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#262245 - 11/17/08 01:14 PM Nonchalant
Kathryn Offline
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Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303

Reading your post, it seems to me that you really shouldn't jump to conclussions about what which orientation may describe you best -- straight, bi or gay.

Or, for that matter, hetero-romantic and homo-sexual.

For a rather light treatment of the issue, there's a blog page called "I"m gay, you're not" devoted to OCD and OCD as it relates to obsessing about one's orientation, or the idea one might be gay. It's written by a gay guy. You should be able to just google the title and find it.

Then you might check out Joe Kort's web page, a gay therapist who talks about straight men who have sex with men, bi men, gay men. He's also a gay therapist.

Might being hetero-romantic and homo-sexual just be a way of denying one is really gay? Might be. Then again, it might be a way of denying one is really straight as well. And it might be a way of insuring that intimacy and sex remain apart because it's too scary to bring them together.

It might mean a lot of things. It might mean not much at all.

Obsessing over gay porn might be your way of facing your greatest fears -- ie, that you might be gay.

Obsessing over whether you're gay might be less scary than being lost in an intimate relationship with a woman....

Only you can figure out what it means for you.

And sometimes a good therapist can help in doing so.

Personally, I vote that your emotional longings are for women as more indicative of your orientation. Then again, I'm a woman and value my emotional responses over my more purely sexual ones.

Take care,
Katie


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#262248 - 11/17/08 01:38 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
Thanks a lot for the reply

I have regularly frequented Joe Kort's blog and have also talked a lot with him via email. He was reluctant to give an opinion on me as he knew so little about me, but from the details i gave him he said i sounded like "a hetero emotional guy with homo sexual desires" and that my early acting out/abuse may well have homosexually imprinted me and made me associate sex with the male body

However, this was only short relief as my obsession to try and 'prove' my sexuality just came back even stronger

I have never cared about sex, and i am only interested in women with strong morals who don't sleep around. I actually hate the idea of women having sex, period. This has always confused me. I look upon women as chaste and perfect, and it's almost like i feel they are tainted once they become sexually active. I think i may need a therapist to help figure out that one

Therefore i'm a bit like a woman in the sense that emotions and romance mean far more to me than intercourse. In a romantic sense, i have crushed on numerous women (at least 7 intense ones) and never on men: therefore i have always identified as straight. But pictures of naked men produce arousal (not a full erection or even a semi, but i feel quite aroused) for me whereas picture of naked women do not. I just have no idea what to do

Can early homosexual experiences cause men to be a permanent source of arousal? Or does the fact i feel aroused looking at naked men mean i was born homosexual? I just don't know which one to believe, if either



Edited by nonchalant (11/17/08 01:43 PM)

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#262283 - 11/17/08 05:09 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: nonchalant]
Kathryn Offline
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Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


I have no desire to get into the nature/nurture debate -- yet again.

All I can say is that whereas I don't recall ever feeling like I might be a lesbain in some stark way, I do recall some level of "evaluation" -- and that's the best word I can come up with right now, though it's fairly inadequate.

If sexual orientation is a product exclusively of biology, then I'd imagine gender identity would have to be as well, only because how we experience our gender plays a large role in how we relate sexually, it's part of our sexual identity.

And I clearly remember having to really THINK about gender issues, what it meant to be female, a female among females, a female among males, etc....

And I could always understand what lesbians saw in eachother.

I can get aroused by either men or women, though the quality of the arousal is different -- because the arousal has different emotional and cognitive meanings.

I'd imagine a lot of women get aroused by, say, Victoria Secrets, which is probably why it's published in the first place.

And men get aroused by men, which is why straight porn producers hire men with really big penises. Most women really don't care about penis size, so this mandatory requirement for straight male porn stars isn't to please women.

Let's call these sort of arousal homoerotic. The marketing industry wouldn't be nearly as successful without it, no matter how much difficulty people have in talking about it.

What it seems to me is that you have a Madonna/Whore complex -- women are Madonnas, Men whores. Which probably means you feel you must be a Madonna with women, but sexual with men.

