Newest Members
lilac, The Wife Of, smusab, whiteflag, North101
12287 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
cyclebreaker (41), monkeybusinessinky (28), Tom Byrnes (55), wind west (30)
Who's Online
2 registered (CafeMan, Z0RN), 22 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12287 Members
73 Forums
63221 Topics
442083 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#260430 - 11/07/08 02:17 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: LandOfShadow]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
I cannot stop hurting regarding what has happened. This issue consumes so much of my energy. I take this as a personal attack as well as an attack against my community.

I do maintain hope, however, nor will I give up on trying to make a difference even at a small personal level. Yes Mike... "we shall overcome!" But at what cost? I do hope that Obama has space on his agenda for our equal rights issues.

Mike, thanks for supporting us! You are greatly loved!

[=cstjude]"The Republican Party used to stand for small government, fiscal responsibility, and national defense. We wanted to keep government off our backs. Now the Party says, we want to be the government that tells you how to live your life, that wants to judge you, that wants into your bedroom. And that is just wrong." [/quote]

Thank you for a great quote! Now if we can get them out of our bedrooms and grant us equal rights! That will be a miracle.

Tonight there are going to be protests in California and Utah. Here in Utah we have over 700 people organized and we will be marching around the Salt Lake Mormon Temple.

I have never believed much in protests... but dammit! I'm going to make my voice heard.

Thanks all for your support!
Allen


Top
#260821 - 11/09/08 08:22 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: cstjude]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
My sister has & father have responded the most negatively to my protest on Friday... here was my response to her.

Dear M,

I felt the need to send this letter to over 300 individuals even though I knew many would not be happy receiving it. I have been well aware of the church's stand on homosexuality since I was very young, and I have no intention of changing the doctrine. However, their direct and indirect involvement in continuing and preventing equal rights, specifically equal rights that are being restricted from me is an issue that I feel passionate about. Regardless any persons political and/or religious beliefs I want my voice heard in regards to this matter.

I want you to know that this protest was peaceful, and I felt honored to stand among 3,500 men, women, children of every nationality, religion, and sexual orientation all in support of equal rights for every man, woman and child in this country. I am not ashamed of that. In fact, I could not stop but think of Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights marches of the 60's. I would hope, that those who love me, regardless their personal beliefs about homosexuality, would acknowledge that I am not granted equality within this country. The church has a history of supporting inequality in the past, and yet they have adapted. I don't ask them to marry me and my partner in the temple, I merely ask them to grant me the right to marry, and grant me the rights that you and every other married person are granted because you are married. Did you know, that I am denied 1,800 civil liberties simply because of the fact that I am gay?

So, in a very short summary, these are the reasons I felt the need to send you this letter. I could certainly go on but will leave it at this. If you disagree with my stand on this issue, I respectfully accept your perspective. As always, my heart and my door will always remain open. But my voice will be heard.

Love Allen


Top
#260929 - 11/10/08 04:43 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Roofus]
Calanthe Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 109
Loc: California
Hi Allen,

I wanted to add voice to yours on this issue because one I am Gay, two I live in California and three, I used to be Mormon (pioneer heritage, returned missionary, and married in the temple the whole 9 yards as they say). I want to offer you my support for what you are doing and for what we are experiencing together.

I thrilled that you have participated in the protests and that they have been a positive experience for you. I like you agree that our voices must be heard. That regardless of what others may feel or believe about my sexuality or about my right to marry they do not have the right to take that away from me and the other members of my community. They may not agree with us but we should have the same rights as any other citizen of the US.

I am not suspired at the Mormon Church’s part in this. They are not a Church that historically supports civil or equal rights. Truthfully they actively worked against civil and equal rights for the majority of the time I was a member of their Church. I am saddened they would support a campaign run on so many lies and so much hate. But the Mormon Church seems to be more willing to adopt the philosophy of the ends justifying the means than they used to be.

I am sorry for the personal struggle you are facing with your family that is always painful. I put my family out of my life shortly after I came out. It was not easy and it was a painful process for me but it is an old wound. I think your letter was well written. I wish you the best in your efforts with your family. In my experience no matter the out come families are never easy.

