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#257998 - 10/26/08 04:46 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: AndyJB2005]
WillT Offline


Registered: 10/26/08
Posts: 3
Loc: near Hudson WI
Andy,

Thanks for mentioning the book "Not Monsters...". I have read it.

Reading through this thread scared me. I understand the hate and anger... but what does that accomplish?

The most important thing is to STOP THE ABUSE. Stop it before it happens. Stop it as soon as possible.

I would NEVER condone sexual abuse, but the extreme hate for those who abuse (in whatever capacity) is so strong that I think it prevents them from getting help.

I was abused by another older child when I was young. It took me decades to admit it was abuse. He was probably 5 or 6 years old. I am ANGRY that my life has been ripped from me as a "normal" man. ...but I am also angry that my perp had to have learned what he did to me from someone. I am even angry that his father committed suicide.

I am not a professional, but I would think that other survivors struggle with relationships and sexuality. Have survivors done things in relationships and sex that they regret and that potentially hurt another person? How difficult is it to forgive your own actions when you have acted out against yourself or another? Would it help by telling you how terrible you are?

Offenders need to be held accountable for their actions. In a strange way I think the best way to prevent abuse is to not only help those of us who have been hurt after the abuse, but to also help stop the abuse at the sources.. the abusers and those at risk of becoming abusers.

(I fully expect to not be understood here and be flamed. I already feel beat down and worn out.)


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#258007 - 10/26/08 08:33 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: WillT]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
.



Edited by ttoon (11/16/08 11:01 AM)
_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#258039 - 10/26/08 12:21 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: WillT]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
I didn't start out in anger, folks just don't understand me. I put things in a way where you simply remove the threat, treat the threat, keep the threat either under constant surveilance or plainly disallow the threat from being around it's prey. In my mind this is not far fetched or irrational and it doesn't happen to be a bad idea to people who are in my life.

I am the direct result of my abusers in how I have to try and live through all that they did and are able to do to me now. If I have to go through what I go through it should be nothing for them to live by rules that take less effort and do little to interfere with their lives.

I assume that the guys who come to this site never want a kid to hurt like they have been hurt.

Everything I said was prevention and help for both sides. Hardly anybody seemed to see that I was really just taking out the kid factor, "they" can live in a world of adults.... is that really so hard to see?

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#258081 - 10/26/08 03:05 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: ttoon]
WillT Offline


Registered: 10/26/08
Posts: 3
Loc: near Hudson WI
Hi Dave, first: thanks for the response. Right now I am not doing well. I am ridden with shame and guilt.

Originally Posted By: ttoon
The question to ask...might be, in order to truly understand the anger...is to ask any sexual predator, "Are you being persecuted for the exercise of your sexuality or, is it because you have destroyed this little boy's life?"

What do you think is the most likely response. The most truthful reply?


The anger is from destroying someone's life. But that is the same (maybe just similar) anger that I would think most offenders have for themselves as well. Offenders live a life of self hatred. Those who have only been victims need healing and feel shame. They can here, "it's not your fault" and.. at some level believe it potentially. An offender cannot here those words and believe it. (Please know I am not in ANY way trying to minimize the harm done to victims.. and their families).

As a survivor, I know how much my life has been effected and I don't like it. I have trouble with male friendships... not all, luckily, but with the ones that I am closest with. Healthy boundaries are difficult. I don't like sharing that I was abused... somewhat because of the stigma that all survivors may be perpetrators. And since perpetrators are seen worse than murderers, I can understand how so many would remain silent and not seek help.

I wish this crisis would be talked about more (male sexual abuse). I wish we could foster healthy male relationships. Masculinity is not bad. We are SUPPOSED to be men. Male relationships are SUPPOSED to be different from women. I'm just afraid that there are so few male role models for other men... let alone those who can talk about this. I want to do everything in my power that my son and daughter NEVER have to go what we've gone through. ...right now they may be too young, but I want to share what I've learned with them someday. I want to share that I was abused, that my mom was abused by someone else, that although my grandpa never laid a hand on me that he was convicted. I so want my voice to be heard.


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#258087 - 10/26/08 03:24 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: WillT]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: WillT
The anger is from destroying someone's life. But that is the same (maybe just similar) anger that I would think most offenders have for themselves as well. Offenders live a life of self hatred. Those who have only been victims need healing and feel shame. They can here, "it's not your fault" and.. at some level believe it potentially. An offender cannot here those words and believe it. (Please know I am not in ANY way trying to minimize the harm done to victims.. and their families)

[...]

And since perpetrators are seen worse than murderers, I can understand how so many would remain silent and not seek help.


I couldn't agree more with what you've said here -- and you're right, offenders do hate themselves to astronomical degrees. I could add, too, that the shame and self-hatred they feel simply fuels their acting out urges. It does several other things, too. For example, it decreases the chances they find/stick with therapy and/or other treatment; lowers the chances of them seeking and keeping adult friends; lessens the motivation of getting permanent full-time working situations, and other things that help them move forward.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: it is in our best interest to hate their crimes but not them. It is hurting our cause (the protection of children) to demonize and stereotype these people, keeping them down in the mud.

The best way to make sure they DON'T reoffend is to try and help take away their shame and hatred -- the fuel of their pedophilia.

I say again...we can and SHOULD despise their crime, and I encourage people to do that if they need to do that. But we MUST be realistic and logical, and not emotional, in our implementations if we hope to keep as many from abusing as possible.



