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#254875 - 10/13/08 12:29 PM survivors and sex offenders...
sunwolf Offline


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 225
Loc: Indiana
I know some guys that have bene survivors that then turned into sex offenders...if that's the case...how we will deal with them? am confused because i have a friend that is like that...i have trouble when we talk cuze i don't know if am talking to a survivor or a sex offender...



Edited by sunwolf (10/13/08 12:59 PM)

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#254878 - 10/13/08 12:43 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: sunwolf]
M3 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
Sunwolf,

That's a tough question. I'm not sure I can speak to it at the moment. I'll think about it and let's see what others can contribute...

Peace and love...

Michael


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#254886 - 10/13/08 01:07 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: M3]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
It's possible to be both a survivor and sex offender -- in fact I've never worked with a pedophile that wasn't abused as a child. Is there abuse less valid than yours? I feel you're not somehow less abused if you yourself offend. It doesn't mean that what they've done is right at all. It's not. Abuse is horrible.

But I guess you have to ask yourself the question of are you a fair weather friend or are you two true friends? Do you like him as a whole or just parts?

As evil as abuse is, their offenses or attractions make up only part of who they are as a whole. Even pedophiles were someone's little boy (or girl) in the past and it's sad to me that they got so mixed up from stuff that they felt they had to repeat the abuse themselves. \:\(

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#254902 - 10/13/08 02:50 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: sunwolf]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
I have a strong view in that someone can't be both. Being abused DOES NOT turn a person into an abuser. It's such a small minority of "Us" that goes on to be one of "Them". Somehow that is lost and we are called to be forgiving, accepting, and understanding, just because a perp may have been hurt when they were younger. It does not make them one of "us" and does not excuse any of there violations toward kids. It's not by chance, like they accidently tripped and did something to a child, it takes effort to be a pediphile.

It's not right to assume that we all could have become what they are.... they do not evolve from us. Can any of you take on creating a kid as hurt as you, experiencing things the way you did and the aftermath?... that is what makes them different from you, they are after self gratification and power where kids are objects. Once they hurt a kid as an adult they've chosen their identity. I treat a perp as such until they have accepted responsibility for their deeds and behaviors which very few ever do.

"Us and Them"

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#254915 - 10/13/08 04:24 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
USMC, you sure know a lot of facts without A) working closely with these people and/or B) living through it. I suggest more research.

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#254921 - 10/13/08 04:43 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: sunwolf]
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Originally Posted By: sunwolf
i have trouble when we talk cuze i don't know if am talking to a survivor or a sex offender...


Are they talking about offending or having offended or are they talking about surviving having been abused?

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#254937 - 10/13/08 05:46 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: sunwolf]
arronb Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 1005
Loc: Perth
Hello Sunwolf

What a difficult spot you find yourself in. ‘How do we deal with them …’
I guess an answer to that is to be guided by how you feel in their presence,
You may react differently to one or more depending on how well you know them and/or what you know of their situation …
if you feel uncomfortable then let that be your starting point I guess …

I always have a giggle when this issue raises it’s head …
Those who say a perp is a perp and should be treated as such always get the black and white thing thrown at them by those who have a different view …
I’ve always wondered why these so called ‘grey’ people think their view is any less black and white than those they want to change their opinions.

Personally I think neither view is defendable …
Not all sex offenders are exclusive brethren of the devil …
Not all ‘reformed’ offenders stay reformed …

I guess it’s a case by case decision … I personally think its a subject where one should always keep an open mind ...
everyone deserves a second chance in life, people always make mistakes ...
but you have to temper that with being vigilant as to protect yourself, those likely to be offended against and those very same offenders who have been reformed ...
such is this persons grey view of things LOL



_________________________
Keep Smilin'
arronb

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#254950 - 10/13/08 06:30 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: arronb]
lungfish Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: nowhere special nj
That is some excellent advice arronb. I, personally, can't be around perps or any type of abusive person. It messes me up. I realize that everyone acts the way they do for a reason, but for me to do what is right for me, I can not be near them. I recently saw a t that specializes in guys like us but he also counsels perps. I told him I would probably come back but I know I won't. I can't sit on a couch that I know an abuser has and will later sit on. I'm drifting, time to go. Pete

_________________________
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson

Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like to be taught. -Sir Winston Churchill

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#254994 - 10/13/08 08:50 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: lungfish]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
I have worked with "them", I also have had a lot of experience with perps and their behavioral issues. I do know facts over theories. Hurting a kid isn't a mistake, it is what it is and nothing less. Just because a perp might have been nice does not make them any less liable for the evil that they do. Put one of those so called "reformed" perps around a kid and see how reformed they are. I'm not willing to allow that to happen because there is no justification to use a child as bait to prove the deviance of a predator. Having an "open" mind to their behavior and taking acount of all the excuses for their actions only enables them. There is no excuse for them to hurt a kid or for anyone to give them the chance repeat it down the road. This ain't a subject where it's okay to give them "second chances". How many of them take responsibility for what they do? If they would then this stuff would be fully preventable but no, they need to live their lives and not lay claim to fault.

If it's not our fault they hurt us.... and it's not their fault they do the things they do, then who is responsible? The kid or the predator?.... they sure made me believe it was my fault. I'm not like "them" and the view that there is just some missing link to connect us and "them" is a scapegoat and offensive to everyone who is innocent.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255000 - 10/13/08 09:14 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
ineffable Offline
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Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Originally Posted By: usmc97
I have worked with "them", I also have had a lot of experience with perps and their behavioral issues.


In what capacities & contexts?

_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#255006 - 10/13/08 09:34 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: ineffable]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Clinical... I was in a program where they tried to humanize "them" with the concept that interaction and education could effect the power they hold. I am very educated about them. they have more simularities to a crack addict than to us.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255009 - 10/13/08 09:41 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
ineffable Offline
Member
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Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Were you part of a group that "they" tried to humanize "them" with?
Through interaction with yourself & others in a clinical setting?
Just trying to understand where you are coming from.
Thanks.



Edited by ineffable (10/13/08 09:59 PM)
_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#255014 - 10/13/08 10:14 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: ineffable]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
I was used to try and humanize "them" by them witnessing all of the stuff I have to go through. They were supposed to be humanized to me by me seeing their vulnerabilities. It did neither.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255016 - 10/13/08 10:18 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: ineffable]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Well I've worked with hundreds in theraputic settings, and maybe one or two that I met were within your imfamous archetype, USMC. Yes there are extremes in everything and it's simple to point to those as your reference -- and who's going to question it? It's such an emotional issue. You're quite burned at the stake here for that.

However, the ones I've worked with took HUGE steps in preventing another abusive situation. Many of them spent years and years and years doing the 12 steps of various A's, did the steps backwards, forwards, up, down...did years of therapy and offender treatment and whatever else they needed to do. They followed all their probationary restrictions with an army-like strictness and spent nearly their entire life savings on becoming better and never hurting another child.

I know about 30 guys just off the top of my head that stay away from kids without the child's parent knowing of their pedophilia/offense.

They were very serious about recovering and 99.5% of them, that I knew at least, freely admitted to what they did and admitted (with a great deal of remourse) that it was wrong.

Maybe where you were the guys were particularily bad fellows, I don't know. But I wish more people would think logically about stuff...but somehow I'm guessing you're just gonna say they were playing nice...

Of course what they did was wrong...and the ones I worked with would be the first to tell you that. No one is questioning the wrongness. No one is making excuses for them either. I'm just stating that they, like you and me, have problems too -- and are HUMAN!

My dad abused me my chilhood whole life...so I'm not some apologist (I wish you could say stuff here without some f*cking disclaimer) or some person that doesn't know what it feels like to be abused.

I guess because I don't want to shoot them in the face that I'm somehow less as a survivor....

Anyway...I feel what I say won't matter to anyone so I'll stop here...

Argh...

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#255019 - 10/13/08 10:47 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: AndyJB2005]
Bewlayb1 Offline
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Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 243
Loc: NYC
I have one memory from my childhood which disturbs me perhaps even more than those of the abuse itself. I was young, about ten. It was either while the sexual abuse by a teacher was happening, or just after in ended. I was watching a little girl at the park, three, or four years old, running around naked. My older brother asked me why I was staring at her. I felt so sick, so guilty. I stopped, and that was the last time I saw a child in that way.

Why did I overcome at ten what others never do? It must have been one of my first victories over the abuse. Later would come an end to the nightmares, social skills and sanity.

Some may not like my answer, but it's the only one I can come up with. I was a good person. I needed to be good. Even as a child, I was decent enough and strong enough not to reanact the cruelty which was done to me.

Do I sympathize with pedophiles who have been abused themselves? They might have lived perfectly normal lives otherwise. This horrible thing was forced on them, and they couldn't beat it. It's sad. It's tragic.

But truly, I consider these people lost. I know that I would rather kill myself than harm a child. I can't really feel sorry for anyone who wouldn't do the same.


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#255035 - 10/14/08 12:16 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: Bewlayb1]
Barkabus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 809
I'm with Andy on this one. Sure I think there are some...many perps who are unrepentant and lack any amount of remorse. But I think that there are some who do come to the point of recognizing the evil that they have perpetrated and have genuine remorse over it. Does this help those the perp has victimized? Not at all. Is the perp just has human as his/her victims. Yes! For these perps is there hope of rehabilitation? Yes, I think so.

This is not a black and white issue. Just my two cents worth.

Thanks Andy!

Mike

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My Story

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#255041 - 10/14/08 01:07 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: Barkabus]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
You guys believe that a predator can be rehabilitated to a point enough to be safe around a kid?

That speaks to say that my perps are still human after the things they did to me?

It's a concious choice that all of them make to hurt someone. At any point if they did stop their ways, with however much remorse, they have still inflicted an unnatural pain and created a tormented life for someone else. But someone like me is supposed to applaud their apoligies? That's why this subject is never resolved. How can it be requested that a person like me support even one of "them" in anything that they do. If they had true remorse they would take any and all responsibility and ridicual for what they've done. It's their shame, let them own it.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255042 - 10/14/08 01:13 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: Bewlayb1]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
It's hard to defend abusers without feeling as though I am defending abuse it's self. But if hatred and condemnation were the answer, the problem should have been solved centuries ago.

I have no urges to hurt children, but I can't help but think that if those who do were somehow able to seek help for themselves BEFORE they hurt a child without invoking the condemnation and hatred of everyone who knows them by doing so, there might be far fewer kids being hurt.

Right now, though, at least as far as I know, if a person who felt he/she was at risk of hurting a child tried to seek help before the tragedy occurs, that person would find that treatment was only available to those who had already offended plus they would then be labeled a monster by the same society that refuses them treatment because they have not yet offended. Does that make sense?

That's not to say that whatever treatment is available to offenders is necessarily effective, but in some ways it seems like it is our hatred of abusers that keeps us as a society from really dealing with the issue.

It's easy to just label abusers as monsters and treat them as such but has that worked? It isn't exactly a new approach and so far it's record as an effective way of solving the problem is pretty abysmal. We have way more child molesters than room to incarcerate them, and I'm pretty sure it isn't because we hate them any less than we ever have.

I am very far from knowing what the answer is, but I feel strongly that if society would give respect rather than condemnation to someone who says "I am a pedophile. I want to get help BEFORE I hurt a child." it would be a step in the right direction. But as things are just admitting one has those feelings practically puts a person in the same category as those who act on those feelings and because of this, it isn't too hard to understand how a person having those feelings would end up acting on them before they seek help.

Of course they should still try not to abuse children out of caring about children, but my and your idea of what they should feel or what their motives should be do nothing to protect the children they are likely to harm.

I have as much hatred in my heart as anyone towards those who abuse children but my hatred isn't protecting children. Those on the other hand, who are able to put their feelings aside and work with pedophiles and predators toward the goal of not offending...those people may be the ones who are really making a difference while me and my hatred do nothing.

I am nowhere near being able to do that kind of work myself, but I feel strongly that if I not only hate abusers but also hate everyone who DOESN'T hate abusers the way I do, my hatred is grossly misplaced because many of those people are doing something about the problem---not because they don't hate abuse, but because they can love children more than they hate pedophiles.

I just had to get that out here because I really admire some of the people on this site who are really doing something to protect children by working with offenders and it almost seems like for them to admit that they are doing this heroic work on this site makes them an "apologist" or "sympathizers" or whatever and I really feel that unless I can say that my sitting around hating pedophiles has saved a child and that they haven't, I have no business calling them sympathizers or misguided or anything else.


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My Art

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#255049 - 10/14/08 01:50 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
With the things done to me by my perps, where not a single one of them told one of the others to stop in all the painful disgusting things they did. What remorseful person could sit to even watch the things done to me each time over the years of torture and do nothing? To be handed from one to the next for each of them to own a part in hurting me repeatedly? To be killed for their pleasure and then revived to more pain? None of my perps ever came forward and there are a good number of them.

All of that and I don't call death to any of "them". I want nothing but for predators to take responsibility for their own actions because it does take effort for them to do what they do. It's not accidental in any way and is solely preventable by their efforts.

I don't say to hate, I'm just for strict responsibility.

There is help for them.... counseling, accountability, education, their responsibility to not be around children PERIOD.
They can seek therapy and be protected by confidentiality. They are protected from ridicual until they offend in every way, even with law enforcement if they were to sincerely come forward for help prior to hurting anybody. Until they have acted on their thoughts there is nothing really that can be done to them. It is easier for them to seek help than it is for a lot of us. We are supposed to be sympothetic toward them because they are afraid they will get in trouble? Duh! They need to quit being cowards and own up to what they need to do in order for prevention to happen.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255179 - 10/14/08 06:49 PM Re: survivors and s... ****TIGGER ALERT ***** [Re: usmc97]
king tut Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2466
Loc: UK
********* major trigger alert ***********

I think it does take a conscious effort to abuse a child.

It's not like...oh, oops, sorry about that, i didn't mean to wake you up every night to fuck you and make you do things you dont even understand.

Maybe they lack empathy
empathy:
the power of identifying oneself mentally with (and so fully comprehending) a person or object of contemplation

Maybe they don't understand that a child is a person and not a object.
Maybe they convince themselves that it is not so bad.
Maybe they convince themselves that the child likes it.
Maybe they convince themselves that they are not harming the child.
Maybe they just like the power, the control.
Maybe they are fucked up in the head.
Maybe they think they are showing their love.
Maybe they like seeing people hurt.
Maybe they don't think the kid will remember so thinks it is ok
Maybe they are just uncaring people who don't think about the consequences of their actions.
Maybe they only think about their own satisfaction and forfilling their needs and sexual desires.

