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#258873 - 10/29/08 05:05 PM Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
I don't think it's any secret, I live in Utah and was raised by an extremely conservative, almost fundamentalist Mormon family. Since coming out (as a gay man) to my family, friends, and pretty much whoever about 8/9 years ago I have experienced the segregation and discrimination that "Zion" expresses not only toward gay men & women, but many other minorities as well. They do this in the name of "God." But thats a discussion all in and of itself.

Last night I was listening to NPR, and one of our local NPR programs "Radio West" was having a discussion regarding the Mormon involvement with California's Proposition 8. The Mormon church has contributed more than any other institution in America to fighting gay marriage in California (If I remember correctly over $8million). A while back they asked their membership to directly contribute as much money as each household could afford to independently contribute to the cause as well. I know this not only from the NPR program last night, but also from my own lovely family.

There were a couple of things that really troubled me last night in listening to this program, apart from the whole Prop 8 issue period. And I'd like to get input from others.

1-I am ashamed of the Mormon church for stepping into to political issue issue and contributing to it at this magnitude. The Mormon church as I see it (and I know it very well) is nothing more than a pyramid scheme that exploits it's membership. Now they are trying to control elements of government, not to mention destroy equal rights.

2-In the NPR discussion last night, the gentleman that was speaking said he'd have no problem with "gay" marriage if it was "innate." He went on to say that most gay men turned gay as a result of a homosexual experience as a child. I've been seeing more and more information that strongly suggests that homosexuality IS innate. Not to mention, I don't know a single gay man that woke up one morning and said.. "hmm, I think I'm going to start having sex with men so I can experience all the discrimination that goes along with it."

and 3 - So a couple of weeks ago, I spoke to my parents and asked them... "did you voluntarily and independently donate money to fight against gay marriage in California." They said "yes, as did two of your sisters and your brother." I don't know why, I was expecting that answer, but I felt betrayed. I guess I'm just wondering why it is that our country says "All men are created equal," when over and over again we prove that we are not. I most certainly do NOT want to marry at the moment, but I'd still like the right to, and the rights that go along with it.

Anyway, sorry to make this long. It's just some things that have been bugging me for some time. It'd be nice to hear what other people gay, bit, straight, and otherwise have to say about these issues.

Allen


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#258878 - 10/29/08 05:35 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Roofus]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
I'm guessing that my mother and any remaining members of her fundamentalist cult are also opposing Prop. 8 too. There just seems to be this wild fear by the fundamentalist crowd of the inclusion of everyone in the sanctity of the institution of marriage. Even my wife, who was raised Catholic but who isn't active in her faith, opposes gay marriage but does not oppose gay civil unions and the rights that would go along with such a legal standpoint. I have always tried to stick-up for the rights of everyone regardless of....and have always tried to act without prejudice in my thought.

I am not familiar with the specific language of CA Prop. 8, and would be one of the first to stand-up for anyone's rights as an American. How about trying for a law legalizing civil unions and protecting gay property, inheritance, and familial rights as a first step toward eventual normalacy. I realize that being denied the right to a marriage ceremony is discriminatory and hurtful. Unfortunately, we live in a democracy, and I'm guessing that the votes do not exist in many to most places to enact equal rights on this issue, despite Constitutional guarantees of equal protection under the law.

It isn't right, but this is just my take.

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#258879 - 10/29/08 05:44 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Roofus]
Niels Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 196
Gays can marry in California now? GEEZZZ haven't these people suffered enough????

_________________________
I live in my own little world - but that is OK! - They know me here.

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#258886 - 10/29/08 07:26 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Niels]
onlyakid Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1552
Loc: New Jersey
I'm not sure if its the same in the Mormon faith but the Catholic Church doesn't recognize marriages that are performed outside of the church (city hall, etc). So if this is true of the Mormon faith, then what do they care if gays are allowed to marry in California. They don't recognize the marriage anyway.

_________________________
"Being with people that understand you...Priceless"

"and i don't want the world to see me, cause i don't think that they'd understand"

"You don't know what love is...you just do as your told"

"My life has changed. What you take as a simple thing, is not so simple for me anymore"


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#259012 - 10/30/08 01:06 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: onlyakid]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Roofus,

I am a straight christian american man and i vote no on prop 8.
As Americans we are ALL guarantee certain rights under the constitution.
According to Webster's dictonary ALL- means "EVERYONE".
So if you are a American citizen what right does anyone have in trying to deny you what is yours by birth or choice.

