I believe there is little hope for the majority of abuser ever getting the help they need.

I will never understand why Mr. Candell choose to prey on children like myself or why he got off on it.
Can I condon his behavior-Hell no.
Do I forgive him-yes.
Because forgiving him frees me from the grip that his abuse had over me.
Unforgiveness left me in the grip a self-imposed prison of isolation.
No different then his choice of acting out imposed on him.
Today the key to my freedom is in my hands not his.

Just something to chew on.

Mike

ps-I am not saying you have to forgive just that for me it is the key to freedom.




Edited by michael banks (12/03/08 09:42 AM)
_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

Top
#265014 - 12/03/08 09:20 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Stretch73]
steveb121 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Swindon, UK
.


Top
#265020 - 12/03/08 11:06 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: michael banks]
CorDav Offline


Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 35
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I heard a preacher one night on late night tv. I will try and restate it here. It is powerfull to me. A common expression for forgiveness is burying the hatchet. It was a custom between warring North American Native when the dispute was settled and the peace pipe was smoke they would bury the hatchet of war in the ground. In my own experience of forgiveness I had come to realize around this time that every unkind word, act, co-incident everything that have ever happened to me I remembered and I could bring into my conscious and re-feel it. anger hiding the fear, inadequacy and insecurity. I heard the term gunny sacking by this time which refers to storing injustices and carrying them for years and years. the wieght of the sack becomes tremendous but desipite this burden I carry it and because of the weight and great effort to continue to carry it, I have now invested enormous physical and emotional energy into retaining this gunny sack. Although the sack is full of shit. It is mine and familar. Cause of the investment in carrying it to let go of it would mean that all of my struggles in bringing it along with me for 36 years would have been in vain. Wasted. I am today willing to let of the sack of shit. cause it is shit. It is brown. It smells. It is warm. It is familar. to let go of it I do not know what the future will hold. If I keep the bag I know it. It is familar. It is safe. So there is a huge amount of anxiety with letting go of it because the future would be uncertain. From my experience of past self defeating behaviours I can look and see I am much better off a day, a week, a month, a year, adecade later. Back to the hatchet. As human when I forgive I tend to leave the handle of the hatchet just barely sticking out of the ground. so I will know where it is. I can retrieve it should I ever have the need to control or manipulate the human relationship I am struggling with at any particular moment. I retrieve the hatchet and use the hatchet of guilt to get these people to behave the way I want so I can feel safe and secure in this world. When everyone behaves the way I want I am pretty happy guy. This hatchet however has residual effects. The hatchet of guilt and shame is in my hand. It is mine. I need to learn to not pick it up. Cause it hurts me. I am tired of hurting me. I do not know how but the answer is in us. The solution is in all of us. We are the answer. We need to quit allowing society to shame us or feel guilty about what they have allowed to happen to us. We are the solution to there not being an effectual treatment for abusers. Some how?

_________________________
"you can be a character and still not have any" the fox Pulp Fiction
Rule 62: Quit taking yourself so serious.
Pinky "Gee Brain, what do you want to do tonight?" Brain: "The same thing we do every night, Pinky- try to take over the world."

Top
#265023 - 12/03/08 11:48 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: CorDav]
Stretch73 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 336
Loc: Sea Isle City, NJ
“We have petitioned - we have remonstrated - we have supplicated - we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne. In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free - if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending - if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon, until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained - we must fight! - I repeat it, sir, we must fight!! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts, is all that is left us!

They tell us, sir, that we are weak - unable to cope with so formidable and adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs, and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak, if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. Millions of people armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country of that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave… There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged. Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable - and let it come!! I repeat it, sir, let it come!!!

It is vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, peace, peace - but there is no peace. The war has actually begun. The next gale that sweeps from the North will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms. Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God, I know not what course others may take, but as for me -- Give me liberty or give me death!” -


I think we all could learn a little bit of justice from great men like Patrick Henry. Too bad he died over 200 years ago.

Rich


_________________________
"I was so poor growing up, that if I wasn't born a boy, I wouldn't have had anything to play with." Rodney Dangerfield

Top
#265025 - 12/03/08 12:04 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: michael banks]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6855
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: michael banks
Are you sure that the abuser does not in the end victimize himself by his own behavior.

Is he not trapped in a world of lies, deceit, and self-deception as we were. Does he not live in constant fear of being found out for what happened or who he really is.
Would you seek help if you knew that you faced certain and constant rejection from society with no hope of reprieve. No hope of help or understanding for your sickness. No hope for ever having a normal life.

