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#261382 - 11/12/08 09:00 PM 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse??
onlyakid Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1552
Loc: New Jersey
There is a possibility that this kid has been pyschially or sexually abused. I know a fellow survivor with pyschal / sexual abuse history who has contacted the boys attorney to be a witness in the case if necessary. Right now we may have to wait but I wanted to pass along this note from my friend (non-ms member) so that you will be aware and in the future maybe you can help to keep this boy alive. They have charged him as an adult and he could possibly face the death penalty

" I have been in touch with the Atty defending the 8yo boy in AZ whom reportedly murdered his father and his father's friend. He is under a gag-order but he could listen to what I and WE can possibly offer.

Here's a chance for us to reach out to an 8 yo boy and pull him from a possible death sentence and a life of hell. He clearly (IMO) was defending himself from some sort of abuse. I have offered support in the following way:

1) Parallel-situation witness
2) Funding
3) My network (you guys and or professionals)
4) Whatever else we can think of.

So here it is guys. Are we willing to step up? I dont mean to put anyone on the spot. I just want to open a form where we can discuss ideas of support. I think we have a lot to offer....even if its just money, even if its just our stories or testimonies."

8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father Police Investigating Possible Abuse As Motive

_________________________
"Being with people that understand you...Priceless"

"and i don't want the world to see me, cause i don't think that they'd understand"

"You don't know what love is...you just do as your told"

"My life has changed. What you take as a simple thing, is not so simple for me anymore"


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#261389 - 11/12/08 09:31 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: onlyakid]
pluckmemory Offline


Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 554
There's not a chance in hell an 8-year-old gets a death sentence. If he was abused, then I feel terrible for him. However, that's no excuse to murder one's parents. The Menendez brothers tried that tack to and it didn't work.


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#261396 - 11/12/08 10:03 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: pluckmemory]
Trish4850 Offline
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Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
Jason,

I agree with pluckmemory, there's no way this boy faces the death penalty. I first read the story this afternoon but at that time, they hadn't said anything about abuse; they didn't have to for my mind to go there. No way this child took a shot gun to two adult men without fearing for his life. Reading the article, it's apparent that all involved are following procedures but they're fully aware that all was not well in that home.

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#261403 - 11/12/08 10:24 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: pluckmemory]
king tut Offline
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Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2466
Loc: UK
The boy will not get the death penalty, there is no chance of that at all, and nobody suggests it.

The father had full custody of the boy. The fathers work friend was renting a room. The boy had a spotless school record, never been in trouble, no child protection services ever involved, but police have responded to calls of domestic violence before. The fact that child protection services have never been involved means nothing. This is a situation where abuse is a real possibility. Maybe the boy was being abused, maybe the boy was upset about something. Abuse is probable in my opinion.

The fact is the boy had access to a .22-caliber rifle. I know in America you are big on the right to arms, but the fact is if i had access to a rifle when i was a kid there were times when i would have used it too. Kids think one step at a time, don't understand the consequences. When kids have access to guns, people die. It takes effort with any other weapon, with a gun all you have to do is pull the trigger, no battle, just victory, too dangerous.

I am not taking all the blame away from him, he is a murderer and he is clearly troubled and he will need constant psychological treatment and observation now, his life wont be the same. I know the saying "guns don't kill people, people do" and so i wont argue that, but the fact that he had access to the gun is a matter of accountability also, premeditation is important, although maybe not so important in a pro-longed environment of abuse since it creates a dynamic, but access to a gun readily extinguishes (to an extent) aspects of premiditation (at least with a young child) eliminating the factors attached to this term that imply accountability and blame.

Suffice to say, a lot of work needs to be done with this child, and i believe that the necessary systems that are already in place will deal with this adequately enough without any real need for intervention, we are in a time of knowledge and i doubt very much that there will be an excess of poor judgement in this case.

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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#261411 - 11/12/08 10:41 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: king tut]
Barkabus Offline
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Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 809
Quote:
The fact is the boy had access to a .22-caliber rifle. I know in America you are big on the right to arms, but the fact is if i had access to a rifle when i was a kid there were times when i would have used it too. Kids think one step at a time, don't understand the consequences. When kids have access to guns, people die. It takes effort with any other weapon, with a gun all you have to do is pull the trigger, no battle, just victory, too dangerous.