There are no excuses, and none should be made.

They consciously decide to do it, over, and over and over and over....................

It is not an accident, it is not a brief failure in judgement, it is not because of the hormones flowing through their body suddenly urging them to do this to a child, it is a conscious decision to use a child as a sexual outlet and to have power and control.

Anyway, that being said, i think abusers can be helped, i think abusers can come to a point where they see what they did was wrong, and not do it again, but no excuses, none at all, none ever. I can't imagine how somebody can take an innoccent child and do all those bad things, it's like HELLO!!! wake up- what the fuck are you doing, people shouldn't have to be told not to do it, alarm bells should be ringing in their heads saying GET THE FUCK OFF THAT KID! it's so sad that some people lack the basic human quality of having the power to identify oneself mentally with (and so fully comprehending) a person or object of contemplation- CORRECTLY. They make up lie after lie after lie to themselves to make the sick things they are doing seem ok.

I don't remember the original question, but even through demonising abusers, i at least recognise that what they do is lie to themselves a lot, so i can recognise their illness in that way, a long string of lies which propagates- with a real and immediate conscious effort- to do thoughtless and disgusting things just to forfill their own selfish desires of sex, control and power.




Edited by M3 (10/14/08 08:15 PM)
Edit Reason: Added Trigger Alert
_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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#255211 - 10/14/08 08:05 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: king tut]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
I guess I kind of knew when I posted that last post that it would be misinterpreted. I am not making excuses for child molesters nor am I suggesting that what they do is in any way accidental or inadvertent.

I'm not even saying that I hate them any less than anyone else.

What I am saying is that hating child molesters has not proven to be an effective means of protecting children, and that we should not count those who, very possibly, ARE making a difference by working with them toward not re-offending as being
somehow pro-child molester. They are not being pro-child molester, they are being pro-children.

I really don't care how much you demonize child molesters, but I do care that those who work with them in an effort to protect children are being demonized along with the child molesters simply because they believe that the way society has thus far dealt with them is ineffectual!

Just as it's obvious that molesting children is wrong, it should also be obvious that what society has been doing about it for centuries now has not been working.

I'm not trying to deny anyone their cherished hatred of child molesters. I'm just saying that those who overcome their hatred enough to try something new in an effort to save children from being molested should not be cast as being somehow soft on sexual abuse or pro-child molester.

These people are trying to protect children. What are you doing?
I know what I'm doing. Nothing. I'm not doing jack. So what right do I have to condemn those who ARE doing something just because they are trying a new approach that has NOT had centuries to work but is still failing miserably?

And these people know that what they are doing will make them a target of people's misplaced hatred, but they do it anyway because they believe that what they are doing might make a difference and that is more important to them than not being hated.

That is heroic to me. And yes, there is help available to pedophiles but only because there are those people who are willing to get spit on in order to make a real difference.

And if defending those people gets me spit on too, fine. If you keep flipping a light switch and the light doesn't go on, do you keep working the switch in hopes that somehow the results will be different, or do you look for another way to solve the problem?


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#255227 - 10/14/08 08:52 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
I thought it was an excellent point Doug. Got ya all the way.

The only thing I can add is when I'm not vilified for BEING a survivor then we can work on help for the perp's.

I've been through trauma and I just recieved my parden, it was for possession of pot, stealing a diving board when I was 16 and a bar fight I got into when I was 21 (he had a black eye, no knifing or shooting or jumping on his head when he was down) I still can flashback to the things I've done and treat myself as some kind of unchangeable monster.

I think there is a difference, some of us make mistakes and some of us destroy lives. It does come down to a choice.

Even in my most darkest, suicidal, drugged up, raging stages, I wasn't about to get off on anothers pain. There are different types of people in this world.

Throw away the key? No WAY!! but I still want to be taken care of first.

Fuck man, I think we deserve it.

Perpetuation anyone? maybe a new topic eh?

Stay strong
Mike

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#255252 - 10/14/08 09:50 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: mogigo]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
If it was a matter of who deserves help more the survivor or the predator then of course the survivor deserves help more than the predator, but I don't think anyone is really interested in providing help for predators were it not for the fact that doing so may prevent children from being harmed.

Looking at it that way, it isn't a choice between survivors or predators being helped, it's more a choice between survivors being helped and children being protected. Both are extremely important and I really don't believe that we can't do both.


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#255259 - 10/14/08 10:02 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: mogigo]
M3 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
Mike,

Quote:

I still want to be taken care of first... I think we deserve it.


That, my friend, is one incredibly powerful statement.

So much attention is paid to how horrible these perpetrators are (and they are). We see it on the news and talk shows. We hear our political leaders use them to scare up votes. But we are left in their dust to fend for ourself with the support of other survivors. We seem to remain the taboo, the secret subject, even after we disclose.

You are right Mike. It's our time!

Michael


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#255261 - 10/14/08 10:04 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
king tut Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2466
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: blueshift
What I am saying is that hating child molesters has not proven to be an effective means of protecting children


No not as a preventitive means you are right, but it can act as a substitue to to affirm certain things to over rule false ideas in areas where there are no other satisfactory operators.

People have the right to hate, like you say, but not in some belittlement of "cherished hate" but a painfully earned right, and as a strong human emotion developed through evolution its presence should not be so quickly disregarded as an energy wasting out-dated function, it is a limited thing, but still useful. Some days i hate, some days i will let other thoughts rule, sure, hating doesn't help so much, but sometimes hating is needed, if only to affirm your own worth and their wrongness- to over rule the feelings of worthlesness that they inserted callously into you, and to over rule the position they held, their apparent correctness, power, superiority or whatever (Sure as a side note it is important, as they say, not to let your emotions own you, and control you, but for you to own your emotions, so that you can shape your life into something better, and something healthy). Anyway, so hate and understanding in the way that i've tried to describe can do a parallel job, to affirm certain things to over rule false ideas. With understanding, since there are no really satisfactory answers (which is why people demonise sometimes) it becomes a weaker substitute to hate, which is why hate returns. In a way it is sometimes either between hate, or the monster, or your own worthlesness, because if we only look at it from their view, the understanding, the list of maybes that i wrote earlier, maybe THEY...., then it is about them, which is how it is, but then there is no you, you don't exist, you didn't matter, you were an object, and it's circular and again they are heartless demons, because therefore they must be, because don't i suppose to be worth something? yes, you must understand that (insert abusers string of propagating lies to convince himself it is ok and try to provide an explanation that excludes your worthlesness), but that means (insert resultant implications of abusers self propagating lies which show that you were worthless to that person due to the persons lack of thought and care for you due to the selfish manner of his own self propagating lies), so i am worthless, then continue loop or instead demonise to find an understanding of how you could be treated like such a worthless being if you were not actually worthless. Of course there is the arguement that just because they thought you were worthless and treated you without care that doesn't mean you were worthless or deserved that (can you imagine such thing as a worthless child?) but then if the person is human then it is hard to compute, especially since abusers don't walk aroung with horns and fangs so it doesn't seem like they can be so completely wrong.

I think you are right blueshift that a few people may look curiously upon people who work with child molesters, but i think that is a knee-jerk reaction, i understand how good it is that professionals work with chid molesters to try to help them, people just need a bit of education, this is a foreign field to lots of people. But i still think it is good to condem child molesters with a decent portion of hatred, it IS a preventitive means to a certain extent, otherwise we have a pretty shit society, and if somebody abused my son it would anger me if everybody suddenly turned around and started wrapping the abuser in cotton wool and bubble wrap. Professionals can give them understanding, the public should set an example, moral, and to the people that suffered at their hands, by harbouring hatred for such heinous crimes.

Originally Posted By: blueshift
I'm just saying that those who overcome their hatred enough to try something new in an effort to save children


Society has a responsibility to try to stop these people, but absolutely no responsibility to stop hating the crime (which can maybe be differentiated from hating the person-depends on your view of accountability).

Anyway, i wasn't replying in my first post to anyone in particular, just generally.

Originally Posted By: blueshift
it should also be obvious that what society has been doing about it for centuries now has not been working.


Yes but because society hasn't been doing anything about child molesters for centuries, it wasn't talked about, and not because hatred has been used to try to be a sole preventitive mean, the only action taken in the past was don't talk about it and it doesn't exist.

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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#255266 - 10/14/08 10:15 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
we can't do baoth Doug? Funny, I'm not feeling represented at all. I'm living in you're perfect world Doug, I did say throw away the key, No WAY!!!. ...........but, I'll take the resources thanks.

Lets do this in a realistic way Doug.

Fuck Man, in my world an adult, NEVER!!!! thinks about fucking a child (sorry, way harsh and I'd put in the ***** but fuck that.

Doug please bro, know I heard every word from you, you make more sense than I've ever heard from the "save the world" side. But come on, lets get realistic Bro. We'll go there in a bit, I promise you!

I am that guy, but we've (you, I, and all my Bro's have some work to do first) We'll get to them in a bit.

Let's focus Bro. No perfect world's, no humanization, no "lord I believe shit". Right now, right here, right realistic. Lets work on that and get to those Bro's when we can.

You noticed I said Bro's Doug.

Focus Doug

Stay strong
Mike

PS: this has got pretty strong bro, PM me if you feel the need okay? But don't think I won't fight you right here and now.

Look above bro, stay........

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#255267 - 10/14/08 10:23 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: mogigo]
mogigo Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
I think the big money (resources) are with us. More can relate Bro, "I was abused, or My Dad smacked me and now I'm fucked, or my Mom was a bitch and now my mind just can't relate". Compared to "I want to fuck a child" I think we're way better off pushing our message rather than trying to get the populas to fund the populas who can relate to the Ped.

Perfect world, yes. I'm that guy. Were not living in a perfect world are we?

We'll get to you "people who fuck children", right now I'm doing what I can for those of us who don't.

We need guys like that, because "the world just ain't there"

..........PRIORITIES!!!!.............


Got mine

Mike

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#255299 - 10/15/08 12:38 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: mogigo]
blueshift Offline
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I guess I'm kind of having trouble making sense of a lot of this, but my general sense is that I am still being heard as saying that we shouldn't hate child molesters or that we should give them more consideration than we give survivors.

I am not saying either of those things. Since it seems to have been lost, let me reiterate that my support of those who work with predators is not out of any kind of sympathy whatever for predators.

PROTECTING CHILDREN!!!


You don't have to agree that working with predators is the best way to do that, but I am asking you to accept that THAT is what I am talking about and not molly coddling predators.

I don't give a crap about the feelings of predators. I only care that children are being victimized and that those who try something new in an effort to protect them are being unjustly labeled as child molester sympathizers.


I am not a child molester sympathizer and neither are those who
work with child molesters ON BEHALF OF THE CHILDREN THEY ARE TRYING TO PROTECT BY DOING SO.

Look, I don't care to argue about anything else. All I want is for that one point to be recognized. HATE CHILD MOLESTERS ALL YOU WANT!! I HATE THEM TOO! BUT DON'T HATE PEOPLE FOR TRYING TO PROTECT CHILDREN AND DON'T HATE ME FOR DEFENDING PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO PROTECT CHILDREN BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT'S ABOUT NOT BEING EASY ON CHILD MOLESTERS!


Excuse me for yelling but somehow it seems as though I am not being heard and I am running out of ideas as far as being more clear about this. That is the point I have been trying to make and that is all I care about getting across! Disagree with me all you want about other issues but please don't put me and my heroes who are doing what I could never do FOR THE SAKE OF PROTECTING CHILDREN on a level with child molesters!!!

THAT is what I am against..not hating child molesters--I'm not against that..not working towards more/better help for survivors--I'm not against that either!

.......PRIORITIES!!!!.......

PROTECTING CHILDREN!!!


THAT is the priority, NOT protecting child molesters from hurt feelings.

Am I clear about that or do I need to rephrase it again somehow?



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#255305 - 10/15/08 12:47 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
mogigo Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
One last past.

The best way to get The "normals" to understand is to get them to relate with the victim's not the perp's. Once we can get them to understand that all victim's will not become perp's then we can get them to understand??!! (sorry I'm not there yet myself) the thought's of the perp's.

I just feel like you're skipping a step, unless of course that you think the "normals" already understand us survivors.

But hey, lets work on explaining why perp's offend. I'm sure they'll understand that in no time flat.

Read the first line of my first post Doug

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#255310 - 10/15/08 12:56 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: mogigo]
dgoods Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
I just thought I'd chime in generally with my impressions/thoughts stirred by the thread... priority #1 is always "keep myself safe and as self-honest as possible"... trying to get my body, my heart, and my mind to all agree, has been one of the hardest struggles that's been a constant for me.

I'm filled with rage, fear and despair whenever memories of the man who abused me surface- yet also a certain detached perspective of pity and regret- the perception that if only someone somewhere in this man's life, had noticed how seriously wrong his thinking was, all of this pain and aftermath could've been avoided. In a sense, it doesn't matter how much of an offender's acts are/were the result of a consciously made choice, rather than the end-product of severe psychological abuse- the trauma experienced remains the same for the victim.
In another sense, i feel any effort to get the widest and deepest understanding of perps of any stripe can only help reduce their numbers. I realize this is a sensitive topic, even in the context of this site, and only ask that readers of this post understand that these are my thoughts at the moment- no more, no less.

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

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#255314 - 10/15/08 01:11 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: sunwolf]
Chester Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 48
Loc: Long Island, NY
This is the single best thread I have read on this site. There is no softening of language, holding hands, or hugging in between statements. I guess that would be tasteless, considering the topic. And it’s a topic always on my mind, as a survivor and someone who supervises sex offenders. Some of these posts hit home and some irked me. The best of you guys have challenged me, though. That’d be your comments, Doug, and Usmc97. It has been nearly a year since I last spoke to my mother. My anger and hatred towards her has been a survival mechanism that has somewhat shielded me from further abuse, but it really has accomplished nothing. Aside from learning how to steel myself to the constant questions from family and friends about what happened between my mother and I, I’ve gone nowhere in the past year. My Dad has gotten sick over this division and my telling him what she did to me. I find myself asking what do I do now?

Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
It's possible to be both a survivor and sex offender -- in fact I've never worked with a pedophile that wasn't abused as a child.