. . .there is little hope

. . . forgiving him frees me

Unforgiveness left me in the grip a self-imposed prison of isolation.
Mike


Well said, Mike

Allen

pufferfish whistle


Top
#265027 - 12/03/08 12:23 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Stretch73]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Stretch73
I wouldn't argue with the "choice" or the "evil-doing...

I simply believe it to be more of my responsibility, as a victim (and you'll never hear me call myself a victim again), to try to prevent future crimes. Tell me what to do. I'm all ears....

I feel it's like the war on drugs; to beat it we need to get to the users before they start using, practicing prevention and treatment. Oh but wait, "treatment is useless, is doesn't work, right?" Maybe. I don't completely buy in to that. I just think society and medicine hasn't found an accurate treatment for these individuals, but giving time, money, patience, and support, maybe someday we'll understand more and be equiped to deal with it.

I don't think we should be asking the question, "Why do abusers abuse," because no one really has a clear sight on the answer. I think the more important question would be, "What can we do, collectively, to prevent potential abusers from abusing?"

Rich


I never said treatment doesn't work for addicts, what I have said is that with perps they are in the same boat of where they will never ever be completely free of their behavior. Drug users have a chance, treatment does work for a lot of them but they are always in recovery. Perps are not completely the same even though they have simularities. The thing I've tried to key you folks into when I've used addicts as an example is that they are never completely free of returning to their addiction. With drugs a person is destroying their own body. What I keep repeating is that I am not willing to jeopardize the welfare of a child for the sake of a perps journey to "healing"..... if they hurt a kid once then they have made their choice. They should be reprimanded for life by the very least of having them unmistakably marked in the site of the public in order to prevent them from hurting another kid. That's when you can put the responsibility back on everyone.

If addicts are never completely healed how can you say that perps can be completely healed? Nomatter how much education you give people they will do what they are going to do BY CHOICE.

Use all that as effort of prevention.... if they choose to hurt a child then they have chosen to become a perp. Then give a list of what they will face by being under that label. Give the alternate choice of if they are a danger that they will be required to seek help indefinately but the second they hurt a child they have chosen. Up until the point they exploit a child they are responsible human beings. You give them the resources, if they don't comply you give them the consequence. Simple as that. It takes a whole lot of effort to hurt a kid.

Addicts abuse drugs destroying themselves, Perps abuse children destroying the child.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

Top
#265031 - 12/03/08 12:41 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: usmc97]
Stretch73 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 336
Loc: Sea Isle City, NJ
I respectfully disagree, usmc. smile

_________________________
"I was so poor growing up, that if I wasn't born a boy, I wouldn't have had anything to play with." Rodney Dangerfield

Top
#265033 - 12/03/08 12:42 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: michael banks]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: michael banks
Are you sure that the abuser does not in the end victimize himself by his own behavior.
Is he not trapped in a world of lies, deceit, and self-deception as we were.

They have no simularities to me! They put themselves in that place by their own choices! They are no victim.... some of them already try to claim that in that what they do is not accepted in society. The world of lies, etc..... they created that world and they kidnapped us into it. I don't claim it as a place of my own, I am forced to fight my way out of it because I do not belong there.
Originally Posted By: michael banks

Does he not live in constant fear of being found out for what happened or who he really is.
Their responsibility should trump their selfish fears. They did it, not society. The child or children that they have harmed should be more important than the secrets they want to hold on to. They are self-preservationist that base their lives on cowardice.
Originally Posted By: michael banks

Would you seek help if you knew that you faced certain and constant rejection from society with no hope of reprieve. No hope of help or understanding for your sickness. No hope for ever having a normal life.
Yes!!! A kids life and wellbeing is more important than my own. I would not see a child for the rest of my days and if I couldn't hold to that standard I'd take death before ever harming a child.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

Top
#265035 - 12/03/08 12:47 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: usmc97]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
USMC,

I disagree with your statement that drug addicts hurt only themselves. As a recovered drug addict that was just one of many of the excuses that I used not to face the truth about myself and my behaviors.
The drugs addicts behavior effects everyone in his life.
To his wife and kids who suffer neglect,abandonment,
emotional,and physical abuse. Not to mention the financial loss that his family has to endure because the drug becomes more important then anything else.
To freinds and family who they steal money and property from to get that next fix.
Nobody who cares about an addict gets away free from damage.
Addicts can and do destroy those around them.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

Top
#265036 - 12/03/08 12:56 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: CorDav]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: CorDav
A common expression for forgiveness is burying the hatchet....

