Newest Members
lilac, The Wife Of, smusab, whiteflag, North101
12287 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
cyclebreaker (41), monkeybusinessinky (28), Tom Byrnes (55), wind west (30)
Who's Online
2 registered (randombreeze, 1 invisible), 38 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12287 Members
73 Forums
63223 Topics
442102 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#261579 - 11/14/08 09:39 AM How often do you say, "I'm sorry?"
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
You know, you are standing in line somewhere, someone crosses in front of you, you are coming through any grocery store and some one comes screaming around the corner with their cart...you are in any number of situations and, it just comes out...

"Oh, I'm sorry."

And, no, I do not mean when it is certainly apropriate, as in any number of situations but, maybe after the guy runs into your car in the parking lot and you find yourself asking him, "I am sorry, are you all right?"

Sorry, for?

Interesting thing, some survivors do...

What do ya think that is all about?


:-)


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

Top
#261597 - 11/14/08 11:44 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: ttoon]
theraven Offline


Registered: 11/08/08
Posts: 34
Loc: US of A
I could kick myself when I say sorry to people who owe me an apology...I do it a lot (but less and less)

I think for me it has to do with trying to keep the peace, because if the peace is kept then I will remain safe. Who would try to hurt me if I'm obviously so gracious as to apologize?

I also will say something -almost as a reflex- agreeing with something that someone says - even when I don't agree! That really burns me up. First I started to quickly change my agreeing (Oh, no actually, I think that what your saying is a bowl of frootloops) what I do now, which comes more naturally, is say nothing at all. Then the person adds to what they were saying and it gives me time to feel comfortable about disagreeing. And then I say what I really think. It is an exercise now, but I hope for it to become natural.

I think both of these things (apologizing and agreeing) have to do with not wanting cause ripples because ripples turn into waves turn into storm turns into lightning turns into me getting hurt. I think it is an extreme reaction because of the extreme circumstances of my past.


Top
#261600 - 11/14/08 12:07 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: theraven]
Geeders Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 1901
Loc: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
Not intending to be glib, there is a cultural aspect to this as well. Here in Anglo Canada at least, we have a propensity to say sorry for EVERYTHING! Even if its not out fault we say sorry. Even if its clearly someone else's fault we say sorry. I think its becasue we too, for varying reasons also do not wish to rock the boat, creat ripples that turn into waves that turn into....

Jim

_________________________
My name is Jim
WoR Mysthaven 2008, Level 2 WoR Alta 2009, Kirkridge 2010, 2011, Oprah 200 men

Top
#261616 - 11/14/08 03:20 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: Geeders]
Nyjah Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/14/07
Posts: 610
I say it all the time. When I bump into people or even when they walk into me. It doesn't make much sense. But I do.


Top
#261636 - 11/14/08 05:21 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: Nyjah]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6818
Loc: USA
My wife and I used to say it all the time; to others and to each other. As long as we were saying that, our marriage was healthy. When I "remembered" and entered into recovery, I stopped saying it and our marriage became less healthy.

Allen

pufferfish whistle


Top
#261644 - 11/14/08 06:42 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: pufferfish]
loberhead Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/08
Posts: 172
I say it a lot! I say it when I am scared that someone is mad at me or I want to gain his or her approval in some way. I also say it just in case I fucked up. I do feel like I fuck up quite a lot and, as with the abuse, I have trouble knowing when I fucked up or not.. so better just say it in case. Course, I also say it when it is appropriate and necessary.


Top
#261648 - 11/14/08 07:11 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: ttoon]
michaelmovies Offline


Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 21
Loc: Long Beach, CA, USA
I say sorry almost continuously ... I apologize to anyone, anyone at all that gives me time or attention. Yesterday I'm walking the dogs, feeling lonely and missing my wife ... a guy I've only talked to twice stops me on the street and says he hopes we'll be ok. Really nice, really understanding ... and all I can say is "I'm sorry." cause I'm so weak.