Andy, at the last conference, a study was referenced which involved the use of polygraphs and revealed more than half of sex offenders claiming to have been abused themselves flat out lied. Are the pedophiles statements that you worked with based on polygraphs or just their own word? If you are just going by what they have said, I suggest more research. wink

Originally Posted By: Usmc97
I have a strong view in that someone can't be both. Being abused DOES NOT turn a person into an abuser.

...it takes effort to be a pediphile.


Actions speak louder than words, for sure.

Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
USMC, you sure know a lot of facts without A) working closely with these people and/or B) living through it. I suggest more research.


wink

Originally Posted By: arronb
Personally I think neither view is defendable …
Not all sex offenders are exclusive brethren of the devil …
Not all ‘reformed’ offenders stay reformed …

I guess it’s a case by case decision … I personally think its a subject where one should always keep an open mind
...everyone deserves a second chance in life, people always make mistakes ...


Arron, this is more powerful than you might think. I hate my Mom, but I miss her as well. And she has made A LOT of mistakes. I just don’t think she’s reformed yet.

Originally Posted By: Usmc97
I have worked with "them", I also have had a lot of experience with perps and their behavioral issues.


Originally Posted By: ineffable
In what capacities & contexts?


I really don’t think we have to prove our histories to post our opinions. I know you were just trying to get usmc97’s point of reference, but I sounded like you were asking him to prove it. You didn’t ask Andy, and please don’t ask me!

Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
I know about 30 guys just off the top of my head that stay away from kids without the child's parent knowing of their pedophilia/offense.

They were very serious about recovering and 99.5% of them, that I knew at least, freely admitted to what they did and admitted (with a great deal of remourse) that it was wrong.


Again, if half your guys are lying to you, your numbers are way off, Andy. The program I work with, 100% of the offenders must admit their actions, or they fail treatment. And you have me concerned that the offenders you work with are socializing with parents of children and not telling them of their offender histories. That sounds like grooming behavior.

Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
...I feel what I say won't matter to anyone so I'll stop here...


Nonsense. If it seems anyone is bashing you, including me, it’s because you have struck a nerve. You’ve brought up a position worth fighting for. I’m starving for new ideas myself. I’m stuck in the middle. I’m tired of being angry, and I’m tired of people falling for and spouting the usual offender bullshit.

Originally Posted By: Bewlayb1
Do I sympathize with pedophiles who have been abused themselves? They might have lived perfectly normal lives otherwise. This horrible thing was forced on them, and they couldn't beat it. It's sad. It's tragic. But truly, I consider these people lost. I know that I would rather kill myself than harm a child. I can't really feel sorry for anyone who wouldn't do the same.


Originally Posted By: Usmc97
At any point if they did stop their ways, with however much remorse, they have still inflicted an unnatural pain and created a tormented life for someone else. But someone like me is supposed to applaud their apoligies?

...It's their shame, let them own it.



Originally Posted By: Blueshift
Right now, though, at least as far as I know, if a person who felt he/she was at risk of hurting a child tried to seek help before the tragedy occurs, that person would find that treatment was only available to those who had already offended plus they would then be labeled a monster by the same society that refuses them treatment because they have not yet offended. Does that make sense?

I have as much hatred in my heart as anyone towards those who abuse children but my hatred isn't protecting children. Those on the other hand, who are able to put their feelings aside and work with pedophiles and predators toward the goal of not offending...those people may be the ones who are really making a difference while me and my hatred do nothing.

...many of those people are doing something about the problem---not because they don't hate abuse, but because they can love children more than they hate pedophiles.


I hear old, stale hate in your comments, Doug. I think people missed that. I’m only just realizing that my anger and hate has accomplished nothing other than keeping frozen in one spot. It’s time I actually did something.

Originally Posted By: Usmc97
I don't say to hate, I'm just for strict responsibility. There is help for them.... counseling, accountability, education, their responsibility to not be around children PERIOD.


Originally Posted By: mogigo
The only thing I can add is when I'm not vilified for BEING a survivor then we can work on help for the perp's.


Originally Posted By: M3
…we are left in their dust to fend for ourself with the support of other survivors. We seem to remain the taboo, the secret subject, even after we disclose.


Originally Posted By: King tut
People have the right to hate, like you say, but not in some belittlement of "cherished hate" but a painfully earned right…


Originally Posted By: mogigo
We'll get to you "people who fuck children", right now I'm doing what I can for those of us who don't.


Working with offenders, I can’t tell you how pissed I am that there are little to no resources available for survivors, but there is a plethora of services and treatment programs for the offenders themselves. It’s almost cruel. The only agency near me offers services to both survivors and offenders. If I was to go for counseling there, I would run into the same guys I referred there! And when screen over the phone and when I replied no to any history of offending, the interviewer said I was lucky to have avoided that trap.

There still remains a very dangerous assumption, among the professionals in the field no less, that all offenders are victims, and that all victims will become offenders. Maybe that fiction is what I should work on?

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#255322 - 10/15/08 02:22 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: mogigo]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Originally Posted By: mogigo
One last past.

The best way to get The "normals" to understand is to get them to relate with the victim's not the perp's. Once we can get them to understand that all victim's will not become perp's then we can get them to understand??!! (sorry I'm not there yet myself) the thought's of the perp's.



I just feel like you're skipping a step, unless of course that you think the "normals" already understand us survivors.

But hey, lets work on explaining why perp's offend. I'm sure they'll understand that in no time flat.


I never spoke at all about getting ANYONE to understand perps.
I don't think anyone ever will understand perps including perps. That doesn't mean though that they are beyond help or treatment. We don't really understand a lot of things about the world we live in but it doesn't mean that we are powerless over it.
Originally Posted By: mogigo

Read the first line of my first post Doug


Yes, I read it. Problem is I kept on reading and what I read after that made me feel that you didn't get me at all because you were still suggesting that I was somehow placing abusers on a higher priority than survivors. That was NOT what I was trying to say at all.

I might have said a lot of things that can be agreed with or not, it doesn't matter, but it does matter to me that people are getting their hostilities all over people who don't deserve it.

Whether someone agrees or disagrees with the work that survivors like Andy do, survivors like Andy are not perps, are not perp sympathizers or perp apologists. They are just fellow survivors who have different ideas about the best way to protect children and they do not deserve to be looked at as being in the THEM category in the us and them dichotomy.

Believe me, I totally hear what you are saying about how shitty it is that survivors are all seen as perps. I am as against that as you are, and that is partly why I get annoyed when people talk as though a fellow survivor has some vested interest in protecting perps from hurt feelings because they have a different view of how to tackle the problem.

No one really knows with any certainty about what the best answer is---like I said, no one will ever understand what makes a perp perp. But someone should not be made to feel as though he is being painted as a perp or a perp sympathizer simply because he has a different opinion about the best way to keep kids safe.



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#255328 - 10/15/08 03:00 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: Chester]
blueshift Offline
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Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Originally Posted By: Chester

Working with offenders, I can’t tell you how pissed I am that there are little to no resources available for survivors, but there is a plethora of services and treatment programs for the offenders themselves. It’s almost cruel.


If you are pissed about the lack of resources for survivors, then I understand completely. But if you are pissed about the resources for offenders, I don't understand because they really aren't for offenders, they are for the children that the offenders are at risk of hurting.

And yes, I will admit that I have no certainty that these resources do actually do that, but aside from whether they do or don't, it isn't like some lovely gift to offenders that is denied to survivors--it's an attempt, whether misguided or not to protect kids.

Originally Posted By: Chester

The only agency near me offers services to both survivors and offenders. If I was to go for counseling there, I would run into the same guys I referred there! And when screen over the phone and when I replied no to any history of offending, the interviewer said I was lucky to have avoided that trap.


Now that is definitely messed up. Though I do believe that offenders should be treated too, I CERTAINLY don't think them and survivors should be treated TOGETHER! Whoever's idea THAT was needs a quick and sudden change of career! " uh, sorry, I have to cut your session short now, your rapist is here for his session." !? What kind of sh*t is that?! I'd be super pissed if I was getting counseling at a place like that!
Originally Posted By: Chester

There still remains a very dangerous assumption, among the professionals in the field no less, that all offenders are victims, and that all victims will become offenders. Maybe that fiction is what I should work on?


I agree. That needs to change. Assumptions are all too often just a handy substitute for thinking and dealing with things and people on a case by case basis. I'm sure even the assumption that all offenders can be treated is also a dangerous assumption. There are always exceptions.


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#255336 - 10/15/08 03:56 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
I'm not against the people who work with perps, it's the way that it is portrayed... that somehow there is hope in turning one of "them" into being safe. That "rehabilitation" is an effective option that can be passed along to perps to make them safe to be around a child. That there is redemption without any consideration to their victims. Their actions and offenses from the begining are not from lack of resources or places to go in order to prevent them inflicting harm. Defending them in saying that they are just human and have "problems" does not make them less of a monster. They destroy lives, "we" are not simular to "them". They are a whole different breed. Victim OR perp, one can't be both.... they could have been a victim prior to, but they cross that line and they can't return to being one of "us".

They are somewhere in the spectrum of being cowards, and being sick enough to not comprehend right and wrong. In any sense they are a danger. There is plenty of preventive care for them if they so wanted intervention.

It's an unrealistic hope, like world peace (sorry to break it to the tree huggers). The search for some perp gene in DNA or something. Justification for the answer we've all asked, Why? How could they? and not accepting simple truth.... They are predators like some animals are predators, they function the same ways show the same signs but with a lot of them are more deviant than any other species. It seems like that can't be accepted, it's clinical denial, professionals in denial.

Children are protected through adults in their lives being alerted to innapropriate behavior. There is an understanding of how perps work that is continually adjusted as years go by, they can be profiled and recognized by those who gain knowledge of what to look for and other training. There are plenty of "us" who naturally carry those talents.... the gift and curse. All of that is the best prevention to date until our society sees that there is no place for "them" in regards to children and that they should be segregated to where they can't hurt any kids or public ridicual in a clear way where they are marked to be recognized.

It's just that "they" are not a science experiment where it can be okay to make mistakes and imperfections. They can lie through treatment as well as any sociopath. If you've never met one of those that would be an eye opener..... there is no sense to how their mind works... they just are and they just do.

If I were strong enough I would probably be able to work with predators but my treatment would seem too harsh because I'd demand responsibility, effort, accountability, public admittance, zero confidentiality and privacy, restitution, ect. with no tolarance for any resistants to treatment and this would be a lifelong commitment to where they would never see a child again .... There is no place that holds them to all of that.

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The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255349 - 10/15/08 08:02 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: Chester]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Fine...I f*cking give up trying to help the world and these people to not hurt children...since it's so obvious it doesn't matter to you people or society...

For people that want the world to be free of victims, you all sure shoot yourselves in the foot here...by attacking someone trying to help STOP THIS...and I really question if you actually DO want no more victims -- like I do -- or you just want your anger intact at all costs?

Thanks for your condescending winks, Chester. You nailed the coffin shut.

You know the world isn't only about our feelings alone.

F**k this site, too....all it ever does it make me mad anymore. I wont bug you guys anymore and/or waste my time. So good job, Chester! You won! Congratulations! You got another protector of children to give up!

You too, USMC. Mission accomplished.



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Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#255356 - 10/15/08 09:02 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: dgoods]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6505
Loc: Terminus
One well defined rift between members here has always been this issue. Do we forgive them? Do will kill them? Do we beat them? Do we _______ them?

We all seem to take positions on our preferred reaction option and defend it with volleys like these. It reminds me of holy-wars and doctrine wars.

I hope we can focus on what unifies us rather than what separates us. We are all wounded men seemingly placed in the same room (here at MS). We all have our own reactions and plans for the outside world.

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#255365 - 10/15/08 09:55 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: Chester]
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Chester

Difficult immediately believing or accepting people presenting themselves as experts
especially if we are just to take their "opinions" at face value.

"hi little boy... I have a puppy in my van... wanna see?"

"uh Chester? I don't see any van"






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:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#255373 - 10/15/08 10:33 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: ineffable]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
If I may risk bringing in my experience of 30 years of working with abusers and male survivors....

This is a chapter from my book (hopefully soon to be published) that answers some of the issues kicked around in this thread. I hope it will help clarify rather than add gasoline to this potentially explosive thread.
Ken

Chapter 8

Why “Demonizing” Keeps Them Powerful


Sexual abusers are like bullies in many ways. They pick on people weaker or smaller than they are. They use their resources of size, strength, knowledge or authority to get what they want.

Common sense (and sometimes the advice of our parents) tells us to confront bullies because they are cowards at heart. If only it were that easy. On the one hand, we know intellectually that the bully is a coward (if he’s not, then why not pick on someone his own size or bigger?), but on the other, when we are that little kid confronted by the older and bigger bully demanding our lunch money, we do what we can to survive. There may also be a value or belief in the victim’s school or social network that says, “Don’t rat on anyone”. This can lead to the fear that the bully or his friends will retaliate against anyone who tells on them. And telling a teacher or other adult might bring on admonitions to the victim to resolve the problem himself.

Fortunately, American schools now have a better understanding of the effects of bullying on children. The Columbine shootings a few years ago drew many people into discussions on the effects of bullying, and numerous schools have instituted anti-bullying policies that include training for children and teachers. Similarly, the occasional would-be Columbine copycats remind the public that bullying has a serious negative effect on victims that sometimes manifests itself in violence, antisocial behaviors or even suicide. Not too long ago, a thirteen-year-old girl committed suicide after a fictional boyfriend she met online broke up with her after a series of abusive emails “he” had sent her. Tragically, the boyfriend was the creation of the mother of a classmate of hers.

The dilemma that exists for the child who was bullied or abused is that later in life, as an adult, he emotionally goes back to a childlike state when triggered by situations that recall old circumstances. The child who gave up his lunch money to the bully may revert to that childlike state when, as an adult, he is confronted by an aggressive panhandler asking for money. This situation now is not the same as when he was a child with less knowledge, power, or resources. Nevertheless, the adult who reaches into his pocket to find money for the panhandler may experience a pounding heart; he may sweat, and he may curse himself for giving in to the panhandler against his will.

However, he had a few other choices he could have made if he was thinking clearly as an adult rather than reacting emotionally as a child. He could have ignored the request and kept walking. He could have firmly told the panhandler, “No!”, and walked on. Instead, he emotionally became a child without the intellectual wherewithal to be assertive.