I had to do some soul searching on this one but in the end I had to do what I felt was right.
Which is to stand up for the rights of ALL.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#259018 - 10/30/08 01:15 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: michael banks]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
Thanks for the input so far! I'm glad to see/hear your thoughts on this matter, as well as your support. I guess for me it's a touchy issue. Although I don't live in California, this issue has become very personal to me because I live in the heart of "Zion," I see and know how they work, and find it repulsive that they feel that they need to interfere in this manner.

It just makes me sick !


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#259073 - 10/30/08 05:04 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Roofus]
KENKEN Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 762
Loc: NOTHERN COLORADO
I heartily agree with every thing said. I was raised as a Lutheran and do continue to profess my Faith and attend church on a regular basis. I consider myself a Christian and believe that God made all people and loves all people, including gays. I am who I am and I can't change that. (my family thinks differently) I have heard thru. the grapevine that most of my family think I'm going to Hell!

I am not familiar with CA Prop.8, but I would be the first one to vote NO.

Ken

_________________________
I AM A GOOD PERSON, I AM A GOOD MAN

From the Movie: Antwone Fisher

***WOR ALUMNI SEQUOIA MARCH 2008***

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#259177 - 10/31/08 11:30 AM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: KENKEN]
melliferal Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Marriage is a religious institution. If a church wants to marry a gay couple, and the state refuses to allow them to do so, that is a violation of the First Amendment, plain and simple.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#259564 - 11/01/08 08:16 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: melliferal]
Niels Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 196
Great-great-great grandson of Brigham Young - former 49er football player with jersey number 8 and his family is actively against prop. 8.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=14&entry_id=32216

Prop. 8 and the First Presidencys anti-gay political involvement have caused a lot of divisions among Latter Day Saints. Thank God many are standing up against them and the blood they have on their GARMENTS from spreading their disgusting anti-gay propaganda. President Monson of the Mormon Inc. is leading the church astray. A true sign of a false prophet.

_________________________
I live in my own little world - but that is OK! - They know me here.

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#259700 - 11/02/08 02:35 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Niels]
cstjude Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
This angst over gay marriage mystifies me.

Companionship is a innate human need.
Society is a costruct of innnate human need.
Humans exhibit a wide variety of sexual orientations.
Society exists to accommodate the needs of us all.

Marriage is not a religious institution. Religion is not the final arbiter of human need. Marriage is a human institution. One human being committing their life to another with the full support of us all. We are monkeys taking a mate and expecting the clan to respect the choice.

Religious hocus pocus need not complicate the fulfillment of that primal human need. If you are a religious person, than fine. Worship whatever or whomever you like in the privacy of your heart. But keep it out of our schools, keep it out of our legislatures, keep it out of our public policy. It's your decision to stop thinking in the name of religion; to abrogate your responsibility to use your rational mind. Don't impose it on those of us who choose to question, to insist on actions that support human fulfillment rather than contribute to human suffering and division.

C.

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C.
Female, Friends & Family Forum Fan

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#259726 - 11/02/08 05:01 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: cstjude]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
Well said, thanks.


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#259728 - 11/02/08 05:03 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: cstjude]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
This is an up-date to what I have previously posted... and I have also posted it in the GLBT forum... but... since this thread is still alive... I figured what the hell I'd post it here too.

Originally Posted By: Roofus
I know I've already said said my peace regarding California's proposition 8, however... The latest statistics report that the Mormon church is singly the largest contributor supporting proposition 8 which will ban gay marriage in California. As of today, they have contributed over $20 million towards this campaign, and tonight they are sending hordes of their members to California from Utah to campaign during the last 48 hours of election time.

This is not an issue that involves just those living in California! Nor is it an issue that only involves Utah and Mormons! This affects every gay, bi, trans person in our country. This is an equal rights issue!

If California overturns the right for us to marry, it will send a message to surrounding states, the Mormon church, as well as others, that bigotry & discrimination is a value supported by our country! Not to mention, if the day comes that gay marriage is approached within your state, the California election results will certainly play a part in any states decision to pursue it.

I am asking any of you... all of you, if you have any family, friends or acquaintances that live within California, please call them, email, or contact them in whatever way possible to please ask them to VOTE NO to Proposition 8.