Let's please not hijack this thread and turn it into a gun rights argument.

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My Story

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#261417 - 11/12/08 11:16 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: Barkabus]
king tut Offline
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Posts: 2466
Loc: UK
trust me, Mike, that wasn't my intention, it's part of the arguement of why and what now

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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#261418 - 11/12/08 11:37 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: king tut]
Trucker51 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
This is Arizona, where he might get life in prison if convicted as an adult, even though he is 8 years old. There are a number of States where this would not be the case but generally the American south is the worst place for a kid to try this kind of thing. They just don't seem to care what the reason was. About the only issue is whether the kid should have known that what he was doing was wrong or not. That kid in Florida that was convicted as an adult at the age of 12 is back in the joint for violating his parole. So this kind of outcome isn't that far-fetched given some history in Arizona and the deep South.

There was a case in Wyoming a few years back where some high-school age kid blew his abusive father away with a shotgun and got a more-lenient sentence but he still ended-up serving 8 years I believe. They made the case into a made-for-TV movie. I think that the kid's name was Richard Jahnke but I am not sure.

What can we do to help?

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#261423 - 11/13/08 12:09 AM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: king tut]
king tut Offline
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Registered: 02/13/08
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Not to make any real point but as a matter of pondering lets cross out some things that don't apply to me and observe the outcome:

Originally Posted By: king tut

The father had full custody of the boy. The fathers work friend was renting a room. The boy had a spotless school record, never been in trouble, no child protection services ever involved, but police have responded to calls of domestic violence before. The fact that child protection services have never been involved means nothing. This is a situation where abuse is a real possibility. Maybe the boy was being abused, maybe the boy was upset about something. Abuse is probable in my opinion.

The fact is the boy had access to a .22-caliber rifle. I know in America you are big on the right to arms, but the fact is if i had access to a rifle when i was a kid there were times when i would have used it too. Kids think one step at a time, don't understand the consequences. When kids have access to guns, people die. It takes effort with any other weapon, with a gun all you have to do is pull the trigger, no battle, just victory, too dangerous.

I am not taking all the blame away from him, he is a murderer and he is clearly troubled (?) and he will need constant psychological treatment and observation now, his life wont be the same. I know the saying "guns don't kill people, people do" and so i wont argue that, but the fact that he had access to the gun is a matter of accountability also, premeditation is important, although maybe not so important in a pro-longed environment of abuse since it creates a dynamic, but access to a gun readily extinguishes (to an extent) aspects of premiditation (at least with a young child) eliminating the factors attached to this term that imply accountability and blame.




Now lets (try to) clarify why my arguement isn't one of the right to arms but is in fact fundamentlly relevant:

Take two people both with the desire to protect themselves by eliminating the enemy. One person has the means to eliminate the enemy easily so he does. The other person doesn't have the means to eliminate the enemy easily so he doesn't.

You may argue that anybody who really wants to kill somebody will find a way, but that's not true, the extent and means that somebody will take has a proportionality and psychology attached to it which has implications when analysing intent and reason and evaluating punishments and accountability. Availability and ease are therefore some factors in method and are therefore important according to this arguement. The mechanism is therefore important and says a lot about the case and it would be a neglect if this is not considered in the trial. As i outlined earlier, this is the thin line between two identical scenarios that predicts the fundamental outcome and is therefore key when analysing by contrast.

So the big difference here is one of them is now a murderer and the other isn't even though they are in the exact same position. IT IS A MATTER OF LOSING INFORMATION BY IGNORING THE MECHANISM, not making an arguement about an american law that i have never given much thought to in any case. If the boy had used an axe it would be a different analysis. A child with a gun has an analysis of its own, which can be expanded into all areas of the case when evaluating the mentality, nature and intention involved in this case and therfore goes a long way to developing an adequate reaction.

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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#261439 - 11/13/08 08:52 AM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: Trucker51]
onlyakid Offline
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Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1552
Loc: New Jersey
>What can we do to help?

Right now, nothing but I will keep you informed of anything that develops.