In this case, the panhandler was not the bully of this man’s childhood. Rather, this is a projection of a bad childhood experience. Projection is a common phenomenon in which we emotionally read a current situation in terms of an old experience, and the "trigger" that causes us to do this could be some characteristic of the old memory. Suppose, for example, an uncle with a red beard abused you as a child. Years later you may find yourself feeling uncomfortable whenever you are around someone with a red beard. If you are not aware of why you feel that way (“I don’t know why I don’t like anybody with a red beard”), you may find yourself uncomfortable around people with red beards. It may also be so hidden in your mind that you are not even aware that you have had a negative reaction to men with red beards, but somehow you react fearfully to them.

But suppose you have the awareness that your uncle (with the red beard) abused you. You may forego any family functions that he attends, you could attend but avoid him, or you might act around him as if nothing had ever happened. If the abuser still emotionally affects you, ask yourself if you are allowing him to have power over you. Does the fear of being in his presence, years after the abuse has ended, still affect you? Does it cause you to avoid situations where, from an adult intellectual perspective, you know you are not in danger?

Or do you find that you feel anxious and unsafe even though the abuser now lives far away from you and probably has no idea where you live? It is not unusual for a survivor to discover that the abuser died years ago, but then find that his fear of him continues unabated. This fear or discomfort is part of the effect of the abuse and the abuser taking a piece of your brain.


Fear Can Make the Abuser More Powerful

If the abuser seems larger than life, if he has power over you or controls your participation at family affairs, for example, you may be “demonizing” him. There was a classic science-fiction movie made in 1956 called “Forbidden Planet”. Without going into the entire plot, the gist of the story involves an invisible monster that is attacking the base camp set up by the “good guys” on a planet in another solar system. The heroes have come to rescue an earlier expedition that has been under siege by something.

Nothing seems to be able to stop the monster, who is picking off the astronauts one by one, and in a last ditch effort to survive, the remaining explorers who are under attack finally descend into what looks like a bank vault for protection from the creature. The monster is melting the thick steel door, but then someone realizes that the creature is the product of the chief scientist’s emotions, primarily fear and anger. His intense but generally hidden feelings are fueling the monster. As soon as he grasps this and lets go of his fear, the monster disappears. It dies, and the planet blows up after the rest of the cast is safely back in space.

In many ways, the “monster” that is your perpetrator is fueled by your fears, anger and self-defeating behaviors. The more power you give him in your mind, the more he has to control you. He probably rarely (if ever) thinks of you, but how often do you think of him or find yourself upset by the effects of the abuse he committed?

Although perpetrators will not likely know any of the problems a survivor endures years after the abuse has ended, the survivor is reminded of the abuse and the abuser much more frequently. The guilt, shame, and disgust the survivor feels about his self-defeating or self-destructive behaviors, such as overeating, substance abuse, etc., are constant reminders of the impact of the abuse. In reality, the power the abuser had over the child victim is no longer there. In the victim’s mind, however, the perpetrator is an all-powerful demon who still controls him.

The problems that the abuse created for the survivor may or may not be linked to the abuse itself. The survivor may be aware of his self-defeating problems and he may likely be aware that he was abused. However, this does not always mean that he will link the problem with the abuse. When he does, he may become angry at himself with fearful memories of the abuser. The abuser seems larger than life because at the time of the abuse he was larger than his victim. Remember, bullies don’t pick on people their own size or strength.

Many adult survivors are physically bigger and stronger than their abusers are today. They could literally “kick the abuser’s butt”. From a physical perspective, the adult survivor is now able to kick butt. From an emotional level, however, the adult survivor is still that vulnerable frightened child and thus gives the perpetrator the power to control him even today. He probably has an intellectual understanding that he is more powerful than he emotionally feels. But the abuser’s power is heightened in the survivor’s mind by fearful memories and anger that he often misdirects at the wrong persons, including himself.

It is easy to say, “Let go of the fear and anger.” That is almost in the same league as the advice many survivors get from family and friends stating, “Get over it”. (This term, by the way, can be a real trigger for some survivors. One writes that to say this “is to say that what was done to him was no big deal, that his pain doesn’t count, that the issues that confront him as a boy and then as an adult are of no particular consequence, and that he doesn’t have the right to expect support – even from those closest to him.”)

Although there are probably a small number of survivors who may find some comfort stuck in the role of victim, the overwhelming majority of survivors do not want to be controlled by the abuse or memories of the abuser.

One recurrent theme I see time and again is the periodic meeting with the abuser at a family function. Essentially, the survivor has a few choices. He can avoid the event. He can go there and try to avoid the abuser. He can tell or ask the abuser not to come there. He can also let the abuser know privately that he expects certain things and wants the abuser to respect those wishes. This last choice is likely going to need some prior communication and perhaps a confrontation ahead of time. (There is more detail on this in Chapters 14 and 15.)

When a survivor is able to tell the abuser how he wants him to interact or behave, or whether to be at a function, he is making a shift from dwelling on his fear in the past to exerting more control over his life in the present. He is empowering himself, and as he does so he reclaims for himself more and more of the control that the abuse and the abuser once had over him. This is about becoming assertive and is illustrated in Chapter 16, which will deal with an example of a successful confrontation.


They Fear You

In my work with abusers, I have found time and again that they are generally afraid of running into their victims years after they committed the abuse. Why is that?

You, the survivor, represent a threat to them. Think about it. You have the power, now as an adult, to expose them. Whether the threat of exposure rests in the family or the community, the stakes are high for abusers to maintain the secrecy. Public exposure brings the possibility of arrest, loss of job, scorn, or even a civil lawsuit. When you keep the abuse a secret for years after it happened, you are doing exactly what abusers want from their victims. They don’t want this disclosed because, contrary to what you might have believed as a child, they have more to lose than you do.

While statute of limitations rules can prevent a criminal prosecution or lawsuit for damages, many states have loosened the rules for initiating court action for victims of child sexual abuse. A civil or criminal suit, even if not successful, can be very costly to the perpetrator in terms of money and reputation. The cost of defending a criminal or civil action can be staggering. Think of the Michael Jackson case, also of how O.J. Simpson was acquitted in the criminal trial but lost in civil court.

I worked with a young man in his mid 20s who decided to sue his stepfather for civil damages. The statute of limitations prevented him from signing a criminal complaint against his stepfather, but under the circumstances, he was able to sue the man in civil court. This young man had suffered from depression for years following the abuse and had sexual identity issues that were straining his relationship with a girlfriend. He decided to retain a lawyer who, at considerable cost to the lawyer (it was a no-fee but percentage of the monetary judgment), built a formidable case against the stepfather. Defending himself from this suit was very expensive for the stepfather. Although I don’t know whether the primary motivation for this survivor was money or the satisfaction that his stepfather was publicly exposed as a sexual abuser, it was empowering for him to finally get the upper hand.

A number of times over the years, offenders in my groups have talked about the concerns they have over the possibility of running into one of their victims on the street. In a way, it puts them in a defensive position they do not wish to be in. Even if there is no court action, they generally don’t know what they would say if a victim confronted them.

One man I’ve worked with saw his childhood abuser on the street years later in the small town where the two lived. The abuser noticed the man and although he didn’t say anything to him, it seemed that he wanted to avoid this survivor. The survivor was fearful and upset when he saw the abuser for the first time. His reaction in this first encounter was almost childlike. He was afraid and said that both seemed to need to escape from each other. After we talked about it, he saw the abuser again a few weeks later and had a different reaction this time. Although not comfortable enough to say anything to the abuser, he felt more self-assured and pointed out the abuser to a policeman who was driving by. Though he was not sure why he did this, he told the officer that the man had abused him when he was a young teenager. In a way, he felt that he had exposed his abuser to the authorities, even if no legal action could be taken.

The third time he saw his abuser on the street, the abuser was talking to a teenage boy and this man felt his anger rising, wondering if the perpetrator was trying to set something up with the boy. He gave the abuser a “death stare” and the abuser quickly walked off. This man is now confident that he will say something to the abuser, an elderly man these days, the next time he sees him.

What’s especially significant here is that the anger he felt was no longer directed to himself, as it had in the past. Instead, he used it on the second occasion to talk to the police about the abuser, and gave the perpetrator a “death stare” the third time he saw the man. This represents the survivor becoming more assertive rather than acting like the helpless child he once was.

Think about how the abuser is likely to react should the two of you meet by chance somewhere. He is more likely to fear you than to direct any aggressive behavior at you. This is borne out by my experience with abusers, and it is pretty unlikely that the abuser would take the opportunity to try to intimidate the survivor, particularly not as he might have done years ago, when the abuse took place.

A number of American states and provinces in Canada, as well as the United Kingdom and other countries, have changed statutes of limitation in sexual abuse cases in the past few years. Notably, religious institutions have also responded to decades-old claims of abuse by survivors and may also take responsibility to help pay for treatment perpetrated by members of the clergy.

In New Jersey a survivor of clergy abuse, Mark Crawford, lobbied his state senator and other politicians to change the state’s charitable immunity law. After several years of effort, he was able to get the law revised so victims of charitable institutions, such as churches and private schools, could be sued for abuses made by their staff. He felt that by going public with his abuse history, he was no longer allowing the secret to keep him silent and he mobilized his anger into changing the law. The best way to find out whether you can sign a criminal charge or bring civil suit against the perpetrator is to check the statute of limitations in the jurisdiction where the abuse occurred.

It is also important to have good support from family and/or friends if you are going to undertake such an action. Remember, the perpetrator has the most to lose in any exposure. The childhood belief that the boy would be vulnerable to exposure as “being gay” for “participating” in the abuse is really insignificant compared to the possibility of arrest, media reports, prison, financial settlements, exposure to his family, and Megan’s Law (sex offender) registration for the perpetrator. So think about it. Is the fear of being labeled “gay” worse than a perpetrator being exposed and being publicly branded as a sexual abuser or predator? The truth here – again – is that the abuser has much more to fear and to lose than the survivor.

Remember, the abuser wants desperately to keep the abuse a secret. The power you have to expose him is quite considerable. If you want to expose him and get the upper hand, please do so in a way that keeps the process under your control. Chapter14, on disclosure and confrontation, should be required reading before undertaking a potentially turbulent but rewarding effort.

However you deal with your anger and fear of the perpetrator, do bear in mind that the ultimate objective here is to regain control so you can focus on your own recovery. Unfortunately, many survivors are so caught up in their anger and fear of the perpetrator that they neglect their own healing. Some survivors put a lot of energy into ranting against perpetrators, hoping to expose them and make life as difficult for them as possible. Revenge may feel satisfying, but if it is sought at the expense of healing yourself it may not be very productive.


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#255374 - 10/15/08 10:33 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: ineffable]
sunwolf Offline


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 225
Loc: Indiana
Wowwww..I didn't know i was stirring this controversy when i posted my 1st post about this...but It's been very educationg reading all the post...i have not yet come with any soulution for myself but there are certain things we need to clarify:

1st not all child molesters or abusers are adult males..in my case it was my brother and my cousins all underage as me

2nd: not all victims are children..we have seem here adults that were abused and raped

3rd: not every vicitim of child abuse become an abuser but certainly some do...

4th we need to make more efforts on PREVENTION!!! The 1st right of a vicitim is not becoming ONE!!!

5th: sexual repression and misunderstanding in our society creates many sex offenders

6th: the root of all of these (child molestation and abuse other than sexual) is violence in our society

7th: there is much abuse in the world other than sexual (war, miltiary mines that hurt children, child labor, child hunger, child neglet, child soldiers, etc etc etc)..those are abused children too...

lets keep the dialogue open...




Edited by sunwolf (10/15/08 10:35 AM)

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#255385 - 10/15/08 11:15 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: sunwolf]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Guys,

This is a powerful thread on an explosive issue and I think it raises some useful issues and points from a variety of perspectives. But let's focus on the dialogue aspect of the discussion rather than on the differences of opinion that are bound to arise. We all have good and valid reasons for feeling the way we do; please grant that to the other guy as well.

Let's also watch out for comments that can be taken personally, and at the same time recognize that on a subject like this others are bound to dispute your point no matter where you stand on the issue. Let's try to avoid either expressing disagreement as an attack or interpreting it as an attack.

Larry, aka roadrunner
ModTeam Coordinator

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#255390 - 10/15/08 11:27 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: roadrunner]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
From someone who has purposely stayed out of this debate - POINT WELL MADE, Larry

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

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#255394 - 10/15/08 11:43 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: roadrunner]
ineffable Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1371
Loc: state of holeecrapdood
Originally Posted By: roadrunner
But let's focus on the dialogue aspect of the discussion


Can we expand on this a bit?

For the purpose of dialogue, when someone (other than a Mod) makes statements speaking for other people here (including quotes)
& groups of people (look at the original thread title) we shouldn't take it personally.

How else should we take it?

There's a great picture of cauliflower sheep in the "Don't play with your food" thread on the member's side.

"baaaaaa"

_________________________
:: "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make us see a thread which is not there" ::


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#255404 - 10/15/08 12:53 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: ineffable]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
My whole thing is the assumption that predators are in the same catagory as "us". That the ones who were abuse as kids are some kind of hybrid of "us" and "them" and the theories that give excuse or leiniency to their behaviors.

How does a victim of any crime take to being looked at as comparible to the offending party? Professionals that work with both predators and their victims can get jaded to what they do just because of them wanting to help everybody.

There is no connection in that the abuser was abused and the assumption that they are still one of "us", "they" can't be both, "they" are not our peers. A HUGE SO WHAT to what was done to them and a HELLO to what they have done!!!! They hurt a kid and that changes everything. There are plenty of people in the world who have innapropriate thinking but the majority of those people seek ways to control themselves so that they are not a danger.

I don't see it as an opinion because I am not a predator and I am not closely related to being a one in ANY way, should I accept being told that I'm one missing link away just because some see hope in "fixing" a predator? At what point in their "recovery" is it safe for them to be with children? If someone is willing to put kids in danger to try to find that out they have whole other set of ethical issues. That is why it is impossible to say that a perp can be reformed. They can only be controlled, trained, and supervised.


_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255405 - 10/15/08 01:05 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
sunwolf Offline


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 225
Loc: Indiana
usmc97...i can agree with you in many parts of your post , but what I am concerned is how can we prevent it form hapening? controlled etc is after the fact...we need prevention as much as we can...



