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#260181 - 11/05/08 02:10 PM I'm officially a second-class citizen....
Stephen_5 Offline
BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/00
Posts: 667
Loc: Northern California Foothills
California passed Proposition 8 yesterday that eliminated the right of same sex couples to marry there. So I'm officially a second-class citizen in CA and 27 other states. My partner and I were married at our home in CA in July. The fate of our marriage is up in the air right now.

My youngest daughter and son-in-law are Mormons. They have been put under intense pressure by their church leaders to contribute to and volunteer for the 'Yes on 8' campaign in CA. They are both very upset and disillusioned by the hypocrisy and out-right bigotry that they've seen and experienced.

I have nothing against religious institutions but they have no place in making laws and constitutional amendments. The courts will have to settle this one way or another. The courts are supposed to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

For those who think that a 'domestic partnership' is the same as civil marriage, I can say with absolute certainty that it isn't. There is minimal commitment with a domestic partnership; marriage means so much more. My partner and I have a certified marriage license; we are married and will be, in our eyes if in no one elses.

I'm pissed off.

Take good care of yourselves,

Steve


_________________________
I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007)

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#260190 - 11/05/08 02:59 PM Re: I'm officially a second-class citizen.... [Re: Stephen_5]
Rabbit Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/07/05
Posts: 91
Loc: San Francisco
Congratulations on your wedding.

I'm pissed off about Prop 8 too. The bay area is a small bubble of tolerance in an increasingly dogmatic world. I've been considering moving away, but this really makes me think even more about this precious bubble I live in, the stress of being marginalized, and how much of a warrior I want to be (again...)

I am confident that this issue will flip with the older, more conservative and religious, generation being replaced by a younger, more tolerant, one. I'm pissed that I have to wait another 4 or 8 years for California to be in the minority in providing equal rights under law for those of us who are attracted to members of the same sex.

In the meantime, I'll use my anger as fuel for my continued debauchery. Race you to social outcast-ville!!!

Randy

_________________________
Your love should never be offered to the mouth of a stranger

Only to someone who has the valor and daring to cut pieces of their soul off with a knife then weave them into a blanket to protect you

There are different wells within us, some fill with each good rain

Others are far, far too deep for that

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#260217 - 11/05/08 09:13 PM Re: I'm officially a second-class citizen.... [Re: Rabbit]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
Steve,

Thank you for this post. You bring the message I have been trying to relay here in the message boards the past few weeks, to reality. If you haven't read my thread it's

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=258873#Post258873

I am utterly ashamed of the Mormon church! I live in Utah, and I am now convinced that mormonism is nothing more than a pyramid scheme, and a huge corporation. The fact that they donated OVER $20 million to this cause is absurd, and I feel that should not have been permitted! What ever happened to the separation of church and state?! The Mormon church thinks that since it has so much money it can control our government, when is government going to step in and control this church from stepping where it should not step?! I feel as if the federal government needs to take action. There should be a monetary limit to which religious institutions may contribute to government related issues. No church should be allowed to give 20 fucking million dollars to send the message to our country that hate, bigotry, segregation, and discrimination remain core values that our country embraces!

As a gay man, and former Mormon myself, this sickens me! It absolutely makes me want to vomit! I can't believe our country remains so ignorant. This issue is not so much about gay marriage, this issue is about equal rights, and we are not being granted equal rights! I completely agree with you that a domestic partnership is NOT the same thing as a marriage. It is far far from it. This issue has caused me more emotional distress than any other recent issue. I had so much hope that California would set an example to our country and to surrounding states, that they would not adhere and bow down to the power of money from Mormons... I live in Utah, but this proposition has meant more to me than any other issue in this election.

I just learned that those against Prop 8 are taking this matter to the supreme court... again (which they should NOT have to do). I hope more than anything that the California Supreme Court will correct this and tell the people that discrimination is NOT acceptable. Furthermore, we cannot let any religious institution (especially the Mormons) to stick their fucking noses where it does NOT belong!

I voted for Obama, and I'm so proud he will be our new president. I have hope that under his administration gay rights will be acknowledged, and that this discrimination will no longer be tolerated.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU for sharing your story.

Allen


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#260226 - 11/05/08 10:08 PM Re: I'm officially a second-class citizen.... [Re: Roofus]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
Update...

