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#255693 - 10/16/08 09:36 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: AndyJB2005]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
USMC's "facts" are all based on his opinion and no evidence, scientific or otherwise. Even the department of justice admits that the recidivism rate is very low for sex offenders.


First off I don't appreciate the attack, I AM EVIDENCE as with those of "us" who have come forward.

I'll use the "otherwise" for now. The best proof I have is that of my life and the lives of the gentlemen on this website. All of the other "proof" is secondary, not irrelevant but secondary because statistics are speculative. They do not have a control subject when it comes to child predators.

Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the recidivism rate of sex offenders is "5.3 percent of sex offenders (men who had committed rape or sexual assault) were rearrested for another sex crime..." (1)

Does 5.3 percent (or 94.7 percent that never go on to abuse again) warrant special "camps" for 100 percent of them?


Really? That just says that within that 94.7 percent there is another lost statistic because you can not honestly determine how many you say never go on to hurt another kid again. You go off on tangents to include other kinds of criminals in hopes to make light of what you want everyone to believe. This statistic is based on those who are caught. Find a statistic on how many child molesters never get caught, it's near impossible to make up a number and give a true account. Not one of my 40 plus perps were ever caught to my knowledge. They didn't have a problem repeating things on me and most likely other victims. Can you tell me how all of them fit within your analysis of the information you've gained? Look for a statistic that states how many victims each child predator has.... can't find a true one of that either.

Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
And why not put other criminals into these camps because they also may hurt others after their arrest? Who decides what criminal goes and what doesn't? Where does it stop? Where is the line?


I haven't talked about "camps", I've been talking about places where they are unmistakably away from causing harm to another child to include never seeing a child again. I've already stated that it is an extreme but hey, that guarantees the safety from them. They can live their lives, away from kids. Tell me? What's wrong with that? Fit's the crime. I've also kept the subject to child predators, not general rapist, statutory stuff, or other criminal offenses. You have a thing for leiniency and acceptance to their offenses that I do not understand. Prove one of "them" being completely "cured".... remember you'd have to do that without subjecting children to test the waters. Don't know how you're going to provide evidence to that argument.

Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
Is the fellow who committed his offense 20 years ago, served his time, completed years of treatment and is offense-free for all those years deserving of The Camp?


Yes, that person should be watched for the rest of their natural life. I am not willing to leave that person to his own recognizance in anticipation that they are somehow "cured". All those accomplishments somehow guarantee the sobriety of this individual? How? One of these individuals who sincerely is remorseful for this stuff would be willing to accept consequences of their actions. We carry life sentences for the things that "they" have done. Why should they not have the burden of being reminded and repremanded for what they have done as long as we are? This has nothing to do with forgiveness..... it's cause and effect.

Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
And the reality is that all of this doesn't only effect the sex offender, but also his or her family...and especially his or her kids, if he has them. They are subject to a lot violence and hate from the community because of what their parent did, and possible injury because your sentiments fuel the rage even more and of course gives them moral authority.


Whoever that person is should not have put their family in danger but I only get part of the story so I will say the first things that come to mind on that. Should he have been back at home with, uhm, children? You call that protecting his kids in the first place?

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255707 - 10/17/08 12:01 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
LN3(SS) Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 486
Loc: MD
I am REALLY not appreciating the attacks on Andy's character. How about we knock it off?

As survivors, we should be supportive of each other while being able to express disagreement in a calm way with friendship toward everyone.

Personally, I lean more towards Andy's beliefs. I don't agree all the way, but he does make some valid points. I can also see where the best balance has been struck in the current registration and notification laws.

Don't get me wrong, I do HATE my predator. I have said in other threads what my greatest wish is for him. But since he is living among us, I would hope that if he is ever charged and convicted of a sex offense, that he would be monitored closely.