_________________________
"Because the stars won't reach for us ..."

Top
#261681 - 11/14/08 09:56 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: michaelmovies]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
I'm guilty of oversorryness as well. I think it might be part of the sexualization effect. I learned to always assume that other people are worthy of apologies but I'm not. And when someone apologizes to me, I always feel compelled 2 say "oh, it's ok." instead of "I accept your appology.".

I'm working on that, but I cud almost see one of my perps saying "I'm sorry I raped you." and I wud say "oh, it's ok."

UHG! I wud HATE myself if I did that! No I'm sure I'm not that bad, but, you know what I mean!



_________________________
My Story
My Art

Top
#261690 - 11/14/08 10:35 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: blueshift]
Bewlayb1 Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 241
Loc: NYC
Me too. I say it so often. When I was a child, following the abuse, I almost never spoke. Probably every other sentence out of my mouth was "I'm sorry." I wish it would go away.

Secretly, I'm not sorry. I always have good intentions. I make mistakes, but honest mistakes. It's not genuine. I'm not sure it ever was. It's more like a "please don't hurt me."


Top
#261697 - 11/14/08 11:17 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: Bewlayb1]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Thanks, guys...

I do it, too and, for all the work and effort I put into recovery I find it frustrating that something like these things are still there, nagging me.

I still use the words "event, episode, experience," instead of the word rape. I still, sometimes say, "What happened," rather than what was done to me. The words "what happened," suggest that rape falls into the natural order of things in the universe. The sun comes up in the morning, that happens.

What would some good alternatives be? Or, any other examples of how the language we use keeps us where we are?


:-)



Thanks


Dave


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

Top
#261706 - 11/15/08 12:55 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: ttoon]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
Dave,

There's a quote that I particularly like: "Change your vocabulary and you change your attitude. Change your attitude and you change your life." anon

I have tried to live by the first statement and as I become more and more familiar with it, I find the second statement to be so very true.

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

Top
#262261 - 11/17/08 03:14 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: ttoon]
Stretch73 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 336
Loc: Sea Isle City, NJ
I make an effort not to apologize to anyone!

_________________________
"I was so poor growing up, that if I wasn't born a boy, I wouldn't have had anything to play with." Rodney Dangerfield

Top
#262267 - 11/17/08 03:57 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: Stretch73]
KENKEN Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 762
Loc: NOTHERN COLORADO
For me, it all depends on the mood I am in. I either say, I am sorry, say nothing or say F...k you.
\
Of course, then I feel guilty and beat myself up for saying the wrong thing.

Ken

_________________________
I AM A GOOD PERSON, I AM A GOOD MAN

From the Movie: Antwone Fisher

***WOR ALUMNI SEQUOIA MARCH 2008***

Top
#262273 - 11/17/08 04:20 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: KENKEN]
oriolesguy Offline


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 106
Loc: Long Island, NY
Holy shit. You just made me reread my own Survivor Story.... and there are too many times that I see where I either apologize or ask for forgiveness from the readers. It just came as a natural reaction, and I just felt I had to, because I didn't want to put anyone through my shit. Read my story and you'll see what I mean.

In other ways, though, I may not say it, but I frequently feel it. And that's in contrast to the arrogant son of a bitch I used to be. I've been humbled quite a bit.

Oriolesguy


Top
#262384 - 11/17/08 11:55 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: ttoon]
midnight51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/02/03
Posts: 132
It's not "I'm sorry" for me it's "Excuse me". I'm always saying "Excuse me" I have no idea why, anywhere I go anything I do I always feel like I have to say it whenever I want to go somewhere or do anything it's always like I'm in someone's way or someone is in my way or whatever it is and I feel guilty for saying it a lot like I'm some kind of jerkoff or something

_________________________
http://midnight61.blogspot.com/

Top
#262392 - 11/18/08 01:03 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: ttoon]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
More and more I'm realizing my whole existence is an apology for existing. I hate it. I'm sick of it.



No More!!