Edited by sunwolf (10/15/08 01:08 PM)

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#255433 - 10/15/08 03:20 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: sunwolf]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
With kids who show signs of developing into predators it should be addressed in there therapy sessions by their respective professionals. They should know where to find the resources they need but in the end, sad to say, you can only deter them from going the wrong route in life. I'd say they'd need constant supervision, education, and accountability.

On the adult aspect.... "At risk" individuals need to come forward prior to offending. I don't say that they intend to think the way that they do, they just do. There is a minority of them who do make every effort to not offend which the things I've stated would help in supporting them in that aspect.

There are resources for those who have innapropriate thoughts and feelings toward kids. It's a responsibility on their part to seek help not for "us" to hold there hand and be accepting of their "faults". It's a big lie that they don't have anywhere to go.

There are resources where they are educated to every aspect of what they are capable of inflicting on another person and prevention but that all lies on there responsibility. I can't trust a person like that to take care of themself so I call for enforcement of those prevention techniques. What's wrong with that?. "It encringes on their human rights and privacy".... there's a bigger priority for the safety of the masses of children out there.

If someone on the outside wants to be proactive you really do have to treat a lot of them like predatory animals though, by setting traps to catch them like they've done with sting operations that have taken place state to state. Those ones that get caught are always going to say it was their first time. They have a predatory instinct to seek and get what they want. If you sat in on an offender class you can tell how many are really there because they are battling it versus those who don't give a @%$@!

Prevention is translating to control here and that is just not realistic or my plans would be utilized. You can't force them to come forward prior to, it's voluntary by them. To the brave few that do to seek help, I'd congradulate and give support... from a distance being me but I don't have anything against them until they disregard their responsibility or offend including those that were hurt as kids themselves. Once they do onto others they are no longer a "survivor" or a victim. THEY have chosen THEIR identity, it's not that we have labled them.


_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255450 - 10/15/08 04:56 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Excellent!

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#255452 - 10/15/08 05:07 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: reality2k4]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I've known several who've taken responsibility for themselves and what they did, but what I say is being ignored by most here so forget it....hear what you all wanna hear and enjoy ....

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#255465 - 10/15/08 05:58 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: sunwolf]
joelRT Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 1357
Loc: Québec, Canada
...and your suggestions are :

1)..........
2)..........
3).........., etc.

_________________________
My Story 1
My Story 2
The longest journey we take is to self-discovery

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#255480 - 10/15/08 07:25 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
I posted here and then decided I was tired of the debate so please disregard.







Edited by blueshift (10/16/08 01:23 AM)
_________________________
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#255547 - 10/16/08 01:37 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
My take on accountability is a strict conformity to discipline. I was trying to use the term for lack of a better word. The purpose is the continual attatchment of burden to be held upon the individual by utilizing strict enforcement.

In this case it is set to a specific kind of people who need constant oversight with no room for leiniancy. Any of them who believe they can handle it on their own are probably among the most dangerous. For offenders this would have already been proven true.

The parameters are set and there would be zero tolarance for not living up to the requirements set before them. Pass or fail on each aspect to where every failure to comply results in a corresponding punishment and constriction to their daily living.

For someone who DOES have a lot of self control and humility it would barely phase their daily living because they would already be living up to that standard. The requirements are attainable and structured to the betterment of the individual and safety of the public.

It's very doable, different than a military life but kind of built around the same ideals where there is a clear standard of conformity.

The burden should not be on "us" the victimized. This is prevention.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255552 - 10/16/08 02:24 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Originally Posted By: usmc97
My take on accountability is a strict conformity to discipline. I was trying to use the term for lack of a better word. The purpose is the continual attatchment of burden to be held upon the individual by utilizing strict enforcement.

In this case it is set to a specific kind of people who need constant oversight with no room for leiniancy. Any of them who believe they can handle it on their own are probably among the most dangerous. For offenders this would have already been proven true.

The parameters are set and there would be zero tolarance for not living up to the requirements set before them. Pass or fail on each aspect to where every failure to comply results in a corresponding punishment and constriction to their daily living.

For someone who DOES have a lot of self control and humility it would barely phase their daily living because they would already be living up to that standard. The requirements are attainable and structured to the betterment of the individual and safety of the public.

It's very doable, different than a military life but kind of built around the same ideals where there is a clear standard of conformity.

The burden should not be on "us" the victimized. This is prevention.


Looks like you must have been responding to my post at the same time I was deleting it. lol I don't know enough about it to really say, but what you are describing sounds to me like what is already being done with sex offenders..at least the ones who are placed into the community under supervision, but like I said, I'm not knowledgeable about that so I could be wrong.

At any rate, I'm losing interest in this subject now. I'm having enough trouble figuring out my own problems so I think I'll have to leave fixing the world to someone else for now.



_________________________
My Story
My Art

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#255556 - 10/16/08 03:30 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: sunwolf]
Chester Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 48
Loc: Long Island, NY
Ineffable, thanks for pointing out such an obvious point as trust that I was too arrogant to realize. Forgive me.

And Andy, please forgive me if I have insulted you. My winks were not meant to mock you, and my questions about your data/sources are sincere. I was very clumsy at trying to be playful with a really tough topic. If I seemed most critical of you and your work, again I apologize if it seemed I was attacking you personally. Please do not stop posting. I really do feel this is an awesome thread, and you, as well as everyone else posting here are HELPING me.

Like I said, I too work with sex offenders. However, as a survivor dealing with my own anger towards my mother, who abused me, I am tired of hating and being angry. Your comments and assertions are challenging me to do something more than just be angry. I was too busy quoting all these powerful posts and in my own head to get my own point across clearly. I'm at a point where I need to do something different, something productive. Hating served a purpose for me for a time, but I have no use for that now.

And what the heck, no one challenged my own data! The only time I have heard it mentioned about how half of all offenders lie about being victims was at the conference last year. I haven't found any further information about it, though I have looked. The person who brought it up worked for the FBI, however. I, too need to do more research to get these specifics, and I should have pointed that out when I suggested you do more research, too, Andy. I think we all do. From law enforcement, to judges, to therapists as well as offenders, none of us can get our stories straight.

Again, please forgive me if I offended anyone. I think we all agree on more things here than we realize, we just have very different ways and reasons for forming our opinions, and writing them down.

_________________________
rock: left pocket

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#255629 - 10/16/08 02:23 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: Chester]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
What is being done now with the actual offenders is that they are allowed back into the communities, given responsibilities which they can't carry on their own accord, and trusted that they have been in some way reformed through the limited treatment they recieved while incarcerated.

How many times do you hear that one of them failed to register as a sex offender? Why are things like that left up to them when it should be attatched at sentencing and carried by them through the rest of their life. Some entity should automatically register them, tell them exactly where they are going to live, etc. Their should be no reason why one of them is lost by whatever governing system or that probation should ever run out. Their is no redeeming quality to say that they have been "good enough" to be self reliant.

The idea of supervision when they are registered is them having the responsibility to check in with someone and take more sex offender classes, just a list of things for them to check off. Their is no real enforcement or strategy like I've been trying to explain. I just get so tired of excuses for them.... they have no where to go, they're mentally ill, they were hurt as kids, they didn't know any better, they didn't mean to cause harm, etc. anything to try and plea for their actions. Later on it's... they've served their time, they have rights too, they deserve a second chance, everybody makes mistakes, etc.

In all of this the most dangerous thing is having them back in the communities where they are surrounded by their prey even with the public announcements. You don't put an alcoholic in a bar and trust them not to drink anything. With sex offenders it can be worse because their are plenty of them who can just get off by seeing a kid. I hate the thought that any kid is even looked at with that lust. They shouldn't see a kid for the rest of their life..... they failed to be safe and that is their consequence. Extreme??? Hell yes!

My view of prevention for offenders is not to give them ANY opportunity to hurt another kid. It's not hate but logic... if they don't want to hurt another child, this would make sure they accomplished that goal especially for the minority of them who are sincere.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255631 - 10/16/08 02:26 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado

Love, safety, and security are necessities to human beings and which of those three do "we" have issues with because of what was done to us? It's all three for me. Because we were hurt do we inflict it on another generation? "We" much rather hurt ourselves than hurt a child. "They" would rather hurt a child and feel guilty, gratified, or whatever afterwords and preserve themself.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255650 - 10/16/08 04:20 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: Chester]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
****When I finished this post I found new posts had been made and since i didn't use the quote feature, I'll just say here that this was in response to Chester's last post.*******
**************************************************************
One thing that seems pretty certain about, not just offenders, but about all human beings is that we have more trouble thinking clearly about things that upset us.

Yesterday I read a post on another board by an abused teen that first made me cry and then made me want to come back to this thread and delete or reverse my position on everything I said about the possible value of working with offenders.

Of course all the stories I read are extremely upsetting/triggering, but some just make everything I've gone through look like a walk in the park and hit all the right buttons to make me so furious I can hardly see straight.

But as I started to think these dark rage-filled thoughts it occurred to me that I was beginning to enter the same nihilistic world-view that is what I tend to think offenders live in.

Since I can't wrap my mind around the notion of offenders actually managing somehow to rationalize their way into convincing themselves that what they do is somehow acceptable, I'm more prone to see those people as having simply discarded the needto rationalize or convince themselves that it's acceptable.

I mean, if their sexual wiring or their need for power and control supersede their basic human compassion, all that's left to make them act differently is a sense that ideas like justice, fairness or morality are valid and if that gets tossed out the window---either by a conscious process of sh*tty philosophy or just by reaching that level of cynical apathy, there is nothing left at all to bother them about it.

You could preach to them forever about how wrong what they are doing is and they just hear "blah blah blah blah". You can tell them about the psychological/emotional damage they cause and they just hear "blah blah blah blah" same as I would if I was listening to one of them spout some nihilistic offender-mind BS.

Anyway, to wrap up my point, it seems like the easiest thing to do to loose my own values in my rage over someone else's lack of them. I guess this only differs from the old "don't stoop to their level" argument only in that, in addition to that, I am saying that if we don't recognize the role our anger plays in our ability to think, we may not have a choice!








Edited by blueshift (10/16/08 04:23 PM)
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#255653 - 10/16/08 04:38 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
blueshift Offline
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Originally Posted By: usmc97
What is being done now with the actual offenders is that they are allowed back into the communities, given responsibilities which they can't carry on their own accord, and trusted that they have been in some way reformed through the limited treatment they recieved while incarcerated.

How many times do you hear that one of them failed to register as a sex offender? Why are things like that left up to them when it should be attatched at sentencing and carried by them through the rest of their life. Some entity should automatically register them, tell them exactly where they are going to live, etc. Their should be no reason why one of them is lost by whatever governing system or that probation should ever run out. Their is no redeeming quality to say that they have been "good enough" to be self reliant.

The idea of supervision when they are registered is them having the responsibility to check in with someone and take more sex offender classes, just a list of things for them to check off. Their is no real enforcement or strategy like I've been trying to explain. I just get so tired of excuses for them.... they have no where to go, they're mentally ill, they were hurt as kids, they didn't know any better, they didn't mean to cause harm, etc. anything to try and plea for their actions. Later on it's... they've served their time, they have rights too, they deserve a second chance, everybody makes mistakes, etc.

In all of this the most dangerous thing is having them back in the communities where they are surrounded by their prey even with the public announcements. You don't put an alcoholic in a bar and trust them not to drink anything. With sex offenders it can be worse because their are plenty of them who can just get off by seeing a kid. I hate the thought that any kid is even looked at with that lust. They shouldn't see a kid for the rest of their life..... they failed to be safe and that is their consequence. Extreme??? Hell yes!

My view of prevention for offenders is not to give them ANY opportunity to hurt another kid. It's not hate but logic... if they don't want to hurt another child, this would make sure they accomplished that goal especially for the minority of them who are sincere.


Point well made! I would only add that, possibly--and here again, I could be wrong, part of the problem in creating a system with that much needed manpower and funding is the general hatred of offenders and the sentiment that they should not be released at all into the community but locked up for life.

Of course this is based on impressions not hard facts...I haven't taken any polls or gathered any statistics, but I know that the overwhelming majority of people I have heard voicing their opinion on the subject have talked only about how they should be castrated, executed or locked up for life.

PS. The above was not referring to opinions expressed on the board so much as conversations I have had or overheard from people I have been around over the years.





Edited by blueshift (10/16/08 04:46 PM)
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#255660 - 10/16/08 05:26 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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USMC's "facts" are all based on his opinion and no evidence, scientific or otherwise. Even the department of justice admits that the recidivism rate is very low for sex offenders.

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the recidivism rate of sex offenders is "5.3 percent of sex offenders (men who had committed rape or sexual assault) were rearrested for another sex crime..." (1)

Does 5.3 percent (or 94.7 percent that never go on to abuse again) warrant special "camps" for 100 percent of them?

And why not put other criminals into these camps because they also may hurt others after their arrest? Who decides what criminal goes and what doesn't? Where does it stop? Where is the line?

It's all very complicated and making it simple like saying "they should all go" is illogical and ethically wrong, I feel.

Is the kid who's 18 and sleeps with his 16 year old girlfriend with a psycho dad deserving of The Camp?

Is the fellow who committed his offense 20 years ago, served his time, completed years of treatment and is offense-free for all those years deserving of The Camp?

And the reality is that all of this doesn't only effect the sex offender, but also his or her family...and especially his or her kids, if he has them. They are subject to a lot violence and hate from the community because of what their parent did, and possible injury because your sentiments fuel the rage even more and of course gives them moral authority.

So are those kids worth protecting? Or just "some" kids?

Don't believe me? Ask the guy who lost his wife and almost lost his toddler-aged daughter to 2 men burning his house down in Tennessee. Know what people did? They cheered for the two men.

(1) http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/rsorp94pr.htm

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#255671 - 10/16/08 06:36 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: AndyJB2005]
blueshift Offline
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Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
USMC's "facts" are all based on his opinion and no evidence, scientific or otherwise. Even the department of justice admits that the recidivism rate is very low for sex offenders.

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the recidivism rate of sex offenders is "5.3 percent of sex offenders (men who had committed rape or sexual assault) were rearrested for another sex crime..." (1)

Does 5.3 percent (or 94.7 percent that never go on to abuse again) warrant special "camps" for 100 percent of them?

And why not put other criminals into these camps because they also may hurt others after their arrest? Who decides what criminal goes and what doesn't? Where does it stop? Where is the line?

It's all very complicated and making it simple like saying "they should all go" is illogical and ethically wrong, I feel.