_________________________
"Being with people that understand you...Priceless"

"and i don't want the world to see me, cause i don't think that they'd understand"

"You don't know what love is...you just do as your told"

"My life has changed. What you take as a simple thing, is not so simple for me anymore"


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#262893 - 11/20/08 02:27 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: onlyakid]
jacobtk Offline
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Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
It's worth remembering that ten years ago two 7 and 8-year-old boys were accused of raping and murdering an 11-year-old girl. They confessed under the same circumstances as this boy did. The police claimed they had evidence proving the boys committed the crime. It turned out, however, that they were completely innocent. That might not be the case here, but cases like this do tend to end with the police having coerced a false confession. I wouldn't be surprised if they attempt to plant evidence.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#263136 - 11/22/08 11:30 AM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: jacobtk]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
New development

Quote:
(CNN) -- An Arizona prosecutor Friday asked to dismiss one of two murder charges against an 8-year-old boy suspected in the shooting deaths of his father and another man.
Vincent Romero and Tim Romans were found dead in Romero's home in St. Johns, Arizona.

Apache County Attorney Criss Candelaria filed a one-paragraph motion in juvenile court to drop the murder charge accusing the boy of killing his father.

The motion gave no reason for the request, saying only that "the state believes the interest of justice will be served by such a dismissal."


We'll see what happens. Personally, I don't see anything so far which suggests to me this kid was abused. I mean, it's certainly a possibility, but I think it's unfair to the deceased to start making such allegations when they can't respond or defend themselves - there ARE such things as non-abused kids who have hurt or killed people before; and besides, at this point we're not even 100% certain this kid had anything to do with these killings at all.



Edited by melliferal (11/22/08 11:31 AM)
_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#263165 - 11/22/08 02:15 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: melliferal]
onlyakid Offline
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Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1552
Loc: New Jersey
Could this have anything to do with the dismissal?

Court overturns 1991 murder conviction of Arizona teen who confessed; 8-year-old's interrogation is similar
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-juveniles21-2008nov21,0,3470165.story

A federal appeals court Thursday threw out the conviction of an Arizona man in the 1991 killings of nine worshipers at a Buddhist temple, ruling that police had coerced the then-17-year-old's confession by interrogating him for 12 hours without a lawyer or supportive adult present.

The decision could signal that Arizona authorities might face judicial censure for their treatment of an 8-year-old boy charged with two counts of murder earlier this month. The boy was subjected to interrogation with neither an attorney nor a relative at the videotaped session.

In the earlier case, Johnathan Doody was 17 when he was relentlessly questioned and was told that others had implicated him in the temple slayings, rendering the confession he gave "involuntary" and insufficient to sustain his murder conviction, a three-judge panel of the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled.

_________________________
"Being with people that understand you...Priceless"

"and i don't want the world to see me, cause i don't think that they'd understand"

"You don't know what love is...you just do as your told"

"My life has changed. What you take as a simple thing, is not so simple for me anymore"


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#263194 - 11/22/08 04:42 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: onlyakid]
Stretch73 Offline
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Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 336
Loc: Sea Isle City, NJ
Is there any evidence that this boy was molested or abused in some way?

Rich

_________________________
"I was so poor growing up, that if I wasn't born a boy, I wouldn't have had anything to play with." Rodney Dangerfield

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#263208 - 11/22/08 05:20 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: Stretch73]
jacobtk Offline
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Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
The police claim there isn't, however, they haven't actually interviewed the boy yet. They've only spoken to school officials and checked his medical records. The judge ordered that the boy be X-rayed to see if he has any broken bones. However, given that the prosecutors just dropped the charges against the boy for his father's death, chances are that something has been found.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#263269 - 11/22/08 08:53 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: jacobtk]
Stretch73 Offline
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Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 336
Loc: Sea Isle City, NJ
"The boy hasn't been interviewed yet?" Where the hell have you been, buddy? It's all over the news, the net, and papers about the boy's interview. I watched the replay on AOL.

Get your facts straight first!