I want you to know that I too participated in a protest against the Mormon Church here in my small town. We did not have the turnout that you did in SLC but we are a much smaller town. But it was a peaceful demonstration and we did our part and we will continue to do our part to end legalized discrimination in California and in our Nation.

Good Luck on the this Journey,

Scott

_________________________
You can't save your Ass and your Face at the same time. (Anonymous)

And given the choice I will save my ass first everytime(STC)

Top
#260978 - 11/10/08 09:31 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Calanthe]
cstjude Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Roofus,

Bravo. An excellent letter written with both assertiveness and compassion.

I'm glad you decided to march in the protest. It is healing and an outlet for your anger and hurt. You've kept the fact before us that this is not some abstract issue that is playing out in a distant state, but yet another instance the so-called pious using religion to perpetuate real human suffering.

Take heart, their influence will wane in post-Obama America. I see very reason for optimism.

I never do this....but...I've got a song for you that reminds us to "gamble everything for love." (all kinds of love) Next protest, teach it to eveyone and sing it outside the Temple! It grows on you...

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=3nyKT2mEPng
Ben Lee's Gamble Everything for Love

Here are the lyrics.

Gamble everything for love
Gamble everything
Put it in a place you keep what you need
You can gamble everything for love if you’re free
You gotta gamble everything for love

Baby are you cold are you cold
Baby I can wrap you up wrap you up in my love
If you wanna
You can gamble everything for love
If you wanna
You can gamble everything for love

Tell me are you’re feeling lost have you crossed
In the places that you never knew to get through
Tell me are you gonna cry all night
Tell me the truth and I’ll tell you the truth
If you gamble everything for love you’re gonna be alright
Alright

Make a list of the things you need
leave it empty
Except for number one Write love
Gamble everything
Keep it under lock and key
If you wanna
You can gamble everything for love

Love me with an open heart tell me anything
We can find a place to start
Gamble everything
We can set this thing apart
Coz we’re gonna gonna gamble everything for love

Tell me do you lose your way each day
Are there people you don't recognise, do they lie?
Tell me do I make you feel too real
Tell me the truth and I’ll tell you the truth
If you gamble everything for love you’re gonna be alright
Alright

Oooo you can go your own way
Oooo You can go your own way
Oooo you gotta go your own way
If you gamble everything for love
If you gamble everything for love
Gamble everything for love
Gamble everything
Put it in a place you keep what you need
You can gamble everything for love if your free
You gotta gamble everything for love

Tell me are you getting hurt
Is it worth it?
Tell me are the people strange do they change?
Tell me are you letting go, do you know?
I’ll tell you the truth if you tell me the truth
If you gamble everything for love
If you gamble everything for love
If you gamble everything for love you’re gonna be alright
Alright…
Alright…

C.

_________________________
C.
Female, Friends & Family Forum Fan

Top
#261048 - 11/11/08 08:11 AM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: cstjude]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Apparently the Mormon church is very good at ruffling feathers.

I remember hearing way back in high school, more than ten years ago, that the Mormon church had a policy of baptizing non-Mormons posthumously, often against the will of those individuals and their surviving families. One of the more disrespectful iterations of this occurred when the church got hold of lists of Jewish victims of the Holocaust, and began baptizing them. Families of Holocaust victims were outraged and demanded that they stop doing this; the Mormon church made the excuse that the system was mostly "automated", in a way, and that they would work to ensure that no more victims were baptized in this way. They were sticky on the point of deleting the baptism records of victims who had already undergone the process.

Today, so many years later, I read that it is still a point of contention - that the Mormons' agreement to end the posthumous baptism of Holocaust victims was never fulfilled on their end, and continues to this day.

Quote:
"They tell me, that my parents' Jewishness has not been altered but ... 100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?" Michel said Monday.

Wickman said the practice in no way impinges upon a person's "Jewishness, or their ethnicity, or their background."

