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#262245 - 11/17/08 01:14 PM Nonchalant
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303

Reading your post, it seems to me that you really shouldn't jump to conclussions about what which orientation may describe you best -- straight, bi or gay.

Or, for that matter, hetero-romantic and homo-sexual.

For a rather light treatment of the issue, there's a blog page called "I"m gay, you're not" devoted to OCD and OCD as it relates to obsessing about one's orientation, or the idea one might be gay. It's written by a gay guy. You should be able to just google the title and find it.

Then you might check out Joe Kort's web page, a gay therapist who talks about straight men who have sex with men, bi men, gay men. He's also a gay therapist.

Might being hetero-romantic and homo-sexual just be a way of denying one is really gay? Might be. Then again, it might be a way of denying one is really straight as well. And it might be a way of insuring that intimacy and sex remain apart because it's too scary to bring them together.

It might mean a lot of things. It might mean not much at all.

Obsessing over gay porn might be your way of facing your greatest fears -- ie, that you might be gay.

Obsessing over whether you're gay might be less scary than being lost in an intimate relationship with a woman....

Only you can figure out what it means for you.

And sometimes a good therapist can help in doing so.

Personally, I vote that your emotional longings are for women as more indicative of your orientation. Then again, I'm a woman and value my emotional responses over my more purely sexual ones.

Take care,
Katie


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#262248 - 11/17/08 01:38 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
Thanks a lot for the reply

I have regularly frequented Joe Kort's blog and have also talked a lot with him via email. He was reluctant to give an opinion on me as he knew so little about me, but from the details i gave him he said i sounded like "a hetero emotional guy with homo sexual desires" and that my early acting out/abuse may well have homosexually imprinted me and made me associate sex with the male body

However, this was only short relief as my obsession to try and 'prove' my sexuality just came back even stronger

I have never cared about sex, and i am only interested in women with strong morals who don't sleep around. I actually hate the idea of women having sex, period. This has always confused me. I look upon women as chaste and perfect, and it's almost like i feel they are tainted once they become sexually active. I think i may need a therapist to help figure out that one

Therefore i'm a bit like a woman in the sense that emotions and romance mean far more to me than intercourse. In a romantic sense, i have crushed on numerous women (at least 7 intense ones) and never on men: therefore i have always identified as straight. But pictures of naked men produce arousal (not a full erection or even a semi, but i feel quite aroused) for me whereas picture of naked women do not. I just have no idea what to do

Can early homosexual experiences cause men to be a permanent source of arousal? Or does the fact i feel aroused looking at naked men mean i was born homosexual? I just don't know which one to believe, if either



Edited by nonchalant (11/17/08 01:43 PM)

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#262283 - 11/17/08 05:09 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: nonchalant]
Kathryn Offline
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Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


I have no desire to get into the nature/nurture debate -- yet again.

All I can say is that whereas I don't recall ever feeling like I might be a lesbain in some stark way, I do recall some level of "evaluation" -- and that's the best word I can come up with right now, though it's fairly inadequate.

If sexual orientation is a product exclusively of biology, then I'd imagine gender identity would have to be as well, only because how we experience our gender plays a large role in how we relate sexually, it's part of our sexual identity.

And I clearly remember having to really THINK about gender issues, what it meant to be female, a female among females, a female among males, etc....

And I could always understand what lesbians saw in eachother.

I can get aroused by either men or women, though the quality of the arousal is different -- because the arousal has different emotional and cognitive meanings.

I'd imagine a lot of women get aroused by, say, Victoria Secrets, which is probably why it's published in the first place.

And men get aroused by men, which is why straight porn producers hire men with really big penises. Most women really don't care about penis size, so this mandatory requirement for straight male porn stars isn't to please women.

Let's call these sort of arousal homoerotic. The marketing industry wouldn't be nearly as successful without it, no matter how much difficulty people have in talking about it.

What it seems to me is that you have a Madonna/Whore complex -- women are Madonnas, Men whores. Which probably means you feel you must be a Madonna with women, but sexual with men.

Of course I don't really know. But it seems to me this is pretty common among men who have experienced a lot of trauma, especially if that trauma included messages that sex is dirty or bad or degrading or hurtful.

With women, sex would destroy the relationship. Or it would destroy the woman. Or you. Or all three.

Women can't sustain the "attack" of sexual intercourse.

Men maybe can, so you can feel more comfortable having sex with men because they're hard and won't be destroyed.

Or something like this.... Anyway, this is how it seems to me, or something like it. Just from reading on here and elsewhere for a long time.