Rich

_________________________
"I was so poor growing up, that if I wasn't born a boy, I wouldn't have had anything to play with." Rodney Dangerfield

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#263346 - 11/23/08 03:57 AM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: Stretch73]
king tut Offline
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Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2466
Loc: UK
"But later on the tape he said he shot his already wounded father "because he was suffering.""

the way he was saying suffering in the video was somehow strange, like it had a hidden meaning, the first thought that popped into my mind was he was using the word suffering as the only way that he knew how to describe (if indeed his father was abusing him) his fathers mental ilness. Sure the context apparently was that he shot him once and he didn't quite die, but since the video isn't continuous i cant be sure. But then i realised what it was, a boy that age would more likely use a simpler word such as hurting, but the boy used to go hunting with his dad all the time, and i bet his father had had to finish animals off before because they were "suffering", so it is a borrowed word, and that strange sound in his voice may indeed be because the context of the word in his mind comes from hunting, and maybe he did this with more awareness for whatever reasons than i would have previously thought.

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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#263377 - 11/23/08 08:49 AM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: king tut]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Hmmm. Not sure. I had no concept of the notion of "mental illness", or that people who succumb to it are "suffering", when I was 8 years old. I thought abusive people were mean or crazy, but even in the latter case my world was very black-and-white - bad people were bad, and that was it. I could see perhaps a much older teen doing it, but using "my father was suffering" as an abstract metaphor for "my father was abusing me" involves some redefinition and reworking of concepts that are themselves already beyond the intellectual capacity of an 8-year-old, in my opinion - they just don't think like that. If he thought what his father was doing to him was so bad that the only alternative was to kill him, I'm sure he would've found some way to say so more directly.

Allow me to offer my interpretation of the suffering comment. If we are to assume that it is a reference to a coup de grace, in a hunting situation, and if were are to assume that the boy's confession is genuine (i.e., he really was responsible for the shootings), then it seems to me it's very clearly simply an attempt at leniency. He obviously understands that killing people is wrong, because he lied to the cops at first, making up a whole story about finding the bodies, including such details as touching them, etc. When people are in a lying mindset, and are caught, their tendency is NOT to immediately start telling the truth, despite what many people seem to think. Their tendency is to lie again to make their first lie seem not so bad. Apparently the boy learned from his father while hunting that killing a wounded animal that is in pain is a morally good thing to do, so he added the "suffering" bit as a way of confessing, yet turning his confession into a proclamation of innocence - i.e., "Yes, I killed him, but it was a good thing to do, not a bad thing." THAT is something that's well within the intellectual capacity of an 8-year-old.

As an alternative, perhaps both of his stories are completely true. He said he had arrived home to find both of the men already shot. Then he said he shot his father, because the man was "suffering". I propose that both are factual - he found his father shot, but not dead; thus a coup de grace was a more direct corollary to hunting. That is also well within the capacity of an 8-year-old, as it doesn't involve connecting the physical pain of an animal from an obvious serious wound with the notion that mental illness comprises an invisible "wound" which would cause its host anguish and "suffering".

As for the dropped charge, I also don't think the prosecutor's office would ask to drop the charge based on a finding of evidence of abuse. They might reduce the charge to manslaughter because of it, or offer to reduce the charge in exchange for a guilty plea, but they would not just drop it. In fact, the only circumstances I can possibly think of that would cause them to simply drop the charge completely, would be either 1) finding direct evidence that the boy simply was not responsible for the fathers death - either the boy didn't shoot him at all, or the father was already dead when he did; or 2) gross negligence or violation of due process on the part of the agency that arrested and interrogated the boy, which the prosecutor thinks is blatant and bad enough to sink the case regardless of evidence. Both of these are certainly possible; however, given the recent public and quite vocal outcry from legal experts that the boy's interrogation was conducted wrongly (I think I remember hearing that the boy was not read his rights, or allowed a lawyer or parent to be present), I'm thinking that right now 2) is more likely.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#263398 - 11/23/08 11:11 AM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: Stretch73]
jacobtk Offline
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Posts: 527
Originally Posted By: Stretch73
"The boy hasn't been interviewed yet?" Where the hell have you been, buddy? It's all over the news, the net, and papers about the boy's interview. I watched the replay on AOL.


He was interviewed about the shootings, but not about whether he is a victim of abuse.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#263401 - 11/23/08 11:27 AM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: melliferal]
jacobtk Offline
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Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
Originally Posted By: melliferal
As for the dropped charge, I also don't think the prosecutor's office would ask to drop the charge based on a finding of evidence of abuse.


