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#255211 - 10/14/08 08:05 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: king tut]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
I guess I kind of knew when I posted that last post that it would be misinterpreted. I am not making excuses for child molesters nor am I suggesting that what they do is in any way accidental or inadvertent.

I'm not even saying that I hate them any less than anyone else.

What I am saying is that hating child molesters has not proven to be an effective means of protecting children, and that we should not count those who, very possibly, ARE making a difference by working with them toward not re-offending as being
somehow pro-child molester. They are not being pro-child molester, they are being pro-children.

I really don't care how much you demonize child molesters, but I do care that those who work with them in an effort to protect children are being demonized along with the child molesters simply because they believe that the way society has thus far dealt with them is ineffectual!

Just as it's obvious that molesting children is wrong, it should also be obvious that what society has been doing about it for centuries now has not been working.

I'm not trying to deny anyone their cherished hatred of child molesters. I'm just saying that those who overcome their hatred enough to try something new in an effort to save children from being molested should not be cast as being somehow soft on sexual abuse or pro-child molester.

These people are trying to protect children. What are you doing?
I know what I'm doing. Nothing. I'm not doing jack. So what right do I have to condemn those who ARE doing something just because they are trying a new approach that has NOT had centuries to work but is still failing miserably?

And these people know that what they are doing will make them a target of people's misplaced hatred, but they do it anyway because they believe that what they are doing might make a difference and that is more important to them than not being hated.

That is heroic to me. And yes, there is help available to pedophiles but only because there are those people who are willing to get spit on in order to make a real difference.

And if defending those people gets me spit on too, fine. If you keep flipping a light switch and the light doesn't go on, do you keep working the switch in hopes that somehow the results will be different, or do you look for another way to solve the problem?


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#255227 - 10/14/08 08:52 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
I thought it was an excellent point Doug. Got ya all the way.

The only thing I can add is when I'm not vilified for BEING a survivor then we can work on help for the perp's.

I've been through trauma and I just recieved my parden, it was for possession of pot, stealing a diving board when I was 16 and a bar fight I got into when I was 21 (he had a black eye, no knifing or shooting or jumping on his head when he was down) I still can flashback to the things I've done and treat myself as some kind of unchangeable monster.

I think there is a difference, some of us make mistakes and some of us destroy lives. It does come down to a choice.

Even in my most darkest, suicidal, drugged up, raging stages, I wasn't about to get off on anothers pain. There are different types of people in this world.

Throw away the key? No WAY!! but I still want to be taken care of first.

Fuck man, I think we deserve it.

Perpetuation anyone? maybe a new topic eh?

Stay strong
Mike

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#255252 - 10/14/08 09:50 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: mogigo]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
If it was a matter of who deserves help more the survivor or the predator then of course the survivor deserves help more than the predator, but I don't think anyone is really interested in providing help for predators were it not for the fact that doing so may prevent children from being harmed.

Looking at it that way, it isn't a choice between survivors or predators being helped, it's more a choice between survivors being helped and children being protected. Both are extremely important and I really don't believe that we can't do both.


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#255259 - 10/14/08 10:02 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: mogigo]
M3 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
Mike,

Quote:

I still want to be taken care of first... I think we deserve it.


That, my friend, is one incredibly powerful statement.

So much attention is paid to how horrible these perpetrators are (and they are). We see it on the news and talk shows. We hear our political leaders use them to scare up votes. But we are left in their dust to fend for ourself with the support of other survivors. We seem to remain the taboo, the secret subject, even after we disclose.

You are right Mike. It's our time!

Michael


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#255261 - 10/14/08 10:04 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
king tut Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2466
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: blueshift
What I am saying is that hating child molesters has not proven to be an effective means of protecting children


No not as a preventitive means you are right, but it can act as a substitue to to affirm certain things to over rule false ideas in areas where there are no other satisfactory operators.