Is the kid who's 18 and sleeps with his 16 year old girlfriend with a psycho dad deserving of The Camp?

Is the fellow who committed his offense 20 years ago, served his time, completed years of treatment and is offense-free for all those years deserving of The Camp?

And the reality is that all of this doesn't only effect the sex offender, but also his or her family...and especially his or her kids, if he has them. They are subject to a lot violence and hate from the community because of what their parent did, and possible injury because your sentiments fuel the rage even more and of course gives them moral authority.

So are those kids worth protecting? Or just "some" kids?

Don't believe me? Ask the guy who lost his wife and almost lost his toddler-aged daughter to 2 men burning his house down in Tennessee. Know what people did? They cheered for the two men.

(1) http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/rsorp94pr.htm


I guess I really need to stay out of this conversation all together right now because, sad to say, my knowledge on these things is next to nothing really. I don't doubt what you said here Andy, I'm just realizing that I'm talking too much about a subject I know next to nothing about.

It's good that I am following this thread though for just that very reason. I have a lot of thoughts on the subject but more and more I realize that many of those thoughts are based on impressions and not on hard fact.

Then 2, as I stated earlier, emotions cloud my thinking. If you had asked me what I thought about the whole thing yesterday during the space of about an hour after I read a particularly upsetting post I might have said something like "Forget everything I said! This sh*t has to stop! Just give the gd sons of bitches lethal injection!!!" I'm sure I would have flip flopped again after that quite quickly but it goes to show how emotional I am about it.

I cooled down after that and then started having the thoughts I expressed in my last, or rather 2nd to last post, but I am almost like two people here. One is my emotional self who is still full of rage at my own abuse and that self is easily triggered by reading about the inhumane atrocities committed against others. That self is in complete rebellion against the other self---the mental self that knows that my thinking on the subject should not be ruled by my feelings about it.

One self would say "Put them to death!" the other would say all the things I have been saying. For the most part I like to think I am self aware enough to keep giving the controls to the mental self, but I have to admit that right after reading that kid's post I really didn't know what I thought any more. I could only think about how that kid had been tortured, injured and hunted by his abusers and still the main concern in his post was for how his own pain might effect his younger brother who had a serious illness and had also been abused.

It really is hard to think clearly about this stuff with so much emotion that is in direct conflict with my thoughts.
It brings me back to the realization that the solution often begins within. When I have worked out my anger, only then can I trust myself to think clearly and consistently about a subject like this.


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#255681 - 10/16/08 07:34 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
lungfish Offline
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Registered: 09/26/08
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Loc: nowhere special nj
I hear what your saying Doug. I have been following this thread very closely and my thoughts are all over the place. I can relate to all feelings and sides of this. Sometimes my hate of child sex abusers is overwhelming and I think they should just be killed like they are in most prisons. I greatly applaud those that make an effort to try to make kids safe by working with perps. I could not do that.
There was a man in a chinese prison for being a buddist monk. Being interviewed after his release he was asked if he was scared. He said that he was one time during one of his many beatings, he almost lost his compassion for his captors. I would like to be that way one day although I'm not holding my breath. Perhaps in my next lifetime. Peace. Pete

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#255685 - 10/16/08 08:21 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: lungfish]
RICK57 Offline
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The other question is 'how many, i.e. what percentage of abusers ever get arrested in the first place'? Of those that have been arrested, the vast majority are multiple abusers that only stopped when they got arrested. They are shit scared of going back to jail, that's the reason why some of the abusers that have been jailed don't get caught again. Many of them leave jail, and try to adopt new identities. They are also quite often reported in the media hanging around childrens playgrounds.

I took the thing that groomed and abused me to Crown Court, that one didn't get away with it, but there were dozens of victims. How many have got away scot free, and are still abusing after decades of doing so. The pervert that groomed and abused me denied everything until the last minute, until the evidence became overwhelming. The admission only came as a ploy to reduce sentencing. It worked (jail the judges as well I say).

If they can be rehabilitated, how many of you would let them babysit your children, nieces or nephews??? Neither would I!

Best wishes ...Rik

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#255693 - 10/16/08 09:36 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: AndyJB2005]
usmc97 Offline
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Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
USMC's "facts" are all based on his opinion and no evidence, scientific or otherwise. Even the department of justice admits that the recidivism rate is very low for sex offenders.


First off I don't appreciate the attack, I AM EVIDENCE as with those of "us" who have come forward.

I'll use the "otherwise" for now. The best proof I have is that of my life and the lives of the gentlemen on this website. All of the other "proof" is secondary, not irrelevant but secondary because statistics are speculative. They do not have a control subject when it comes to child predators.

Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the recidivism rate of sex offenders is "5.3 percent of sex offenders (men who had committed rape or sexual assault) were rearrested for another sex crime..." (1)

Does 5.3 percent (or 94.7 percent that never go on to abuse again) warrant special "camps" for 100 percent of them?


Really? That just says that within that 94.7 percent there is another lost statistic because you can not honestly determine how many you say never go on to hurt another kid again. You go off on tangents to include other kinds of criminals in hopes to make light of what you want everyone to believe. This statistic is based on those who are caught. Find a statistic on how many child molesters never get caught, it's near impossible to make up a number and give a true account. Not one of my 40 plus perps were ever caught to my knowledge. They didn't have a problem repeating things on me and most likely other victims. Can you tell me how all of them fit within your analysis of the information you've gained? Look for a statistic that states how many victims each child predator has.... can't find a true one of that either.

Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
And why not put other criminals into these camps because they also may hurt others after their arrest? Who decides what criminal goes and what doesn't? Where does it stop? Where is the line?


I haven't talked about "camps", I've been talking about places where they are unmistakably away from causing harm to another child to include never seeing a child again. I've already stated that it is an extreme but hey, that guarantees the safety from them. They can live their lives, away from kids. Tell me? What's wrong with that? Fit's the crime. I've also kept the subject to child predators, not general rapist, statutory stuff, or other criminal offenses. You have a thing for leiniency and acceptance to their offenses that I do not understand. Prove one of "them" being completely "cured".... remember you'd have to do that without subjecting children to test the waters. Don't know how you're going to provide evidence to that argument.

Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
Is the fellow who committed his offense 20 years ago, served his time, completed years of treatment and is offense-free for all those years deserving of The Camp?


Yes, that person should be watched for the rest of their natural life. I am not willing to leave that person to his own recognizance in anticipation that they are somehow "cured". All those accomplishments somehow guarantee the sobriety of this individual? How? One of these individuals who sincerely is remorseful for this stuff would be willing to accept consequences of their actions. We carry life sentences for the things that "they" have done. Why should they not have the burden of being reminded and repremanded for what they have done as long as we are? This has nothing to do with forgiveness..... it's cause and effect.

Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
And the reality is that all of this doesn't only effect the sex offender, but also his or her family...and especially his or her kids, if he has them. They are subject to a lot violence and hate from the community because of what their parent did, and possible injury because your sentiments fuel the rage even more and of course gives them moral authority.


Whoever that person is should not have put their family in danger but I only get part of the story so I will say the first things that come to mind on that. Should he have been back at home with, uhm, children? You call that protecting his kids in the first place?

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#255707 - 10/17/08 12:01 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
LN3(SS) Offline
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Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 486
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I am REALLY not appreciating the attacks on Andy's character. How about we knock it off?

As survivors, we should be supportive of each other while being able to express disagreement in a calm way with friendship toward everyone.

Personally, I lean more towards Andy's beliefs. I don't agree all the way, but he does make some valid points. I can also see where the best balance has been struck in the current registration and notification laws.

Don't get me wrong, I do HATE my predator. I have said in other threads what my greatest wish is for him. But since he is living among us, I would hope that if he is ever charged and convicted of a sex offense, that he would be monitored closely.

Brian

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#255711 - 10/17/08 12:34 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: LN3(SS)]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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What if laws were based on emotion?

For example: I hate some alcoholics, they made parts of my life very sad, so I should be able put anyone away forever for drinking -- because, hey, I hate alcoholism.

Another: I get angry at guys in fancy cars that nearly hit me while I'm crossing an intersection because they are talking on the cell phone. They deserve my wrath just because I say so.

I'm glad angry mobs don't make laws in our society.

I'm afraid of a world without redemption. frown

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#255719 - 10/17/08 01:49 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: AndyJB2005]
usmc97 Offline
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Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Alcoholics who hurt someone should never be allowed to drink. Simple. Not because you dislike them but because they committed a crime. Once again you're jumping around the issue, stick to the problem of predators.

Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
USMC's "facts" are all based on his opinion and no evidence....

And who attacked who's character???

Because I can say things with out compromise, I'm an enemy? Because I'm non-tolerant, I'm a raging fool? Tolerance is what feeds current society's way of dealing with problems like this and either people are afraid of change or are afraid of what will be percieved for doing the right thing. I have other things to fear and those aren't included.

I give you something that has guaranteed results, that's attainable, not real far fetched. I live by a standard of living and don't find it very hard and that is aside from all of the problems my perps inherently put on my shoulders. The assumption that everything is out of anger on this site and around this subject really irritates me. I would say if I am angry like I have before, my emotions haven't had much to do with this aside from the doubt of my credibility. I'm not the one that made anything personal.

If you want to identify me as your angry little mob that's a problem you need to deal with because it is your opinion of me. I am not angry yet.

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#255726 - 10/17/08 02:33 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
blueshift Offline
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Originally Posted By: usmc97

And who attacked who's character???



Originally Posted By: usmc97


You have a thing for leiniency and acceptance to their offenses that I do not understand.



Keep in mind that, for a survivor, a statement like that
can sound very much like an implication that the person you are talking about is himself a pervert of some kind. I know it might not seem implicated in such a statement but we survivors are sensitive about things like this and I know that for me, the suggestion that I condone, accept or otherwise fail in some way to show all appropriate condemnation of sex abuse feels very much like such an accusation.

I think it's crucial in a discussion like this that we all keep in mind that we are talking to other survivors and do our best to keep it from becoming personal.



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#255732 - 10/17/08 03:39 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
usmc97 Offline
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Registered: 08/02/05
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Loc: Colorado
That was after being called out to which I answered the iquiries of me. I DID NOT mean to imply any perversion and I don't see it in the words I used. The meaning in it is supposed to be that of him trying to both recognize the wrong doing of perps and defending their place in society. It's contradictory, to say someone "hurts" a child but deserves a chance to carry on with their life free and clear after some time period. Adding that a predator can eventually be safe with no way to prove it, atleast not without endangering children in the process.

I honestly don't understand a lot of the statements any other way throughout this whole debate. A call for second chances, unproved theories of redemption, misleading factoids, excuses, desperate hope to humanize... all of which to give consideration to the rights and feelings of individuals who have ruined lives? There's something deeper that is trying to be said, there's a reason for wanting signs that predators can change. I'm not about to say it's okay to risk the safety of a kid. What's wrong with perps having to be held to a standard that includes having zero access to children? They still can live out their lives productively, why do kids need to be a part of that?

The prevention of kids developing into predators seems easy compared to what folks think you are to do with the perps who are already identified.

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#255760 - 10/17/08 10:24 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
M3 Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: uscmc97
There's something deeper that is trying to be said, there's a reason for wanting signs that predators can change.

You are right. I think every side of this tread, and everyone that takes a stance in between, is heavily influenced by how they view their perpetrator. And I don't think anyone can be faulted for that view. I was physically abused by my mother and recently found out that she may have known about the sexual abuse all along, maybe even profited from it. But I can't view her as absolute evil, I can't. I can't view the older boys that took advantage of me as being absolute evil either.

My mother had a daughter when I was 21. She was the best mother to my little sister. The older boys were a group who heard I "could help them out" since they'd never had a blow job before. I was 10, they were in middle school. They were bigger and there was five of them so I gave in, but there was no force and very little coercion. The may have given up if I'd denied it and said no. I doubt they grew up to be adult perpetrators, I think they were just curious. (Thanks, but I'm not looking for feedback on that... let's stick to the point I'm trying to make...) My first perp was when I was six, but it was my cousin who was only four or five!

As for my football coach and the man that nearly killed me, their grooming and lies were much in insidious. One is in prison for life (the state parole board has promised he will never get out, his victim count was in the 300+ range I believe) but the coach is MIA.

I feel conflicted by this thread because I agree with both sides depending on which of my perpetrators we talk about.

There is a lot of good conversation in this thread, but what I also see is that because our positions can be so tied to our abuse, the perpetrator, and the role of that perpetrator in our lives, it is easy for each of us to wrap those important points in a lot of emotion than, on the other end is being read through a lenses of emotion, burying the true meaning in what we are saying to each other.

I think on this matter, because of our histories, the identities of our perpetrator, the roles our perpetrators played in our lives, and even how our abuse was handled when we attempted to, successfully or unsuccessfully, to disclose, all plays apart in how we view this issue. Because the countless combination of way of how these things play out, we get such a broad set of opinions on this issue. And these opinions are further molded by our experiences as adults.

Everyone has made valid points, but I think we just need to agree that we are going to disagree on this issue.

Ultimately, we don't know enough about what makes an offender an offender. Psychologist continue to study this in hopes of finding a way of identifying for the purpose of prevention (and protection) and "curing" (can't think of a better term, I'm not assuming it is an illness - no comments please, forgive me, I'm tired...).

Policy makers and politicians are trying to make laws that remove the ability of perpetrators from being around kids. Laws that prevent them from living in certain parts of town, registering where they are at and having it posted on the Internet, having bulletins distributed when they move into a neighborhood.

The sad fact is, we don't have the money to keep them all in prison or to monitor each on every minute of the day. I think, as a society, we would if we could until we are sure that they won't perp again. As a society, we have limited capacity within our criminal justice system and our laws decide who we consider to be the most heinous of criminals.

Right now, I think some states have stiffer penalties for drug possession than child molestation.

Maybe we should focus our energy in convincing our state legislatures to come to terms with just how devastating child sexual abuse really is and get them to begin reforming the laws and putting money into protecting and HEALING these kids and the adults these kids grow up to be.

I think it's our turn.

Peace and love to all my brothers in recovery...

Michael


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#255762 - 10/17/08 10:43 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Registered: 11/14/06
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USMC,

I feel your "us" vs "them" stance (your words) alone is far from neutral and is implying that any survivor that doesn't believe as you do is somehow calling "for second chances," or using "unproved theories of redemption, misleading factoids, excuses, desperate hope to humanize" -- in other words, a perp sympathizer. I feel that is incorrect in my case.