By something I meant counter-evidence, not that there was abuse. Reading what I wrote, I can see how you thought that.

I doubt that the prosecutors dropped the charge against the boy for the father's shooting based on the interrogation. The boy was forced to confess to both shootings, so if the interrogation is really a problem, then all charges should be dropped. The confession itself is not necessary if the prosecutors have evidence, which they claim to have. So the only remaining reason would be that they either have evidence that someone else committed the shootings, evidence that the boy's actions were mitigated or no evidence that the boy committed the shootings.

My guess is that it is either the first or the last. That would explain why they only dropped one charge against the boy, since the boy was interrogated and forced to confess only because the boarder's wife claimed she heard the boy call her husband downstairs. The greater question is why the wife did not come forward immediately (she waited until the funeral) and where the step-mother was during the shootings and why the police never bothered to ask anyone in the neighbor about a white car with back rimless tires.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#263464 - 11/23/08 05:06 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: jacobtk]
onlyakid Offline
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Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1552
Loc: New Jersey
Well the mother of the boy, says she was concerned about abuse and suspicious of the stepmother

From a NY times article

Whenever she spoke with her son, Ms. Bloomfield said, “I had to go through Tiffany,” a reference to his stepmother, Tiffany Romero. “Tiffany would always sit there while he talked to me on the phone, and after a while, he became more and more distant.”

She worried, she said, that the boy might be being abused although she had no proof.

Ms. Bloomfield said that after her son told her that his father and stepmother quarreled often, “I called Tiffany about that, and I think I got my son into trouble.”

“The next time I talked to him about it,” she added, “he said that Tiffany told him that ‘what happens in this house stays in this house.’ ”

_________________________
"Being with people that understand you...Priceless"

"and i don't want the world to see me, cause i don't think that they'd understand"

"You don't know what love is...you just do as your told"

"My life has changed. What you take as a simple thing, is not so simple for me anymore"


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#263587 - 11/24/08 01:36 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: onlyakid]
TJ jeff Offline
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Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 3368
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Quote:
‘what happens in this house stays in this house.’
WOW - that hit me upside the head like a 2x4 - I cannot even begin to count the number of times i heard that line in the house I grew up in (and - yes - I was abused in that house while growing up) - NO ONE says a line like that to a kid unless they DON'T want the kid to tell others of the things that are going on inside the house...

_________________________
Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

TJ's History

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#263608 - 11/24/08 03:21 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: TJ jeff]
Logan Offline
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Registered: 04/05/03
Posts: 1205
Loc: NY
yeah, I was told those EXACT words growing up.

I once told the school nurse how I got the bruises on my body and I didn't know that she was taking notes. Later that night, I received hell from my dad because the school nurse called him and said she had my verbal statements written down. He told me that social services was going to come and brake up the family and said that I had to take it all back. So the next day I went to school and as soon as I arrived, the nurse and another lady were there waiting for me and I recanted everything that I had said the day before about my brother beating me unconscious and laying on top of me putting his hand over my mouth and pinching my nose shut, while at the same time, sitting on my chest with his knees covering my arms so that I was unable to move of fight him off of me (true) and that I made it all up. That was his favorite position, BTW.
They knew that i was lying. It was obvious since I could not look them in the eye. They said that nothing would happen to my family and that I would be safe, but I knew that wasn't true either.
They let me go that day, but for the next couple weeks the principle would call me into his office and the nurse and that lady would be there and they would ask me all sorts of questions, it made me so nervous. At that point I did not trust them at all and was pretty sure they were doing this for their own agenda, so I acted like a piece of stone and looked them in the eyes while lying and say that nothing was going on at home.

But they asked me why I had said it in the first place. The truth was that I was anxiety stricken and to the fullest meaning of the word exhausted, I had not slept for a lot of days, so i just told the nurse that first time in a very casual, monotone way, and when she would ask a question I did not hesitate to answer because I was just so tired.
I later told them that I was angry at my parents and just wanted attention-my dad told me to say just that and so I did and eventually they stopped checking in with me.