_________________________
My Story
My Art

Top
#262394 - 11/18/08 01:25 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: blueshift]
behindthewall Offline


Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 126
Loc: US
how do u stop though? sayin im sorry comes as naturally as breathin. actually it probably comes easier than breathin sometimes.


Top
#262401 - 11/18/08 01:47 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: behindthewall]
30yearson Offline


Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 3
I'll keep saying it until I'm forgiven. Of course, that forgiveness is only mine to give, even if I keep wanting it from someone else.


Top
#262403 - 11/18/08 01:51 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: behindthewall]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Originally Posted By: behindthewall
how do u stop though? sayin im sorry comes as naturally as breathin. actually it probably comes easier than breathin sometimes.


Yup...that's the $20.000.000 question isn't it?!



_________________________
My Story
My Art

Top
#262427 - 11/18/08 05:17 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: blueshift]
siranthonysghost Offline


Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 24
Loc: Hawaii
Wow, what an interesting question. After thinking about it I realized I say it all the time! I think it kind of looses its meaning when it is your default response to things. Now, when I say 'I'm sorry' I don't know if i am saying it because I mean it, or because it is a knee-jerk response.


Top
#262446 - 11/18/08 09:21 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: siranthonysghost]
steveb121 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Swindon, UK
I seldom say sorry now, because I watch what i say and watch how it could affect me

That doesn't mean that I don't say sorry when I'm in the wrong, but I refuse to apologise for breathing, living and walking, and no one will make me feel less than adequate that I could have, but that has lost it's power now.

I have a right to be heard, to be paid attention to and applauded for what I do, because I do what I do extremely well, and avoid doing the crap things.

I have mates who do those things for me, because they're good at that, and by not doing it myself, I stay OK

'Rock on' guys and don't feel less than others, because it's your right to speak and say what you feel is yours alone, so use it wisely and grow with it

Ramble over....

_________________________
www.amsosa.com

Top
#262482 - 11/18/08 03:03 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: steveb121]
theraven Offline


Registered: 11/08/08
Posts: 34
Loc: US of A
I think 30yearson may be onto something...
maybe it will be easier to stop apologizing unnecessarily once we are able to forgive ourselves.

hmmmm


Top
#262484 - 11/18/08 03:29 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: theraven]
michaelmovies Offline


Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 21
Loc: Long Beach, CA, USA
I just realized last night just how much I say "I'm sorry" ... and how much my wife and family have caught on to it. I can't make a real apology for my actions anymore, because at some level they believe that's just my experience kicking in ... so as an adult it becomes very hard to make real amends for something I've done wrong in my life and relationships.

_________________________
"Because the stars won't reach for us ..."

Top
#262500 - 11/18/08 05:24 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: theraven]
steveb121 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/02/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Swindon, UK





Top
#262502 - 11/18/08 05:45 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: steveb121]
siranthonysghost Offline


Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 24
Loc: Hawaii
Michaelmovies,

You hit a nerve with me on that last post. I feel like I am also unable to form real apologies as well, because so much of my life was simply saying the word without the full meaning, or understanding the meaning. I think another, and perhaps harder, question is: how often do we say "I love you" and really mean it.


Top
#262511 - 11/18/08 06:21 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: siranthonysghost]
michaelmovies Offline


Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 21
Loc: Long Beach, CA, USA
All I know is when I say "I love you" I mean it like I mean "Thank You" ... it hurts to say something so big and so hard and know that the person receiving it doesn't understand just how much I mean it.

_________________________
"Because the stars won't reach for us ..."

Top
#262828 - 11/20/08 07:05 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: michaelmovies]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1938
Loc: durham, north england
Actually it's great to read this topic, sinse I always thought chronic appologitus was something more or less unique to me, given a combination of my opinion of my self, my lack of site, and my belief that anyone who even does anything for me is being incredibly tolerant.

the bit about someone crossing my path and me appologising, ---- wow! I did that about 20 minutes ago when walking through the street.

It's a bit of a standing joke with some of my close friends, that if I'm ever upset, I spend about half an hour being upset, and an hour appologising! And the worst thing? i actually feel! sorry!

the really odd thing is, though I am naturally quite shy, I can actually talk to most people, but the second they say something, ---- it doesn't even have to be a cryticism, just a disagreement with my opinions, i start appologising!