If that were true, and I was a sympathizer to active pedophiles, why would I have worked with so many to turn their lives around and not offend again?

When I say they deserve redemption, I am not saying they get a free gift of forgiveness -- quite the opposite, actually. I'm saying that any criminal, with the appropriate amount of work and reflection and proving of safety to our standards, deserves the chance to change his or her life.

Take this for example: 20 is legally an adult. But really, he is not an adult. There are lessons one hasn't learned (generally) by 20 that, say, a 40 year old would know. At 20, most perps I've known didn't even realize what their illness was, let alone control it and/or have foresight enough to stay away from kids. Then if they did realize what that part of them was, they were confused and stuffing it deep inside -- as many survivors do with their abuse history (one commonality between "us" and them").

With this lack of knowledge and life experience, and lack of support and help (and there is a lack of it, I don't know where people get that there is abundant services for pre-arrest pedophiles), is it hard to imagine some would wrongly and inappropriately act out their feelings? It isn't to me.

But is 50-year-old Johnny the same person as the 20-year-old he once was? Of course not. Is any 50-year-old the same as when they were 20? No.

And if 50-year-old Johnny does mega treatment over that 30-year span after his offense, and proves to our standards that he is able to live safely in society, does he not deserve a second chance?

And yes, there will be some that can't -- and those who can't will be fairly obvious to spot in treatment prior to their prison term/probationary period ending. And yes, we should keep those men and women indefinitely.

But I feel your theory that all perps are all the same isn't, in my opinion and experience, true. And I feel that since they are not all the same, they don't all deserve the same treatment.

To your idea in the example of alcoholics who hurt people never being allowed to drink again: how do we do that? Does each alcoholic require a blood-alcohol test every day? Do we hire someone to watch each one?

You said you weren't for camps. That's good. But, I don't see how, keeping with your plan to keep all pedophiles away from all kids, we could ever do anything but camps. If you believe they can live productively still, how is that possible outside of civilization?

Because the reality is that kids are everywhere, and there's no realistic way to keep pedophiles away from kids completely. Even if we herd all the convicted ones into prison, there are still those who have not offended and/or not been caught. So unless we find the gene (or whatever makes someone offend) and identify them pre-birth, I don't see a way of ridding the world of this, sadly. frown

It's like saying we should rid the world of sin. You can't.

So, in a more realistic light, I feel better options and help should be available, and I feel that our demonizing and stereotyping of these people actually hurts our cause -- because why would young Johnny seek pre-offense help and support if he is deathly afraid of societal wrath and violence? If he watches TV and sees the worst-case scenarios on the news and the people getting more and more angry? If people think he is a lost cause and doomed from the start, it does not provide a lot of motivation to take the steps to NOT offend, does it?

And then we say "well, that's his problem, not mine. He should just know exactly what to do to be perfect." I don't know about you, but I didn't always know all the right answers in life...I don't think many have; and especially with someone in that big of a predicament? *shrug*

Well it is our problem, that is if we want to protect kids. And instead of what I feel is knee-jerk reactions, we need to step back, breathe, and look realistically and logically at things to get the real picture to know better how protect kids.

I have no doubt your perps were vicious and cruel people, USMC. I have no doubt they were of the minority that cannot be helped. But offenders, in my experience, do not fit a cookie cutter -- just like survivors or ANYONE doesn't -- and it's dangerous for children to put them into that mold.



_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#255794 - 10/17/08 01:39 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
sunwolf Offline


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 225
Loc: Indiana
"I think it's crucial in a discussion like this that we all keep in mind that we are talking to other survivors and do our best to keep it from becoming personal."



I must agree 100%%%%%%%%% ....... please lets love each other....



Edited by sunwolf (10/17/08 01:39 PM)

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#255797 - 10/17/08 01:42 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: AndyJB2005]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5780
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Let me make a statement about recidivism and statistics. In the past few years, probation and parole departments around the US have been making registered sex offenders stay indoors from dusk til dawn on Halloween in the belief that they pose a threat to kids trick-or-treating.

Our "common sense" tells us that is a wise thing to do. Last year, a district attorney in a western state did some research from 13 years in his county to determine the number of reported assaults that took place on Halloween. Here are his results:

Quote:
last year when we went through this identical discussion I pulled 13
years of statistics from my prosecutors office:

In that period we had approximately 5560 cases referred to our sex crime
unit
exactly 6 cases were referred to the sex crimes unit for offenses with
an October 31 crime date

of those allegations were....
1 was an alleged sexual assault against an adult
2 were allegations of physical assault against a child
3...were referrals for failure to register.

6/5560. do the math.





Edited by Ken Singer, LCSW (10/17/08 01:42 PM)

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#255808 - 10/17/08 02:10 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
0.001% wow -- and only 0.0003% against kids. Wow, that surprises even me.

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#255810 - 10/17/08 02:17 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: AndyJB2005]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
HERE GOES ANGER!

First off, I never said I was neutral, I said that everything before hasn't been out of anger. I don't speak of them like they are human. They are less than whatever I am and I don't know that I am human, THAT IS FACT. I know the difference between individuals that have only had innapropriate thoughts and true pedophiles.

Two, DON'T EVER SAY THAT I HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON WITH A PERP OR ASSUME THAT ANY ONE OF US DOES!

Now trying to be a little more civil...

Three, They have access to therapy like everyone else where they can explore themselves and recieve help, the code of ethics is that they will have problems if they are a danger to themselves or others just like everybody else. So if they come out with they have, are, or will be "hurting" a child they can expect somekind of action to be taken. Otherwise they are protected by confidentiality. No harm, no foul.

The "at risk" probably are better able to hold jobs, look normal, and carry on with other parts of their lives better than a lot of "us". Not even including the resources that are out there, especially for those who have not offended. Don't tell me that they have no where to go!!! Their fears of getting caught, spilling out that THEY HAVE victimized already, or innability to seek help is solely their responsibility... they have their reasons for hiding it!!!
They are selfish, of course they want to redeem themselves and go on with their lives.

Fourthly, You say their hurting a kid is "acting out" their feelings from not having support, etc. Way to belittle the victims, I'm not a product of someone "acting out". It takes planning, focus, desire, and evil to do what they do. Well they deserve a better life than "us" and it don't matter because "we" are just the mistakes they made in life, no biggie. Bullshit

Five, Okay, let 50yo Johnny be a teacher at your schools. There's an age when they grow out of hurting kids? At least a couple of mine were over 50.

six.
Originally Posted By: AndyJB2005
USMC,
why would young Johnny seek pre-offense help and support if he is deathly afraid of societal wrath and violence? If he watches TV and sees the worst-case scenarios on the news and the people getting more and more angry? If people think he is a lost cause and doomed from the start, it does not provide a lot of motivation to take the steps to NOT offend, does it?


So it's society's fault that we are too hard on them for what "they" have done to kids"? It's society's fault that we tell them IF they do this stuff they will get in trouble? So we are blamed for their cowardice? I need to be someone who is suppose to encourage them?

Lastly, You trust the folks you work with and you expect us to also. You do not know without faultless certainty that they are not "active". You don't see everything that they do and think but you honor their word and check lists or other things you require so that they can make you feel better about them. If they pass your tests then they're good. Everybody accept them, they have credentials that say they won't hurt another child. You say pretty much all of them go on to not hurt anybody else but you don't really know because you are not one of them.

Maybe the gene that causes them is next to the one that "makes" folks gay because we all know we can "fix" that right? (No offense just making a point, you gents don't need to be "fixed") Why can't you accept that they just are?

Back to anger, thought I was done

ADULT PEDOPHILES ARE ALL THE SAME!!! THEY ALL HAVE HURT KIDS!!! It is realistic to keep them from kids indefinately, just something you don't believe. It's somekind of punishment to keep them from kids? Yes! Taking away "toys" they don't know how to treat properly!

Holloween is coming up, do you have a statistic on how many perps go out desquised? Include both the ones registered and the ones who failed to register, the one's that haven't been caught in order to have a criminal record are extra credit.



_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255826 - 10/17/08 03:56 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
blueshift Offline
Guest

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Originally Posted By: usmc97
DON'T EVER SAY THAT I HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON WITH A PERP OR ASSUME THAT ANY ONE OF US DOES!


I suggest you use this indignation to try to understand how another survivor might feel at the implication of being a perp sympathizer. There is a big difference between supporting rehabilitation and being a perp sympathizer. You may not see it, but I do.


_________________________
My Story
My Art

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#255837 - 10/17/08 05:10 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: blueshift]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Okay, we're going to have to agree to disagree, I guess. Which is too bad because I enjoy learning from other people, but I need a two way street, as well.

I'm very sorry that we see things so differently and that it seems my points are lost on you. I see your point of view very clearly, and I can relate very much to what you say and feel, but I just do not agree with some major aspects. If that makes me an evil person, I'm sorry. If helping children this way makes me a perp sympathizer, I guess I'll have to take that lump.

I don't think I can change your view of me or the world anyway, so I won't bother anymore.

I hope sometime the bigger picture will be revealed and the pinhole expanded.

Something that someone said really sticks with me from this thread, and if this is all I take from this exchange I will still be happy. smile

Quote:
There was a man in a chinese prison for being a buddist monk. Being interviewed after his release he was asked if he was scared. He said that he was one time during one of his many beatings, he almost lost his compassion for his captors. [...] Pete


This is how I feel about my dad/abuser and the ones I've worked with. I'm sorry if that makes me evil to you, but I feel it doesn't.

I don't have to love what any person, perp or not, has done to love them as a whole person.


_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#255856 - 10/17/08 07:30 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: AndyJB2005]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
I never said that you were evil.

I never said that you were a "sympathizer".

I am not close minded, I am strict with the issue of "them" because it is not like any other issue.

I honestly don't understand at all how much faith you have in them.

I am at odds with you in how you have tried to turn things around with me at each instant. Because you may have somekind of official "clinical" training you feel it's right to treat me like I'm an idiot and don't know anything with all I've gone through, my experience, and my education. It would not matter to me if you were some world renowned doctor spitting out statistics. I have not fit what those people seem to know so much about, this stuff is the only proof I exist SO I SPEAK. Your experience is different than mine and you seem oblivious to what is outside the confines of the walls you work in just like a lot of "professionals". Your trust in them I can not comprehend. You would only be satisfied with me if I became tolerant and that is not something I can do because as long as they have opportunities to be a danger they will stay a danger. I said nothing but to take that opportunity away. You never answered why they need to have the ability to be around kids in order for them to have a life anyway. I answered everything directed at me.

You explain things like "they" were only involved in car accidents of varying degrees where they can be repaired at our expense while some of us are totaled. They can go out with the possibility of totaling more children, something you and your colleagues can't guarantee.

In order to understand "them" you would have to understand someone like me because I seem to be the polar opposite. You could be treating one of my perps and never know it because you believe they can come to a point where they can be reformed and deserve another chance with no mention of their responsibilities to their victims. All of the individuals that hurt me can't all be in the minority you say I talk about.

It's not like I get support on here through pm's or anything rooting me on. I say things because they need to be said and if I'm the only one I never really fit here anyway. There's a reason everybody is not a monk. I sure never want to be one.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#255879 - 10/17/08 09:12 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
For anyone interested in more on offender treatment and over coming abusing behaviors, I suggest the book "Not Monsters: Analyzing the Stories of Child Molesters."

The author, Pamela D. Schultz, is a victim of CSA abuse herself, and in search of insights, her book documents the stories of nine convicted child molesters through one-on-one interviews, listening to what offenders have to say about their crimes and exploring the roots of these behaviors from a social constructionist perspective. Their words paint a compelling and frightening portrait of how sexual abuse works in Western culture to perpetuate a political and social system of dominance and control.

In "Not Monsters" she writes,

Quote:
"Spending time with these men has taught me a lot, not only about them, but about The Man who Molested Me. Oddly enough, the more I've come to understand his weakness, lack of character, and warped value system that gave him permission to molest me, the easier it's been to forgive him. I know now that he was trapped in his own web of deceit and inner angst, woven from a pattern that was probably passed down from generation to generation. There's no excuse for what he did to me, but there were reasons for it. Understanding the reasons has given me a measure of peace.

[...]

Hold these men in contempt for their willingness to give into their darkest impulses. Condemn them for being weak, violent, impulsive, or cruel. But remember the children that they once were and the lessons they learned that shaped their adulthood. Try to imagine what can be done to keep other children from growing up to become just like them."


I couldn't agree more with her. I recommend this read for anyone interested in CSA and/or offender recovery.


_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#255883 - 10/17/08 09:22 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: AndyJB2005]
lungfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 64
Loc: nowhere special nj
Thanks Andy for the quote. That is something I knew but it was easier to read than think about, if that makes sense. Although my anger sometimes gets the best of me, I am endlessly thankful that there are people like you and others that are doing the work that could save kids from what we went through. peace pete

_________________________
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson

Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like to be taught. -Sir Winston Churchill

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#255896 - 10/17/08 10:55 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: AndyJB2005]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
I remember a time early in my recovery when my mother told me via IM that the number one perp had died (she had no idea that I had ever been abused at that time). I was home alone and pumped my fist in the air yelling "Yes, Yes, YES!!!" I was jubilant.

Now, five years later, I can truly identify with the thought:

Quote:
Hold these men in contempt for their willingness to give into their darkest impulses. Condemn them for being weak, violent, impulsive, or cruel. But remember the children that they once were and the lessons they learned that shaped their adulthood. Try to imagine what can be done to keep other children from growing up to become just like them."

The point is that yes, all of us are not likely to see this issue in the same exact light or from the same point of view. Part of that is the dynamic that Michael mentioned in his well thought out post. Another part is that we're not all at the same place in our recovery as others are. It may be quite possible that all of us are not even headed to the same recovery destination. We're all survivors, and none of us are "Less" than the rest of us because of where we are on the journey. It is what it is after all, and above all we're brothers.

Thank-you to each of you for sharing yourselves in this thread. Your passion on this issue is understandable and I've learned much. No one says we have to agree as long as we continue to love.

Thanks for allowing me to share just a little of myself as well.