People have the right to hate, like you say, but not in some belittlement of "cherished hate" but a painfully earned right, and as a strong human emotion developed through evolution its presence should not be so quickly disregarded as an energy wasting out-dated function, it is a limited thing, but still useful. Some days i hate, some days i will let other thoughts rule, sure, hating doesn't help so much, but sometimes hating is needed, if only to affirm your own worth and their wrongness- to over rule the feelings of worthlesness that they inserted callously into you, and to over rule the position they held, their apparent correctness, power, superiority or whatever (Sure as a side note it is important, as they say, not to let your emotions own you, and control you, but for you to own your emotions, so that you can shape your life into something better, and something healthy). Anyway, so hate and understanding in the way that i've tried to describe can do a parallel job, to affirm certain things to over rule false ideas. With understanding, since there are no really satisfactory answers (which is why people demonise sometimes) it becomes a weaker substitute to hate, which is why hate returns. In a way it is sometimes either between hate, or the monster, or your own worthlesness, because if we only look at it from their view, the understanding, the list of maybes that i wrote earlier, maybe THEY...., then it is about them, which is how it is, but then there is no you, you don't exist, you didn't matter, you were an object, and it's circular and again they are heartless demons, because therefore they must be, because don't i suppose to be worth something? yes, you must understand that (insert abusers string of propagating lies to convince himself it is ok and try to provide an explanation that excludes your worthlesness), but that means (insert resultant implications of abusers self propagating lies which show that you were worthless to that person due to the persons lack of thought and care for you due to the selfish manner of his own self propagating lies), so i am worthless, then continue loop or instead demonise to find an understanding of how you could be treated like such a worthless being if you were not actually worthless. Of course there is the arguement that just because they thought you were worthless and treated you without care that doesn't mean you were worthless or deserved that (can you imagine such thing as a worthless child?) but then if the person is human then it is hard to compute, especially since abusers don't walk aroung with horns and fangs so it doesn't seem like they can be so completely wrong.

I think you are right blueshift that a few people may look curiously upon people who work with child molesters, but i think that is a knee-jerk reaction, i understand how good it is that professionals work with chid molesters to try to help them, people just need a bit of education, this is a foreign field to lots of people. But i still think it is good to condem child molesters with a decent portion of hatred, it IS a preventitive means to a certain extent, otherwise we have a pretty shit society, and if somebody abused my son it would anger me if everybody suddenly turned around and started wrapping the abuser in cotton wool and bubble wrap. Professionals can give them understanding, the public should set an example, moral, and to the people that suffered at their hands, by harbouring hatred for such heinous crimes.

Originally Posted By: blueshift
I'm just saying that those who overcome their hatred enough to try something new in an effort to save children


Society has a responsibility to try to stop these people, but absolutely no responsibility to stop hating the crime (which can maybe be differentiated from hating the person-depends on your view of accountability).

Anyway, i wasn't replying in my first post to anyone in particular, just generally.

Originally Posted By: blueshift
it should also be obvious that what society has been doing about it for centuries now has not been working.


Yes but because society hasn't been doing anything about child molesters for centuries, it wasn't talked about, and not because hatred has been used to try to be a sole preventitive mean, the only action taken in the past was don't talk about it and it doesn't exist.

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I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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#255266 - 10/14/08 10:15 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
we can't do baoth Doug? Funny, I'm not feeling represented at all. I'm living in you're perfect world Doug, I did say throw away the key, No WAY!!!. ...........but, I'll take the resources thanks.

Lets do this in a realistic way Doug.

Fuck Man, in my world an adult, NEVER!!!! thinks about fucking a child (sorry, way harsh and I'd put in the ***** but fuck that.

Doug please bro, know I heard every word from you, you make more sense than I've ever heard from the "save the world" side. But come on, lets get realistic Bro. We'll go there in a bit, I promise you!

I am that guy, but we've (you, I, and all my Bro's have some work to do first) We'll get to them in a bit.

Let's focus Bro. No perfect world's, no humanization, no "lord I believe shit". Right now, right here, right realistic. Lets work on that and get to those Bro's when we can.

You noticed I said Bro's Doug.

Focus Doug

Stay strong
Mike

PS: this has got pretty strong bro, PM me if you feel the need okay? But don't think I won't fight you right here and now.

Look above bro, stay........