This hatchet however has residual effects. The hatchet of guilt and shame is in my hand. It is mine. I need to learn to not pick it up. Cause it hurts me. I am tired of hurting me. I do not know how but the answer is in us. The solution is in all of us. We are the answer. We need to quit allowing society to shame us or feel guilty about what they have allowed to happen to us. We are the solution to there not being an effectual treatment for abusers. Some how?


I haven't tried to touch the forgiveness aspect, not because I am not capable but because of the circumstance of what's done to me, the numbers, and a great many other things. It is not my fault that I don't know how to forgive them, so there is nothing in my hand that I can use to alter what torment they've put upon my head. I have no control, no choice of what they do.... if I did I could make the statement that they have been conquered and that I am free of their torture. If they could stop being cowards and stop hiding behind their perfect anonymity. If only just one of them would come forward it would change my approach toward all of them. That would be hope and that would be the foundation of forgiveness.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

Top
#265038 - 12/03/08 01:06 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: michael banks]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: michael banks
USMC,

I disagree with your statement that drug addicts hurt only themselves. As a recovered drug addict that was just one many of the excuses that I used not to face the truth about myself and my behaviors.
The drugs addicts behavior effects everyone in his life.
To his wife and kids who suffer neglect,abandonment,
emotional,and physical abuse. Not to mention the financial loss that his family has to endure because the drug becomes more important then anything else.
To freinds and family who they steal money and property from to get that next fix.
Nobody who cares about an addict gets away free from damage.
Addicts can and do destroy those around them.

Mike


In the end the addict is destroying their own body, mind, and life. It's a choice to start using by whatever means, even the residual effects are still the choice of the user. The things that people do to enable an addict has it's consequences. If they love someone they will try to walk along side them to help them through that period of life but they have to expect that they will get hurt. The addict needs to own all of their behavior. I don't want to talk about addicts so much... I was just trying to use an addict just as a reference point.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

Top
#265040 - 12/03/08 01:27 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: usmc97]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
USMC,

My point is that both the addict and the perps actions hurt children that become involved with them.
Why is there help and forgiveness for one and not the other.
Before the 1930's an alcolohic was consider a helpless and hopeless case in ever changing his way. That once a drunk always a drunk.
What changed? but that a group of these loss individuals came together and learned to help each other.
So today there is alot more support and understanding of their problem.
Could there not be parrallels in dealing with this other group of loss individuals.

Just a thought.

I don't believe that anyone is a loss cause until he gives up on himself.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

Top
#265046 - 12/03/08 01:51 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: michael banks]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
The number one difference is that perps seek out children to hurt, and they hurt them in a specific way. Addicts can hurt anyone who is in there vicinity.

I have no understanding for an alcoholic or an addict, remove them from the possibility of using and that solves the problem indefinately.

My moms husband is an alcoholic and my brother is an addict. Since being on my own I have not allowed them to be destructive to my life.

I'm too gung ho about all this stuff I guess. My whole thing is to do something effectively. Trying to develop treatment that is sensitive and pushing around who's supposed to be responsible does nothing especially when nobody wants to hurt their feelings. They do the deed, it's no accident.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

Top
#265050 - 12/03/08 02:20 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: usmc97]
Stretch73 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 336
Loc: Sea Isle City, NJ
I respectfully disagree, usmc.

_________________________
"I was so poor growing up, that if I wasn't born a boy, I wouldn't have had anything to play with." Rodney Dangerfield

Top
#265056 - 12/03/08 03:26 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Stretch73]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
How about drug addicts that get others to abuse drugs too??? How many of us that have abused drugs or alcohol have ever pushed someone else into using or abusing more than they wanted to or should have? I can think of lots of circumstances in my background where group drug-using behavior got out-of-hand and someone suffered as a result. How many times have you drinker-types had a friend get a drunk-driving charge or have an accident while intoxicated after a hard night of drinking with you? How many of you drug users have had a friend have some kind of drug-related trouble or maybe lost a job after you were partying with them? A whole number of small-time drug dealers sell drugs in order to overcome their social inadequacies. They buy the popularity that they can't achieve on their own through selling drugs. Should we treat many small-time drug dealers like victims or people with problems too?

I remember a night in my early 20s when we were driving around in my old van doing blotter. One guy didn't want to do any because he had to be at work at 6:00 AM. Three different people in the van slipped him a single hit of blotter in his beer during the course of the night. I stopped on the side of the road and we had a discussion to see how many hits of blotter had gone into this guy's beer after I saw my friend riding shotgun slip a hit into his beer. We were just drug-adled kids trying to get stoned despite our individual histories of abuse, and as a result, one of us got really stoned against his will and lost his job. I remember another night at a bar when we got really smashed and then one of my ex-wife's brothers got popped for DUI, or another night when several friends from the bar got in a bad accident after we all sat around drinking and egging each other on with rounds of kamikaze's.