Of course I don't really know. But it seems to me this is pretty common among men who have experienced a lot of trauma, especially if that trauma included messages that sex is dirty or bad or degrading or hurtful.

With women, sex would destroy the relationship. Or it would destroy the woman. Or you. Or all three.

Women can't sustain the "attack" of sexual intercourse.

Men maybe can, so you can feel more comfortable having sex with men because they're hard and won't be destroyed.

Or something like this.... Anyway, this is how it seems to me, or something like it. Just from reading on here and elsewhere for a long time.

And then there's the issue of IF women were to ALSO have sexual agency, then she'd destroy you, so you destroy her first by saying she's "fallen" and no longer worthy....

Lot's of men feel this way, abused or not. And it seems abused men simply feel this in a more intense way.

Personally, I think sexual orientation, while it might have some biologically predisposing factors, is at least ALSO about all these push/pull factors, finding the most likely place in which to feel safe enough to claim our sexual pleasures.

And fear/safety questions are probably as revealing as what turns us on in more immediate ways. Because we have to feel safe enough to get turned on in the first place.

Staying in a sexually ambivalent position in regard to our sexual orientation is a pretty safe place to be because we don't have to put much at risk.

Just as staying in a somewhat ambivalent position in regard to my gender identity was safe for me. In my experience being a female was a loosing proposition, and being a male was too.

When you're ready, you'll probably more or less find you can have the best of both worlds in a more or less satisfactory way with whichever sex you end up feeling most comfortable with, both sexually and emotionally.

For now you're probably defining both women and men in starkly different ways: "Women are....", "Men are.....". And while there are differences, the commonalities we share seem to me to be far greater than our differences.

And it's probably these definitions that you're responding to -- including how you deal with your own "feminine" and "masculine" aspects.

Like you write: You're more identified with "femininity" in regard to not caring about sex. Why don't you care about it? What would happen to you if you did care about it? Would you feel bad, dirty, shallow, whatever? Would you have a fall from grace? No longer be the Madonna?

And what about men? Do they represent the sexual virility you wished you could allow yourself? In our culture sex doesn't damage a man, only makes him manlier.

And yes, I'd assume that being abused by a man would imprint homosexual images. How could it not?

Anyway, just some rambling thoughts.

Take care,
Katie


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#262286 - 11/17/08 05:48 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
I have very very low self esteem and have had girls cheat on me before, which i believe is why i'm now completely fixated on chaste, virginal/quasi-virginal girls. I distrust women who sleep around or who have had many sexual partners. I also feel they could never be happy with me as i am not a great lover and i do not have the heterosexual desire of most men

i know that if i lived a homosexual lifestyle, my whole morals would collapse before me. I would sleep around, i would want men for sex rather than relationships, and i would become the type of person i hate

My whole turmoil revolves around my emotional orientation. I understand that i am more sexually aroused by men (although i choose to only masturbate over female erotica) and i accept this but live heterosexually because i have only ever felt romantically about women. However, i constantly (i.e. every minute of every day) obsess about whether or not i could feel emotionally and romantically for man. And in all honesty, i know if i conditioned myself to do so, i probably could. If i said "ok, i'm going to stay away from women and start frequenting with homosexual men" i know i could easily condition myself to feel romantically about them. I talked to a gay guy on MSN and i got on with him very well. This pretty much confirmed to me that i could easily relate to homosexuals, if i gave it a try

The thing is, i have no desire to live a homosexual lifestyle. My attraction to women is too intense for me to feel like i belonged in the gay community. In terms of socialising, i would much rather go out 'on the pull' for women than men. In fact, i don't think i could ever bring myself to kiss a man (although i guess that's a normal response to something you've never done before) It's like i have this whole hetero side which i love, but there's a homo side which i am ignoring and i have to continually justify this to myself and reassure myself that i am living the way i wish to live

I've given myself every label under the sun: hetero emotional and bisexual, hetero emotional and homosexual, bi-curious, straight with a gay porn fetish, heteroflexible, plain old bisexual, but none of them ever seen to fit

Sometimes i think that i have just overthought everything and realised just how nonsensical the whole sexuality thing is. I feel as though everyone could quite easily be bisexual, if they were emotionally open. I just wish i could stop thinking



Edited by nonchalant (11/17/08 06:03 PM)

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#262294 - 11/17/08 06:30 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: nonchalant]
Kathryn Offline
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Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


I imagine a lot of people -- maybe most -- maybe all -- maybe a significant minority -- could be bisexual if they were emotionally open as well. But most don't have a reason to be emotionally open in that way.

