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#262318 - 11/17/08 07:49 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
The reason why women are allowed lesbian fantasies but men cannot openly fantasise about other men is almost certainly because of the double standards of society. A woman kisses another woman and she's just having fun. A man kisses another man and he's a homosexual in denial. And so forth. I am realistic enough to know that a fairly high percentage of men have probably had homosexual fantasies or gotten off to gay porn. The sheer fact that most men like to see cumshots when they're watching porn, must have some homoerotic element to it for a start

What led to immense questioning was the fact that gay porn was the only porn that really did anything for me. Straight porn was like violation. I don't want to watch a man shag the life out of a woman while she lies there screaming. Lesbian porn was aesthetically pleasing and i have often masturbated to it, but it lacks the 'heart pounding' sensation i get from man on man. Could this simply be because gay male sex is more rough and 'violent' than watching 2 women carress and touch each other? I've often thought this was a plausible explanation for my arousal, but then again i guess most heterosexual men would not be aroused by it at all

I just feel a great sense of responsibility to pick a lifestyle and stick to it. And in all honesty, i can't see me choosing a homosexual one. I love women, i bond with them so easily, i see my future being with a wife and children, i see me growing old with a woman by my side. My most affirming moments as a male where when i used to go clubbing when i was at university and i 'pulled' women. I adore kissing women. One girl actually said to me "you really like kissing don't you??!!" I think i see it as more of a 'binding together' force than sex, i dunno

I don't want a boyfriend. But my mind tells me i could enjoy it if i just gave it a chance. But a homosexual lifestyle couldn't make me as happy as a straight one. Or could it? Questions. Questions. Questions. This has been my life for 9 months

P.S. If you have gotten off to gay pornography quite frequently for 8 years, is it plausible that this would cause arousal whilst looking at still images of naked men? Pavlov effect type thing? Sometimes i think that the homosexual abuse made me turn to gay porn, which in turn made me sexually attracted to men, rather than being sexually attracted to them to begin with



Edited by nonchalant (11/17/08 07:56 PM)

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#262324 - 11/17/08 08:16 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: nonchalant]
Kathryn Offline
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Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


Two men having sex might just feel more safe to you. It can be rough without hurting someone emotionally.

Women like gay porn because it's interesting to see a man take the "passive" position, and it's prohibitory for many women to imagine that THEY might take the active position -- so, they identify with an active man who passifies another man.

And it sounds to me something like this is going on.

If you're with a man, then it's more ok to be sexual, it's more acceptable. And it's more acceptable to be passive with a man than with a woman.

And, since there's no emotional involvement, it's safe to be penetrated (emotionally) -- ie, the physical act replaces the emotional act.

And with women, without sexual penetration, the emotional penetration is reduced. It's made less threatening through the de-sexualization.

And maybe, too, you hope to take into yourself masculinity. In some cultures, a right of passage is for younger men to felate older men so as to become men themselves --- like a masculinity injection.

Why the interest in hairless, "adolescent" looking chests? Don't know.

But your sexual interests, legs and chests, seem to carefully avoid the more typically sexually arousing areas of the body.

And a hairless chest, like legs, are sometimes difficult to determine if they're male or female. Kind of neither if looked at in certain ways.

Anyway, you sound straight enough to me.

But what do I know?

I recently read what a woman said about her straight life and lesbian fantasies:

She was severely physically abused by her mother. Her father disappeared when she was 2 or 3 and she never saw him again.

She describes herself as an attractive woman who's still a tom boy, and actually acts as a security guard for rock concerts.

She's very interested in men, enjoys sex with them, prefers very masculine presenting me, but has exclusively lesbian fantasies.

What she makes of it is that 1) she needs a masculine man who she feels she won't overwhelm, who's strong, etc.... and 2) that she has lesbian fantasies (of a very tender type) because she longs for a loving mother, one that strokes her tenderly rather than physically abuses her. And it's these tender, lesbian fantasies that allows her the freedom to experience more lustful, more forceful, sexual experiences with her very masculine men -- and enjoy it.

Life's weird sometimes.

While I don't think the search for safety is the only lense through which to look at our sexual preferences, it's an interesting one, and seems to play a pretty big role.