I just heard on NPR that the Mormon Church contributed more than 50% of the $78 million dollars to fighting.

I'm sorry, but I can think of a lot of needy children in this country and this world that would have benefited more from that money. RELIGION??? My ASS.


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#260231 - 11/05/08 10:54 PM Re: I'm officially a second-class citizen.... [Re: Stephen_5]
mike5 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 170
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Originally Posted By: Stephen_5
So I'm officially a second-class citizen in CA and 27 other states.


I disagree Steve - it is not you who are a second class citizen. You and your husband are both first class in my book.

Mike


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#260285 - 11/06/08 11:25 AM Re: I'm officially a second-class citizen.... [Re: mike5]
cstjude Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Steve,

This is a slap in the face to all same sex couples everywhere and I share your outrage.

There is hope, however. See the Canadian Television Network's coverage of this issue and the interview with the first gay couple married in California's lawsuit to re-instate human rights to gay Californians. They make the essential point that never in American history has a group been written into a constitution and then written out!

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/abc/home/contentposting.aspx?isfa=1&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&showbyline=True&newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20081105%2fgaymarriage_couple_081106

This is a set back. There is every reason to hope that rational minds will prevail. Obama is president-elect and the first, I think, to mention gay Americans in his acceptance speech! The Proposition 8 issue will be challenged by Californians who cherish equal rights for all and understand the consequences of creating second class citizens at the whim and caprice of ignorant old men who claim to be arbiters of divine will!

It's a galling day, but not the end of this issue! Stay strong. There are hundreds of millions of Earth's citizens who acknowlege and respect your right to marry. California will come to its senses.

C.

_________________________
C.
Female, Friends & Family Forum Fan

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#260306 - 11/06/08 01:39 PM Re: I'm officially a second-class citizen.... [Re: cstjude]
wes-b Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 438
Loc: Western, Canada

Good morning Brothers and Sisters.

I am disappointed to see that prop 8 was carried, it pains me to see divisive acts in my world. I pray that all involved will work towards finding a common ground where forgiveness love and harmony can prevail.

What I pray for is that all will look to what is desired by the gay community and step away from the emotionally charged and divisive rhetoric.

It is my opinion that the core desire is to have the State recognize same sex couples equally with different sex couples.

A principle point of division that I see is with the use of the term marriage. This term is emotionally charged for some religious traditions and so long as it is out front of the debate the devotees of these traditions will fight recognition of same sex couples. I pray that the rhetoric change to ask directly for what is wanted. When it is asked for without the emotionally charged rhetoric all but the most intolerant resistance will dissolve.

yours in Love, Wes

_________________________
Happy to be a recovering survivor. :-)

Continuing to meet more of my fellows as I "Trudge the Road of Happy Destiny".

My Story, 1st pass

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#260334 - 11/06/08 04:59 PM Re: I'm officially a second-class citizen.... [Re: wes-b]
sunwolf Offline


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 225
Loc: Indiana
WHY SO MUCH HATE FOR LOVE???? Many praise violence amd hate love, man are engaged in a hateful spirit, many hate everyone that does not look like us or is like us...am sick of it all...its so good to love and so bad to hate...hate makes us sick...lets love our differences and let love live...we need to do better...


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#261332 - 11/12/08 03:10 PM Re: I'm officially a second-class citizen.... [Re: sunwolf]
Stephen_5 Offline
BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/00
Posts: 667
Loc: Northern California Foothills
Well, it's been over a week now; I'm still pissed off but now I'm doing something. There have been demonstrations in Sacramento at the Capitol and in other cities around California. We're not going away, back into the closet; we're going to keep up the fight to have the same rights, priveledges, freedoms and responsibilities as any other committed couple. It is so damned upsetting to see the 'Yes on 8' people on TV telling us to 'get over it, you lost'. The judiciary is supposed to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority and I still have faith that we will eventually prevail.

Take good care of yourselves,

Steve

_________________________
I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007)

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#261345 - 11/12/08 05:04 PM Re: I'm officially a second-class citizen.... [Re: Stephen_5]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
Steve, you're awesome! I have actively joined in your cause as well. Here in Utah we protested last Friday night around the Mormon temple and church office buildings. Saturday we are planning another protest focusing on state government.

We're right there with you!

Allen


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