I like idealizing heterosexuality. It makes me happy.

If I were raped tomorrow by a guy, then maybe I'd consider idealizing bisexuality or homosexuality. Who knows? But even considering the difficulties of heterosexual relationships, I'm pretty happy being heterosexual. So it's not about not being open-minded. It's about being relatively content.

Have you always been emotionally attracted to women and sexually attracted to men?

What would your ideal relationship look like -- setting aside for a moment which sex that might be with?

Would it be highly sexual?

Non-sexual?

Highly intimate? With lots of holding and cuddling?

What turns you on about men? Their arms, legs, chest, penis? The whole package?

Have you ever been turned on by a woman? Or has it always been more of an emotional thing? Would you like a woman to just hold you without sex?

Would you like a man to hold you without sex?

Is the issue really one of not deciding between men and women?

Or is it more a matter of being afraid of relationships in general?

Did you feel loved as a child by either your mother or father?

When you think about sex with men, which position do you adopt? Is their oral sex? Anal penetration? Are you the top or bottom or both?

Take care,
Katie


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#262295 - 11/17/08 06:45 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
Originally Posted By: Kathryn


I imagine a lot of people -- maybe most -- maybe all -- maybe a significant minority -- could be bisexual if they were emotionally open as well. But most don't have a reason to be emotionally open in that way.

I like idealizing heterosexuality. It makes me happy.

If I were raped tomorrow by a guy, then maybe I'd consider idealizing bisexuality or homosexuality. Who knows? But even considering the difficulties of heterosexual relationships, I'm pretty happy being heterosexual. So it's not about not being open-minded. It's about being relatively content.

Have you always been emotionally attracted to women and sexually attracted to men?

What would your ideal relationship look like -- setting aside for a moment which sex that might be with?

Would it be highly sexual?

Non-sexual?

Highly intimate? With lots of holding and cuddling?

What turns you on about men? Their arms, legs, chest, penis? The whole package?

Have you ever been turned on by a woman? Or has it always been more of an emotional thing? Would you like a woman to just hold you without sex?

Would you like a man to hold you without sex?

Is the issue really one of not deciding between men and women?

Or is it more a matter of being afraid of relationships in general?

Did you feel loved as a child by either your mother or father?

When you think about sex with men, which position do you adopt? Is their oral sex? Anal penetration? Are you the top or bottom or both?

Take care,
Katie


In terms of fantasies and masturbation, i led a strict double life. About 85% of the time i jacked off over erotic images of women (fixating on their legs) and the other 15% of the time i would get off to gay man on man pornography (these were always scenes from Queer as Folk, not regular porn, and they were always the same 4 or 5 scenes, always involving Brian and Justin, if you know the show...) I have never masturbated over a picture of a man. In terms of sex itself, i have slept with 6 women. I can only remember being fulfilled with 1 of these though. In fact, i adored sex with this girl and couldn't get enough of it. This was mainly because she was the dominant one. I hate being on top during sex, and get minimal pleasure from this

From all that you could maybe say i was sexually bisexual, but once i started obsessing about my sexuality i started to doubt my hetero side. I knew that erotic pictures of women only aroused me when i was masturbating (i.e. i wouldn't get aroused if i wasn't touching myself) but i figured i just had a low arousability. When the sexuality obsession began, i started to look at pictures of naked men to test my reactions, and they did arouse me a great deal more (not enough to give me an erection, but more of a 'heart pounding' than female erotica). Since then, i never want to have sex with my girlfriend. It's like i've resigned myself to being more sexually aroused by guys and i can't bring myself to even attempt it with women anymore

Will post more in a minute....