The strange thing is that the physical abuse from my brother stopped for a while, for like atleast a month and my parents really paid attention and did not allow him to abuse me or the dog. But, eventually things went back to the way they were, and was not shocked in the least, I expected things to go back to the way they were sooner than that. At least it stopped for a little while, but it really did not matter because I was always expecting it anyway. at that point I accepted the way my life was. Kinda sad.

Later on in my early twenties, I guess a few years ago, when i was a Paramedic, I remember seeing kids in some of the homes that I was called to that were obviously being physical abused, I think because it happened to me I could pick it up, but I never had an axe to grind. I would call social services and report objectively what I witnessed: obvious signs: bilateral burns, cigarette burns, the kid acting very silent around the care taker and the care taker acting very clingy around the child, wanting to stay in VERY close proximity, but the child just looking sad and alone, stories about injuries that could not possibly explain the injuries. As a Paramedic, one is trained that it is their judgement call to report what they see, they don't have to. I always figured that it was a good idea to call, because who knows how many time another EMS worker was called to that particular house with similar complaints.--Maybe my call would be the 5th call that they would receive in a 6 month period and they would actually check out the case. I was always trying to avoid witch-hunts, but alot of the homes that I was called to were group or foster homes!

Sorry, I will shut up now, I did not want to hijack this post

Logan



Edited by Logan (11/24/08 03:42 PM)
_________________________
"Terrible thing to live in Fear"-Shawshank Redemption
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"Quite a thing to live in fear, this is what is means to be a slave"
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#263614 - 11/24/08 04:06 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: TJ jeff]
king tut Offline
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Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2466
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: TJ jeff
Quote:
‘what happens in this house stays in this house.’
WOW - that hit me upside the head like a 2x4 - I cannot even begin to count the number of times i heard that line in the house I grew up in (and - yes - I was abused in that house while growing up) - NO ONE says a line like that to a kid unless they DON'T want the kid to tell others of the things that are going on inside the house...


Actually those are the exact same words that would be used in my house too, but i assumed that is what all parents say to their kids, isn't that what everybody says? i've always thought that's just what everybody says, am i wrong?

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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#263622 - 11/24/08 04:27 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: king tut]
Logan Offline
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Registered: 04/05/03
Posts: 1205
Loc: NY
I know that if I have a family of my own, I will not say that, i will try to have good communication with every member of of the house and make sure that everybody can express them selves so they get the support that they need, I don't think one needs to hit kids to discipline them. i believe the purpose or a punishment is to teach a kid and change bad behaviors, and not to hurt them of be spiteful towards them.

Lewis, in some sense of the statement, i think a functional family can exist with first trying to solve problems in the household without spreading ones dirty laundry all over town, but at the same time, one must be aware that the problem is the dirty laundry it self and that it must be taken care of for the sake and stability of the family, for if it is allowed to fester, than one is not adequitly dealing with it and the family is no longer Functional. I hope that made sense. One statement that I can say for sure is that secrets and silence causes lots of pain down the road.

logan



Edited by Logan (11/24/08 04:28 PM)
_________________________
"Terrible thing to live in Fear"-Shawshank Redemption
WOR Alumnus Hope Springs 2009
"Quite a thing to live in fear, this is what is means to be a slave"
-Blade Runner

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#263677 - 11/24/08 11:19 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: Logan]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
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Loc: USA
I saw the workup of this on ABC's Nightline. They had videos of the interview of the boy. He is not big. He is not tough. He is not aggressive. He probably couldn't even handle a gun. He was easy to manipulate in the interview. He is being framed.

Allen = pufferfish whistle


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#263887 - 11/26/08 09:14 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: pufferfish]
jacobtk Offline
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Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
The prosecutors released more information about their investigation:

Quote:
An 8-year-old St. Johns boy charged with double-homicide may have kept a written record of spankings by his parents, vowing that the 1,000th would be his limit, according to a police records released Friday.

A search affidavit by Sgt. Lucas Rodriguez says the child "is believed to have made ledgers and or communicated in the form of writings about his intentions. (The boy) told a CPS . . . worker that when he reached one thousand spankings . . . that would be his limit. (The boy) kept a tally of his spankings on a piece of paper."