Brian

_________________________
"When we go into battle, I will be the first to set foot on the field, and I will be the last to step off, and I will leave no one behind. Dead, or alive, we will all come home together." LTG Hal Moore, Jr., USA (Ret.)

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#255711 - 10/17/08 12:34 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: LN3(SS)]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
What if laws were based on emotion?

For example: I hate some alcoholics, they made parts of my life very sad, so I should be able put anyone away forever for drinking -- because, hey, I hate alcoholism.

Another: I get angry at guys in fancy cars that nearly hit me while I'm crossing an intersection because they are talking on the cell phone. They deserve my wrath just because I say so.

I'm glad angry mobs don't make laws in our society.

I'm afraid of a world without redemption. frown

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#255719 - 10/17/08 01:49 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: AndyJB2005]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Alcoholics who hurt someone should never be allowed to drink. Simple. Not because you dislike them but because they committed a crime. Once again you're jumping around the issue, stick to the problem of predators.

Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
USMC's "facts" are all based on his opinion and no evidence....

And who attacked who's character???

Because I can say things with out compromise, I'm an enemy? Because I'm non-tolerant, I'm a raging fool? Tolerance is what feeds current society's way of dealing with problems like this and either people are afraid of change or are afraid of what will be percieved for doing the right thing. I have other things to fear and those aren't included.

I give you something that has guaranteed results, that's attainable, not real far fetched. I live by a standard of living and don't find it very hard and that is aside from all of the problems my perps inherently put on my shoulders. The assumption that everything is out of anger on this site and around this subject really irritates me. I would say if I am angry like I have before, my emotions haven't had much to do with this aside from the doubt of my credibility. I'm not the one that made anything personal.

If you want to identify me as your angry little mob that's a problem you need to deal with because it is your opinion of me. I am not angry yet.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255726 - 10/17/08 02:33 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Originally Posted By: usmc97

And who attacked who's character???



Originally Posted By: usmc97


You have a thing for leiniency and acceptance to their offenses that I do not understand.



Keep in mind that, for a survivor, a statement like that
can sound very much like an implication that the person you are talking about is himself a pervert of some kind. I know it might not seem implicated in such a statement but we survivors are sensitive about things like this and I know that for me, the suggestion that I condone, accept or otherwise fail in some way to show all appropriate condemnation of sex abuse feels very much like such an accusation.

I think it's crucial in a discussion like this that we all keep in mind that we are talking to other survivors and do our best to keep it from becoming personal.



_________________________
My Story
My Art

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#255732 - 10/17/08 03:39 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
That was after being called out to which I answered the iquiries of me. I DID NOT mean to imply any perversion and I don't see it in the words I used. The meaning in it is supposed to be that of him trying to both recognize the wrong doing of perps and defending their place in society. It's contradictory, to say someone "hurts" a child but deserves a chance to carry on with their life free and clear after some time period. Adding that a predator can eventually be safe with no way to prove it, atleast not without endangering children in the process.

I honestly don't understand a lot of the statements any other way throughout this whole debate. A call for second chances, unproved theories of redemption, misleading factoids, excuses, desperate hope to humanize... all of which to give consideration to the rights and feelings of individuals who have ruined lives? There's something deeper that is trying to be said, there's a reason for wanting signs that predators can change. I'm not about to say it's okay to risk the safety of a kid. What's wrong with perps having to be held to a standard that includes having zero access to children? They still can live out their lives productively, why do kids need to be a part of that?

The prevention of kids developing into predators seems easy compared to what folks think you are to do with the perps who are already identified.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255760 - 10/17/08 10:24 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
M3 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: uscmc97
There's something deeper that is trying to be said, there's a reason for wanting signs that predators can change.

You are right. I think every side of this tread, and everyone that takes a stance in between, is heavily influenced by how they view their perpetrator. And I don't think anyone can be faulted for that view. I was physically abused by my mother and recently found out that she may have known about the sexual abuse all along, maybe even profited from it. But I can't view her as absolute evil, I can't. I can't view the older boys that took advantage of me as being absolute evil either.