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#259818 - 11/03/08 12:20 AM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Roofus]
cstjude Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada


There's also a proposition on the Ballot on November 4th seeking to bar gay and lesbian couples from adopting or from being foster parents in Arkansas!

When are we going to accept that our humanity can't be pointed to on an anatomy chart or graphed on a sexual proclivity test?

C.

_________________________
C.
Female, Friends & Family Forum Fan

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#259919 - 11/03/08 03:45 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: cstjude]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
Thanks for pointing that out C! I hope Arkansas will also see the light of day, and grant us our equal rights. I have friends that live there, I will email them and ask them to vote against that proposition.

Allen


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#260075 - 11/04/08 06:02 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Roofus]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Allen,

From what I heard prop 8 is going to be real close vote here in California.
Which is surpising when look at the polls from just a few weeks ago.
We proably won,t know until late tonight or even tomorrow which way it goes.
I did what I could.

Mike



Edited by michael banks (11/04/08 06:05 PM)
_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#260148 - 11/05/08 11:23 AM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: michael banks]
Niels Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 196
It seems UnChristian fanatism won - the good is crying cry and the evil are laughing grin. Immigrate to Europe gay folks - California do not deserve you. I also encourage LDS Church members to stop paying tithing and use this money to support causes worth supporting and those in need they know. The LDS Church is spending 3 billion dollars on Shopping mall next to the Temple Square, claiming that this is what Jesus want. Think about it: they spent 30 times as much on a shopping mall in downtown SLC than they did on charity the last 25 years. Any claims that this church is lead by revelation from God and Christ have now been proven to be utterly false. You can choose to stick it out as incactive members, stopping to devote any more of your time, money and talents to support the Mormon Inc. Like I do. Or you can send your letter of resignation following these instructions:

Letter of resignation http://www.watchman.org/lds/instruct.htm

Send a clear message stating that the cause of your resignation is the First Presidencys political actions specifically supporting proposition 8.

It is a another sad day for America. The Constitution and the Pledge af Alligiance is nothing but hollow words : Liberty and justice for all?????????? These genocide for Jesus hatemongers just wiped their asses in the flag.

Lets hope that the political change the new elected president will bring will truly change America, so it becomes what it was meant to be: The United States, not red and blue states, not gays and straights, blacks or whites, but one people making a land of the free and home of the brave, and who remember the words of the founding fathers in the Declaration of Independance: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.











_________________________
I live in my own little world - but that is OK! - They know me here.

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#260218 - 11/05/08 09:16 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: cstjude]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
I am so sad, so sad... this is so emotional to me.

I am so sick, I am so sad! the Mormon Church has effectively influenced the population of California to send the message to the rest of our Nation that HATE, BIGOTRY, & DISCRIMINATION remain alive and thrive within our country.

I am so sad.


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#260357 - 11/06/08 09:24 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Roofus]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Allen,

Sometimes change just takes awhile so don't lose hope.

Look what happen on tuesday.
With the election of President Obama, we as Americans have finally started to heal from our long history of racial bigotry.
Prop 8 didn't win by much and look how much money the LDS and Focus on the Family pour into that prop to win it.

Remember what Martin Luther King said " We Shall Overcome" and I believe one day we as Americans shall put to rest all of our bigotries.

I am just one of many straight people who support gay people in their struggle For equal rights.

Mike


_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#260378 - 11/07/08 12:41 AM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: michael banks]
cstjude Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Who are we more angry and disappointed with? The Mormon Church for laying the path of bigotry before Californians or Californians for choosing that path?

I agree with Mike, we as a species have suffered a setback. Because when one of us is diminished in this way, it diminishes us all.

I heard something encouraging on Larry King tonight. John King was filling in and interviewing a Republican strategist (whose name escapes me now.) She said, "The Republican Party used to stand for small government, fiscal responsibility, and national defense. We wanted to keep government off our backs. Now the Party says, we want to be the government that tells you how to live your life, that wants to judge you, that wants into your bedroom. And that is just wrong."

Maybe there are enlightened elements who want to get social conservatism garbage out of the Republican party. They got in bed with the right wing and now it's cost them the White House and the Congress and the respect and participation of moderates and soft Democrats.

Their party is in turmoil all because of Carl Rove and his courting of the extreme religious right; so so-called Republican "base". It lasted less than a decade and now they realize real political debate and founding principles have been hijacked by petty-minded, ignorant, hurtful, stunted human beings (of the ilk of Governor Palin).