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#256086 - 10/18/08 01:53 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: WalkingSouth]
sunwolf Offline


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 225
Loc: Indiana
I was the 1st one who posted this question...after reading all the posts here ..I have a better picture of the problem...I will do more research about this in other web sites and books...I been considering in going back to college to do a Master or PhD in counsellig or psychology...I am interetsted in trying to deal and heal both sides..peprs and victims..am not sure if I can..but I think is worth trying to prevent further abuse..there is a website called "generation five" they trying to stop child abuse with prevention...thank you for all the posts..


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#256121 - 10/18/08 03:17 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: sunwolf]
M3 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
Thanks for posing this question sunwolf!

This has been an incredibly powerful thread. I'm proud that we were able to have this conversation. It shows that survivors can be passionate about our positions, but in the end, know we are brothers in recovery and can look towards the future together and continue our recovery.

Peace and love to you all...

Michael


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#257998 - 10/26/08 04:46 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: AndyJB2005]
WillT Offline


Registered: 10/26/08
Posts: 3
Loc: near Hudson WI
Andy,

Thanks for mentioning the book "Not Monsters...". I have read it.

Reading through this thread scared me. I understand the hate and anger... but what does that accomplish?

The most important thing is to STOP THE ABUSE. Stop it before it happens. Stop it as soon as possible.

I would NEVER condone sexual abuse, but the extreme hate for those who abuse (in whatever capacity) is so strong that I think it prevents them from getting help.

I was abused by another older child when I was young. It took me decades to admit it was abuse. He was probably 5 or 6 years old. I am ANGRY that my life has been ripped from me as a "normal" man. ...but I am also angry that my perp had to have learned what he did to me from someone. I am even angry that his father committed suicide.

I am not a professional, but I would think that other survivors struggle with relationships and sexuality. Have survivors done things in relationships and sex that they regret and that potentially hurt another person? How difficult is it to forgive your own actions when you have acted out against yourself or another? Would it help by telling you how terrible you are?

Offenders need to be held accountable for their actions. In a strange way I think the best way to prevent abuse is to not only help those of us who have been hurt after the abuse, but to also help stop the abuse at the sources.. the abusers and those at risk of becoming abusers.

(I fully expect to not be understood here and be flamed. I already feel beat down and worn out.)


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#258007 - 10/26/08 08:33 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: WillT]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
.



Edited by ttoon (11/16/08 11:01 AM)
_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#258039 - 10/26/08 12:21 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: WillT]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
I didn't start out in anger, folks just don't understand me. I put things in a way where you simply remove the threat, treat the threat, keep the threat either under constant surveilance or plainly disallow the threat from being around it's prey. In my mind this is not far fetched or irrational and it doesn't happen to be a bad idea to people who are in my life.

I am the direct result of my abusers in how I have to try and live through all that they did and are able to do to me now. If I have to go through what I go through it should be nothing for them to live by rules that take less effort and do little to interfere with their lives.

I assume that the guys who come to this site never want a kid to hurt like they have been hurt.

Everything I said was prevention and help for both sides. Hardly anybody seemed to see that I was really just taking out the kid factor, "they" can live in a world of adults.... is that really so hard to see?

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#258081 - 10/26/08 03:05 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: ttoon]
WillT Offline


Registered: 10/26/08
Posts: 3
Loc: near Hudson WI
Hi Dave, first: thanks for the response. Right now I am not doing well. I am ridden with shame and guilt.

Originally Posted By: ttoon
The question to ask...might be, in order to truly understand the anger...is to ask any sexual predator, "Are you being persecuted for the exercise of your sexuality or, is it because you have destroyed this little boy's life?"

What do you think is the most likely response. The most truthful reply?


The anger is from destroying someone's life. But that is the same (maybe just similar) anger that I would think most offenders have for themselves as well. Offenders live a life of self hatred. Those who have only been victims need healing and feel shame. They can here, "it's not your fault" and.. at some level believe it potentially. An offender cannot here those words and believe it. (Please know I am not in ANY way trying to minimize the harm done to victims.. and their families).

As a survivor, I know how much my life has been effected and I don't like it. I have trouble with male friendships... not all, luckily, but with the ones that I am closest with. Healthy boundaries are difficult. I don't like sharing that I was abused... somewhat because of the stigma that all survivors may be perpetrators. And since perpetrators are seen worse than murderers, I can understand how so many would remain silent and not seek help.

I wish this crisis would be talked about more (male sexual abuse). I wish we could foster healthy male relationships. Masculinity is not bad. We are SUPPOSED to be men. Male relationships are SUPPOSED to be different from women. I'm just afraid that there are so few male role models for other men... let alone those who can talk about this. I want to do everything in my power that my son and daughter NEVER have to go what we've gone through. ...right now they may be too young, but I want to share what I've learned with them someday. I want to share that I was abused, that my mom was abused by someone else, that although my grandpa never laid a hand on me that he was convicted. I so want my voice to be heard.


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#258087 - 10/26/08 03:24 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: WillT]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1245
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: WillT
The anger is from destroying someone's life. But that is the same (maybe just similar) anger that I would think most offenders have for themselves as well. Offenders live a life of self hatred. Those who have only been victims need healing and feel shame. They can here, "it's not your fault" and.. at some level believe it potentially. An offender cannot here those words and believe it. (Please know I am not in ANY way trying to minimize the harm done to victims.. and their families)

[...]

And since perpetrators are seen worse than murderers, I can understand how so many would remain silent and not seek help.


I couldn't agree more with what you've said here -- and you're right, offenders do hate themselves to astronomical degrees. I could add, too, that the shame and self-hatred they feel simply fuels their acting out urges. It does several other things, too. For example, it decreases the chances they find/stick with therapy and/or other treatment; lowers the chances of them seeking and keeping adult friends; lessens the motivation of getting permanent full-time working situations, and other things that help them move forward.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: it is in our best interest to hate their crimes but not them. It is hurting our cause (the protection of children) to demonize and stereotype these people, keeping them down in the mud.

The best way to make sure they DON'T reoffend is to try and help take away their shame and hatred -- the fuel of their pedophilia.

I say again...we can and SHOULD despise their crime, and I encourage people to do that if they need to do that. But we MUST be realistic and logical, and not emotional, in our implementations if we hope to keep as many from abusing as possible.



_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#258088 - 10/26/08 03:25 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: ttoon]
WillT Offline


Registered: 10/26/08
Posts: 3
Loc: near Hudson WI
Originally Posted By: ttoon
However we might look at it, the decision to abuse is a choice that is made. It would be hard to argue against the fact that sexual predators require a huge amount of rationalization to move from one victim to the next. But, to Quote Richard Hoffman: "...simply because they cannot distinguish between love and hate does not mean that we, who require less denial and fewer untruths to get on with our lives, are similarly incapacitated."


I know for me when I have crossed boundaries with friends that I did not use good rational. I believed the lie that there was nothing wrong in "this" specific case. For me to keep boundaries, i constantly remind myself to not believe the lies.


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#258117 - 10/26/08 05:12 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: WillT]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
.



Edited by ttoon (11/16/08 10:59 AM)
_________________________
checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#258218 - 10/27/08 12:55 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: ttoon]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
What they do IS NOT "ACTING OUT"!
Not all predators hate themselves, ask NAMBLA.

Give them a sterile place, educate them and everything else, AWAY FROM CHILDREN. Why do kids have to be a part of their lives??? A validation to their "hard work" of "recovery"?

"...take away their shame and hatred -- the fuel of their pedophilia."

They don't need to feel ashamed??? Why do they not need to feel ashamed of their thoughts and actions, and why should they not be taught to hate the things they've done??? That don't "fuel" what they do. They do what they do because they either like it, they want it, or just because they can. Kids ain't cigarettes that they can work on trying to quit. If they did not want to do it they would do something about it prior to. THERE ARE PLACES FOR THEM TO GO, and I've asked that they post those resources on the website before because of other things. Besides the fact that they can go to ANY therapist to which it is the choice of the therapist to work with them. They have nothing to fear if they are not a threat. Terms like "relapse", "mistake", "acting out", "recovery", etc are so misused and deminishing to the things that they've inflicted on others. I sure take it personal, maybe because of what I have to constantly go through. It's belittling, my life is fact whether anybody believes what happens to me or not. It's witness and I'm not a fictional character.

Why is it so hard to say that it is wrong? take true responsibility? that it is not tolerated period? and that it is not something where you get chances to correct after the fact? Why, why, why, why, WHY????????

Most of what I've said throughout this whole subject hasn't been "emotional" or out of anger, it IS logical and realistic. You see a detrimental problem, why not deal with it. You can't experiment with a cancer without risking the lives of those in the danger. Nuke the cancer, save the life.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#258225 - 10/27/08 01:55 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: usmc97]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Yes, offenders are human, too. That gives other humans, like me, the right to judge them based upon their actions.

From the very beginning, I've always felt educating potential victims - that is, children, all children everywhere - about how to identify grooming behavior and avoid abusive situations would be both cheaper and vastly, overwhelmingly more effective than trying to talk offenders into stopping. If you "rehabilitate" an offender, you have just "saved" two or three kids from being abused BY THAT OFFENDER. Spend the same amount of money on a cheap but informative and effective education program, and you've saved a thousand kids from being abused not only by THAT offender, but by ANY offender, ostensibly. If you feel there's enough money to do both, fine - but chances are, there isn't.

Although the public seems to be fixated on the type of abuser that suddenly and violently grabs kids from the shadows and rapes them, we all know that kind of abuser is really quite rare. The majority of abusers are people who have groomed children, their parents, organizational leadership, etc. I consider all of it part of the grooming process. Whether you do or not, the point is, abuse is 10% physical and 90% mental. Their tool is deception. They're liars, by definition.

Your convicted sex offender who is undergoing counseling is there either because it was ordered by a judge, or because he thinks (or knows) that being there may lead to a reduced sentence or lesser restrictions down the road. In either case, the desired result will not be achieved unless the offender indicates remorse, and expresses a wish to be helped, and basically does whatever is necessary to make it seem as if the treatment is working. If that means garnering sympathy by concocting a history of sexual abuse, they will do that as well. How can you look at a person who has lied to a child, perhaps many children, lied to the child's parents, lied to their own family, lied to whomever else might be directly involved in the victim's well-being in some capacity, lied to a court and the rest of the population by pleading not-guilty (or waiting for a bargain before pleading guilty), and think that when this person shows up in your office, they're magically going to be truthful and forthright with you? Because they insist they're being honest?

Really?

Of COURSE they're "remorseful". Of COURSE they "know it was wrong". Of COURSE they want to be helped so they'll never do it again. What sort of prospect of getting out early do they have if they tell you that they think pedophilia is a completely natural "sexual orientation" that is unfairly repressed in modern society, that they know their victim enjoyed it, that they would do it again in a heartbeat, and that the only thing they "regret" is getting caught and having to sit in your office and pretend to care about what you're saying to them?

Ask yourself, if you've dealt with a lot of offenders - how many of them have told you that they indeed feel pedophilia should be accepted and abuse should be decriminalized? Pedophiles express such sentiments in VAST numbers on the internet. It's a statistical certainty that at least SOME of your clients MUST feel this way. How many have willingly told you they do? One...two? None? Out of how many patients...a hundred? Here's a hint: some of them folks are lying to you. Which ones? If they all sing the same song, how can you tell? What goes through your mind when you sign off on their case file as "showing improvement" if you KNOW there's at least half a chance that this person may be feeding you a fantasy - grooming you, in a sense?

If you focus on pedophiles who do not offend - who try to get help before anything happens - that is awesome. I will even admit to being capable of respecting a pedophile who does something like that, because I judge people by what they DO. Someone without a record taking it upon themselves to declare themselves a pedophile and get help...THAT takes courage, and honesty. That is showing the exact same consideration and caring for potential victims that offenders so willfully disregard. That makes them better people.

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Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#258260 - 10/27/08 08:10 AM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: melliferal]
ttoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/19/07
Posts: 977
.



Edited by ttoon (11/16/08 10:54 AM)
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checkin out for a few weeks... whistle
02/07/09

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#453783 - 11/15/13 01:10 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: sunwolf]
jas4159 Offline


Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 300
tough question.

I think we need to look at the indiviual. there are so many reasons why abusers abuse. First their are just sick people who believe it is ok and for what ever twisted reasons they convience themselves with. Then there are those who are simple bad or evil people. Others were conditioned and groomed for it by their own abusers. I think it is sad that sometimes the abuse cascades from one abuser to the next. In my case my primary abuser was also my first abusers - abuser. In this case my first abuser was just a kid but several years older than me. Another example is when i was living in colorado, i lived with my girlfriend. her eight year old son was being abused by a twelve or thirteen year old friend. In the end the thirteen year old was being abused by his mothers boyfriend.

So is it right to condeme the thirteen year old or is he as much a victimas as the eight year. I think their are others who are getting revenge for their abuse a t the expense of others


Don't miss understand me I am not minimizing abuse. I am simple syaing there aere many reasons for why an an abuserss abuses. It doesn't excuss it.


rich

justanothersurvivror.wordpress.com


Edited by jas4159 (11/16/13 07:58 AM)
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Thanks

rich

justanothersurvivror.wordpress.com

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#453789 - 11/15/13 02:00 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: sunwolf]
don64 Online   content
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 727
Loc: St. Croix, USVI
I wish I could have read the rest of your comments, jas4159. I am very interested in this topic. I am not at all interested in the bible or religion, however, there does seem to be some ancient wisdom in both places. For example, the kind of energy we send out is the kind of energy that will come back to us (reaping what you seed). Turning the other cheek seems to be a part of this same ancient wisdom. For example, just because someone hates me doesn't mean I need to hate them. In the case of abuse, I don't believe my experiences can move into wisdom and understanding until I can develop love and compassion for my abusers. That does not mean I do not develop discernment, however. In my case, I divorced my family of origin 11 years ago. I do not intend to ever see them or talk to them again, as they are poisonous for me. That does not mean that I do not send them love and compassion in my thoughts. They are very, very damaged people. I really do hope they are able to feel love and are able to heal the substantial damage they suffered in their families of origin. Don
_________________________
Divine Law is not judgment or denial of self truths. Divine Law is honoring harmony that comes from a peaceful mind, an open heart, a true tongue, a light step, a forgiving nature, and a love of all living creatures. Jamie Sams & David Carson, Medicine Cards

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#453800 - 11/15/13 02:58 PM Re: survivors and sex offenders... [Re: sunwolf]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 731
Loc: NJ
Taking my toys, and heading home.


Edited by Castle (12/18/13 07:34 PM)
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My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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