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#262687 - 11/19/08 11:45 AM Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as child"
Blurry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 24
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (AP) — Disgraced evangelical pastor Ted Haggard says he was sexually abused as a child and that the experience "started to rage in my mind and in my heart" when he was caught up in a sex scandal involving a male prostitute. Haggard made the remarks in two recent sermons in Morrison, Ill., ABC's "Good Morning America" reported Wednesday.

Haggard said one of his father's employees "had a sexual experience with me" when Haggard was 7, according to audio recordings of the sermons posted on the ABC News Web site.

Haggard said he later became "a conservative Republican, loving the word of God, an evangelical, born-again, spirit-filled, charismatic, all those things.

"But some of the things that were buried in the depths of the sea from when I was in the second grade started to rage in my mind and in my heart," he said.

In 2006, Haggard was fired as pastor of the 14,000-member New Life Church in Colorado Springs when a former male prostitute alleged they had a cash-for-sex relationship. The man also said he saw Haggard use methamphetamine. Haggard also stepped down as president of the National Association of Evangelicals.

He has said some of the allegations were exaggerated but he has never offered specifics.

Haggard, who is starting an insurance agency in Colorado Springs, did not immediately return a phone message left by The Associated Press.

Haggard previously had confessed to undisclosed "sexual immorality," and on the new audio he said: "I really did sin."

Haggard said his family suffered severely for his actions.

"My wife — all my sin and shame fell on her. People treated her as if she had fallen," he said. "And my children — they all went through carrying my shame. And I am so sorry that I did that to my family."

Haggard said he became suicidal but eventually emerged with a stronger Christian faith and marriage than he'd ever had.

Haggard said church leaders missed an opportunity to use his scandal to "communicate the gospel worldwide through secular media."

"We consistently blow it" when those opportunities arise, he said.

"A congressman in trouble, that's the time. A family member gets himself in horrible trouble, that's the time. A preacher gets himself in awful trouble, that's the time," he said, his voice rising to a near-shout.


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#262748 - 11/19/08 08:46 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as child" [Re: Blurry]
pluckmemory Offline


Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 554
I am tired of adult predators blaming their actions on being sexually abused as a child. The majority of men who are abused as kids do not grow up to be predators. Haggard should have sought out therapy long ago.


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#262752 - 11/19/08 08:55 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as child" [Re: pluckmemory]
Marinan Offline
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Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 329
I didn't know he molested anyone. I thought he just had sex with a man.


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#262763 - 11/19/08 09:17 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as child" [Re: pluckmemory]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Originally Posted By: pluckmemory
I am tired of adult predators blaming their actions on being sexually abused as a child. The majority of men who are abused as kids do not grow up to be predators. Haggard should have sought out therapy long ago.

I suppose that could be said for every one of us. Why did any of us wait to seek therapy as long as we did? I'm not attempting to make excuses for his lack of self control, but recovery only begins for any one of us when we reach that point in our lives where it finally dawns on us that it's desperately needed.

As to the idea that he was a predator, currently we only have a "former" male prostitute who Haggard engaged in a consensual relationship with for a mutually agreed upon sum of money. To my way of thinking that would make him a "john" at worst. Add to that the adjectives of reckless, thoughtless, and hypocritical? Very much so, but predator? Not from any evidence we've seen so far, but who's to say for sure at this point? I'll agree that we probably don't know the whole story.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#262765 - 11/19/08 09:19 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: pluckmemory]
MarkK Offline
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Registered: 04/02/07
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He didn't molest anyone. So I don't understand this post either.

M


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#262780 - 11/19/08 09:51 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: MarkK]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
I am equally tired of adult predators alleging a history of child abuse in a ploy for leniency; but, I don't think Haggard qualifies as a predator. Though it still looks like a ploy for leniency.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#262795 - 11/19/08 10:35 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: melliferal]
MarkK Offline
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Registered: 04/02/07
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It may look like a ploy - but as someone who knows Pastor Haggard - I believe him.

M


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#262806 - 11/19/08 11:40 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: MarkK]
Sans Logos Offline
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ok, did you know him before or after he decided to become 'honest', ie, after he got caught.

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#262849 - 11/20/08 09:56 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: Sans Logos]
MarkK Offline
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Registered: 04/02/07
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He is an honest man. Lying to hide the pain and/or acting out from past abuse is not something he originated. Read the posts around here. If being an honest man means 100% honesty at all times - then none of us can pass that test.

I first met Pastor Haggard three years before the disclosure happened. I also know how much his family has suffered and is suffering.

And, being another person who didn't disclose until after I "got caught", I completely understand and empathise with his position. Especially since I, too, no longer have my position of leadership with the church I was at - the one where my once "best friend" is the pastor. To some extent, I'm a little jealous as the New Life church has not cast him out as an "unforgivable lost soul".

Ted was and is a good man, and, in my opinion at least, deserves the same acceptance and tolerance as the rest of us.

M


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#262851 - 11/20/08 10:01 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: MarkK]
pluckmemory Offline


Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 554
My mistake. I thought he had accosted boys as well. I was confusing him with Mark Foley.


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#262860 - 11/20/08 11:01 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: pluckmemory]
LandOfShadow Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
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An honest man still cannot be honest with those aspects of himself he does not know. Haggard didn't know what the sexual experience as a boy did to him.

Quote:
Haggard previously had confessed to undisclosed "sexual immorality," and on the new audio he said: "I really did sin."


What really bothers me is the religion that heaps more shame and blame on the victim here, can't learn from social science/psychology, and teaches if you only would pray more and trust God, you'll get over it. It just damns to victim to more torment.

That is the sin in my view. And I don't mean to lessen the importance of religion and spirituality by that.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#262863 - 11/20/08 11:33 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: LandOfShadow]
joelRT Offline
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Registered: 09/11/08
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It get the having been abused and the subsequent defensive behaviour bla bla bla..........

When this bastard shows himself to be man enough to apologize to the Gay community as well as every other homosexual man that he has harmed, demeaned and condemned publicly in his very vocal sermons - when he retracts his hate speak and at least attempts to repair the huge damage that he done to Christians everywhere, then fine, he can have my empathy.