In fact one thing that's really helpful in talking to my counceler is that she is paid to be there, so it's not required that I apologise to her or feel guilty about taking up her time.


Top
#262985 - 11/21/08 01:51 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: dark empathy]
88SEAN88 Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/23/07
Posts: 19
Loc: queensland, australia
This is a great thread! I'm guilty of this, and my Therapist now has banned me from saying sorry ... she chastises me every time I do.

_________________________
...

Top
#262986 - 11/21/08 01:52 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: michaelmovies]
88SEAN88 Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/23/07
Posts: 19
Loc: queensland, australia
Originally Posted By: michaelmovies
All I know is when I say "I love you" I mean it like I mean "Thank You" ... it hurts to say something so big and so hard and know that the person receiving it doesn't understand just how much I mean it.


Oh, and I really identify with this! Thanks Michael!

_________________________
...

Top
#262993 - 11/21/08 08:33 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: 88SEAN88]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11027
Loc: Denver, CO
Dave,

Good topic. I recall a time when I would say I was sorry for just about anything, and people could convince me it was my fault! My self-image and self-respect were so low I could have been convinced I was the sole cause of the civil war, and would have apologized. These days, when someone comes up to me around a corner and very fast, I either say "pardon" or let them say it for a change. That took a long time to put into place.


Andy

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

Top
#262997 - 11/21/08 08:45 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: ttoon]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
in light of the conjoining in my brain of the two recently emerging topics of both excessive apologizing and shame, i felt a sudden attraction to this thread.

so taking a little desk chair excursion i visited a couple of cyber lands.

first stop, etymology dictionary which gives this info about the word 'sorry':

O.E. sarig "distressed, full of sorrow," from W.Gmc. *sairig-, from *sairaz "pain" (physical and mental); related to sar (see sore). Meaning "wretched, worthless, poor" first recorded c.1250. Spelling shift from -a- to -o- by influence of sorrow. Apologetic sense (short for I'm sorry) is attested from 1834; phrase sorry about that popularized 1960s by U.S. TV show "Get Smart."

second stop, to the definition of 'sorry' itself:

1. Feeling or expressing sympathy, pity, or regret: I'm sorry I'm late.
2. Worthless or inferior; paltry: a sorry excuse.
3. Causing sorrow, grief, or misfortune; grievous: a sorry development.


then it was suggested: 'see sore', so i saw 'sore':

1. Painful to the touch; tender.
2. Feeling physical pain; hurting: sore all over.
3. Causing misery, sorrow, or distress; grievous: in sore need.
4. Causing embarrassment or irritation: a sore subject.
5. Full of distress; sorrowful.
6. Informal Angry; offended.


what i realized is that when we speak about 'sorry' the reference is more to the 'is-ness' than the 'does-ness' of apology, or rather, perhaps appall-ogy.

appall:

1. To depress or discourage with fear; to impress with fear in such a manner that the mind shrinks, or loses its firmness; to overcome with sudden terror or horror; to dismay; as, the sight appalled the stoutest heart.

i think the 'appall' part comes from toxic shame [as opposed to healthy shame]. the state of being that living breathing apology [n] for daring to present myself in public in the first place. then, at times when my presence collides or intersects with that of another in a moment or place in temporal space, all of my toxic shame buttons get pushed by the 'man behind the curtain' who works tirelessly to ensure that no one be harmed by the leperous 'me'. like in younger times when the social practice was that lepers had to call out to warn people of their approach.