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#262300 - 11/17/08 06:57 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: nonchalant]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
I know you probably didn't mean for me to answer all these questions one by one, but i'll do it anyway. Only way i can make sure i cover everything


Have you always been emotionally attracted to women and sexually attracted to men?

At the time i was abused, i was experiencing my first crush on a girl. I was 11 years old and i felt like i was in love with her, in my own naive little way. Heart skipped a beat every time i saw her etc. I have had about 7 or so similar crushes in the years since. I have never had a single romantic thought about another man


What would your ideal relationship look like -- setting aside for a moment which sex that might be with? Would it be highly sexual? Non-sexual? Highly intimate? With lots of holding and cuddling?

It would be my current relationship, only without the sexuality crisis. She is a chaste girl who doesn't care much about sex. I adore the intimacy we share. I love kissing/cuddling/holding a woman, and i do desire her sexually quite frequently (although i can only manage oral sex now, i can't bring myself to have intercourse) We go to the movies, go walking together, watch DVDs together every night. I feel like i could spend my whole life with her. But yet i'm terrified that one day i will realise i'd rather be with a man

What turns you on about men? Their arms, legs, chest, penis? The whole package?

A hairless, tanned, toned torso. Any hint of body hair and i am turned off completely

Have you ever been turned on by a woman? Or has it always been more of an emotional thing? Would you like a woman to just hold you without sex?

Yeah i have been turn on by woman numerous times. I can get an erection just from kissing a woman, although this doesn't happen every time. I get an erection from fingering a woman, but i am completely flaccid if i am performing cunnilingus on her (apologies for the graphics) I was constantly aroused around my first girlfriend (by far the most attractive girl i've ever dated) but i feel my sexual arousal for women has greatly decreased in recent times. I do not feel remotely aroused by the idea of having sex with a woman, but in the heat of the moment i often want to do it

Would you like a man to hold you without sex?
I haven't had a close male friend since i was around 13 years old. I would love to be 'one of the lads' and have a group of close male friends, or even just one, but i'm terrified it would become sexual

Is the issue really one of not deciding between men and women? Or is it more a matter of being afraid of relationships in general?

The main issue is fear of losing control of my sexuality, and fear of not knowing what path is the right one. I was once very scared of relationships as i don't trust people, but i worked through that in my current relationship

Did you feel loved as a child by either your mother or father?

I was far, far too close to my mother, and i felt completely inadequate with regards my father. I wanted to be a man like him but just couldn't be. He died when i was 19. Maybe irrelevant, just pointing that out

When you think about sex with men, which position do you adopt? Is their oral sex? Anal penetration? Are you the top or bottom or both?

I don't actually fantasise about sex with men. All i ever did was masturbate over the gay scenes from Queer as Folk. However, since i began obsessing about my sexuality, i continually try to think of things i would do and things i wouldn't. To be honest, i'm more aroused by the idea of masturbating whilst looking at a naked guy, than actually doing anything with the guy himself. However, the idea of being a 'top' or giving a guy a blow job are both quite arousing. When i think about it, the guy has to be just a figment of my imagination though. If it's a guy i know or a male celeb, it loses its arousability



Edited by nonchalant (11/17/08 07:08 PM)

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#262312 - 11/17/08 07:29 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: nonchalant]
Kathryn Offline
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Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


It's not at all uncommon for women who lead very satisfying straight lives to rely on lesbian fantasies. I happen to consider such women straight. Why? Because they're happy living a straight life, even though, in order to have a orgasm they use lesbian fantasies.

Why men seem to deal with their homoerotic experiences and fantasies with so much more obsession and stress is an interesting thing, and no one has "The" answer.

But I suspect it's largely because maintaining a masculine identity is more work. Men can loose their masculine status with the wrong twist of the wrist. Women have to really be "dykes" to be at risk.

And when you have an experience which is fragmenting -- like sexual abuse -- then all these weak spots get thrown into the stew of this fragmentation.