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

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#262864 - 11/20/08 11:34 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as child" [Re: pluckmemory]
Blurry Offline
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Registered: 11/17/08
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#262865 - 11/20/08 11:35 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: LandOfShadow]
Blurry Offline
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#262879 - 11/20/08 12:40 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: MarkK]
Sans Logos Offline
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Registered: 05/31/03
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Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
Originally Posted By: MarkK
He is an honest man. Lying to hide the pain and/or acting out from past abuse is not something he originated. Read the posts around here. If being an honest man means 100% honesty at all times - then none of us can pass that test.


i don't see where anyone said anything about percentages. hmmmm. ok. and i have been 'reading the posts around here' and following the unfolding drama of this website for over 5 years now. but thanks for the suggestion. still, because of the gravity of his deceit, and its particular connection to the evangelical culture of manipulation by fear, he does not get an easy pass from me. prayer, yes. understanding, yes, compassion yes. instant forgiveness without retribution? hardly. this seems as if it might qualify as 'the sin against the holy spirit', that which would not be forgiven.

on another note, as i did not take much interest in this topic when it first came up 2 years ago, my inquisitiveness today lead me to google the man. so i got to see him in action, before during and after in various video interviews. still, no blanket forgiveness from me. he has a hell of a lot of repenting, groveling and fence mending to do before that will happen. frankly, i don't care if he does or does not. the man means nothing to me. i am sorry he has had to suffer what many of us have endured....that sux....but, he should maybe get down off his born-again-again high horse think about joining male survivor.

+++++++++++trigger++++++++
ok, for some it is possible that something could be triggered, maybe not...it certainly triggered my funnybone. my side hurts from watching this fascinating and entertaining vid. i came across it in my surfing today, poking fun haggard

ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#262886 - 11/20/08 01:06 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: Sans Logos]
joelRT Offline
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MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Thanks Ron, I needed a good laugh today.

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

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#262960 - 11/20/08 09:45 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: joelRT]
MarkK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
the hatred at this site makes me wonder why i come back at all.

and therein lies the answer.


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#263750 - 11/25/08 08:39 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: MarkK]
Tinman Offline


Registered: 05/30/08
Posts: 359
Loc: Lake Forest, CA
I see nowhere that Mr Haggard ever harmed a child. And to hang that label around his neck is an insult to victims. Why? Because sometimes the real monsters get away with it because they are not famous.

For those who have accused him of being a predator, I have one word for you: Slander.

I hate hypocrites like so many of these mega-pastors who turn out to be the very people they preach against.

Haggard is a pig who betrayed his wife and kids and then tries to justify it away. Hypocrite!

But do not accuse this man of a horrific crime that there hasn't even been a whisper about.

What I am grossly offended by is his attempt to justify his actions because of this alleged molestation. What is that? A get out of jail free card for any actions a victim takes? Most of us survivors never hurt others and blame our past. I am responsible for my actions! So is this dog.

_________________________
Tinman
"I finally have my heart!"

To the perps: Don't worry about me coming after you. But you damn well better watch out for God! "Vengeance is mine", saith the Lord

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#263773 - 11/26/08 01:21 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as child" [Re: pluckmemory]
LandOfShadow Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: pluckmemory
Haggard should have sought out therapy long ago.


Yeah, and me too!!!!

but I too had absolutely no idea how serious the effects of my CSA were. But how could I? Nobody was talking about it really at all back then (1980's ) and still we need to do more of that.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#267972 - 12/19/08 04:15 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: pluckmemory]
BroKen5 Offline


Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 17
Loc: TN
I am a pastor and there are times that it is tough to stay on top of my own feelings, emotions, and disires. At the same time deal with everyone else's problems. We live in a world to where everyone is allowed to have problems/issues except for a pastor.

Ken

_________________________
Living in the present, shaped by the past, making a difference in tomorrows.

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#267975 - 12/19/08 04:57 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: BroKen5]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Members of clergy, no matter of which religion, are people who make their living telling other people how they should live. If the concepts generally make sense, people are more than willing to accept whatever advice or instructions clergy give them as "the right thing to do". People are understandably (and in my opinion, righteously) indignant when one of these individuals literally fails to practice what he preaches.

Ted Haggard, like many others of his ilk, have spent all kinds of time and energy explaining how sinful and deserving of contempt homosexuality is. This isn't about this man getting slammed for private, personal problems; it's about a hypocrite being hoisted on his own petard - nothing more or less.



Edited by melliferal (12/19/08 04:58 PM)
_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#268008 - 12/19/08 09:17 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: Tinman]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6353
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: Tinman
Haggard is a pig who betrayed his wife and kids and then tries to justify it away. Hypocrite!...
What I am grossly offended by is his attempt to justify his actions because of this alleged molestation. What is that? A get out of jail free card for any actions a victim takes? Most of us survivors never hurt others and blame our past. I am responsible for my actions! So is this dog. (Bolding added by Rob Brown


QUESTION: Would Haggard be welcome here at MS?

_________________________
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#268014 - 12/19/08 10:11 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: Still]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
I don't have much respect for Mr.Haggard or follow his ministry.
But let us remember: "Let him with no sin cast the first stone".

Rob,if he truely is a survivor I would welcome him.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#268026 - 12/19/08 11:46 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: Still]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
QUESTION: Would Haggard be welcome here at MS?


i guess he would to the same extent that everyone else is or isn't welcome here.

now let's resist the temptation to ask for a show of hands!

wink

on a more serious note, i'm sure he is far too busy rebuilding his image and his family's trust to hang out in our web community.

if he were to come here, he would probably bring out both the best and the worst of the community.

it would most likely occasion an intense cleansing experience for the people of our community.

ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#268031 - 12/20/08 01:01 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: Sans Logos]
Still Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6353
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Is the reason for the marginal welcome just the fact that he points to his abuse as a reason or explanation for his acting out?

Maybe its the nature of his former source of income?

Maybe because he was a pastor?

Maybe its because pastors don't qualify for a CSA survivor's symptoms and resulting sex-abuse ramifications?

Its funny. I recall reading something here about people acting-out on occasion (maybe quite a bit more that "on occasion")

I seem to recall plenty of MS members citing drug use "as a result of dealing with their CSA."

