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#255006 - 10/13/08 09:34 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: ineffable]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Clinical... I was in a program where they tried to humanize "them" with the concept that interaction and education could effect the power they hold. I am very educated about them. they have more simularities to a crack addict than to us.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255009 - 10/13/08 09:41 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Were you part of a group that "they" tried to humanize "them" with?
Through interaction with yourself & others in a clinical setting?
Just trying to understand where you are coming from.
Thanks.



Edited by ineffable (10/13/08 09:59 PM)
_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#255014 - 10/13/08 10:14 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: ineffable]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
I was used to try and humanize "them" by them witnessing all of the stuff I have to go through. They were supposed to be humanized to me by me seeing their vulnerabilities. It did neither.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255016 - 10/13/08 10:18 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: ineffable]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Well I've worked with hundreds in theraputic settings, and maybe one or two that I met were within your imfamous archetype, USMC. Yes there are extremes in everything and it's simple to point to those as your reference -- and who's going to question it? It's such an emotional issue. You're quite burned at the stake here for that.

However, the ones I've worked with took HUGE steps in preventing another abusive situation. Many of them spent years and years and years doing the 12 steps of various A's, did the steps backwards, forwards, up, down...did years of therapy and offender treatment and whatever else they needed to do. They followed all their probationary restrictions with an army-like strictness and spent nearly their entire life savings on becoming better and never hurting another child.

I know about 30 guys just off the top of my head that stay away from kids without the child's parent knowing of their pedophilia/offense.

They were very serious about recovering and 99.5% of them, that I knew at least, freely admitted to what they did and admitted (with a great deal of remourse) that it was wrong.

Maybe where you were the guys were particularily bad fellows, I don't know. But I wish more people would think logically about stuff...but somehow I'm guessing you're just gonna say they were playing nice...

Of course what they did was wrong...and the ones I worked with would be the first to tell you that. No one is questioning the wrongness. No one is making excuses for them either. I'm just stating that they, like you and me, have problems too -- and are HUMAN!

My dad abused me my chilhood whole life...so I'm not some apologist (I wish you could say stuff here without some f*cking disclaimer) or some person that doesn't know what it feels like to be abused.

I guess because I don't want to shoot them in the face that I'm somehow less as a survivor....

Anyway...I feel what I say won't matter to anyone so I'll stop here...

Argh...

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#255019 - 10/13/08 10:47 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: AndyJB2005]
Bewlayb1 Offline
Guest

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 241
Loc: NYC
I have one memory from my childhood which disturbs me perhaps even more than those of the abuse itself. I was young, about ten. It was either while the sexual abuse by a teacher was happening, or just after in ended. I was watching a little girl at the park, three, or four years old, running around naked. My older brother asked me why I was staring at her. I felt so sick, so guilty. I stopped, and that was the last time I saw a child in that way.

Why did I overcome at ten what others never do? It must have been one of my first victories over the abuse. Later would come an end to the nightmares, social skills and sanity.

Some may not like my answer, but it's the only one I can come up with. I was a good person. I needed to be good. Even as a child, I was decent enough and strong enough not to reanact the cruelty which was done to me.

Do I sympathize with pedophiles who have been abused themselves? They might have lived perfectly normal lives otherwise. This horrible thing was forced on them, and they couldn't beat it. It's sad. It's tragic.

But truly, I consider these people lost. I know that I would rather kill myself than harm a child. I can't really feel sorry for anyone who wouldn't do the same.


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#255035 - 10/14/08 12:16 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: Bewlayb1]
Barkabus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 809
I'm with Andy on this one. Sure I think there are some...many perps who are unrepentant and lack any amount of remorse. But I think that there are some who do come to the point of recognizing the evil that they have perpetrated and have genuine remorse over it. Does this help those the perp has victimized? Not at all. Is the perp just has human as his/her victims. Yes! For these perps is there hope of rehabilitation? Yes, I think so.

This is not a black and white issue. Just my two cents worth.

Thanks Andy!

Mike

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#255041 - 10/14/08 01:07 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: Barkabus]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
You guys believe that a predator can be rehabilitated to a point enough to be safe around a kid?

That speaks to say that my perps are still human after the things they did to me?

It's a concious choice that all of them make to hurt someone. At any point if they did stop their ways, with however much remorse, they have still inflicted an unnatural pain and created a tormented life for someone else. But someone like me is supposed to applaud their apoligies? That's why this subject is never resolved. How can it be requested that a person like me support even one of "them" in anything that they do. If they had true remorse they would take any and all responsibility and ridicual for what they've done. It's their shame, let them own it.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255042 - 10/14/08 01:13 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: Bewlayb1]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
It's hard to defend abusers without feeling as though I am defending abuse it's self. But if hatred and condemnation were the answer, the problem should have been solved centuries ago.

I have no urges to hurt children, but I can't help but think that if those who do were somehow able to seek help for themselves BEFORE they hurt a child without invoking the condemnation and hatred of everyone who knows them by doing so, there might be far fewer kids being hurt.

Right now, though, at least as far as I know, if a person who felt he/she was at risk of hurting a child tried to seek help before the tragedy occurs, that person would find that treatment was only available to those who had already offended plus they would then be labeled a monster by the same society that refuses them treatment because they have not yet offended. Does that make sense?