I certainly hope the Republicans come to their senses and marginalize this dangerous element of American society. As a concerned neighbour, Canadians want our US brothers and sisters to heal - they deserve better.

C.

_________________________
C.
Female, Friends & Family Forum Fan

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#260421 - 11/07/08 12:58 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: cstjude]
LandOfShadow Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
I too am feeling really sad about this.

_________________________
Et par le pouvoir d’un mot Je recommence ma vie, Je suis né pour te connaître, Pour te nommer
Liberté

And by the power of a single word I can begin my life again, I was born to know you, to name you
Freedom

Paul Eluard

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#260430 - 11/07/08 02:17 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: LandOfShadow]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
I cannot stop hurting regarding what has happened. This issue consumes so much of my energy. I take this as a personal attack as well as an attack against my community.

I do maintain hope, however, nor will I give up on trying to make a difference even at a small personal level. Yes Mike... "we shall overcome!" But at what cost? I do hope that Obama has space on his agenda for our equal rights issues.

Mike, thanks for supporting us! You are greatly loved!

[=cstjude]"The Republican Party used to stand for small government, fiscal responsibility, and national defense. We wanted to keep government off our backs. Now the Party says, we want to be the government that tells you how to live your life, that wants to judge you, that wants into your bedroom. And that is just wrong." [/quote]

Thank you for a great quote! Now if we can get them out of our bedrooms and grant us equal rights! That will be a miracle.

Tonight there are going to be protests in California and Utah. Here in Utah we have over 700 people organized and we will be marching around the Salt Lake Mormon Temple.

I have never believed much in protests... but dammit! I'm going to make my voice heard.

Thanks all for your support!
Allen


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#260821 - 11/09/08 08:22 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: cstjude]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
My sister has & father have responded the most negatively to my protest on Friday... here was my response to her.

Dear M,

I felt the need to send this letter to over 300 individuals even though I knew many would not be happy receiving it. I have been well aware of the church's stand on homosexuality since I was very young, and I have no intention of changing the doctrine. However, their direct and indirect involvement in continuing and preventing equal rights, specifically equal rights that are being restricted from me is an issue that I feel passionate about. Regardless any persons political and/or religious beliefs I want my voice heard in regards to this matter.

I want you to know that this protest was peaceful, and I felt honored to stand among 3,500 men, women, children of every nationality, religion, and sexual orientation all in support of equal rights for every man, woman and child in this country. I am not ashamed of that. In fact, I could not stop but think of Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights marches of the 60's. I would hope, that those who love me, regardless their personal beliefs about homosexuality, would acknowledge that I am not granted equality within this country. The church has a history of supporting inequality in the past, and yet they have adapted. I don't ask them to marry me and my partner in the temple, I merely ask them to grant me the right to marry, and grant me the rights that you and every other married person are granted because you are married. Did you know, that I am denied 1,800 civil liberties simply because of the fact that I am gay?

So, in a very short summary, these are the reasons I felt the need to send you this letter. I could certainly go on but will leave it at this. If you disagree with my stand on this issue, I respectfully accept your perspective. As always, my heart and my door will always remain open. But my voice will be heard.

Love Allen


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#260929 - 11/10/08 04:43 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Roofus]
Calanthe Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 109
Loc: California
Hi Allen,

I wanted to add voice to yours on this issue because one I am Gay, two I live in California and three, I used to be Mormon (pioneer heritage, returned missionary, and married in the temple the whole 9 yards as they say). I want to offer you my support for what you are doing and for what we are experiencing together.

I thrilled that you have participated in the protests and that they have been a positive experience for you. I like you agree that our voices must be heard. That regardless of what others may feel or believe about my sexuality or about my right to marry they do not have the right to take that away from me and the other members of my community. They may not agree with us but we should have the same rights as any other citizen of the US.

I am not suspired at the Mormon Church’s part in this. They are not a Church that historically supports civil or equal rights. Truthfully they actively worked against civil and equal rights for the majority of the time I was a member of their Church. I am saddened they would support a campaign run on so many lies and so much hate. But the Mormon Church seems to be more willing to adopt the philosophy of the ends justifying the means than they used to be.

I am sorry for the personal struggle you are facing with your family that is always painful. I put my family out of my life shortly after I came out. It was not easy and it was a painful process for me but it is an old wound. I think your letter was well written. I wish you the best in your efforts with your family. In my experience no matter the out come families are never easy.