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#255267 - 10/14/08 10:23 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: mogigo]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
I think the big money (resources) are with us. More can relate Bro, "I was abused, or My Dad smacked me and now I'm fucked, or my Mom was a bitch and now my mind just can't relate". Compared to "I want to fuck a child" I think we're way better off pushing our message rather than trying to get the populas to fund the populas who can relate to the Ped.

Perfect world, yes. I'm that guy. Were not living in a perfect world are we?

We'll get to you "people who fuck children", right now I'm doing what I can for those of us who don't.

We need guys like that, because "the world just ain't there"

..........PRIORITIES!!!!.............


Got mine

Mike

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#255299 - 10/15/08 12:38 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: mogigo]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
I guess I'm kind of having trouble making sense of a lot of this, but my general sense is that I am still being heard as saying that we shouldn't hate child molesters or that we should give them more consideration than we give survivors.

I am not saying either of those things. Since it seems to have been lost, let me reiterate that my support of those who work with predators is not out of any kind of sympathy whatever for predators.

PROTECTING CHILDREN!!!


You don't have to agree that working with predators is the best way to do that, but I am asking you to accept that THAT is what I am talking about and not molly coddling predators.

I don't give a crap about the feelings of predators. I only care that children are being victimized and that those who try something new in an effort to protect them are being unjustly labeled as child molester sympathizers.


I am not a child molester sympathizer and neither are those who
work with child molesters ON BEHALF OF THE CHILDREN THEY ARE TRYING TO PROTECT BY DOING SO.

Look, I don't care to argue about anything else. All I want is for that one point to be recognized. HATE CHILD MOLESTERS ALL YOU WANT!! I HATE THEM TOO! BUT DON'T HATE PEOPLE FOR TRYING TO PROTECT CHILDREN AND DON'T HATE ME FOR DEFENDING PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO PROTECT CHILDREN BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT'S ABOUT NOT BEING EASY ON CHILD MOLESTERS!


Excuse me for yelling but somehow it seems as though I am not being heard and I am running out of ideas as far as being more clear about this. That is the point I have been trying to make and that is all I care about getting across! Disagree with me all you want about other issues but please don't put me and my heroes who are doing what I could never do FOR THE SAKE OF PROTECTING CHILDREN on a level with child molesters!!!

THAT is what I am against..not hating child molesters--I'm not against that..not working towards more/better help for survivors--I'm not against that either!

.......PRIORITIES!!!!.......

PROTECTING CHILDREN!!!


THAT is the priority, NOT protecting child molesters from hurt feelings.

Am I clear about that or do I need to rephrase it again somehow?



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#255305 - 10/15/08 12:47 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
One last past.

The best way to get The "normals" to understand is to get them to relate with the victim's not the perp's. Once we can get them to understand that all victim's will not become perp's then we can get them to understand??!! (sorry I'm not there yet myself) the thought's of the perp's.

I just feel like you're skipping a step, unless of course that you think the "normals" already understand us survivors.

But hey, lets work on explaining why perp's offend. I'm sure they'll understand that in no time flat.

Read the first line of my first post Doug

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#255310 - 10/15/08 12:56 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: mogigo]
dgoods Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
I just thought I'd chime in generally with my impressions/thoughts stirred by the thread... priority #1 is always "keep myself safe and as self-honest as possible"... trying to get my body, my heart, and my mind to all agree, has been one of the hardest struggles that's been a constant for me.

I'm filled with rage, fear and despair whenever memories of the man who abused me surface- yet also a certain detached perspective of pity and regret- the perception that if only someone somewhere in this man's life, had noticed how seriously wrong his thinking was, all of this pain and aftermath could've been avoided. In a sense, it doesn't matter how much of an offender's acts are/were the result of a consciously made choice, rather than the end-product of severe psychological abuse- the trauma experienced remains the same for the victim.
In another sense, i feel any effort to get the widest and deepest understanding of perps of any stripe can only help reduce their numbers. I realize this is a sensitive topic, even in the context of this site, and only ask that readers of this post understand that these are my thoughts at the moment- no more, no less.

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Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

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