If the marginal welcome is because he's a pastor, let's work on a list of occupations that qualify a survivor/victim to point to their abuse as an explanation for behavior.

If you re-read the original article, i truly don't think you'll see that he points to the CSA as and excuse, but rather an explanation.

I see this site...his own kind...his own people...hurling stones at his head. It makes me want to puke.

I had better check my past to see if I'll be acceptable here.

Maybe this website will create a list of acceptable sins for survivors.

_________________________
Jesus Loves The Hell Outta Me!

Still's Globs

New Video

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#268063 - 12/20/08 08:52 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: BroKen5]
LandOfShadow Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Quote:
I am a pastor and there are times that it is tough to stay on top of my own feelings, emotions, and disires. At the same time deal with everyone else's problems. We live in a world to where everyone is allowed to have problems/issues except for a pastor.


A while ago, I heard someone note that psychologists, therapists have all kinds of safeguards and support for helping troubled people. They have "supervision" (therapists for the therapists if they need it), and "good boundaries" meaning very limited, prescribed contact. No calls in the night or urgent meetings.

Pastors and clergy have nothing like this and it seems to be like a setup for all sorts of trouble: burnout, failures and even abuse.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#268085 - 12/20/08 12:52 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: LandOfShadow]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6353
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: LandOfShadow
Quote:
I am a pastor and there are times that it is tough to stay on top of my own feelings, emotions, and disires. At the same time deal with everyone else's problems. We live in a world to where everyone is allowed to have problems/issues except for a pastor.


A while ago, I heard someone note that psychologists, therapists have all kinds of safeguards and support for helping troubled people. They have "supervision" (therapists for the therapists if they need it), and "good boundaries" meaning very limited, prescribed contact. No calls in the night or urgent meetings.

Pastors and clergy have nothing like this and it seems to be like a setup for all sorts of trouble: burnout, failures and even abuse.



That's interesting. I'm guessing its likely true in the broad pastoral market. In NH, the pastors of ALL sorts of Christian Denominations do have accountability and support groups that meet with great regularity.

I do know that they will flat out say "you are wrong on this Phil, because of this ethos, or that cannon of justice, or cuz yer just being a jerk."

Honestly, if Haggert and others around the globe have no acctblty grps or such, I feel badly for them.

_________________________
Jesus Loves The Hell Outta Me!

Still's Globs

New Video

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#268091 - 12/20/08 02:42 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as child" [Re: WalkingSouth]
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I think that true survivors, do not become predators.
Abuse can never be an excuse for predatory behaviour.

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#268097 - 12/20/08 03:54 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: reality2k4]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
I see a man trapped in what he believes to be a sin. And being unable to fight it. He warns others against it - but still falls into it. If this makes him a hypocrite and unworthy of our sympathy or understanding ...

No more sermons on lies - unless you can find a pastor who has never told one

A lot fewer on adultery - "for if a man thinks it in his heart, he is already guilty"

What about AA meetings? How many people have stood up and warned others against the "evils" of drunkedness - then gone out on a binge. Dang hypocrites - should ban them from the meetings!

NA, SA ... I guess nobody should be telling anybody anything about what might be right or wrong until they get perfect first.

There could be a silver lining - no more people telling me acting out might be bad for me...

I just wish we would end this diatribe against a good man.


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#268103 - 12/20/08 04:27 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as child" [Re: reality2k4]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6353
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: reality2k4
I think that true survivors, do not become predators.
Abuse can never be an excuse for predatory behaviour.



There's no discussion of Haggard being a perp. None at all.

_________________________
Jesus Loves The Hell Outta Me!

Still's Globs

New Video

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#268115 - 12/20/08 06:11 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as child" [Re: Still]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Markk,

When people are busy throwing stones at others they don't have time look at themselves.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#268312 - 12/22/08 03:43 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: MarkK]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: MarkK

NA, SA ... I guess nobody should be telling anybody anything about what might be right or wrong until they get perfect first.


More like "nobody should be threatening anybody with eternal damnation and unending torture in the flames of Hell for not strictly obeying their idea of what is, without doubt (according to them), right or wrong until they get perfect first".

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#268319 - 12/22/08 04:33 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: melliferal]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
really? how many of Pastor Haggard's sermons have you heard?


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#268320 - 12/22/08 04:39 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: melliferal]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
melliferal,

Glad to see you on this side.

Christians are not perfect just forgiven.
We have the same imperfections as everybody else.
And the same struggles-pride..greed..lust..etc.
We all sin and will until the day we die.
God does not ask us to be perfect.
Just to believe and accept his gift of grace.
Some forget that fact at times.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#268321 - 12/22/08 05:06 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: michael banks]
ModTeam Offline
Moderator
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 690
Guys,

So far this has been a good discussion, and while it remains civil to this point, it seems in danger of tipping over the edge into territory that is less than considerate of others. Please remember to be civil to each other in this discussion. It does no one any good for the conversation to disintegrate to the point that the moderators need to step in.

Thanks for your consideration of the other guy.

John aka walkingsouth
For the Mod Team

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Private messages sent to this account are checked irregularly due to personnel and time constraints. Please send messages to one of the moderators for the forum that is concerned by user name, or if there is no named moderator, send a PM to any moderator.

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#268379 - 12/23/08 12:25 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: BroKen5]
healing_inside Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/28/05
Posts: 2005
Hi Blurry,

I feel sad that Mr. Haggard was not able to seek help as the deamons inside were so troubling. I hope he finds some help and peace.

I would welcome him here unconditionally. He was abused, so was I, he is a brother survivor.

-Jim

_________________________
I can't come to the phone right now, I am out living my life

*** WoR Retreat Alumni - Alta 2005 ***

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#268386 - 12/23/08 01:36 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: ModTeam]
Trucker51 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
I have never heard any of his sermons, but I have hauled a dozen truckloads loads of Bibles to the International Bible Society, which is right across the street from, and is affiliated with, the New Life Church. So I have driven right by there at least 24 times plus dozens of times more on I-25 and Rt. 86 too!!!