My mother had a daughter when I was 21. She was the best mother to my little sister. The older boys were a group who heard I "could help them out" since they'd never had a blow job before. I was 10, they were in middle school. They were bigger and there was five of them so I gave in, but there was no force and very little coercion. The may have given up if I'd denied it and said no. I doubt they grew up to be adult perpetrators, I think they were just curious. (Thanks, but I'm not looking for feedback on that... let's stick to the point I'm trying to make...) My first perp was when I was six, but it was my cousin who was only four or five!

As for my football coach and the man that nearly killed me, their grooming and lies were much in insidious. One is in prison for life (the state parole board has promised he will never get out, his victim count was in the 300+ range I believe) but the coach is MIA.

I feel conflicted by this thread because I agree with both sides depending on which of my perpetrators we talk about.

There is a lot of good conversation in this thread, but what I also see is that because our positions can be so tied to our abuse, the perpetrator, and the role of that perpetrator in our lives, it is easy for each of us to wrap those important points in a lot of emotion than, on the other end is being read through a lenses of emotion, burying the true meaning in what we are saying to each other.

I think on this matter, because of our histories, the identities of our perpetrator, the roles our perpetrators played in our lives, and even how our abuse was handled when we attempted to, successfully or unsuccessfully, to disclose, all plays apart in how we view this issue. Because the countless combination of way of how these things play out, we get such a broad set of opinions on this issue. And these opinions are further molded by our experiences as adults.

Everyone has made valid points, but I think we just need to agree that we are going to disagree on this issue.

Ultimately, we don't know enough about what makes an offender an offender. Psychologist continue to study this in hopes of finding a way of identifying for the purpose of prevention (and protection) and "curing" (can't think of a better term, I'm not assuming it is an illness - no comments please, forgive me, I'm tired...).

Policy makers and politicians are trying to make laws that remove the ability of perpetrators from being around kids. Laws that prevent them from living in certain parts of town, registering where they are at and having it posted on the Internet, having bulletins distributed when they move into a neighborhood.

The sad fact is, we don't have the money to keep them all in prison or to monitor each on every minute of the day. I think, as a society, we would if we could until we are sure that they won't perp again. As a society, we have limited capacity within our criminal justice system and our laws decide who we consider to be the most heinous of criminals.

Right now, I think some states have stiffer penalties for drug possession than child molestation.

Maybe we should focus our energy in convincing our state legislatures to come to terms with just how devastating child sexual abuse really is and get them to begin reforming the laws and putting money into protecting and HEALING these kids and the adults these kids grow up to be.

I think it's our turn.

Peace and love to all my brothers in recovery...

Michael


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#255762 - 10/17/08 10:43 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
USMC,

I feel your "us" vs "them" stance (your words) alone is far from neutral and is implying that any survivor that doesn't believe as you do is somehow calling "for second chances," or using "unproved theories of redemption, misleading factoids, excuses, desperate hope to humanize" -- in other words, a perp sympathizer. I feel that is incorrect in my case.

If that were true, and I was a sympathizer to active pedophiles, why would I have worked with so many to turn their lives around and not offend again?

When I say they deserve redemption, I am not saying they get a free gift of forgiveness -- quite the opposite, actually. I'm saying that any criminal, with the appropriate amount of work and reflection and proving of safety to our standards, deserves the chance to change his or her life.

Take this for example: 20 is legally an adult. But really, he is not an adult. There are lessons one hasn't learned (generally) by 20 that, say, a 40 year old would know. At 20, most perps I've known didn't even realize what their illness was, let alone control it and/or have foresight enough to stay away from kids. Then if they did realize what that part of them was, they were confused and stuffing it deep inside -- as many survivors do with their abuse history (one commonality between "us" and them").