'i am coming, look out, don't get 'me' on you! run for your life, your 'chi'. don't be sullied by my presence!'

yes for me, obsessive appall-ogy underscores the subconscious notion that i am worthless and don't deserve to cause any type of feeling mechanism to activate in you. you should not have to react to me. you should not have to be impeded in your line of travel by the vehicle of 'me'. your right to occupy that physical space, to breath that air, is so much greater than mine. in fact all of your rights come first. mine are secondary, because mine don't count. i should remain the silent invisible nothingness that i was groomed to be in a family system that used me as a scapegoat for it's own toxic shame. its own sense of restraint for ever causing offence to anyone.

toxic shame assumes all people are unequivocally offensible, and that i am unworthy of any type of loving consideration. that i am not a man among equals.

i bury myself in moral platitudes and create a belief system that if i follow all of those things that would keep me from winning the disapproval of other, then i will be safe.

you see, it's so important to avoid the disapproval of other, and that is the 'sorry' truth of the toxic shame bound person, is that we don't merely seek others' approval, but rather must avoid their disapproval at all costs, because deep down, we sense that we would never be worthy of it, and so the solution of course then is to hide, to isolate from the very possibility of affronting someone with my useless self. to create a life where one would never have to engage in any type of personal relationship, because we are not worthy of it! every breath taken, and every move made becomes a strategic investment in the cause for avoiding offense of others' sensibilities.

in that sense life becomes a silent apology that no one ever hears.

i must stop for a bit and process these feelings that have come up before they turn themselves into thoughts and file and galvanize themselves in the steel trap of my mind.

thanks for the platform.

have a day, good peeple, see you in the next thread.....

ron

ps. the tendency to grandiosity is overcompensation, an attempt to prove and hide from myself the sad fear that all of the above is not true, and is merely the flip side of the toxic shame coin; i know because i have lived there, too. peace...






Edited by Sans Logos (11/21/08 08:48 AM)
_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


Top
#263005 - 11/21/08 10:26 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: Sans Logos]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Thanks, ron,


There is only one way to follow that...

So, assuming we say "I am sorry," even when it might not be apropriate or maybe, disproportionate to the event, situation, conversation, whatever...by doing it, would it be safe, accurate to suggest that it comes from a "victim" place?

If it is...how do we step outside of that...for the moment?

Would the honest expression of any emotion take us out of that place?

I am not looking for a debate on what the honest expression of any given emotion might be.

Let's consider anger. Anger in it's purest form helps us to define and maintain our boundaries.

"I am angry as I read your response to this post." It is neither a judgment or criticism...it is simply a statement of fact. I feel it. It is not right or wrong.

A distortion of anger might read something like, "Hey, smartass, where do you get off?" Sarcasm is always a fun sort of distortion of anger and one I am very familiar with having grown up with parents that were extremely angry people.

Helpless and hopeless are thought to be distortions of anger, too. "You are right, I don't know what I was thinking. Sorry."

Who doesn't know or is not familiar with rage as a distortion of anger?

So, whenever or wherever anger might be disproportionate to the events right in front of you...would it be safe to say there is residual anger left over from any other number of evens that we were unable or unwilling to express?

So, rather than saying, "I am sorry," in situations where it does not or no longer is apropriate...what is the alternative...in order to step outside the victim box?


:-)


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

Top
#263007 - 11/21/08 11:02 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: Sans Logos]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
Oh, woops...I double posted...

I'm sorry laugh


Dave



Edited by ttoon (11/21/08 11:03 AM)
_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

Top
#263010 - 11/21/08 11:10 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: Sans Logos]
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Great topic & dialogue

Currently pondering the differences, also the subsequent affects of disagreement & disapproval in the context of how we respond to each other including our posts at MS.

More grist for the brain-mill

Thanks!