Kinda have to feel for the guy and especially his family just a little. I don't think that I have ever seen anyone fall so fast in my life. It's kind of like he went skydiving with a couple of car batteries tied to his feet! If he was here he most likely would have to use an assumed name, but perhaps some of us could give him some consideration or the benefit of the doubt if he was judged to be truthful and considerate with us all.

http://www.newlifechurch.org/

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#268415 - 12/23/08 08:40 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: Trucker51]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Mark,

I like that analogy - skydiving with car batteries tied to his feet. That's the way it felt to me too - I can't fathom what he was going through. But I can empathize with him over being torn by these deep deep emotional needs that you believe are directly commanded against by the God you are trying to serve. I no longer have my ministry either, though for reasons the other direction - I believe the Bible is being misused (again) by some people who refuse to see.

Anyhoo, I have heard Ted Haggard's sermons, sat through some of his general speaking and teachings. He is a good, loving, caring man. I would welcome him here or to my dinner table. Heaven only knows my life is far from perfect.

M


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#268518 - 12/24/08 12:40 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: MarkK]
healing_inside Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/28/05
Posts: 2005
Turcker Mark,

I like that analogy also.

My mind has been on this story all day today.

I remember how hard it was to begin to tell anybody, how do I trust with this info, what would they think of me, while they break confidence... Looking back to the first person I told, the feelings, scared, numbness I felt before I could utter those words I was CSA... was very hard.

I am not a celebrty, or on TV, or in the spotlight, everybody loking at every movment or sentense I make. He must have gone through hell. I am glad he had the strengh to survive from the mistakes he made. I didn't know anything about the guy until the story broke and saw the story on TV.

I pray that the family remains intact during this time

_________________________
I can't come to the phone right now, I am out living my life

*** WoR Retreat Alumni - Alta 2005 ***

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#268732 - 12/25/08 10:25 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: pluckmemory]
mr_bill1958 Offline


Registered: 12/25/08
Posts: 1
Loc: Texas, Tarrant County
As someone who just joined this site (this is my very first participation in a blog), I'm surprised and a little disappointed to see members of a website that is established to help its members deal with the unexplainable truths of abuse and how it affects our lives attack Reverend Haggard or question his integrity for expressing what I'm sure must be some of the very same feelings and frustrations that we (I know I have) have expressed in our journey. Are we holding him to a different standard? Are we "eating our own"?


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#268746 - 12/26/08 12:02 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: mr_bill1958]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
When he becomes man enough to publicly apologize for the tremendous public harm he's done to us (his own brothers) I will gladly welcome him into the fold. He does not get a free pass to forgiveness by piggybacking and exploiting my genuine childhood sexual abuse.

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

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#268943 - 12/27/08 12:15 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: MarkK]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: MarkK
really? how many of Pastor Haggard's sermons have you heard?


If you want to be technical, I really only need to have seen/heard/read one, if that one confirms my de>
_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#268967 - 12/27/08 04:14 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: melliferal]
joelRT Offline
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Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
.......but let us all remember, as reported by the media and in his own words, that after three weeks of conseling - he was cured! Released from his life-long demons.

I must be the supidest fuck this side of Heaven & hell for I've been actively working my recovery for over twenty years and I ain't even close to cured. Maybe Haggard has connections................

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

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#269021 - 12/27/08 11:33 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: melliferal]
MarkK Offline
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Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: melliferal
Originally Posted By: MarkK
really? how many of Pastor Haggard's sermons have you heard?


If you want to be technical, I really only need to have seen/heard/read one, if that one confirms my de>

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#269024 - 12/27/08 11:40 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: joelRT]
healing_inside Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/28/05
Posts: 2005
Joel,

We each have a healing path because of CSA, so please don't beat yourself because you have been working on it for 20 yrs.

From the posts I have read for you, you are a caring and supportive to others here. smile

Take good care, Jim

_________________________
I can't come to the phone right now, I am out living my life

*** WoR Retreat Alumni - Alta 2005 ***

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#269057 - 12/28/08 03:03 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: MarkK]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
ok, i've tried to stay out of this, because i've already made a statement. i've failed...oh well, put me on ignore, but, let the man speak for himself sans the medium of 'public opinion/debate':



creepy.... very creepy. major ick factor. and now he is going to go on to be a 'psychologist'? what a brilliant strategy! the man may have acted idiotically, but he's certainly not stupid! just think of the guaranteed free press he has for the rest of his life. that's one way i guess to make sure he lives up to the new image he plans to construct for all the world to remember him by. i mean, after all, if he can't redeem his true essence, he can at least make himself look 'good' for history.

i guess creating a new image 'costs less' in time and dollars than recovering a damaged one. [yes, joel, you and i may not be long for the 'st paul' variety of conversion; my own process has taken well over 20 years as well...more like 35....and i don't see and end in sight....i guess we're all different eek]

hey ted, i have an idea for a suggested field of study: gender studies

gotenyu! help us all!



_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#269229 - 12/29/08 06:27 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: Sans Logos]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6353
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Its his mask. Ever wear one? I did.

BTW: That clip was taken from an HBO piece that was intended to discredit he and all of US Christianity. The slant was fully employed to destroy image. Pastor H's fall was released just as this show was going to air/cable (not that it matters).

I could do a better "take-out" piece on any cause or segment because HBO hopped into the pool with even knowing its depth. I could use the same methods employed by HBO and utterly destroy a segment...but the cannons of "tolerance" keep me from doing so.

HBO exhibited a complete lack of tolerance for Christianity in their work. But "tolerance" in this country is a one-way street run by loud special causes only. Violators will be publicly pummeled (like Haggard here at MS and on HBO)

Heal from your CSA, but don't EVER let us catch you employing a survivor's mask or in need of help that contradicts your career or station in life.

So my question remains greatly unanswered: "Would Pastor Haggard be welcome at MS or not?"

Would a police officer hooked on drugs be welcome in a rehab hospital?

_________________________
Jesus Loves The Hell Outta Me!

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#270050 - 01/06/09 01:41 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: Still]
Stephen_5 Offline
BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/00
Posts: 667
Loc: Northern California Foothills
IMO he would be welcomed. He fucked up. He was a hypocrite. He was abused. I don't think that there is a 'test' to post here and recieve help.