One of my roommates in the Twin Cities was a really insecure guy who had never had any friends before he began selling coke in the D.C. area. He was always wondering if I still liked him even though he was 40 years old. Another guy that I knew that sold coke had a heart condition that prevented him from working outside his house, and also prevented him from socializing in a normal manner. But when he sold coke, he had lots of people coming over to see him. Even I sold stuff on a small-scale basis for a while when I was new in Cleveland and didn't know anyone. I got to know lots of users as a result, which wasn't all that good for me either. I never used drugs IV before I met a couple of brothers in Cleveland selling them weed.

So the notion that drug addicts only hurt themselves is wrong, as is the notion that all drug dealers are out to hurt other people. Addiction is a medically-treatable condition, as is social anxiety. And the jails are full of addicts and small-time dealers who could be much better served elsewhere.

Is child abuse a medically-treatable condition and could the needs of child abusers be better served in treatment rather than in jails?

In my professional opinion the answer to that question would be no, except perhaps in the cases of children and adolescents, perhaps even young adults, who have some history of being abused themselves. Beyond a certain age or level of maturity, there is little doubt that someone should know right from wrong. Is child sexual abuse an addictive behavior? Quite possibly. Does that possibility mitigate the effects for victims? Probably not. Should perpetrators be given treatment rather than have to face the harsh realities of group incarceration?

There are two sides to every story and each side has both merit and negative possibilities too. Only a small percentage of murderers kill again following a prison stay. Does the small possibility that someone will kill again outweigh the chance at redemption that the majority currently has?

For whatever reason I believe that the vast majority of the less-violent criminal population could be better served with treatment rather than through the current system, and that both addictive users and most small drug dealers deserve treatment rather than criminal sanction. Treatment and repaying a victim's costs might be a much better way to deal with crimes against a person than through any debt to society type of incarceration remedy, at least the first-time that an offender comes through the justice system.

Just my feelings, not meant to stir-up a hornet's nest.

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



Top
#265061 - 12/03/08 04:25 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Trucker51]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Mark,

If you do the crime you should have to do the time.
But maybe the roots of why the crime were committed need to be addressed as well as the conquences for such crime.

What came first the addict or the criminal?

I don't know about your situation but I had committed very few crimes until I allow my addictions to consume me. And most of the crime I committed were a direct result of my addictions.
Now that I am clean and sober I have become alot better person and citizen who is very unlikely to commit the crimes that I had prior to this change.

I do not know much about abusers and what demons drive them to do that which they do. But I know the demons that drove my addictions. And I have learn to make peace with those things that gave those demons all their power.

Can abusers be so different?

Just a question.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

Top
#265068 - 12/03/08 04:57 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: michael banks]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
You guys are trying to excuse their behavior and deminish their responsibility to NEVER hurt a child.

Why do they abuse children? Because they choose to do so. It is where they get gratification.

Addicts are a separate issue, I've had every opportunity to use and never did, free supply, peer pressure, open access, every reason to use and never did... explain that.

At some point there is a choice, it is no one elses but that individual. All I ever say is discipline those who can not discipline themselves for the sake of children. You can educate them and try to deter them anyway you want but it still boils down to their choice and their selfishness. You can give them the opportunity to do the right thing, this is a pass or fail subject. A perp that can eventually be deemed a "good person" does not ever relinquish them from what they have done to their victims.

Prove your point and convince just one of my perps to come forward, help me to not be hurt anymore. Draw a freaken' line and stick to it!!! What is so hard to understand about that?

They have access to help prior to ever hurting a kid. Prevention involves their participation one way or another, either voluntarily or by force. Their demons belong to them but nothing makes them do what they do, they still choose.



Edited by usmc97 (12/03/08 05:06 PM)
_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

Top
#265070 - 12/03/08 05:17 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: usmc97]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
USMC,

Just thinking out loud.
I am sorry if this upset you.
Semper Fi,my devildog brother.
USMC 79-83

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

Top
#265179 - 12/04/08 09:54 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: michael banks]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I'm always amazed when people have such "expert" opinions without A) a degree in psychology or B) life experience.

I don't really know what it's like to be a compulsive shopper. I don't know the psychology behind it or the life experiences of those individuals who compulsively shop. So, realistically speaking, I have zero context in this matter.