And it sounds to me like your homosexual interests are more defensive in nature, for whatever that's worth, and it might not be worth much at all.

Whether some people are born gay or not, there's certainly a difference between someone who was attracted to boys since childhood and someone who develops an attraction later on in life. Maybe the early homosexual was born gay, but the later development sort of hints at a psychodynamic reason. Which, by the way, doesn't mean it's less real or more "pathological". It does mean, however, that there's probably not a gay gene running around in your veins.

Still, it seems to me that the real issue is the issue of being "chaste", issues with women, sexuality, anihilation anxiety, etc.... Fears of using your penis to penetrate another, and probably fears of penetrating another emotionally as well, etc....

But all these anxieties might be so great that you'll find it easier to be with men. Which, even though I doubt you were born gay, would be just fine if you can be relatively content and feel relatively whole rather than fearing that you'll fragment into itsy bitsy pieces and disappear altogether.

But it sounds like you might need help in stabilizing a more fundamental sense of self -- then the sexuality issues will resolve themselves.

Sometimes it's easier to focus on sexual orientation issues rather than the even more anxiety-provoking issues of basic survival. And it doesn't have to happen over night.

And a really good therapist can be so helpful.

Take care,
Katie


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#262314 - 11/17/08 07:33 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
Kathryn Offline
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Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


P.S.

Some months ago there was a guy called Gabbehay, or Gabbahey. You might want to look up his posts. He was really articulate, and there's some things you say that remind me of him, including avoiding men because of fear that it will lead to chaos.

K.


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#262315 - 11/17/08 07:38 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
Kathryn Offline
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Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303
And BTW, I'm glad you answered all the questions. I get to learn new things and you get the chance to write and see your thoughts and feelings take written form.

It's a win-win situation.

Write all you want....

And don't worry about getting graphic. Sex is graphic.

K.


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#262318 - 11/17/08 07:49 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
The reason why women are allowed lesbian fantasies but men cannot openly fantasise about other men is almost certainly because of the double standards of society. A woman kisses another woman and she's just having fun. A man kisses another man and he's a homosexual in denial. And so forth. I am realistic enough to know that a fairly high percentage of men have probably had homosexual fantasies or gotten off to gay porn. The sheer fact that most men like to see cumshots when they're watching porn, must have some homoerotic element to it for a start

What led to immense questioning was the fact that gay porn was the only porn that really did anything for me. Straight porn was like violation. I don't want to watch a man shag the life out of a woman while she lies there screaming. Lesbian porn was aesthetically pleasing and i have often masturbated to it, but it lacks the 'heart pounding' sensation i get from man on man. Could this simply be because gay male sex is more rough and 'violent' than watching 2 women carress and touch each other? I've often thought this was a plausible explanation for my arousal, but then again i guess most heterosexual men would not be aroused by it at all

I just feel a great sense of responsibility to pick a lifestyle and stick to it. And in all honesty, i can't see me choosing a homosexual one. I love women, i bond with them so easily, i see my future being with a wife and children, i see me growing old with a woman by my side. My most affirming moments as a male where when i used to go clubbing when i was at university and i 'pulled' women. I adore kissing women. One girl actually said to me "you really like kissing don't you??!!" I think i see it as more of a 'binding together' force than sex, i dunno

I don't want a boyfriend. But my mind tells me i could enjoy it if i just gave it a chance. But a homosexual lifestyle couldn't make me as happy as a straight one. Or could it? Questions. Questions. Questions. This has been my life for 9 months

P.S. If you have gotten off to gay pornography quite frequently for 8 years, is it plausible that this would cause arousal whilst looking at still images of naked men? Pavlov effect type thing? Sometimes i think that the homosexual abuse made me turn to gay porn, which in turn made me sexually attracted to men, rather than being sexually attracted to them to begin with



Edited by nonchalant (11/17/08 07:56 PM)

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#262324 - 11/17/08 08:16 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: nonchalant]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


Two men having sex might just feel more safe to you. It can be rough without hurting someone emotionally.