With this lack of knowledge and life experience, and lack of support and help (and there is a lack of it, I don't know where people get that there is abundant services for pre-arrest pedophiles), is it hard to imagine some would wrongly and inappropriately act out their feelings? It isn't to me.

But is 50-year-old Johnny the same person as the 20-year-old he once was? Of course not. Is any 50-year-old the same as when they were 20? No.

And if 50-year-old Johnny does mega treatment over that 30-year span after his offense, and proves to our standards that he is able to live safely in society, does he not deserve a second chance?

And yes, there will be some that can't -- and those who can't will be fairly obvious to spot in treatment prior to their prison term/probationary period ending. And yes, we should keep those men and women indefinitely.

But I feel your theory that all perps are all the same isn't, in my opinion and experience, true. And I feel that since they are not all the same, they don't all deserve the same treatment.

To your idea in the example of alcoholics who hurt people never being allowed to drink again: how do we do that? Does each alcoholic require a blood-alcohol test every day? Do we hire someone to watch each one?

You said you weren't for camps. That's good. But, I don't see how, keeping with your plan to keep all pedophiles away from all kids, we could ever do anything but camps. If you believe they can live productively still, how is that possible outside of civilization?

Because the reality is that kids are everywhere, and there's no realistic way to keep pedophiles away from kids completely. Even if we herd all the convicted ones into prison, there are still those who have not offended and/or not been caught. So unless we find the gene (or whatever makes someone offend) and identify them pre-birth, I don't see a way of ridding the world of this, sadly. frown

It's like saying we should rid the world of sin. You can't.

So, in a more realistic light, I feel better options and help should be available, and I feel that our demonizing and stereotyping of these people actually hurts our cause -- because why would young Johnny seek pre-offense help and support if he is deathly afraid of societal wrath and violence? If he watches TV and sees the worst-case scenarios on the news and the people getting more and more angry? If people think he is a lost cause and doomed from the start, it does not provide a lot of motivation to take the steps to NOT offend, does it?

And then we say "well, that's his problem, not mine. He should just know exactly what to do to be perfect." I don't know about you, but I didn't always know all the right answers in life...I don't think many have; and especially with someone in that big of a predicament? *shrug*

Well it is our problem, that is if we want to protect kids. And instead of what I feel is knee-jerk reactions, we need to step back, breathe, and look realistically and logically at things to get the real picture to know better how protect kids.

I have no doubt your perps were vicious and cruel people, USMC. I have no doubt they were of the minority that cannot be helped. But offenders, in my experience, do not fit a cookie cutter -- just like survivors or ANYONE doesn't -- and it's dangerous for children to put them into that mold.



_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#255794 - 10/17/08 01:39 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
sunwolf Offline


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 225
Loc: Indiana
"I think it's crucial in a discussion like this that we all keep in mind that we are talking to other survivors and do our best to keep it from becoming personal."



I must agree 100%%%%%%%%% ....... please lets love each other....



Edited by sunwolf (10/17/08 01:39 PM)

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#255797 - 10/17/08 01:42 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: AndyJB2005]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Let me make a statement about recidivism and statistics. In the past few years, probation and parole departments around the US have been making registered sex offenders stay indoors from dusk til dawn on Halloween in the belief that they pose a threat to kids trick-or-treating.

Our "common sense" tells us that is a wise thing to do. Last year, a district attorney in a western state did some research from 13 years in his county to determine the number of reported assaults that took place on Halloween. Here are his results:

Quote:
last year when we went through this identical discussion I pulled 13
years of statistics from my prosecutors office:

In that period we had approximately 5560 cases referred to our sex crime
unit
exactly 6 cases were referred to the sex crimes unit for offenses with
an October 31 crime date

of those allegations were....
1 was an alleged sexual assault against an adult
2 were allegations of physical assault against a child
3...were referrals for failure to register.

6/5560. do the math.





Edited by Ken Singer, LCSW (10/17/08 01:42 PM)

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