There are a lot of us here on this site that have acted out in various ways; sex, drugs, alcohol, anger, rage, just being assholes to fellow human beings. Why? Because we were abused as kids and didn't learn how to deal with it when we were younger.

I'd give the guy the benefit of the doubt. If he wants help there is no better place to come than here. Maybe he'd learn to be more accepting of the whole spectrum of human sexuality.

Take good care of yourself,

Steve



Edited by Stephen_5 (01/06/09 01:42 AM)
_________________________
I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007)

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#270102 - 01/06/09 12:57 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: Stephen_5]
dancr6 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/07
Posts: 383
Loc: georgia
"Ted Haggard, like many others of his ilk, have spent all kinds of time and energy explaining how sinful and deserving of contempt homosexuality is. This isn't about this man getting slammed for private, personal problems; it's about a hypocrite being hoisted on his own petard - nothing more or less."

I have to agree. Was this man unaware of his own actions when he was telling(other)homosexuals that they would spend ETERNITY in hell for THEIR actions? I would accept him into a group but would expect an apology to the people who's lives were inflamed by a man in such a powerful church position. Many people thought his word was gospel and sunk into dark depressions because of his "teachings". He deserves healing as do the people who need an apology from him for their healing to begin.

_________________________
I'm a freeman now, his authority's dead
no pain monger lies in my comfortable bed!

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#270114 - 01/06/09 02:23 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: dancr6]
MarkK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: dancr6
He deserves healing as do the people who need an apology from him for their healing to begin.

... and he may need his own healing, at least in part, before he could be at a point where he could apologize.

I go back to my standard paraphrase: "Let you who is without fault cast the first stone."

M


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#270125 - 01/06/09 03:39 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: MarkK]
dancr6 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/07
Posts: 383
Loc: georgia
Mark, your comment made me think back to my own "fog", before I started working on my healing, and I have to agree with you. The pain that I unintentionally inflicted on people around me wasn't obvious initially and it took time before I realized the possible impact and was able to apologize. I'll go forward trying to remember that and add it to the storehouse of compassion I'm building. I have very little fear of self-correction.

_________________________
I'm a freeman now, his authority's dead
no pain monger lies in my comfortable bed!

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#270333 - 01/07/09 11:13 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: dancr6]
HurtinginMD Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 74
Loc: Cranston, RI
I have my 2 cents to throw into this discussion:

First of all...If you are unwilling to believe Ted Haggard's story of abuse then why should any of us be believed. Do we have witnesses who actually saw our perps abuse us... NO..they did it in secret behind closed doors or away from sight. If he is not to be believed than how can any of us expect others to believe us.

Secondly......show me someone..anyone on this site who has not carried around a painful secret while at the same time putting ona front like nothing is wrong.... I'm sure most of us have done this. We carried the abuse and its results while trying to put on an air of normalcy.

Third.... i find it ironic that the people who preach tolerance turn around and act intolerant.... Hypocrisy anyone????

I for one will give Ted Haggard the benefit of the doubt.... God knows i've made my mistakes.. i won't condemn him for his.

DB (aka HurtinginMD)

_________________________
I want always to be a boy and have fun... (Peter Pan)

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#272745 - 01/26/09 04:33 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: HurtinginMD]
Niels Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 196
Disgraced pastor Haggard faces more gay sex accusations

Eric Gorski - Associated Press Writer - 1/25/2009 6:20:00 AM

DENVER - Disgraced evangelical leader Ted Haggard's former church disclosed Friday that the homosexual scandal that caused his downfall extends to a young male church volunteer who reported having a sexual relationship with Haggard - a revelation that comes as Haggard tries to repair his public image.

Brady Boyd, who succeeded Haggard as senior pastor of the 10,000-member New Life Church in Colorado Springs, told The Associated Press that the man came forward to church officials in late 2006 shortly after a Denver male prostitute claimed to have had a three-year cash-for-sex relationship with Haggard.

Boyd said an "overwhelming pool of evidence" pointed to an "inappropriate, consensual sexual relationship" that "went on for a long period of time ... it wasn't a one-time act." Boyd said the man was in his early 20s at the time. He said he was certain the man was of legal age when it began.

Reached Friday night, Haggard declined to comment and said all interviews would have to be arranged through a publicist for HBO, which is airing a documentary about him this month.

Boyd said the church reached a legal settlement to pay the man for counseling and college tuition, with one condition being that none of the parties involved discuss the matter publicly.

Boyd said a Colorado Springs TV station reached him Thursday to say the young man was planning to provide a detailed report of his relationship with Haggard to the station. Boyd said the church preferred to keep the matter private, but it was the man's decision to go public.

The disclosure comes as Haggard, 52, is about to give a series of high-profile interviews to promote the cable documentary about his time in exile. He is scheduled to appear on CNN's Larry King Live on Thursday, the date of the documentary's premiere, and already has taped "The Oprah Winfrey Show."

In early 2007, New Life Church disclosed that an investigation uncovered new evidence that Haggard engaged in "sordid conversation" and "improper relationships" - but didn't go into detail. Earlier, a church board member had said there was no evidence that Haggard had sexual relations with anyone but Mike Jones, the former male prostitute.

Haggard confessed to undisclosed "sexual immorality" after Jones' allegations and resigned as president of the National Association of Evangelicals and from New Life Church, where he faced being fired.

Anticipating criticism of the settlement with the former church volunteer, Boyd said Friday that it was in the best interests of all involved. He would not name the volunteer or the settlement amount.

"It wasn't at all a settlement to make him be quiet or not tell his story," Boyd said. "Our desire was to help him. Here was a young man who wanted to get on with his life. We considered it more compassionate assistance - certainly not hush money. I know what's what everyone will want to say because that's the most salacious thing to say, but that's not at all what it was."

He said that "secondarily, it's not great for our church either" that the story be told. Boyd said Haggard knew about the settlement two years ago.

In a letter e-mailed Friday to New Life Church members, Boyd said of the settlement and agreement not to talk: "This decision was made not as an attempt to conceal wrongdoings, but to protect him from those who would seek to exploit him. His actions now suggest that he has changed his mind."