You do have a responsibility to choose a lifestyle. But it's not an emergency. And if it feels like it is, then that's probably because of other things, not sexual orientation. It's probably more to do with shoring up a sense of being out of sorts more generally.

And I know having a girlfriend already complicates the issue: you have a responsibility to not lead her on if you're thinking you might rather have a boyfriend...

Have you spoken with her about this?

Are the two of you serious?

How old are you?



K.


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#262325 - 11/17/08 08:22 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
Kathryn Offline
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Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


And what fissytickens (sp?) said too in the sexual identity forum.

The simple homosexual visual imprinting shouldn't be dismissed.

But men who were sexually abused by women seem to have similar stuff going on.

Take care, try to relax,
K.


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#262328 - 11/17/08 08:31 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
I am 23. She is 20. And yeah i bottled it up for around 6 weeks but then confessed everything to her. She is convinced that i am not gay, and justifies this by saying that she has done everything i have done (she's had sex with one of her female friends, and she regularly gets off to lesbian porn) However, as we've established, it's different for women....

We have been dating for 10 months and it is quite serious. We talk about spending our lives together, and before my obsession began i had never felt happier. Sadly the obsession kicked in within 2 months of our relationship starting. I've often thought that the reason i began obsessing about my sexuality was because for the first time in my life i had met a woman who i trusted 100%. All my previous relationships had saw me constantly worry and obsess about the girl hurting me/cheating on me etc. Now i'd met someone who i just knew would never do that to me and i moved onto this new obsession, my sexuality

So many times i have tried to accept being gay but it just never seems real. My attraction to women seems to grow any time i try to tell myself that i must be gay. Even though i know i am aroused by male erotica, i refuse to masturbate to it, and happily continue to get off to female images. But throughout the whole 9 months i was convinced i could never ever bond emotionally with another man, or feel romantically about one. Then one night i decided to test out this theory. I was talking to a gay guy on my MSN (he'd added me via a social networking site because he thought from my picture that i was gay, which obviously terrified me when i heard this....) I had never spoken to him before apart from to tell him i wasn't gay, but one night i decided to give it a try:

Anyway, i'd never had a conversation like this with another guy in my life. We seemed to have so much in common (history of obsessions, having to quit our jobs because of anxiety issues, alienation from peers....), and he was so much more interesting than any guy i'd ever been friendly with. However, i didn't have the exciting rush i would get from talking to a new woman. When talking to a girl for the first time, i am at my most witty/articulate/funny and almost plan out everything i'm going to say in the hope of impressing her. I also drop numerous hints about getting her number etc. This wasn't there with the gay guy, but i did feel a sense of fear about how well i got on with him. Eventually though it all petered out when he told me that i'd been questioning my sexuality for too long to be straight. End of conversation. I am so paranoid that someone could convince me i'm gay just by clicking their fingers, and i wasn't going to listen while an out and proud homosexual convinced me my attraction to women was all just denial. However, the whole episode showed me that if i tried to bond with a man, i could. If i tried to develop romantic feelings for one, i think i could. Although it would have to be conditioned by staying away from women, i think

Why me? Why is my sexuality so fluid? Why do i have so many choices? Why could i not just be emotionally and sexually homosexual? Or better still, emotionally and sexually heterosexual?



Edited by nonchalant (11/17/08 08:39 PM)

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#262331 - 11/17/08 08:40 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: nonchalant]
Kathryn Offline
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Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


Bingo.

Find a woman who you really like. Then "turn" to obsessing about being gay.

I'm glad you have a girlfriend with whom you can talk. That's a really big thing.

It does seem to be different for women, and the why's of this might be helpful in thinking about because there isn't something in stone or the stars that dictate this be so. I suspect that men can learn to deal with things like this more like how women do, they just have to give themselves permission.

You're both young. Take things slow.

It's not an emergency. It really isn't.

Do you have a therapist?

I'm off to bed for now.