I want you to know that I too participated in a protest against the Mormon Church here in my small town. We did not have the turnout that you did in SLC but we are a much smaller town. But it was a peaceful demonstration and we did our part and we will continue to do our part to end legalized discrimination in California and in our Nation.

Good Luck on the this Journey,

Scott

_________________________
You can't save your Ass and your Face at the same time. (Anonymous)

And given the choice I will save my ass first everytime(STC)

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#260978 - 11/10/08 09:31 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Calanthe]
cstjude Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Roofus,

Bravo. An excellent letter written with both assertiveness and compassion.

I'm glad you decided to march in the protest. It is healing and an outlet for your anger and hurt. You've kept the fact before us that this is not some abstract issue that is playing out in a distant state, but yet another instance the so-called pious using religion to perpetuate real human suffering.

Take heart, their influence will wane in post-Obama America. I see very reason for optimism.

I never do this....but...I've got a song for you that reminds us to "gamble everything for love." (all kinds of love) Next protest, teach it to eveyone and sing it outside the Temple! It grows on you...

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=3nyKT2mEPng
Ben Lee's Gamble Everything for Love

Here are the lyrics.

Gamble everything for love
Gamble everything
Put it in a place you keep what you need
You can gamble everything for love if you’re free
You gotta gamble everything for love

Baby are you cold are you cold
Baby I can wrap you up wrap you up in my love
If you wanna
You can gamble everything for love
If you wanna
You can gamble everything for love

Tell me are you’re feeling lost have you crossed
In the places that you never knew to get through
Tell me are you gonna cry all night
Tell me the truth and I’ll tell you the truth
If you gamble everything for love you’re gonna be alright
Alright

Make a list of the things you need
leave it empty
Except for number one Write love
Gamble everything
Keep it under lock and key
If you wanna
You can gamble everything for love

Love me with an open heart tell me anything
We can find a place to start
Gamble everything
We can set this thing apart
Coz we’re gonna gonna gamble everything for love

Tell me do you lose your way each day
Are there people you don't recognise, do they lie?
Tell me do I make you feel too real
Tell me the truth and I’ll tell you the truth
If you gamble everything for love you’re gonna be alright
Alright

Oooo you can go your own way
Oooo You can go your own way
Oooo you gotta go your own way
If you gamble everything for love
If you gamble everything for love
Gamble everything for love
Gamble everything
Put it in a place you keep what you need
You can gamble everything for love if your free
You gotta gamble everything for love

Tell me are you getting hurt
Is it worth it?
Tell me are the people strange do they change?
Tell me are you letting go, do you know?
I’ll tell you the truth if you tell me the truth
If you gamble everything for love
If you gamble everything for love
If you gamble everything for love you’re gonna be alright
Alright…
Alright…

C.

_________________________
C.
Female, Friends & Family Forum Fan

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#261048 - 11/11/08 08:11 AM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: cstjude]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Apparently the Mormon church is very good at ruffling feathers.

I remember hearing way back in high school, more than ten years ago, that the Mormon church had a policy of baptizing non-Mormons posthumously, often against the will of those individuals and their surviving families. One of the more disrespectful iterations of this occurred when the church got hold of lists of Jewish victims of the Holocaust, and began baptizing them. Families of Holocaust victims were outraged and demanded that they stop doing this; the Mormon church made the excuse that the system was mostly "automated", in a way, and that they would work to ensure that no more victims were baptized in this way. They were sticky on the point of deleting the baptism records of victims who had already undergone the process.

Today, so many years later, I read that it is still a point of contention - that the Mormons' agreement to end the posthumous baptism of Holocaust victims was never fulfilled on their end, and continues to this day.

Quote:
"They tell me, that my parents' Jewishness has not been altered but ... 100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?" Michel said Monday.

Wickman said the practice in no way impinges upon a person's "Jewishness, or their ethnicity, or their background."

Under the agreement with the Holocaust group, Mormons could enter the names of only those Holocaust victims to whom they were directly related. The church also agreed to remove the names of Holocaust victims already entered into its massive genealogical database.

Church spokesman Otterson said the church kept its part of the agreement by removing more than 260,000 names from the genealogical index.

But since 2005, ongoing monitoring of the database by an independent Salt Lake City-based researcher shows both resubmissions and new entries of names of Dutch, Greek, Polish and Italian Jews.