So, really, I don't know or have any facts about that condition. I have "facts" (my personal, non-expert opinions), but really I don't have any footing to make diagnoses or prognoses, I feel.

And I certainly don't have the training, the life experience or the right to call compulsive shoppers unchangeable.

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

Top
#265203 - 12/04/08 12:35 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: AndyJB2005]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
I do have 3 million miles of commercial driving experience all over the US and some experience in Ontario, Canada too, as well as a liberal education. I am also a licensed private pilot. In addition to my nearly 30 years of experience as a professional driver I also have 5 years of experience in drug abuse and CSA recovery, and over 25 years of experience as an addict in my past too. And both my mother and mother-in-law are compulsive shoppers but they have their differences too.

My mother-in-law is mid-80s and homebound disabled, who so loves the attention that she gets from talking to the shopping channel customer service people that she has memorized her credit-card number. Every week a dozen more packages show-up in the mail and have to be returned. Every couple of days she is angry because something that she ordered hasn't yet arrived. The problem of the homebound elderly and the home shopping channels is something that a lot of us don't know about.

My mother is different. She has the money to shop the best stores and 5000 sq. ft. to store it all in. Heck, she just had the 3-car garage on her house remodeled into living space so that there would be another 600 sq. ft of space to display her purchases inside. I would guess that my mother enjoys the power and prestige that she feels wielding her bevy of platinum cards through shopping's version of La-La land. Not only that, but my mother is a bit of a sugar addict and a religion addict too. Is it any wonder that all three of her kids have had their own struggles with addictive and/or compulsive behaviors too?

In neither case has any amount of reason been able to reign-in their addictive/compulsive shopping behavior. In the case of my mother-in-law, the problem has been dealt with by returning her purchases. Any attempt to disable her credit has been met with extreme hostility and her behavior is not unlike the behavior of other addicts in that sense. So far my mother's shopping has not had the same effect yet she is running-out of space, and the possibility of purchasing more living/storage space is becoming an issue. My mother is 77 years old and has at least a few years left until us kids will have the responsibility of going through and disposing of her lifetime of addictive accumulation.

Just need a few more years of experience under your belt Andy, and you too will be able to offer expert opinion on a number of matters. The treatment of addictive and compulsive behaviors and the effects of such behaviors will become one of your specialties if you hang around the recovery crowd long enough.

Smile, have fun, and have a good day!

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



Top
#265210 - 12/04/08 01:10 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Trucker51]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I was merely using compulsive shopping as an example, lol, and as an analogy to abusers -- but thanks, Mark. smile

I'm just trying to make the point that unless you're an abuser, or you're someone with extensive training to treat them, we can't flip out our laymen prognoses (the determination of whether they have the ability to change or not) -- not with any amount of credibility, anyway.

I don't feel I, as a victim, am unbiased enough to make such determinations. I have a lot of emotions going against my dad, which I use to judge him and other abusers.

And how much of my rhetorical "they will never change" drum beat is based out of those emotions rather than reasoning and logic? How much of that emotion is implanted in my decision that they can never change and be productive members of society?

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

Top
#265219 - 12/04/08 01:27 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: AndyJB2005]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I just wanted to add:

I feel being a victim doesn't give one experience to, and make one an expert on, abusers. Certainly it makes one a first-hand expert on victimization and the feelings behind that, however. smile

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

Top
#265223 - 12/04/08 01:53 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: AndyJB2005]
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Hi Andy

These types of dialogues have always reminded me of those talk radio programs where people call up
& weigh in on the topic du jour.

I think they may help some people feel the "courage of their convictions" on the one hand which might be helpful.
Perhaps gain some insight, blow off some steam & feel "empowered" in the process.

On the other, they can make it quite plain who ones "friends" & "foes" are too.
(if that is how one gauges their involvement with others)

C




Edited by ineffable (12/04/08 01:53 PM)
Edit Reason: layout
_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


Top
#265224 - 12/04/08 02:06 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: ineffable]
Ozmosis Offline


Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 4
I don't know if what I'm about to say has already been said (I only read the 1st and last page) but through my own experiences abusers do what they do for power. The feeling of power for themselves and power over their victim. This might not pertain to everyone, but I feel that at least someone who has been abused and becomes an abuser themself does it for the feeling of power.

What I mean is...instead of staying the victim, they themselves seek power and become the abuser. After being abused myself I had a lot of the same thoughts. Wanting to be dominant over someone else. To be in that position of power and control. Because when you're in that position, you don't feel like the victim anymore. When you're abusing someone, you don't feel vulnerable anymore. You feel invincible. Before seeking help I was tempted many times to be an abuser myself. The only thing holding me back was the sickening feeling of actually violating someone else. It was disgusting.