Take care,
Katie


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#262339 - 11/17/08 08:58 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
I once read a survey on the website Jacknworld and there were some crazy findings on it: for a start, something like 55% of the guys would rather masturbate over a picture of a naked man than a naked woman (even though only around 5% saw themselves as gay) And something like 70% of the guys who took the survey said they would have no problem masturbating their best friend if he asked them

Findings like these will always be hush hush though as men cannot openly admit things like this like women do

Thank you for your replies today anyhow. Have helped calm me down a touch. Will make sure to stick around



Edited by nonchalant (11/17/08 08:59 PM)

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#262344 - 11/17/08 09:20 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: nonchalant]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


Still up.... so....

I've read Jacknworld, and I'd assume that it's somewhat self-selecting and so you get these very high stats when it comes to more unusual masturbatory fantasies.

Still, I'm sure the numbers are much higher than we usually assume them to be.

And it's a young population, so homosexual experimentation is still an open thing.

I'm 45 years old and my straight male friends who have some interest in men sexually, usually an interest in a man's penis, feel like -- yeah, they could experiment with a man's penis, but then what?

And so it's -- So what?

Young people are more apt to act upon the moment and not react to the "And then what?" part of it. Then what? Then leave.

As we get older, sex gets more integrated with a life-plan. And sexual experimentation for the sake of sex alone is almost as exciting as riding a bike.

Well, for older people who want more out of life smile

Anyway, the point being: Young people experiment, sexuality always has some level of homoeroticism - however it gets represented, you're not alone for sure.

And we aren't what we fantasize. If we were, we'd be even a bigger mess than we are. For one thing, I'd be in jail for having shot my neighbor for playing his stereo too loud.

Take care,
Katie


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#262349 - 11/17/08 09:35 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
I've always had rather bizarre fantasies

Besides watching gay porn, i also had a regular habit of fantasising about friends of my girlfriend. My first girlfriend had 6 or 7 beautiful (female) friends and i would constantly masturbate whilst thinking about them. I guess that's not overly uncommon but i found it quite strange. Then, after i found out she cheated on me, i demanded to know every detail etc. I just had to know. But amazingly i found myself often fantasising about it. Imagining the other guy shagging her. Some people told me i needed therapy when i admitted to that...

That was the only occasion when my fantasies were sexual in nature. Any hetero masturbation was simply looking at a picture of a hot woman and jacking, or imagining a hot woman in my head and jacking. And as i said, the gay ones were simply watching scenes from Queer as Folk and jacking



Edited by nonchalant (11/17/08 09:37 PM)

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#262594 - 11/18/08 10:27 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
Gabbahey Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 43
Gabbahey here:

It's "Gabbahey."

I haven't looked at this board recently----hey there Kathryn!

Nonchalant: Basically, everything Kathryn said. She has great insights, insatiable curiosity, very smart.

The default male identity is about various kinds of performance. All goes back to courtship I think, which is how you get sexual access, which is how your genes are passed on.

So when people ask about "identity" they're also asking about "access." Not just, do I like to have sex with women, but can I get women to have sex with me? Can I compete with other men? Am I damaged goods? Do I have enough resources, a sturdy enough nest, a fat enough stomach, a fancy tail, the right education, to attract a mate? Etc.

After years of therapy, all I've really settled is that so much pressure was applied to the neural pathways associated with sex and relationships, that they burned out. Think Clockwork Orange-style aversion conditioning. I haven't dated for many years, except pretend dating my therapist, the one-stop relationship. I have fantasies, mostly hetero, but usually see no path forward to actual relationships, not friends or partners. I'm a good co-worker, from a distance. grin

If you look up my posts, I go on and on about these things. I may have deleted a few.

But a warning: being articulate doesn't mean being right. Sometimes I'm just having fun with words.

Kathryn is more rigorous as an analyst.

Unfortunately, I can't get into a big new discussion right now. I'm just taking a break from my enslavement to the IRS---work, that is.

I'll try to check in later.


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#262720 - 11/19/08 03:39 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Gabbahey]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


Hey Mike!!!

Good to see you type again.

The thing is you express what I think and feel -- but with using such fewer words smile

And so as not to offend those who believe they were born gay, maybe you were, but that doesn't mean everyone is.

But for a guy who is predominantly heterosexually oriented, then I think Mike makes a lot of sense.

K.


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