Under the agreement with the Holocaust group, Mormons could enter the names of only those Holocaust victims to whom they were directly related. The church also agreed to remove the names of Holocaust victims already entered into its massive genealogical database.

Church spokesman Otterson said the church kept its part of the agreement by removing more than 260,000 names from the genealogical index.

But since 2005, ongoing monitoring of the database by an independent Salt Lake City-based researcher shows both resubmissions and new entries of names of Dutch, Greek, Polish and Italian Jews.

The researcher, Helen Radkey, who has done contract work for the Holocaust group, said her research suggests that lists of Holocaust victims obtained from camp and government records are being dumped into the database. She said she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate baptisms had been conducted for Holocaust victims as recently as July.


_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

Top
#261085 - 11/11/08 01:28 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: melliferal]
Calanthe Offline
New Here

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 109
Loc: California
Hi Allen,

I thought I would share this with you, maybe you have seen it and maybe you haven’t. But I wanted you to know the reaction to the passing of Prop 8 in California is far reaching and as shown by this commentary by Keith Olbermann, many people on this site and in other places we are not alone in our feeling or reactions to this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVUecPhQPqY

Enjoy,

Scott

_________________________
You can't save your Ass and your Face at the same time. (Anonymous)

And given the choice I will save my ass first everytime(STC)

Top
#261209 - 11/12/08 12:58 AM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Calanthe]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
Dear Scott, ctsjude, melliferal, and everyone else that is reading this thread...

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! I have absolutely loved reading what you are sending to me and sharing with the world. The literature, the songs, the videos are all absolutely phenomenal! I can't thank you enough!!! As I told everyone in my HC Sunday night... I choose you as my family. THANK YOU.

My sister sent me a rather heated email yesterday. She said... "whatever you and YOUR PEOPLE feel you are being denied is ridiculous. Why are you targeting the LDS church? I would like to know if you and YOUR KIND are planning on protesting other religious organizations that took part to support prop 8? Thank you for your reply. M. "

Here is my reply Was I too harsh?

HI M,

This is not an issue of rights that I "feel" I am denied, these are rights I am blatantly denied, it's that simple. As far as protesting other religious organizations, the answer is yes. We have already protested against the Roman Catholic church California diocese as well as multiple other evangelical institutions within California. The whole point of protesting here in Utah boils down to the fact that the LDS church crossed the line in the fact that church influenced state. The call, directly from the first presidency to all of it's member to contribute as much money and time they could afford to fight this cause, in addition to the fact that more than 50% of the $78 million raised came as direct and/or indirect contributions from the LDS church was simply wrong. The Pope did not address the entire catholic membership in such a manner, nor did other leaders of prominent religious institutions. That is why this became an LDS institutional issue.

I find it ironic that the LDS church has said clearly that they are not "anti gay" but pro marriage. Yet they do every thing in their power to prevent equal rights to their gay brothers and sisters. In fact, Elder L. Whitney Clayton stated on Nov 5 that the LDS church does not object to same sex civil unions or that the church "does not object to rights for same sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights." They are saying that they are inclined to equality... but then they continue to promote segregation and inequality. They refuse to grant me the rights that a married heterosexual couple would be granted. At this moment I am particularly interested in the issue of adoption. Why am I refused the right to be a parent? When I am equally as capable to do so as you, as Anna, as Nathan, Kathy.... as our own parents? My chosen partner and I are equally as capable to provide a loving and fulfilling home for children as you have or any other have done, and please don't try to argue that point. Furthermore, under the LDS terms of "equality" me and my partner would still be barred from benefitting from sharing a single health care insurance plan. As it stands, Mark and I pay over $1600/month in excess simply because of the fact that we have to maintain separate insurance plans. Finally, taxes.... need I say more. And thats just the tip of the iceberg.

So... yes... we have and we will protest other organizations. But our focus will remain on those organizations that cross the line when it comes to religion and politics. Had the LDS church merely stated their doctrine I doubt this would be an issue today. However directly participating in this campaign and calling it's members to do everything in their power (from money to time) to fight it placed them directly within the political arena in which they had no right to enter. The monetary contributions from the LDS church toward this campaign made this the most expensive campaign in US history apart from a presidential campaign. Again... had the church simply stated their doctrine and allowed members to make an individual educated decision to donate or not rather than giving them a mandate, it is highly doubtful that prop 8 would have passed.