The researcher, Helen Radkey, who has done contract work for the Holocaust group, said her research suggests that lists of Holocaust victims obtained from camp and government records are being dumped into the database. She said she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate baptisms had been conducted for Holocaust victims as recently as July.


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#261085 - 11/11/08 01:28 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: melliferal]
Calanthe Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 109
Loc: California
Hi Allen,

I thought I would share this with you, maybe you have seen it and maybe you haven’t. But I wanted you to know the reaction to the passing of Prop 8 in California is far reaching and as shown by this commentary by Keith Olbermann, many people on this site and in other places we are not alone in our feeling or reactions to this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVUecPhQPqY

Enjoy,

Scott

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#261209 - 11/12/08 12:58 AM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Calanthe]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
Dear Scott, ctsjude, melliferal, and everyone else that is reading this thread...

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! I have absolutely loved reading what you are sending to me and sharing with the world. The literature, the songs, the videos are all absolutely phenomenal! I can't thank you enough!!! As I told everyone in my HC Sunday night... I choose you as my family. THANK YOU.

My sister sent me a rather heated email yesterday. She said... "whatever you and YOUR PEOPLE feel you are being denied is ridiculous. Why are you targeting the LDS church? I would like to know if you and YOUR KIND are planning on protesting other religious organizations that took part to support prop 8? Thank you for your reply. M. "

Here is my reply Was I too harsh?

HI M,

This is not an issue of rights that I "feel" I am denied, these are rights I am blatantly denied, it's that simple. As far as protesting other religious organizations, the answer is yes. We have already protested against the Roman Catholic church California diocese as well as multiple other evangelical institutions within California. The whole point of protesting here in Utah boils down to the fact that the LDS church crossed the line in the fact that church influenced state. The call, directly from the first presidency to all of it's member to contribute as much money and time they could afford to fight this cause, in addition to the fact that more than 50% of the $78 million raised came as direct and/or indirect contributions from the LDS church was simply wrong. The Pope did not address the entire catholic membership in such a manner, nor did other leaders of prominent religious institutions. That is why this became an LDS institutional issue.

I find it ironic that the LDS church has said clearly that they are not "anti gay" but pro marriage. Yet they do every thing in their power to prevent equal rights to their gay brothers and sisters. In fact, Elder L. Whitney Clayton stated on Nov 5 that the LDS church does not object to same sex civil unions or that the church "does not object to rights for same sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights." They are saying that they are inclined to equality... but then they continue to promote segregation and inequality. They refuse to grant me the rights that a married heterosexual couple would be granted. At this moment I am particularly interested in the issue of adoption. Why am I refused the right to be a parent? When I am equally as capable to do so as you, as Anna, as Nathan, Kathy.... as our own parents? My chosen partner and I are equally as capable to provide a loving and fulfilling home for children as you have or any other have done, and please don't try to argue that point. Furthermore, under the LDS terms of "equality" me and my partner would still be barred from benefitting from sharing a single health care insurance plan. As it stands, Mark and I pay over $1600/month in excess simply because of the fact that we have to maintain separate insurance plans. Finally, taxes.... need I say more. And thats just the tip of the iceberg.

So... yes... we have and we will protest other organizations. But our focus will remain on those organizations that cross the line when it comes to religion and politics. Had the LDS church merely stated their doctrine I doubt this would be an issue today. However directly participating in this campaign and calling it's members to do everything in their power (from money to time) to fight it placed them directly within the political arena in which they had no right to enter. The monetary contributions from the LDS church toward this campaign made this the most expensive campaign in US history apart from a presidential campaign. Again... had the church simply stated their doctrine and allowed members to make an individual educated decision to donate or not rather than giving them a mandate, it is highly doubtful that prop 8 would have passed.

As always, my heart and my door will always remain open. I know you have great love for the church, and I do not minimize that nor do I want to disrespect it. At the same time, I ask you... my family, to look inside your heart and examine what you truly believe. I do not ask you to change your religious principles, but I ask you... do we all not deserve equal rights? Do you truly find me so repulsive to think that me and my partner would not be able to provide a home for a child that would be equally as substantial and loving as yours? Do you truly think that the mere fact that I love another human being is wrong and that the extent of "love" is based on the ability (or might I cautiously add 'choice') to procreate? Perhaps your answer is simply hardline, that I am a Sodomite and do not deserve equality in this world or in God's eyes. That may be the case, however I would cautiously ask you to take a look deep inside as you consider those questions.