The letter said the church "received reports of a number of incidents of inappropriate behavior" after Haggard's fall. "In each case, we have tried our very best to do the right thing each time, including disciplinary action when appropriate."

Boyd said the "inappropriate behavior" referred to the man who was the volunteer involved with Haggard. After Haggard's fall, another church staff member resigned after admitting to what was described as "sexual misconduct."

Boyd said the church will not take action against the man if he tells his story in the press.

"We have legal standing to do that, but not the desire to," he said.

Boyd said he had spoken to the man once and came away with the impression that he was speaking out because of the documentary. "I think what caused this young man to be a bit aggravated was Ted being seen as a victim, when he himself had experienced a great deal of hurt," Boyd said. "I seriously doubt this man would have come forward if the documentary had not been made."

In an AP interview this month before an appearance in front of TV critics in California, Haggard described his sexuality as complex and something that can't be put into "stereotypical boxes."

_________________________
I live in my own little world - but that is OK! - They know me here.

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#272776 - 01/26/09 09:45 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: Niels]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Man,

This post has alot of leg.
I wonder why?

Is it because we like beating on a dead horse
so we don't have to see our simmilars in his life to ours
Or how we like to see the mighty fall.

It is oblivious to me that he is and probably never was quailified to led a church.
Per the decribtion for leadership in the bible.

But he has all the quailifications for membership here.
I hope to one day hear his story here on M/S and to chat with him.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#272817 - 01/27/09 01:38 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: michael banks]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
What's that Biblical thingy about it being easier to see the straw in the other guy's eye than the stick in my own?

Look, I've posted above about how I require a full public apology from the man for the tremendous harm his words have done to homosexuals and Christians alike. I find his actions reprehensible in the extreme. That being said, if indeed he is a genuine survivor then I, first, have to cut him some slack and give him the benefit of the doubt.

Should we maybe start a thread about how we ourselves as survivors have commited some terribly evil deeds all in the name of our inner & secret pains?

I'd go first, of course, only it's just that once I get started there won't be any room left on the page for anyone else to add anything....................

So come on guys, let's stop wailing on a fellow victim and instead start owning up to our own shit.....Who wants to go first?????????

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

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#273003 - 01/28/09 01:56 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: joelRT]
Niels Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 196
Well after hearing how he groomed and coerced this 22 year member of his congregation -

Wictim of Ted Haggards sexual abuse goes public on Channel 13

I can not imagine that MS would compromise the safety of the sexually victimized men on this site, by ever letting a sexual predator like Ted Haggard in here ??? Does this site harbor sexual predators ?

_________________________
I live in my own little world - but that is OK! - They know me here.

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#273005 - 01/28/09 02:39 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: Niels]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
i do so love this thread. we won't accept the fact that Ted's a victim - he's just saying it to cover up his actions. But we will believe he's a perpetrator if someone else says he was a victim of Ted's.

i do wonder sometimes how much of this imbalance is because of Ted's past profession...

M


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#273012 - 01/28/09 03:44 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: MarkK]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6806
Loc: USA
I don't know quite what to make of all of this.

Usually I resort to the dictionery under these circumstances.

Here is the dictionary definition of "Haggard":

haggard adj. 1.a. Appearing worn and exhausted; gaunt. b. Wild or distraught in appearance. 2. Wild and intractable. Used of a hawk in falconry. --hag·gard n. An adult hawk captured for training.

The way it appears to me is that we don't really have enough information to judge the man. We don't know whether he is a sociopath or as he insists an honest nice guy who got caught with his pants down.

If he is a sociopath, it is possible for sociopaths to be very persuasive about who they are and where they have been. They often lie to get out of a tight spot. They are convincing liars and can have very attractive personalities. According to one psychiatrist who has written a book on the subject (Dr. Paul Meier), there are lots of sociopaths who are in the "ministry".

Allen

pufferfish whistle


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#273021 - 01/28/09 05:07 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: pufferfish]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
well i feel much better now....he just now apologized to the gay community on oprah, but then he just took it back by saying that god wants us to live as heterosexuals.

thank god i have moved beyond this discussion, and further that my opinion of my own standing in god's eyes does not have to be funneled thru the approval of the right wing evangelical posse's perspective. judge, and you shall be judged accordingly.

live and let live, love and let love ... this whole event signals for me, and for many, the end of the era of tyranny of the religious right. consider the discussion now moot. consider it dismissed.

now, back to our regularly scheduled life,

ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#273022 - 01/28/09 05:31 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: Sans Logos]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
God is so good! (Hmmm, I wonder if Ted would allow a Queer like me to pronouce those words). Anyhooo, I had an emergency app at my doc's office (referred me to psychiatry, yikes!) so I missed miss Ted and his latest performance at bamboozeling the gulible public. Good thing to, my TV would surely have imploded.

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

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#273033 - 01/28/09 08:29 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: joelRT]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6806
Loc: USA
He's going to be on TV tonight. ABC's Nightline. In my region it comes on at 11:30 pm. I'm already getting tired of hearing about it though.

Allen

pufferfish whistle


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#273072 - 01/29/09 01:50 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: pufferfish]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6806
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pufferfish
He's going to be on TV tonight. ABC's Nightline.


I'm very unexcited about his so-called repentance. Yes, he has the right words and the right composure. But that's just it. He should be wallowing in tears of repentance if it were genuine.

I am tired of giving attention to this bad guy. I'm going to say no more about it.

Allen

pufferfish whistle


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#273086 - 01/29/09 07:36 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as child" [Re: Blurry]
mapleleafsn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 131
Loc: Eastern Canada
Yesterday My wife and I watched Ted tell his story, along with his wife and children in the audience of, yes Oprah. I found him to be quite open and willing to be accountable for his acting out behaviours. He has accepted his infidelity to his wife and taken his lumps from the rest of the congregation. Isn't it a shame how our society wishes to place some on pedastels and expect perfection? When will we realize that people who hold leadership positions in our communities are as much human as we are. Why is it that when a neighbour falls into a pit we will gladly extend a helping hand, but if a leader falls in to the very same pit he will be met with a crowd of angry people wishing to throw stones down and beat him senselessly?