That's not to say that whatever treatment is available to offenders is necessarily effective, but in some ways it seems like it is our hatred of abusers that keeps us as a society from really dealing with the issue.

It's easy to just label abusers as monsters and treat them as such but has that worked? It isn't exactly a new approach and so far it's record as an effective way of solving the problem is pretty abysmal. We have way more child molesters than room to incarcerate them, and I'm pretty sure it isn't because we hate them any less than we ever have.

I am very far from knowing what the answer is, but I feel strongly that if society would give respect rather than condemnation to someone who says "I am a pedophile. I want to get help BEFORE I hurt a child." it would be a step in the right direction. But as things are just admitting one has those feelings practically puts a person in the same category as those who act on those feelings and because of this, it isn't too hard to understand how a person having those feelings would end up acting on them before they seek help.

Of course they should still try not to abuse children out of caring about children, but my and your idea of what they should feel or what their motives should be do nothing to protect the children they are likely to harm.

I have as much hatred in my heart as anyone towards those who abuse children but my hatred isn't protecting children. Those on the other hand, who are able to put their feelings aside and work with pedophiles and predators toward the goal of not offending...those people may be the ones who are really making a difference while me and my hatred do nothing.

I am nowhere near being able to do that kind of work myself, but I feel strongly that if I not only hate abusers but also hate everyone who DOESN'T hate abusers the way I do, my hatred is grossly misplaced because many of those people are doing something about the problem---not because they don't hate abuse, but because they can love children more than they hate pedophiles.

I just had to get that out here because I really admire some of the people on this site who are really doing something to protect children by working with offenders and it almost seems like for them to admit that they are doing this heroic work on this site makes them an "apologist" or "sympathizers" or whatever and I really feel that unless I can say that my sitting around hating pedophiles has saved a child and that they haven't, I have no business calling them sympathizers or misguided or anything else.


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My Art

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#255049 - 10/14/08 01:50 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
With the things done to me by my perps, where not a single one of them told one of the others to stop in all the painful disgusting things they did. What remorseful person could sit to even watch the things done to me each time over the years of torture and do nothing? To be handed from one to the next for each of them to own a part in hurting me repeatedly? To be killed for their pleasure and then revived to more pain? None of my perps ever came forward and there are a good number of them.

All of that and I don't call death to any of "them". I want nothing but for predators to take responsibility for their own actions because it does take effort for them to do what they do. It's not accidental in any way and is solely preventable by their efforts.

I don't say to hate, I'm just for strict responsibility.

There is help for them.... counseling, accountability, education, their responsibility to not be around children PERIOD.
They can seek therapy and be protected by confidentiality. They are protected from ridicual until they offend in every way, even with law enforcement if they were to sincerely come forward for help prior to hurting anybody. Until they have acted on their thoughts there is nothing really that can be done to them. It is easier for them to seek help than it is for a lot of us. We are supposed to be sympothetic toward them because they are afraid they will get in trouble? Duh! They need to quit being cowards and own up to what they need to do in order for prevention to happen.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255179 - 10/14/08 06:49 PM Re: survivors and s... ****TIGGER ALERT ***** [Re: usmc97]
king tut Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2465
Loc: UK
********* major trigger alert ***********

I think it does take a conscious effort to abuse a child.

It's not like...oh, oops, sorry about that, i didn't mean to wake you up every night to fuck you and make you do things you dont even understand.

Maybe they lack empathy
empathy:
the power of identifying oneself mentally with (and so fully comprehending) a person or object of contemplation

Maybe they don't understand that a child is a person and not a object.
Maybe they convince themselves that it is not so bad.
Maybe they convince themselves that the child likes it.
Maybe they convince themselves that they are not harming the child.
Maybe they just like the power, the control.
Maybe they are fucked up in the head.
Maybe they think they are showing their love.
Maybe they like seeing people hurt.
Maybe they don't think the kid will remember so thinks it is ok
Maybe they are just uncaring people who don't think about the consequences of their actions.
Maybe they only think about their own satisfaction and forfilling their needs and sexual desires.

There are no excuses, and none should be made.

They consciously decide to do it, over, and over and over and over....................

It is not an accident, it is not a brief failure in judgement, it is not because of the hormones flowing through their body suddenly urging them to do this to a child, it is a conscious decision to use a child as a sexual outlet and to have power and control.

Anyway, that being said, i think abusers can be helped, i think abusers can come to a point where they see what they did was wrong, and not do it again, but no excuses, none at all, none ever. I can't imagine how somebody can take an innoccent child and do all those bad things, it's like HELLO!!! wake up- what the fuck are you doing, people shouldn't have to be told not to do it, alarm bells should be ringing in their heads saying GET THE FUCK OFF THAT KID! it's so sad that some people lack the basic human quality of having the power to identify oneself mentally with (and so fully comprehending) a person or object of contemplation- CORRECTLY. They make up lie after lie after lie to themselves to make the sick things they are doing seem ok.

I don't remember the original question, but even through demonising abusers, i at least recognise that what they do is lie to themselves a lot, so i can recognise their illness in that way, a long string of lies which propagates- with a real and immediate conscious effort- to do thoughtless and disgusting things just to forfill their own selfish desires of sex, control and power.




Edited by M3 (10/14/08 08:15 PM)
Edit Reason: Added Trigger Alert
_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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