C

_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


Top
#263017 - 11/21/08 12:24 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: ttoon]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
dave i think i comprehend what you are asking.

in light of my own situation where the space between floor and ceiling of my own self esteem was so narrow, there was no other air to breathe but that of shame.

anger was not permitted. joy was disapproved.

my sa situation was that, to my memory, my brother was the only abuser [ a serial abuser of both myself and several other siblings] there may have been other abuse of which i am not currently aware, but the most tragic part of the disease of the family system i was born and bred into, thrived on secrecy, was toxic shame based, and neither one of my parents nor any of my extended family exuded the emotion of joy. the only emotions that we witnessed were anger and shame. there were no other emotions mirrored in the lives of any of my relatives. and because the stage had been set for me to act out of shame, i made choices in my people pleasing search for love and acceptance that put me in situations where i was raped several times, once with a knife at my throat.

we in my family system were tarred and feathered in the toxicity of shame, where there is no room for any other type of emotional psychic expression.

so the roots of my own dysfunction are systemic and include sexual abuse, within the context of an unrelenting climate of toxic shame, anger, control.

my sa did not happen outside 'the happy home'. it occurred as part of dark dungeon where the finest expressions of the human spirit would not be honored; this was the fertile soil of my emergence.

anger? what a luxury. never developed that part of my nature. i would have been pulverized had i behaved in disagreement of any sort. i learned to shut up and put up, yearning only for the day when i would turn 18 and be free do get the hell out of that asylum. ASYLUM! how can one word bear opposite meanings at the same time!

i am not sure if you are saying that you use 'i'm sorry' to mask your 'real' response, which is inhibited and kept hidden.

my anger is only permitted where i am in full control of the situation, and there is no danger of retaliation. for instance, in my car, with no witnesses, when someone pulls out in front of me, or does not go fast enough, i launch into a an inner dialogue such as i would never do in reality. or in a 3d situation, i would just squelch my knee-jerk anger response and be passive aggressive, or pretend to have no reaction, till later, when alone, i would vent in my own head or eat a carton of iced cream or a bag of m&m's.... a large bag, or seek to get my needs met spending hours in front of a computer terminal [there it is again, and indictment from the universe in the realm of language: the word 'terminal!'] typing thoughts grown out of misunderstood repressed feelings as an outlet for creativity.

but all that anger response suppression for me, grows out of the toxic shame base. the fact that everyone else's feeling gets placed before mine. i never learned about a judicial system for evaluating the merits of each situations, because the course for developing equitable criteria for making fair judgment never offered in the school of my family. since no one had a voice, then it followed they had no ears, no eyes, no heart, no mind. no input, no output.

under these circumstances, there is no natural or pure emotive currency. only fear. compassion and empathy could not develop. no opinions, no hopes no dreams, except as they reflected the family ethic: which was, first, 'do no harm' to the family image.

yes, my anger seeps out, and i constantly have to monitor it while i balance on the teeter totter of fairness and self-affirmation, and healthy self parenting.

but i have been working for years to erase the effect and the baggage of a life built on the mirey clay of toxic shame. to lay a new foundation as i build, while at the same time, being careful that the whole mansion does not come toppling to the ground when i screw up.

for me the evidence that i am finding freedom, is the fact that my former compulsive behaviors have relaxed their grip on me, and i have taken my power back, and begun to allow myself to be in situations where my shame and anger can be tested, without resorting to my usual flight response. through all these years of recovery, at least i have addressed the fear factor.

baby steps.

and the next frontier is the toxic shame. and beyond that, i hope to see a ron uninhibited and fully blossomed in all of his skills and talents.

my main concern for today, is that time is running out, and i may physically fall apart before i ever get the chance to see me fly.

but, i plod on.

well, my brain hurts and i must stop. this has been a day of reckoning for me. i hope this makes sense, and if it doesn't, i'm not sorry, but i mean no disrespect.

laugh

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


Top
#263019 - 11/21/08 12:54 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: Sans Logos]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
ron,

It makes absolute sense.

There is a theory which suggests that we are only born with two fears. That off falling and that of loud noises. Every other fear we currently enjoy, is learned.

As you think about that, consider it, imagine the enormity of it. We become afraid to feel, to express the anger that is certainly apropriate, absolutely necessary.

Drop a Mento into a bottle of Diet Coke and try to stop what happens as a natural consequence as these two things come together.

To any and every parent, watch your toddler as he plays. See how it works, the natural expression of anger, of sadness, of joy. When they see themselves in a mirror tthey may laugh with abandon...as you smile or, frown at them, they may mimic the smile, the may laugh, they might cry. They are processing who they are and how they fit into this space, our space that we share.