He mentioned that he did not think of the sexual experience with an adult at age 7 as abuse because it did not involve violence. This I found to be very familiar. I too did not believe the relationship I had with my uncle while I was 6yrs old to be abusive because there was no violence. In fact my uncle made me feel that I was special, wanted and apprieciated. It was not even brought in to the picture until his T was digging in his brain why he was still wetting the bed in grade 6. Most of my denial of the abuse was for the exact reason. If it had of involved pain or discomfort perhaps both he(Ted) and I would have found treatment and counseling much sooner.

In my opinion I found that he has a very, very supportive wife and children. As we all know too well, it is the ones that are closest to us that get hit the hardest with our actions. The congregation unfairly treated his wife and children with the same contempt that they had for him. These were innocent by-standers. They too were totally unaware of his "double life" until the story broke and he had to confess to the accusations. Not only did they have to deal with the pain of there father's lies and denials, they had the whole community slamming them and treating them unjustly.

It opened up more topics for my wife and I to discuss as I too try to rebuild the relationship that I have cause so much trouble in. I do realize that we are still fighting many battles to get the general public aware that male's are survivors of sexual abuse too. Many will use his case as Grandstanding or whatever. To me I feel that it was another opportunity to get some recognition to the situations that we face on a daily basis.

Just my thoughts

Steve

One man's thoughts

_________________________
When the pain of remaining the same finally outweighs the pain of change---things will begin.... life is meant to be enjoyed not endured.

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#273131 - 01/29/09 12:44 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as child" [Re: mapleleafsn]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: mapleleafsn
Isn't it a shame how our society wishes to place some on pedastels and expect perfection? When will we realize that people who hold leadership positions in our communities are as much human as we are. Why is it that when a neighbour falls into a pit we will gladly extend a helping hand, but if a leader falls in to the very same pit he will be met with a crowd of angry people wishing to throw stones down and beat him senselessly?


I find this situation usually occurs most often when the leaders involved have placed themselves on that pedestal, or have actively encouraged others to place them there. And it's not so much a matter of falling into the same pit as the "common man"; often the leader has created the pit. Or noticed, announced, and expounded the existence of the pit, declaring that "all who fall into this pit are somehow bad". A politician who passes anti-prostitution legislation and is later caught in a hooker sting will draw righteous indignation from the people. As will a member of the clergy who tells you that homosexual activity is a sin against God, while engaging in the same activity himself. Such a clergyman chose his position; he chooses which sermons he gives and he writes them himself. He chooses to present himself as a role model, the way people are supposed to act. Of course people are going to be upset when he fails to meet the same standards he insists others place on themselves. And in this particular case, after his disgrace, just when everyone starts to no longer care, he actively draws the spotlight back to himself again and again.

But this is neither here nor there; either way, the more I read, the more difficult it is for me to think of Haggard as a fellow with an odd compulsion who is merely the victim of circumstance. I've just read a CNN article about an interview with another "temporary associate" (using the word "victim" might be considered loaded by some) of Haggards - an individual who, it should be noted, would not be saying anything at all if Haggard were not doing his aforementioned spotlight-grabbing - who described his encounter with Haggard.

Quote:
Haas said he met Haggard in 2005 at New Life Church. He was 22 years old, far from home and struggling with his sexuality.

Haas said he was "kicked out" of a conservative Christian college and moved to Colorado Springs to attend a Colorado University branch. While there, he began attending Haggard's church, eventually becoming a volunteer in the pastor's office.

Shortly after he disclosed his struggle with his sexual identity, Haggard "lit up," Haas said. He said he expected Haggard to be "a friend who I could talk to about it." But he said Haggard -- whom he said was usually easygoing and joking, even about sex -- soon began asking him questions about sex and drugs.

"He could be the nice 50-year-old pastor who's godly, and the next minute he's this horny 16-year-old boy," he said. "I never knew what I was going to get, and part of me hoped the 16-year-old horny boy would go away and the Ted Haggard I knew -- that I started my relationship off with -- would come back."

Their alleged hotel-room encounter occurred in July 2006, in the mountain town of Cripple Creek, Colorado, during a church trip Haas said started off "comfortable at first." They went to a show, then went back to the room Haggard had rented with a single bed, Haas said.

Haas said Haggard wanted to play "truth or dare," and the game "just got weirder and weirder." By the end of the night, he said, the pastor had masturbated next to him in the bed and then expressed remorse for his actions.

"He just started weeping in bed and told me the Holy Spirit was really angry at him, that he shouldn't be doing this with me -- that I was supposed to be a pastor, and he wants to make that happen still."

When Haas awoke the next morning, he said Haggard was praying, speaking in tongues and asking him to pray with him. Haas said he did not report Haggard's conduct until after the pastor was gone, because many parishioners and church leaders "believed Ted was the right hand of God."


When I was younger, I learned a joke that I always thought was a little funny. It goes, "When I was 9 years old, I prayed every night for God to give me a new bicycle. Eventually I found out that God doesn't work that way...so, I just stole a bicycle and prayed for forgiveness." Of course, the joke somewhat misrepresents the Christian doctrine of grace. Most Christians really don't believe they can sin all they want so long as they repent at some point; you're really supposed to try not to sin at all. But according to this newest claimant, Haggard actually really WAS the "steal a bike and then pray for forgiveness" type.

Haggard's most recent statement, which seems to confirm the new claimant's story, seems to cast a little light on his attitude:

Quote:
"Prior to that time, I discussed it with my wife, my therapist and our children," Haggard said. "Although there was no physical contact, I have regretted my irresponsible behavior. Once again, I ask Grant for his forgiveness as well as the people of the church."


What's written between the lines? Well, anybody can put anything they want there, really. But if I were to be open about what I think, then based on what's happened so far I don't see an apology in there. Apparently what happened is OK with Haggard's wife and kids, and that's all that matters - now Haggard owes this Grant fellow nothing, and Grant owes Haggard forgiveness. After all, isn't that the correct, proper, Christian thing to do - forgive when it is asked? Isn't that would Jesus would do?