_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#258088 - 10/26/08 03:25 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: ttoon]
WillT Offline


Registered: 10/26/08
Posts: 3
Loc: near Hudson WI
Originally Posted By: ttoon
However we might look at it, the decision to abuse is a choice that is made. It would be hard to argue against the fact that sexual predators require a huge amount of rationalization to move from one victim to the next. But, to Quote Richard Hoffman: "...simply because they cannot distinguish between love and hate does not mean that we, who require less denial and fewer untruths to get on with our lives, are similarly incapacitated."


I know for me when I have crossed boundaries with friends that I did not use good rational. I believed the lie that there was nothing wrong in "this" specific case. For me to keep boundaries, i constantly remind myself to not believe the lies.


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#258117 - 10/26/08 05:12 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: WillT]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
.



Edited by ttoon (11/16/08 10:59 AM)
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#258218 - 10/27/08 12:55 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: ttoon]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
What they do IS NOT "ACTING OUT"!
Not all predators hate themselves, ask NAMBLA.

Give them a sterile place, educate them and everything else, AWAY FROM CHILDREN. Why do kids have to be a part of their lives??? A validation to their "hard work" of "recovery"?

"...take away their shame and hatred -- the fuel of their pedophilia."

They don't need to feel ashamed??? Why do they not need to feel ashamed of their thoughts and actions, and why should they not be taught to hate the things they've done??? That don't "fuel" what they do. They do what they do because they either like it, they want it, or just because they can. Kids ain't cigarettes that they can work on trying to quit. If they did not want to do it they would do something about it prior to. THERE ARE PLACES FOR THEM TO GO, and I've asked that they post those resources on the website before because of other things. Besides the fact that they can go to ANY therapist to which it is the choice of the therapist to work with them. They have nothing to fear if they are not a threat. Terms like "relapse", "mistake", "acting out", "recovery", etc are so misused and deminishing to the things that they've inflicted on others. I sure take it personal, maybe because of what I have to constantly go through. It's belittling, my life is fact whether anybody believes what happens to me or not. It's witness and I'm not a fictional character.

Why is it so hard to say that it is wrong? take true responsibility? that it is not tolerated period? and that it is not something where you get chances to correct after the fact? Why, why, why, why, WHY????????

Most of what I've said throughout this whole subject hasn't been "emotional" or out of anger, it IS logical and realistic. You see a detrimental problem, why not deal with it. You can't experiment with a cancer without risking the lives of those in the danger. Nuke the cancer, save the life.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#258225 - 10/27/08 01:55 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Yes, offenders are human, too. That gives other humans, like me, the right to judge them based upon their actions.

From the very beginning, I've always felt educating potential victims - that is, children, all children everywhere - about how to identify grooming behavior and avoid abusive situations would be both cheaper and vastly, overwhelmingly more effective than trying to talk offenders into stopping. If you "rehabilitate" an offender, you have just "saved" two or three kids from being abused BY THAT OFFENDER. Spend the same amount of money on a cheap but informative and effective education program, and you've saved a thousand kids from being abused not only by THAT offender, but by ANY offender, ostensibly. If you feel there's enough money to do both, fine - but chances are, there isn't.

Although the public seems to be fixated on the type of abuser that suddenly and violently grabs kids from the shadows and rapes them, we all know that kind of abuser is really quite rare. The majority of abusers are people who have groomed children, their parents, organizational leadership, etc. I consider all of it part of the grooming process. Whether you do or not, the point is, abuse is 10% physical and 90% mental. Their tool is deception. They're liars, by definition.

Your convicted sex offender who is undergoing counseling is there either because it was ordered by a judge, or because he thinks (or knows) that being there may lead to a reduced sentence or lesser restrictions down the road. In either case, the desired result will not be achieved unless the offender indicates remorse, and expresses a wish to be helped, and basically does whatever is necessary to make it seem as if the treatment is working. If that means garnering sympathy by concocting a history of sexual abuse, they will do that as well. How can you look at a person who has lied to a child, perhaps many children, lied to the child's parents, lied to their own family, lied to whomever else might be directly involved in the victim's well-being in some capacity, lied to a court and the rest of the population by pleading not-guilty (or waiting for a bargain before pleading guilty), and think that when this person shows up in your office, they're magically going to be truthful and forthright with you? Because they insist they're being honest?

Really?

Of COURSE they're "remorseful". Of COURSE they "know it was wrong". Of COURSE they want to be helped so they'll never do it again. What sort of prospect of getting out early do they have if they tell you that they think pedophilia is a completely natural "sexual orientation" that is unfairly repressed in modern society, that they know their victim enjoyed it, that they would do it again in a heartbeat, and that the only thing they "regret" is getting caught and having to sit in your office and pretend to care about what you're saying to them?

Ask yourself, if you've dealt with a lot of offenders - how many of them have told you that they indeed feel pedophilia should be accepted and abuse should be decriminalized? Pedophiles express such sentiments in VAST numbers on the internet. It's a statistical certainty that at least SOME of your clients MUST feel this way. How many have willingly told you they do? One...two? None? Out of how many patients...a hundred? Here's a hint: some of them folks are lying to you. Which ones? If they all sing the same song, how can you tell? What goes through your mind when you sign off on their case file as "showing improvement" if you KNOW there's at least half a chance that this person may be feeding you a fantasy - grooming you, in a sense?

If you focus on pedophiles who do not offend - who try to get help before anything happens - that is awesome. I will even admit to being capable of respecting a pedophile who does something like that, because I judge people by what they DO. Someone without a record taking it upon themselves to declare themselves a pedophile and get help...THAT takes courage, and honesty. That is showing the exact same consideration and caring for potential victims that offenders so willfully disregard. That makes them better people.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#258260 - 10/27/08 08:10 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: melliferal]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
.



Edited by ttoon (11/16/08 10:54 AM)
_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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