As they play, watch them as a favorite toy falls outside their reach, depending on their developmental stage they may go through every one of the stages of loss. Denial...as they stare at it, no, hey! Anger...as they realize and are now aware that it is outside their reach. They bargain by trying to figure out away to reach it, grabbing for it. And sadness, as they realize they cannot reach it. Then, for most, an amazing thing happens, if we allow them to process it...they accept it and move on. They might pick up another toy, start singing again...they are done with it.

Emotions are not the enemy...they allow us to process everything that goes on in our lives. If there is an enemy, it is those people who would suppress the natural expression of it or, them. Either through their own selfish needs or, because of circumstance.

You have, as usual, most eloquently desrcribed mine and I would bet a lot of the people here...the process as it unfolds in our families as we grow up.

We learned that anger was to be feared, we watched as it hurt people or us...but, it is a tool first, to help us define who we are as we wander around on this planet.

Unfortunately, like so many things, it can also be a weapon.

A hammer is a tool, but can also be used to kill...hammer not bad, person that uses it to kill...bad.


Thanks, ron...


Dave

_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

Top
#263035 - 11/21/08 05:32 PM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: Sans Logos]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Ron,

My topic on shame had it's orgin here when I tried to respond to this post.
It just took off from here and before I knew it I had entirely new topic.
You and Dave are talking about exacting the feelings that caused me to explore the topic of shame.
Because most of my life until the last few years.
I did not feel I was worthly to even exist.
Much less have the right to my needs or feelings or them being met or recognized.
I always felt that for some reason I was less than human. Much less my needs or feelings being equally as important as anybody else's.

And I can't really blame my parents because as chilren they were raised and treated the same way. Who knows where this toxic shame orginated in my family, it's been going on for generations.
But I know that I would like for it to end with me. And for it to end in me today.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

Top
#263380 - 11/23/08 09:07 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: ttoon]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
Originally Posted By: ttoon
There is a theory which suggests that we are only born with two fears. That off falling and that of loud noises. Every other fear we currently enjoy, is learned.


i love that dave, so true about the two fears. i 3 parrots and sure enough the thing that gets their feathers ruffled initiating a startle response are when they lose their footing [ better known as the ' mrs fletcher ' response]on their cage or perch, and when there is some sudden noise [better known as the ' who's for dinner? ' response]. if you subscribe to the theory of evolution, it follows that we would have maintained that protective attribute in our current stage, survival being the ultimate motivation for fight or flight.

hey, cool name for a website....whodda thunk it? as a matter of fact, who did thunk it?

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


Top
#263382 - 11/23/08 09:21 AM Re: How often do you say, "I'm sorry?" [Re: michael banks]
Sans Logos Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
mike it is such a timely topic for me. even though i tackled shame big time back in 1988 when bradshaw's book 'healing the shame that binds you' came out, i did not have enough hindsight at the time, to see how this would insinuate itself into my constitution, and carry itself over for decades in a manner that was not as obvious at the time as it is today in this particular moment.

the realization of how it has shaped my entire life's trajectory has got me reeling.

for me, shame belies the OCD behaviors i struggled with all of my life, and now with most of them gone, i am just waiting for that moment of epiphany went it becomes clear that my recovery path was not a ruse leading to a dead end.

oh yea, btw, i stopped blaming my parents for not being perfect long time ago, thankfully. i have forgiven them for that, and myself for expecting them so. they were taught to transmit the message of perfection and ultimate authority, but i understand that they were shaped by a cultural and family ethic where shame was allowed to rule and prevail. at some point i think my dad even came around when he made a license plate that he posted on the front of his care that said:

.......p o b o d y' s .......n e r f e c t

seeing that attitude change contributed to helping me let go the fear of him that i carried for so many years. unfortunately, it did not bring us closer together. but that's another thread.

thanks to you and dave and everyone, for this great topic. it helped me come to terms with a lotta crap.

ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, TJ jeff 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.