Women like gay porn because it's interesting to see a man take the "passive" position, and it's prohibitory for many women to imagine that THEY might take the active position -- so, they identify with an active man who passifies another man.

And it sounds to me something like this is going on.

If you're with a man, then it's more ok to be sexual, it's more acceptable. And it's more acceptable to be passive with a man than with a woman.

And, since there's no emotional involvement, it's safe to be penetrated (emotionally) -- ie, the physical act replaces the emotional act.

And with women, without sexual penetration, the emotional penetration is reduced. It's made less threatening through the de-sexualization.

And maybe, too, you hope to take into yourself masculinity. In some cultures, a right of passage is for younger men to felate older men so as to become men themselves --- like a masculinity injection.

Why the interest in hairless, "adolescent" looking chests? Don't know.

But your sexual interests, legs and chests, seem to carefully avoid the more typically sexually arousing areas of the body.

And a hairless chest, like legs, are sometimes difficult to determine if they're male or female. Kind of neither if looked at in certain ways.

Anyway, you sound straight enough to me.

But what do I know?

I recently read what a woman said about her straight life and lesbian fantasies:

She was severely physically abused by her mother. Her father disappeared when she was 2 or 3 and she never saw him again.

She describes herself as an attractive woman who's still a tom boy, and actually acts as a security guard for rock concerts.

She's very interested in men, enjoys sex with them, prefers very masculine presenting me, but has exclusively lesbian fantasies.

What she makes of it is that 1) she needs a masculine man who she feels she won't overwhelm, who's strong, etc.... and 2) that she has lesbian fantasies (of a very tender type) because she longs for a loving mother, one that strokes her tenderly rather than physically abuses her. And it's these tender, lesbian fantasies that allows her the freedom to experience more lustful, more forceful, sexual experiences with her very masculine men -- and enjoy it.

Life's weird sometimes.

While I don't think the search for safety is the only lense through which to look at our sexual preferences, it's an interesting one, and seems to play a pretty big role.

You do have a responsibility to choose a lifestyle. But it's not an emergency. And if it feels like it is, then that's probably because of other things, not sexual orientation. It's probably more to do with shoring up a sense of being out of sorts more generally.

And I know having a girlfriend already complicates the issue: you have a responsibility to not lead her on if you're thinking you might rather have a boyfriend...

Have you spoken with her about this?

Are the two of you serious?

How old are you?



K.


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#262325 - 11/17/08 08:22 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


And what fissytickens (sp?) said too in the sexual identity forum.

The simple homosexual visual imprinting shouldn't be dismissed.

But men who were sexually abused by women seem to have similar stuff going on.

Take care, try to relax,
K.


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#262328 - 11/17/08 08:31 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
I am 23. She is 20. And yeah i bottled it up for around 6 weeks but then confessed everything to her. She is convinced that i am not gay, and justifies this by saying that she has done everything i have done (she's had sex with one of her female friends, and she regularly gets off to lesbian porn) However, as we've established, it's different for women....

We have been dating for 10 months and it is quite serious. We talk about spending our lives together, and before my obsession began i had never felt happier. Sadly the obsession kicked in within 2 months of our relationship starting. I've often thought that the reason i began obsessing about my sexuality was because for the first time in my life i had met a woman who i trusted 100%. All my previous relationships had saw me constantly worry and obsess about the girl hurting me/cheating on me etc. Now i'd met someone who i just knew would never do that to me and i moved onto this new obsession, my sexuality

So many times i have tried to accept being gay but it just never seems real. My attraction to women seems to grow any time i try to tell myself that i must be gay. Even though i know i am aroused by male erotica, i refuse to masturbate to it, and happily continue to get off to female images. But throughout the whole 9 months i was convinced i could never ever bond emotionally with another man, or feel romantically about one. Then one night i decided to test out this theory. I was talking to a gay guy on my MSN (he'd added me via a social networking site because he thought from my picture that i was gay, which obviously terrified me when i heard this....) I had never spoken to him before apart from to tell him i wasn't gay, but one night i decided to give it a try:

Anyway, i'd never had a conversation like this with another guy in my life. We seemed to have so much in common (history of obsessions, having to quit our jobs because of anxiety issues, alienation from peers....), and he was so much more interesting than any guy i'd ever been friendly with. However, i didn't have the exciting rush i would get from talking to a new woman. When talking to a girl for the first time, i am at my most witty/articulate/funny and almost plan out everything i'm going to say in the hope of impressing her. I also drop numerous hints about getting her number etc. This wasn't there with the gay guy, but i did feel a sense of fear about how well i got on with him. Eventually though it all petered out when he told me that i'd been questioning my sexuality for too long to be straight. End of conversation. I am so paranoid that someone could convince me i'm gay just by clicking their fingers, and i wasn't going to listen while an out and proud homosexual convinced me my attraction to women was all just denial. However, the whole episode showed me that if i tried to bond with a man, i could. If i tried to develop romantic feelings for one, i think i could. Although it would have to be conditioned by staying away from women, i think

Why me? Why is my sexuality so fluid? Why do i have so many choices? Why could i not just be emotionally and sexually homosexual? Or better still, emotionally and sexually heterosexual?



Edited by nonchalant (11/17/08 08:39 PM)

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#262331 - 11/17/08 08:40 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: nonchalant]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


Bingo.

Find a woman who you really like. Then "turn" to obsessing about being gay.

I'm glad you have a girlfriend with whom you can talk. That's a really big thing.

It does seem to be different for women, and the why's of this might be helpful in thinking about because there isn't something in stone or the stars that dictate this be so. I suspect that men can learn to deal with things like this more like how women do, they just have to give themselves permission.

You're both young. Take things slow.

It's not an emergency. It really isn't.

Do you have a therapist?

I'm off to bed for now.

Take care,
Katie


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#262339 - 11/17/08 08:58 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
I once read a survey on the website Jacknworld and there were some crazy findings on it: for a start, something like 55% of the guys would rather masturbate over a picture of a naked man than a naked woman (even though only around 5% saw themselves as gay) And something like 70% of the guys who took the survey said they would have no problem masturbating their best friend if he asked them

Findings like these will always be hush hush though as men cannot openly admit things like this like women do

Thank you for your replies today anyhow. Have helped calm me down a touch. Will make sure to stick around



Edited by nonchalant (11/17/08 08:59 PM)

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#262344 - 11/17/08 09:20 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: nonchalant]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


Still up.... so....

I've read Jacknworld, and I'd assume that it's somewhat self-selecting and so you get these very high stats when it comes to more unusual masturbatory fantasies.

Still, I'm sure the numbers are much higher than we usually assume them to be.

And it's a young population, so homosexual experimentation is still an open thing.

I'm 45 years old and my straight male friends who have some interest in men sexually, usually an interest in a man's penis, feel like -- yeah, they could experiment with a man's penis, but then what?

And so it's -- So what?

Young people are more apt to act upon the moment and not react to the "And then what?" part of it. Then what? Then leave.

As we get older, sex gets more integrated with a life-plan. And sexual experimentation for the sake of sex alone is almost as exciting as riding a bike.

Well, for older people who want more out of life smile

Anyway, the point being: Young people experiment, sexuality always has some level of homoeroticism - however it gets represented, you're not alone for sure.

And we aren't what we fantasize. If we were, we'd be even a bigger mess than we are. For one thing, I'd be in jail for having shot my neighbor for playing his stereo too loud.

Take care,
Katie


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#262349 - 11/17/08 09:35 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
I've always had rather bizarre fantasies

Besides watching gay porn, i also had a regular habit of fantasising about friends of my girlfriend. My first girlfriend had 6 or 7 beautiful (female) friends and i would constantly masturbate whilst thinking about them. I guess that's not overly uncommon but i found it quite strange. Then, after i found out she cheated on me, i demanded to know every detail etc. I just had to know. But amazingly i found myself often fantasising about it. Imagining the other guy shagging her. Some people told me i needed therapy when i admitted to that...