I don't think Haggard is a swindler or charlatan; I think he really is Christian, and really believes everything he says as a pastor. But I think that he's "gaming the system", as it were.

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#273204 - 01/29/09 09:59 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as child" [Re: melliferal]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Originally Posted By: melliferal
I don't think Haggard is a swindler or charlatan; I think he really is Christian, and really believes everything he says as a pastor. But I think that he's "gaming the system", as it were.


I can agree with that.

I also think every one of us has a tendency to "game", especially when we're new to recovery. I know I spent some time "gaming my T" till it suddenly dawned on me he knew I was and that I wasn't doing myself any good by it and was wasting both of our time. It's very difficult to understand, let alone admit that not only were we abused but in all likelihood we've spent the last umpteen years doing things that betrayed our family and ourselves in some way, that maybe we've even acted in ways that could cost us our family, career, or our freedom.

"Gaming the system"? Yup. We spin it, we minimize, we try to salvage some vestige of "the face we give the world", at least for a while, but I think most of us, especially the guys here, realize the futility and take the steps necessary to our recovery.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#273240 - 01/30/09 10:13 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: pufferfish]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: pufferfish
He should be wallowing in tears of repentance if it were genuine.
being a person who seldom (if ever) cries in remorse over myself - i find this statement almost triggering. i may weep over someone else - but not myself. self-image and all that... i also have a hard time with the notion that any of us, myself foremost, have the right to decide how someone else should display their grief.

now, "gaming" - yeah, i can buy that. The number of years i was at a conservative church, convinced i was bound to hell for my feelings. "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he." i didn't even have to be "partaking" - i just had to be thinking it. i can only imagine the agony Ted has suffered.

Originally Posted By: melliferal
After all, isn't that the correct, proper, Christian thing to do - forgive when it is asked? Isn't that would Jesus would do?
The way i read the Bible, we are to forgive whether or not the other person asks for it. Christ forgave the woman caught in adultery - but nowhere do we read that she repented of her actions or was even sorry she got caught. ... but then, i'm assuming this was a serious question and not something less ...




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#273797 - 02/03/09 09:49 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: forgiven [Re: Blurry]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
i had been wanting to share an update on my thoughts and feelings around this subject in light of the recent media appearances regarding ted's evolving saga.

i watched him on abc, on oprah, and on larry king live.

i want to say how i am grateful to have had the opportunity to witness this man's true conversion, from right wing religious conservative to a 3 diminsional human being.

and not that i needed verification from him, but watching him rise on the wings of his faith, was seen as evidence that the power which saved him from his own self-deceit is the same power that had been available to him all along. he was talking a lot about salvation, distorting the true message of unconditional love, because he had not yet met 'the savior'.

but now it is glorious to see a fallen human being in a supreme 'aha!' moment, as he comes to realize that the love of the creator is not contingent upon following the set of rules. that love is unconditional.

i am gratified that he apologized to the gay community, but i still think he has a of long way to go in his acceptance of the diversity of human sexual relationship [which imho is a personal and social justice issue], as he has stated that he believes heterosexuality to be god's plan for creation. well yes it is, but not to the exclusion of other modes of sexual expression.

gayle haggard is the new eve figure for christian women today. her behavior in forgiving and accepting the flaws of her husband has shown all of us the wonderful healing power of redemption.

ted was a victim of so many things, like the rest of of. but as he confirmed for us as we watched with bated breath the drama unfold: suppressing core emotions, eliminating the possibility of their resolution in love and light leads to personal distortion, compulsion and loss of perspective.

i wish you well ted and family. may you be fully restored to be the awesome creature god intended when he first got the idea to make you in the first place.

ron

_________________________
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  2. ReClaiming Now
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#332973 - 06/05/10 07:28 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as child" [Re: Blurry]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
the recent news

joy behar is pretty relentless in her grilling of ted. she did a great job of prodding him to explain where he stands on issues of homosexuality. i am disappointed though that she left off the end of this interview clip where he stated that his homosexual behavior was a result of acting out from sexual abuse.

i applaud him for reaching that realization, and i believe him. but i also believe that his choice to become religious in the first place was acting out as well; an attempt to mask his sexual abuse experience and its effects. he harbored guilt and shame, and his secret subliminally directed his life trajectory. fear and lack of resources for reconciling his dichotomy led him to a conflicted state and caused him to seek rectification by imposing moral strictures upon himself that he believed would save him from his struggle : they didn't. he built his entire life on this secret, and it all came crashing down on his head, and that of those he loves and who love him. ah, the legacy of abuse.......

happily, clinical scientific process had done a lot of work in the field of sexuality over the years, and it was his capitalizing on that work that brought him the closure he needed after so many years, not some outdated belief in a set of "do's and don't's" that held out false hope for 'salvation'. it's good to see ted rising again, and to see that psychology, not religion, was the primary reconciling and restorative factor. it was religion that made his life an unbearable hell. but now he seems to have found his heaven thru therapeutic process.

i'm glad he came to realize and has found peace with his 'truth', and i'm glad he is no longer pushing the message that homosexuals are evil. thumbs up and down for both joy and ted, but two thumbs up for gayle for her commitment to stick thru it with ted.

warm regards,

ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#332979 - 06/05/10 10:03 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as child" [Re: Blurry]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
I think he's Gay or Bisexual and is still suffereing from cognitive dissonance, maybe a little less now since he got caught but he's still sidestepping the issue of what his "sins" were.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#352200 - 01/28/11 01:12 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: pluckmemory]
Hailzes Offline


Registered: 01/21/11
Posts: 25
Loc: 161
Is freaked.
What do you mean "got caught"?
Hope I'm misunderstanding this comment.


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#352231 - 01/28/11 05:19 PM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: pluckmemory]
Czaesar72 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/10
Posts: 211
Loc: California, USA
I


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#352265 - 01/29/11 12:24 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: Czaesar72]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6806
Loc: USA
That is the sociopathic way out. Blame it on someone else.

Allen




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#352269 - 01/29/11 01:28 AM Re: Disgraced pastor Haggard: "I was abused as chi [Re: BroKen5]
Czaesar72 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/10
Posts: 211
Loc: California, USA
R


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