The boy's grandparents claimed that they weren't surprised that the boy was accused. They seemed to think that the boy was being mistreated or abused.

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Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#264094 - 11/27/08 09:24 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: jacobtk]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
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1,000 spankings? Assuming this kid was counting since he learned to write, and that he learned to write around age 6, that makes more than nine spankings a WEEK. I didn't like when my father spanked me (he used a belt); but jaysus, even HE only did it once every three or four weeks! What the motherf*ck?

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#264105 - 11/27/08 10:12 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: melliferal]
TJ jeff Offline
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I really feel for the boy - I don't know exactly how he figured his numbers - maybe he estimated a few years - or maybe he counted every single time he was hit in any way - but... - I do know from firsthand experience just how bad it tears you down inside to reach 1,000+ spankings - and yes, sometimes i did indeed get multiple spankings in 1 day...

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Who will cry for the little boy? - I will... - Antwone Fisher

Abuse happens in silence/isolation - Recovery happens only when that silence/isolation is broken...

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#276079 - 02/19/09 04:41 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: TJ jeff]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Just an update:

The kid has pleaded guilty to a single lesser charge, as part of a deal to avoid the two murder charges. Apparently he won't be going to jail, either.

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#276084 - 02/19/09 05:03 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: melliferal]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca


Hopefully they will provide help so this boy can come to terms with all that has happened to him.

Mike

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To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

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#276111 - 02/19/09 07:24 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: michael banks]
king tut Offline
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Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2466
Loc: UK
thanks for the update, murder is murder, but i hope this boy does get the help that he needs, and that the case is handled respectfully for the victims

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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#276120 - 02/19/09 07:52 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: king tut]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Lewis,

I doubt that an 8 year old has a real understanding of the concept of what murder is or the ramacations of his behavior. Murder is an extreme behavior for a adult much less a child. I wonder what really happened here and drove this child to choose such an extreme behavior.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#276135 - 02/19/09 08:28 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: michael banks]
king tut Offline
Member
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Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2466
Loc: UK
yeah, you are right, he wouldn't have been able to comprehend what murder is at that age

it becomes philosophical, in that case, concerning responsibility, and im afraid i am no philosopher

maybe when we are considering the future of individuals we shouldn't be so concerned about the idea of setting a precedent, but still, in the broader sense, what precedent would be set if we start allowing small children to literally get away with murder?

children kill children sometimes too, there was a case in the uk where two boys around 10 tortured and killed a boy around 5, i cant recall the exact details, the emotional dynamics are completely different in that story, right? but the same precedent would apply, and i dont think anybody would feel happy with that leniancy in that emotional dynamic, so we have to be careful here before automatically being leniant, just because the victims were adults

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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#276144 - 02/19/09 08:58 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: king tut]
jacobtk Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/08/03
Posts: 527
This was a really sad case. I have been following it closely, reading all the released evidence reports and police reports. Unfortunately, the state never had anything to prove the boy did it. They just managed to use a legal loophole to force the boy to plead out or face having the charges dropped and refiled when he was old enough to be charged as an adult. They found prints on the gun, but they did not even belong to the boy. There was also some things in the reports that pointed to other adults in the boy's life who had access to the home that day.

In an interview one of the boy's lawyers hinted that the boy may have been abused by his father and step-mother and may have been told by his step-mother, the police and detention staff that he was the murderer just to quickly close the case.

I just hope that the boy is not further damaged by the court-order therapy. Situations like that, particularly when they are forced and the child has to pass certain set points to avoid being punished, are perfect for further abuse and confusion of the boy.

_________________________
Every day I die again, and again I’m reborn/Every day I have to find the courage/To walk out into the street/With arms out/Got a love you can’t defeat/Neither down nor out/There’s nothing you have that I need/I can breathe/Breathe now - U2

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#276154 - 02/19/09 10:08 PM Re: 8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father: Abuse?? [Re: king tut]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Lewis,

I don't see that it ever be justified in seeking a capital or murder case against anyone ten years of age or younger. They are just not mature enought mentally to understand the conquences of their behaviors or actions.
In the end they are still children. I think more attention should be paid to their parents and how they children are being raised.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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