That was the only occasion when my fantasies were sexual in nature. Any hetero masturbation was simply looking at a picture of a hot woman and jacking, or imagining a hot woman in my head and jacking. And as i said, the gay ones were simply watching scenes from Queer as Folk and jacking



Edited by nonchalant (11/17/08 09:37 PM)

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#262594 - 11/18/08 10:27 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
Gabbahey Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 43
Gabbahey here:

It's "Gabbahey."

I haven't looked at this board recently----hey there Kathryn!

Nonchalant: Basically, everything Kathryn said. She has great insights, insatiable curiosity, very smart.

The default male identity is about various kinds of performance. All goes back to courtship I think, which is how you get sexual access, which is how your genes are passed on.

So when people ask about "identity" they're also asking about "access." Not just, do I like to have sex with women, but can I get women to have sex with me? Can I compete with other men? Am I damaged goods? Do I have enough resources, a sturdy enough nest, a fat enough stomach, a fancy tail, the right education, to attract a mate? Etc.

After years of therapy, all I've really settled is that so much pressure was applied to the neural pathways associated with sex and relationships, that they burned out. Think Clockwork Orange-style aversion conditioning. I haven't dated for many years, except pretend dating my therapist, the one-stop relationship. I have fantasies, mostly hetero, but usually see no path forward to actual relationships, not friends or partners. I'm a good co-worker, from a distance. grin

If you look up my posts, I go on and on about these things. I may have deleted a few.

But a warning: being articulate doesn't mean being right. Sometimes I'm just having fun with words.

Kathryn is more rigorous as an analyst.

Unfortunately, I can't get into a big new discussion right now. I'm just taking a break from my enslavement to the IRS---work, that is.

I'll try to check in later.


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#262720 - 11/19/08 03:39 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Gabbahey]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


Hey Mike!!!

Good to see you type again.

The thing is you express what I think and feel -- but with using such fewer words smile

And so as not to offend those who believe they were born gay, maybe you were, but that doesn't mean everyone is.

But for a guy who is predominantly heterosexually oriented, then I think Mike makes a lot of sense.

K.


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#262731 - 11/19/08 05:13 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
Read your posts Gabbahey

Weird how you say you feel that you adapted into homosexuality, because people thought you were gay. I often feel exactly the same. Until i began stressing about my sexuality, i didn't see men as attractive. Now i find virtually every man i ever come across to be attractive. This isn't 'coming to terms' with something. I have changed. And i blame obsessing about who i am for that. I belive our brains are so powerful that if we believe strongly enough, we can convince ourselves of anything


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#262885 - 11/20/08 01:03 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: nonchalant]
fromtoday Offline


Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 74
Loc: UK
Hi Nonchalant,
Ive been reading this post through interest, my opinion would be, and please don't be offended by this, that you are obsessing way too much regarding your sexuality. From what you have written I would say straight with issues directly relating to your childhood abuse.

Anyway thats not why I'm replying, today I read an article in a magazine and it spoke about the following organisation which will apparently counsel you by email regarding sexuality confusion and I thought of you, I have no experience of them so can't recommend them but hey its worth a shot.

http://www.londonfriend.org.uk/

Good luck S

_________________________
Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide,
No escape from reality
Open your eyes, Look up to the skies and see.....
_________________________________________________
Queen, Bohemian Rhapsody

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#263002 - 11/21/08 09:52 AM Re: Nonchalant [Re: nonchalant]
Gabbahey Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 43
Quote:
I believe our brains are so powerful that if we believe strongly enough, we can convince ourselves of anything


Makes sense to me.

And I have no quarrel with other people's self-understanding and happiness, or other people's understanding of their identity. People know what they know and feel what they feel.

BTW, just noticed the Northern Ireland location. I lived in Dublin for a year, and England for several years (ages 15-20). Long before I went psycho.

I should have stayed in England. The source of my illness is probably living in fortress America, the great consumer empire.

I was happier in that washed-up fallen empire, the UK. In my doubtless faulty recollection, it was quiet, dingy, a little run down, and utterly charming.

So besides the story of my insides, there's the story of my environment, which, as for all of us, is rather complicated.


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