So anyways, I believe a lot of abusers do it for power. They flip- flop feelings of vulnerability to feelings of control and become something that makes them feel safe. Also, when they are the abuser, they get to have power and control over someone they "use to be"...the victim. I hope this makes sense.


Top
#265225 - 12/04/08 02:11 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: AndyJB2005]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
I feel being a victim doesn't give one experience to, and make one an expert on, abusers. Certainly it makes one a first-hand expert on victimization and the feelings behind that, however. smile

Isn't that the truth! What I have found especially interesting is the fact that the people who have been able to help me the most - my Ts at various times - have never been survivors. Nor, for that matter, have any of them been men!

Do survivors have some special insight into the psychology of abusers, why they do it, whether they can change, etc., just because we are survivors? My own case suggests that the answer is a decisive NO.

When I began working with Ken Singer as editor for his book, I was aghast at some of the new things I was reading. I had never thought of any of this in such a way. I had spent literally decades demonizing those who had hurt me without realizing that by doing so I was granting them enormous power over what I was capable of thinking and doing. I mean, the abuser of my childhood was dead and I knew it, yet I still feared him. What was that all about?

What I came to realize was that my abuse experiences as a boy and then later had left me with a lot of false ideas about abusers that I continued to carry around in my head. Recognizing those ideas, and then dealing with them, did as much to help me as all the therapy I had had over the previous 8 years.

The bottom line for me was realizing that so long as I insisted on viewing the abuser as a kind of totally "other" boogyman, Little Larry was going to fear him and the world that could produce and hide such a monster.

This isn't to argue for compassion, forgiveness, or whatever; that's not what this thread is about. But my experience has been that a healthy measure of self-examination makes all the difference in the world. That kind of introspection is what decisively breaks the control that abuse can hold over us even decades after the abuse itself has ended and the abuser himself is long gone.

Much love,
Larry


_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#265226 - 12/04/08 02:15 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: AndyJB2005]
steveb121 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Swindon, UK
.


Top
#265228 - 12/04/08 02:22 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: ineffable]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
It's not whether or not they can change eventually into "better people", it's that in the process they can create more victims and since they are "changing" it somehow becomes even more excusable. There is no way anyone can prove that they don't make the choice to do what they do, yet there is complete and total evidence that they make that choice. They need to own it. Nobody forces them in any of the steps they take to perpetrate. I don't believe it's right to have children in danger for the mere possibility that one of them might somehow be different. With them not being completely and totally safe, they are not safe.

Even if they were "healed" from their past how does that make them magically safe to be around a child? Nobody has total control of their thoughts but some how perps have access to that ability? They may be able to change some things about themselves but they will never be able to change the things that they have done to their victims. That is why I will always see them as a perp.

For them to be able to move on with a trail of destruction behind them does not really say they move on... it says that folks like us were never anything more than learning tools, mistakes, and instruments used for their development. I don't know how many get hurt like I do day in and day out. How much more unimportant does my life need to be?

For someone to have credentials does not make them an expert and for me to not have a degree does not mean that I do not have credentials. In my "recovery" I have had to study what their make up is, the history, developement, etc, all makes and models of them. I have had personal time with them, I have asked questions face to face. I have been in horrible experimental studies with them. There's more to me than a victim. I do not need to be a perp to know a perp. I'm a Victim and I don't understand most of you and it seems that most of you don't get me either.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

Top
#265229 - 12/04/08 02:26 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: roadrunner]
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Something else that I try to remember is that some of us are going to be approaching our healing/recovery from a position of advocacy & possibly even from a militant perspective.

There was a moderator here years ago who was very militant?
That is going to affect the dialogue in my opinion.
Rallying the troops.

So I am learning to take these threads with a grain of salt or as-sault.
Because in the slightly less than a year I have been here, they surface frequently.

C



Edited by ineffable (12/04/08 02:26 PM)
Edit Reason: line breaks
_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


Top
#265230 - 12/04/08 03:06 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: ineffable]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
I defy everything you guys seem to think a "survivor" is supposed to be. My life don't match anything, my experience don't match anything. My knowledge is doubted, my life is doubted. What happened to me isn't believed, what happens to me isn't believed. I don't know anything with all the daily hell I go through because I don't have a fuckin' piece of paper to say so and now I'm militant?

What am I supposed to do?