And then there's the issue of IF women were to ALSO have sexual agency, then she'd destroy you, so you destroy her first by saying she's "fallen" and no longer worthy....

Lot's of men feel this way, abused or not. And it seems abused men simply feel this in a more intense way.

Personally, I think sexual orientation, while it might have some biologically predisposing factors, is at least ALSO about all these push/pull factors, finding the most likely place in which to feel safe enough to claim our sexual pleasures.

And fear/safety questions are probably as revealing as what turns us on in more immediate ways. Because we have to feel safe enough to get turned on in the first place.

Staying in a sexually ambivalent position in regard to our sexual orientation is a pretty safe place to be because we don't have to put much at risk.

Just as staying in a somewhat ambivalent position in regard to my gender identity was safe for me. In my experience being a female was a loosing proposition, and being a male was too.

When you're ready, you'll probably more or less find you can have the best of both worlds in a more or less satisfactory way with whichever sex you end up feeling most comfortable with, both sexually and emotionally.

For now you're probably defining both women and men in starkly different ways: "Women are....", "Men are.....". And while there are differences, the commonalities we share seem to me to be far greater than our differences.

And it's probably these definitions that you're responding to -- including how you deal with your own "feminine" and "masculine" aspects.

Like you write: You're more identified with "femininity" in regard to not caring about sex. Why don't you care about it? What would happen to you if you did care about it? Would you feel bad, dirty, shallow, whatever? Would you have a fall from grace? No longer be the Madonna?

And what about men? Do they represent the sexual virility you wished you could allow yourself? In our culture sex doesn't damage a man, only makes him manlier.

And yes, I'd assume that being abused by a man would imprint homosexual images. How could it not?

Anyway, just some rambling thoughts.

Take care,
Katie


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#262286 - 11/17/08 05:48 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
I have very very low self esteem and have had girls cheat on me before, which i believe is why i'm now completely fixated on chaste, virginal/quasi-virginal girls. I distrust women who sleep around or who have had many sexual partners. I also feel they could never be happy with me as i am not a great lover and i do not have the heterosexual desire of most men

i know that if i lived a homosexual lifestyle, my whole morals would collapse before me. I would sleep around, i would want men for sex rather than relationships, and i would become the type of person i hate

My whole turmoil revolves around my emotional orientation. I understand that i am more sexually aroused by men (although i choose to only masturbate over female erotica) and i accept this but live heterosexually because i have only ever felt romantically about women. However, i constantly (i.e. every minute of every day) obsess about whether or not i could feel emotionally and romantically for man. And in all honesty, i know if i conditioned myself to do so, i probably could. If i said "ok, i'm going to stay away from women and start frequenting with homosexual men" i know i could easily condition myself to feel romantically about them. I talked to a gay guy on MSN and i got on with him very well. This pretty much confirmed to me that i could easily relate to homosexuals, if i gave it a try

The thing is, i have no desire to live a homosexual lifestyle. My attraction to women is too intense for me to feel like i belonged in the gay community. In terms of socialising, i would much rather go out 'on the pull' for women than men. In fact, i don't think i could ever bring myself to kiss a man (although i guess that's a normal response to something you've never done before) It's like i have this whole hetero side which i love, but there's a homo side which i am ignoring and i have to continually justify this to myself and reassure myself that i am living the way i wish to live

I've given myself every label under the sun: hetero emotional and bisexual, hetero emotional and homosexual, bi-curious, straight with a gay porn fetish, heteroflexible, plain old bisexual, but none of them ever seen to fit

Sometimes i think that i have just overthought everything and realised just how nonsensical the whole sexuality thing is. I feel as though everyone could quite easily be bisexual, if they were emotionally open. I just wish i could stop thinking



Edited by nonchalant (11/17/08 06:03 PM)

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#262294 - 11/17/08 06:30 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: nonchalant]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


I imagine a lot of people -- maybe most -- maybe all -- maybe a significant minority -- could be bisexual if they were emotionally open as well. But most don't have a reason to be emotionally open in that way.

I like idealizing heterosexuality. It makes me happy.

If I were raped tomorrow by a guy, then maybe I'd consider idealizing bisexuality or homosexuality. Who knows? But even considering the difficulties of heterosexual relationships, I'm pretty happy being heterosexual. So it's not about not being open-minded. It's about being relatively content.

Have you always been emotionally attracted to women and sexually attracted to men?

What would your ideal relationship look like -- setting aside for a moment which sex that might be with?