As always, my heart and my door will always remain open. I know you have great love for the church, and I do not minimize that nor do I want to disrespect it. At the same time, I ask you... my family, to look inside your heart and examine what you truly believe. I do not ask you to change your religious principles, but I ask you... do we all not deserve equal rights? Do you truly find me so repulsive to think that me and my partner would not be able to provide a home for a child that would be equally as substantial and loving as yours? Do you truly think that the mere fact that I love another human being is wrong and that the extent of "love" is based on the ability (or might I cautiously add 'choice') to procreate? Perhaps your answer is simply hardline, that I am a Sodomite and do not deserve equality in this world or in God's eyes. That may be the case, however I would cautiously ask you to take a look deep inside as you consider those questions.

I stand firm behind my choice to protest. I feel honored to have stood and marched for equality. I have done something for me... I have done something for my country. I am not ashamed.

Love Allen


Top
#261213 - 11/12/08 01:17 AM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: Roofus]
cstjude Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Well done Allen!

That is a well-informed, honest, passionate defense of your position. You're entirely right that the LDS church went beyond stating its doctrine...it mobilized an army!

Your sister's "why are you picking on the Mormons?" complaint sounds like the most pitiful of all excuses: "everyone else is doing it!" Give me a break.

With respect to the adoption issues, I find it ludicrous that state officials and religous zealots fight the so-called "dangers" or "inappropriateness" of gay parents or gay foster parents since there have ALWAYS been gay parents and foster parents. They simply refuse to be driven underground anymore. Do they think that gay parenting and foster parenting were invented in the 20th century? That every parent since the beginning of time (regardless of what conformity to society's pressures they were forced to endure in public) was straight?!!!

Obviously the LDS Church has determined that it is appropriate for their Church to interfere in matters of state? I wonder if they would tolerate such an attack as turnabout? Hmmmm.... what would happen if Utah voters (or any state for that matter) managed to put a proposition on the ballot that Religious doctrine (being antithetical to rational thought and a proven form of brainwashing) was to be banned from all schools and public discourse until an individual had reached the age of majority? No more religious schools! You would have to offer proof of age before entering any Church - like the legal drinking age! Ooops...sorry you're too young and impressionable to be handling anything as potentially dangerous as religion! Pray responsibly!

They'd flip! So they should keep their magic underwear out of the legislature lest the legsilature decide to take on their religious turf.

C.

_________________________
C.
Female, Friends & Family Forum Fan

Top
#261342 - 11/12/08 04:58 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: cstjude]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
Hey C, I loved your response! Just to follow up about adoption here in Utah. It's not only adoption, it's also fostering. They will not let a gay person foster a child... even if you're a single gay person.

I have a friend who's sister had a newborn. She was also deep into drugs, alcohol, and gangs. She realized she was in bad shape, the state ordered that her baby be moved either into a family home or a foster home. Her brother (my friend) was the only family member willing and able to raise a child. He's successful, he's educated, he's got his head on straight... he's also gay. The state refused to let the baby go to him because he's gay, and they sent the baby to a completely strange foster home. What a slap in the face.

I love your suggestion about the proposition for religious doctrine. We should do that. I was also thinking that we should establish our own religion and the fundamental principal is marriage. But our religion defines marriage as happening between two persons that love each other regardless of sex, race or nationality. Then could we not sue the government for discrimination against our religion for not allowing us to legally marry? LOL

Allen


Top
#261343 - 11/12/08 05:00 PM Re: Utah, Mormons, & Prop 8 [Re: cstjude]
Roofus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 233
Loc: Utah
Ohhh and BTW, we are staging another protest Saturday night. This one will be either at the state capital or simply down town on state street by the county government offices. Final location has not been determined.


Top
Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >


Moderator:  ModTeam, TJ jeff 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.