I'm nothing, what they did and do to me is okay, what they do to everyone is okay.... it's not their fault either, me the mistake, them the victim, me the destroyed but hope for them, and somehow I have a responsibility to accept "them" as just having some weakness and show tolarance in hopes that "they" can be safe for one child to ever be alone with "them"? Something that has never been proven, something that morally should never even be attempted to prove!

them, they, perp, pedo, monster, abuser, tormentor, master, sir, torturer, executioner, mr, keeper, etc.... some how my brother?

Bullshit I won't accept that!

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

Top
#265238 - 12/04/08 04:19 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: roadrunner]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
Originally Posted By: roadrunner
a healthy measure of self-examination makes all the difference in the world. That kind of introspection is what decisively breaks the control that abuse can hold over us even decades after the abuse itself has ended and the absuer himself is long gone.

well i can certainly vouch for that. however after 40 years of introspection, i think that i have far surpassed the 'healthy measure' point, and dealing with the issues being violated has raised, seems to have turned me into a fixated compulsive recoverer. not my idea of the good life. i wish i could feel better knowing that all this 'work' has somehow changed my relationship to my abusers and myself. at some point i just want a lobotomy to forget it ever happened.

but other than that......i can't complain i guess, have a lot of other good stuff helping me keep my sanity. now back to being in a good mood..... confused

ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


Top
#265240 - 12/04/08 04:23 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: steveb121]
recovery Offline
New Here

Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 39
Today, I am just thinking. of alot of things. Should I consider myself a survivor. My abuses were all short. maybe, a few minutes at most. And I should of been mature enough to realize. what is was. I knew all about abuse. But, I never thought it could happen to me. My mistake is wanting friends too easy. and giving people the benefit of the doubt.

I was 20 years old. Homeless in a bookstore. And some guy came and talked to me. And took interest. And he claimed to me a massage therapist. And convinced me. I needed a massage.

What is convinced me in doing is letting my boundaries. down so he could abuse me. And giving me something which I don't need.

Then, when i realized it. I stoped it from getting worse. but, saying no. But, I didn't want to admit at the time.

And I thought about telling someone. but, then thought. Well, I'm homeless No one cares about me. And he will just say, that
I wanted it. And agreed no crime commited.

But, he did manipulate me. When I wasn't feeling well, or thinking.

He did ask me my age. After the abuse was down.

Should I have told the people in the bookstore. Would it of made it worse. I was just hanging out at the bookstore to pass the time away. And I was 20 years old over aged.

But, in my book is was ABUSE. No matter the age. Or, if I should of know better. He came with the motive to manipulate me. And he probably wanted more than he got.

It just makes me sick. That it had to happen. It could have been prevented. But, it was not my fault.

I think, he was someone that is emotionally inmature. And can't have a relationship with Adults. So, he goes after kids and people that act or look like kids.

And I think he was cruising the mens bathroom. looking at kids before he approached me.

I should of known. Just when it seems no one cares about you. And someone pretended to treat you well, and care about you. Common Sense go out the do. For awhile, untill you have a chance to think about it. And by that time. It too late.

There BASTARDS. They need to leave people alone.

What should I have done after the abuse. the easiest was let it pass and move on. But, should I have told. What would of happened?

I don't think. I would of done anything differently. Except prevent it.

I WAS SO STUPID FOR LEAVING HOME AND LIVING ON THE STREETS.

ITS HARD TO FACE UP TOO.


Top
#265307 - 12/04/08 11:18 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: recovery]
frost Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 1377
Loc: Eh?
_________________________
Boom!

Top
#265311 - 12/04/08 11:51 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: AndyJB2005]
Stretch73 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 336
Loc: Sea Isle City, NJ
Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
I just wanted to add:

I feel being a victim doesn't give one experience to, and make one an expert on, abusers. Certainly it makes one a first-hand expert on victimization and the feelings behind that, however. smile



Andy,

Very nicely put. I like this statement very much. Can I use it sometime? I'll give you a royalty. wink

Rich

_________________________
"I was so poor growing up, that if I wasn't born a boy, I wouldn't have had anything to play with." Rodney Dangerfield

Top
#265319 - 12/05/08 12:31 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Stretch73]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
That sure is not a true statement for everyone, if it's supposed to be then nobody has even a clue about me.