I stand firm behind my choice to protest. I feel honored to have stood and marched for equality. I have done something for me... I have done something for my country. I am not ashamed.

Love Allen


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#261213 - 11/12/08 01:17 AM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Roofus]
cstjude Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Well done Allen!

That is a well-informed, honest, passionate defense of your position. You're entirely right that the LDS church went beyond stating its doctrine...it mobilized an army!

Your sister's "why are you picking on the Mormons?" complaint sounds like the most pitiful of all excuses: "everyone else is doing it!" Give me a break.

With respect to the adoption issues, I find it ludicrous that state officials and religous zealots fight the so-called "dangers" or "inappropriateness" of gay parents or gay foster parents since there have ALWAYS been gay parents and foster parents. They simply refuse to be driven underground anymore. Do they think that gay parenting and foster parenting were invented in the 20th century? That every parent since the beginning of time (regardless of what conformity to society's pressures they were forced to endure in public) was straight?!!!

Obviously the LDS Church has determined that it is appropriate for their Church to interfere in matters of state? I wonder if they would tolerate such an attack as turnabout? Hmmmm.... what would happen if Utah voters (or any state for that matter) managed to put a proposition on the ballot that Religious doctrine (being antithetical to rational thought and a proven form of brainwashing) was to be banned from all schools and public discourse until an individual had reached the age of majority? No more religious schools! You would have to offer proof of age before entering any Church - like the legal drinking age! Ooops...sorry you're too young and impressionable to be handling anything as potentially dangerous as religion! Pray responsibly!

They'd flip! So they should keep their magic underwear out of the legislature lest the legsilature decide to take on their religious turf.

C.

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C.
Female, Friends & Family Forum Fan

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#261342 - 11/12/08 04:58 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: cstjude]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
Hey C, I loved your response! Just to follow up about adoption here in Utah. It's not only adoption, it's also fostering. They will not let a gay person foster a child... even if you're a single gay person.

I have a friend who's sister had a newborn. She was also deep into drugs, alcohol, and gangs. She realized she was in bad shape, the state ordered that her baby be moved either into a family home or a foster home. Her brother (my friend) was the only family member willing and able to raise a child. He's successful, he's educated, he's got his head on straight... he's also gay. The state refused to let the baby go to him because he's gay, and they sent the baby to a completely strange foster home. What a slap in the face.

I love your suggestion about the proposition for religious doctrine. We should do that. I was also thinking that we should establish our own religion and the fundamental principal is marriage. But our religion defines marriage as happening between two persons that love each other regardless of sex, race or nationality. Then could we not sue the government for discrimination against our religion for not allowing us to legally marry? LOL

Allen


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#261343 - 11/12/08 05:00 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: cstjude]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
Ohhh and BTW, we are staging another protest Saturday night. This one will be either at the state capital or simply down town on state street by the county government offices. Final location has not been determined.


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#261347 - 11/12/08 05:11 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Roofus]
cstjude Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
I hope the movement is growing and that the protests will get bigger! The story about the baby is appalling. Your friend must have been devastated.

I know it sounds awful to say, but I'm glad to be Canadian when I hear what is going on in Arkansas and Utah and California. We have our religious barking nutcases here too, but they tend not to have the same impact on social policy.

Sigh.

C

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C.
Female, Friends & Family Forum Fan

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#261471 - 11/13/08 02:36 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Roofus]
Stephen_5 Offline
BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/00
Posts: 667
Loc: Northern California Foothills
Allen,

Your response was reasoned and rational. Unfortunately reason usually doesn't enter into discussions about sex, politics or religion, all of which are in play here. I love my husband and he loves me. I cannot understand why that has any effect on anyone else. Do these narrow-minded judgemental people think that if their sons or daughters see me and my partner walking down the street, enjoying being with each other, happy and holding hands, it will turn them gay? What if they are gay? I think that there needs to be more gay role models. We're just a normal over sixty couple; we don't have rainbow flags or wear over-the-top clothes. What are they afraid of, that their children will grow up to be more accepting and open?

A lot of older voters voted for Proposition 8, a lot of younger voters voted against it; eventually, through attrition, gay Americans will be welcomed into society for who we are and what we contribute, not who we love.

Take good care of yourself,

Steve

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