Would it be highly sexual?

Non-sexual?

Highly intimate? With lots of holding and cuddling?

What turns you on about men? Their arms, legs, chest, penis? The whole package?

Have you ever been turned on by a woman? Or has it always been more of an emotional thing? Would you like a woman to just hold you without sex?

Would you like a man to hold you without sex?

Is the issue really one of not deciding between men and women?

Or is it more a matter of being afraid of relationships in general?

Did you feel loved as a child by either your mother or father?

When you think about sex with men, which position do you adopt? Is their oral sex? Anal penetration? Are you the top or bottom or both?

Take care,
Katie


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#262295 - 11/17/08 06:45 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
Originally Posted By: Kathryn


I imagine a lot of people -- maybe most -- maybe all -- maybe a significant minority -- could be bisexual if they were emotionally open as well. But most don't have a reason to be emotionally open in that way.

I like idealizing heterosexuality. It makes me happy.

If I were raped tomorrow by a guy, then maybe I'd consider idealizing bisexuality or homosexuality. Who knows? But even considering the difficulties of heterosexual relationships, I'm pretty happy being heterosexual. So it's not about not being open-minded. It's about being relatively content.

Have you always been emotionally attracted to women and sexually attracted to men?

What would your ideal relationship look like -- setting aside for a moment which sex that might be with?

Would it be highly sexual?

Non-sexual?

Highly intimate? With lots of holding and cuddling?

What turns you on about men? Their arms, legs, chest, penis? The whole package?

Have you ever been turned on by a woman? Or has it always been more of an emotional thing? Would you like a woman to just hold you without sex?

Would you like a man to hold you without sex?

Is the issue really one of not deciding between men and women?

Or is it more a matter of being afraid of relationships in general?

Did you feel loved as a child by either your mother or father?

When you think about sex with men, which position do you adopt? Is their oral sex? Anal penetration? Are you the top or bottom or both?

Take care,
Katie


In terms of fantasies and masturbation, i led a strict double life. About 85% of the time i jacked off over erotic images of women (fixating on their legs) and the other 15% of the time i would get off to gay man on man pornography (these were always scenes from Queer as Folk, not regular porn, and they were always the same 4 or 5 scenes, always involving Brian and Justin, if you know the show...) I have never masturbated over a picture of a man. In terms of sex itself, i have slept with 6 women. I can only remember being fulfilled with 1 of these though. In fact, i adored sex with this girl and couldn't get enough of it. This was mainly because she was the dominant one. I hate being on top during sex, and get minimal pleasure from this

From all that you could maybe say i was sexually bisexual, but once i started obsessing about my sexuality i started to doubt my hetero side. I knew that erotic pictures of women only aroused me when i was masturbating (i.e. i wouldn't get aroused if i wasn't touching myself) but i figured i just had a low arousability. When the sexuality obsession began, i started to look at pictures of naked men to test my reactions, and they did arouse me a great deal more (not enough to give me an erection, but more of a 'heart pounding' than female erotica). Since then, i never want to have sex with my girlfriend. It's like i've resigned myself to being more sexually aroused by guys and i can't bring myself to even attempt it with women anymore

Will post more in a minute....


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#262300 - 11/17/08 06:57 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: nonchalant]
nonchalant Offline


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Northern Ireland, UK
I know you probably didn't mean for me to answer all these questions one by one, but i'll do it anyway. Only way i can make sure i cover everything


Have you always been emotionally attracted to women and sexually attracted to men?

At the time i was abused, i was experiencing my first crush on a girl. I was 11 years old and i felt like i was in love with her, in my own naive little way. Heart skipped a beat every time i saw her etc. I have had about 7 or so similar crushes in the years since. I have never had a single romantic thought about another man


What would your ideal relationship look like -- setting aside for a moment which sex that might be with? Would it be highly sexual? Non-sexual? Highly intimate? With lots of holding and cuddling?

It would be my current relationship, only without the sexuality crisis. She is a chaste girl who doesn't care much about sex. I adore the intimacy we share. I love kissing/cuddling/holding a woman, and i do desire her sexually quite frequently (although i can only manage oral sex now, i can't bring myself to have intercourse) We go to the movies, go walking together, watch DVDs together every night. I feel like i could spend my whole life with her. But yet i'm terrified that one day i will realise i'd rather be with a man

What turns you on about men? Their arms, legs, chest, penis? The whole package?