No wonder it gets lonely here.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

Top
#265345 - 12/05/08 06:28 AM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: jacobtk]
Stretch73 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 336
Loc: Sea Isle City, NJ
This thread has certainly turned into quite a direction. Originally, the topic posted by Steveb121 just over a week ago, it has spurned into an epic of adventure, drama, thriller, the evil depths of the dark horrors, to the lucrative world of the bold documentary. We’ve lacked comedy throughout, which may be a good thing. Unfortunately, we’ve also lacked the compassion that accompanies every feel-good sort of holiday flick. You know those movies that make you come to grips with your own achievements and lack of, and for one short time, you place yourself in the shoes of the actor and you feel for him or her, and a reckless tear vacates the eye, and no matter how hard you try to wipe it away before anyone notices, it’s too late. Your loved ones and fellow movie goers have seen your discontentment or joy for being able to identify and connect with the character involved.

Not unlike many directors, we’re all passionate about getting this movie right and making certain its’ facts are preserved and the truth prevails. Unfortunately, I think we miss important parts of the story and the plot thins, because the facts are drowning the entertainment value. We’re losing sight of who the characters are and what they stand for, so much so, we don’t even remember who they are toward the middle and end of this movie.

So… as any top Hollywood director would do, we stop production and gather the fleet together and try to realize what direction we’re taking this thing. Everyone’s point is valid and important. Everyone has an opinion of where we went wrong and how we can make it right, again, and again, and again. We need to insert a touch of our own stories into the pot to allow the plot to thicken, and everyone needs to get their taste, whether you disagree with this, or I disagree with that. It’s not your right or my right to tell the director whom he can and cannot choose to play characters in this film. He chose already, and here we are. I’m just as angry as anyone to not have the leading role, and I certainly wish I could be in, at least, the supporting cast, but I must settle for being a lonely and lowly extra. (I’m that guy way in the back, towering over everyone else, and NO, I’m not standing on top of anything.)

So let’s get this production moving again! Let us all understand and support the forthcomings and shortcomings of our fellows actors; this is a documentary of our lives and I want that Oscar, and I want those Two Thumbs Up.

Let us stop arguing about who is right and who is not, and move toward how we can overcome our immediate dilemma so we can look forward to the end of this, now, mini-series, before it grows into sitcom that would rival the airing years of Cheers, and ER, and Law & Order combined, multiplied by 1000.

If you want dibs on the credit list and where your name is placed, know that I am happy to be last.

Does anyone have a title?

Director: Mr. Perp
Producers: Mr. Perp, Mr. Perp’s wife who had knowledge, and Mr. Perp’s friends with knowledge.
Costumes: None were needed.
Music: Sad
Book Adaptation: Many
Cast: You fill in the blanks.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
.
.
.
.
12,000,000,000,000. Stetch73


_________________________
"I was so poor growing up, that if I wasn't born a boy, I wouldn't have had anything to play with." Rodney Dangerfield

Top
#265424 - 12/05/08 02:32 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: Stretch73]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
This "movie" is no fantasy and is far from fact based fiction. I live it everyday and I envy those who do not have a world like mine. The few who can come up with theoretical conclusions and not even entertain the desparation of someone like me creates such a void. My thought process is always that some kid right now could be getting hurt exactly like I was at their age. It is repeatedly happening to me now and I still can't handle it. Isn't one thing worse enough? I'm speaking of what my perps do and I don't see much difference in what was done to any of you.

The question was why do perps do what they do. There are plenty of reasons that can be attatched but the end result is that they either do it on their own accord or can't stop themselves. They all need both help and supervision indefinately. Still in any explaination it's their choice, their evil, and their irresponsibility.

Do perps actively play a role in helping me? Where does this thing of prevention come from in that if we just educate them, show some compassion for their "struggle", and teach them enough that they will become safe? Please tell me how you get to that with something other than hope. There is no possible way to even prove it without putting a kid in harms way. How do we end up having to try to convince them that it could be any more intolarable than it blatantly is on its own? How can any adult man or woman get off with them saying "well I just didn't understand that it was that wrong"? The worst of my perps do and did everything to make me nothing but their object to torture for there gratification. Separate from them, my first perp got me to love him and my last perp demonized me to get what he wanted when all I did was run to him for help. Where do I fit if I am expendable? When will how I suffer and how others suffer really matter? I'm not collateral damage! Please don't make that my life! Please!!!!!

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

Top
#453772 - 11/15/13 12:31 PM Re: Why do abusers abuse? [Re: steveb121]
jas4159 Offline


Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 278
I think there are to many answers to this question. They dod it becuase they can. they do it becuase they are getting even or back at someone. they do it becuase they were conditioned to do it. they do it for a hundred other reasons.

rich

justanothersurvivror.wordpress.com.
_________________________
Thanks

rich

justanothersurvivror.wordpress.com

Top
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... 9 10 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, TJ jeff 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.