A hairless, tanned, toned torso. Any hint of body hair and i am turned off completely

Have you ever been turned on by a woman? Or has it always been more of an emotional thing? Would you like a woman to just hold you without sex?

Yeah i have been turn on by woman numerous times. I can get an erection just from kissing a woman, although this doesn't happen every time. I get an erection from fingering a woman, but i am completely flaccid if i am performing cunnilingus on her (apologies for the graphics) I was constantly aroused around my first girlfriend (by far the most attractive girl i've ever dated) but i feel my sexual arousal for women has greatly decreased in recent times. I do not feel remotely aroused by the idea of having sex with a woman, but in the heat of the moment i often want to do it

Would you like a man to hold you without sex?
I haven't had a close male friend since i was around 13 years old. I would love to be 'one of the lads' and have a group of close male friends, or even just one, but i'm terrified it would become sexual

Is the issue really one of not deciding between men and women? Or is it more a matter of being afraid of relationships in general?

The main issue is fear of losing control of my sexuality, and fear of not knowing what path is the right one. I was once very scared of relationships as i don't trust people, but i worked through that in my current relationship

Did you feel loved as a child by either your mother or father?

I was far, far too close to my mother, and i felt completely inadequate with regards my father. I wanted to be a man like him but just couldn't be. He died when i was 19. Maybe irrelevant, just pointing that out

When you think about sex with men, which position do you adopt? Is their oral sex? Anal penetration? Are you the top or bottom or both?

I don't actually fantasise about sex with men. All i ever did was masturbate over the gay scenes from Queer as Folk. However, since i began obsessing about my sexuality, i continually try to think of things i would do and things i wouldn't. To be honest, i'm more aroused by the idea of masturbating whilst looking at a naked guy, than actually doing anything with the guy himself. However, the idea of being a 'top' or giving a guy a blow job are both quite arousing. When i think about it, the guy has to be just a figment of my imagination though. If it's a guy i know or a male celeb, it loses its arousability



Edited by nonchalant (11/17/08 07:08 PM)

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#262312 - 11/17/08 07:29 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: nonchalant]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


It's not at all uncommon for women who lead very satisfying straight lives to rely on lesbian fantasies. I happen to consider such women straight. Why? Because they're happy living a straight life, even though, in order to have a orgasm they use lesbian fantasies.

Why men seem to deal with their homoerotic experiences and fantasies with so much more obsession and stress is an interesting thing, and no one has "The" answer.

But I suspect it's largely because maintaining a masculine identity is more work. Men can loose their masculine status with the wrong twist of the wrist. Women have to really be "dykes" to be at risk.

And when you have an experience which is fragmenting -- like sexual abuse -- then all these weak spots get thrown into the stew of this fragmentation.

And it sounds to me like your homosexual interests are more defensive in nature, for whatever that's worth, and it might not be worth much at all.

Whether some people are born gay or not, there's certainly a difference between someone who was attracted to boys since childhood and someone who develops an attraction later on in life. Maybe the early homosexual was born gay, but the later development sort of hints at a psychodynamic reason. Which, by the way, doesn't mean it's less real or more "pathological". It does mean, however, that there's probably not a gay gene running around in your veins.

Still, it seems to me that the real issue is the issue of being "chaste", issues with women, sexuality, anihilation anxiety, etc.... Fears of using your penis to penetrate another, and probably fears of penetrating another emotionally as well, etc....

But all these anxieties might be so great that you'll find it easier to be with men. Which, even though I doubt you were born gay, would be just fine if you can be relatively content and feel relatively whole rather than fearing that you'll fragment into itsy bitsy pieces and disappear altogether.

But it sounds like you might need help in stabilizing a more fundamental sense of self -- then the sexuality issues will resolve themselves.

Sometimes it's easier to focus on sexual orientation issues rather than the even more anxiety-provoking issues of basic survival. And it doesn't have to happen over night.

And a really good therapist can be so helpful.

Take care,
Katie


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#262314 - 11/17/08 07:33 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303


P.S.

Some months ago there was a guy called Gabbehay, or Gabbahey. You might want to look up his posts. He was really articulate, and there's some things you say that remind me of him, including avoiding men because of fear that it will lead to chaos.

K.


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#262315 - 11/17/08 07:38 PM Re: Nonchalant [Re: Kathryn]
Kathryn Offline
Guest

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 303
And BTW, I'm glad you answered all the questions. I get to learn new things and you get the chance to write and see your thoughts and feelings take written form.

It's a win-win situation.

Write all you want....

And don't worry about getting graphic. Sex is graphic.

K.


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