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#25216 - 03/26/02 12:02 PM What is Masculinity?
Redsongbird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 209
This is probably an old subject around here. But it is what I am feeling today. I am sort of stuck at home right now and have much time to think. What is Masculinity? Even having this question in my mind right now at this stage of my life makes me wonder. Here I am forty years old..about to turn 41 and I still down know or an wondering is I am masculine. Shit.

I think I have mt T to thank for this topic on my mind. Because he brought it up last week. I have though at several times wonder what is a man? Gosh there are so many way I could go with this isn't there? I mean I know what "society" says a man is....being a He-man, drinking, having sex - anywhere at any time...being able to fix things...sports etc etc etc. I do not drink - my father always did and I vowed to myself I would never turn out like him. Sex? Yes my wife and I have sex but not all the time. Fix things? You have got to be kidding. I am all thumbs. Sports? Oh you mean you are SUPPOSE to CATCH the ball? ha! If masturbation were what made a man male and masculine then I would be there!! For sure I have that one down! But I am gentle. I am more creative, for christ sake I even cross stitch! (my wife showed me how and I enjoy it) I love to sing and even have a degree in music. People will talk to me about very private things so I enjoy helping others. I don't know a thing about cars except where to put the key in! Hey I have changed a tire though.

I don't know maybe being masculine is accepting what you are like? is that the key? Shit I thought I had done already accepted this about me. Now I am wondering is maybe all my abuse happened because I wasn't boyish enough? When I got raped five months ago was there something about me even now that doesn't show enough "manlyness?"

Sigh

Redsongbird


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#25217 - 03/26/02 01:06 PM Re: What is Masculinity?
fenics Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/25/02
Posts: 25
Loc: Midlands UK
I'm new here so I don't know if masculinity has been discussed much before, but it is certainly a difficult subject for some (me included).

Unlike you I was always good at sports, able to rewire a plug or put up a shelf. Amongst men, I could always give a good impression of being a man. But ... I was always thinking in the back of my mind that I did not like the stereotypical male. In some recent therapy sessions I realised that the stereotype was the one provided by my mother and (unfortunately) perpetuated by my wife. Men were definitely second class citizens because they were dirty, smelly, took up too much room and were basically only semi-civilized. And then I had an overwhelming urge to stand up and walk around the room - which I did. While I was standing up I felt a huge release of adrenaline, so much so that I started shaking. It dawned on me (then and in subsequent analysis) that it was possible to accept that being a man is a good thing. That was a revelation for me. I was then worried by the idea that seems to worry you - would I have to start acting like a stereotypical male? Over the past few weeks I have come to realise that being a man has more to do with knowing yourself, accepting yourself and being sure of your own thoughts and feelings than it does in playing sports, drinking beer and scratching your balls in public.

I think you define your own masculinity. I love my children and I have no intention of stopping showing that love in public, playing like a 4 year old and running around at the park making a fool of myself for their pleasure. For me, the masculinity resides in being sure that I am doing what I want to be doing, whether it is for myself or for others. Be creative, cook, sew, paint, write, whatever - and don't apologise for liking what you like.


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#25218 - 03/26/02 03:34 PM Re: What is Masculinity?
bosishere Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 161
Loc: nashville,tn,usa
very well put, fenics. But yes to the questions and statements put forth by Redsongvird. We are who we are. I think it is a constant learning process. Yes we can not "fix" a car, but then there are "other people" who are good at that, at least I think so. Being gay I have had to deal with the "manley" question more than other men, but such is my way of life. But then, I think, each contribute to the "manley" way of life and feeling. As I write my opinions, this topic may be a good item to discuss in the therapy group I attend. Bosishere


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#25219 - 03/26/02 03:39 PM Re: What is Masculinity?
Redsongbird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 209
Thanks Fenics for your reply. I like what you said. I keep thinking that we both we are on the same sort of track. Masculinity must be the result of truly just accepting oneself.

I was thinking this afternon When Do I Feel masculine? Well I came up with 1) When singing because my voice is male sounding. 2) With my wife: Things like opening the door for her, getting something she needs, taking care of her when she is sick etc etc etc. 3) Sex of course makes me feel masculine. Then I thought when do I NOT feel masculine? 1) Around other men. For ex: at the gym. or talking about sports etc. 2) When I can't figure out how to fix things. (Just today I had to change the tire on my car and for the life of me I don't know what I have done wrong but the tire is not right. Now my father-in-law is going to come home and I am going to feel like a jackass because most likely he will figure it out.)

So I must be basing my masculinity on what I think others think of me. By now (40) I would think I would not give a dam about what others think. Maybe it's not basing on what they think but what I think of myself. I just don't know how to correct this.

To anyone who read this: When do you feel masculine? At a specfic time or all the time? I am just wondering.

Redsongbird (Terry)





3) Sex: of course makes me feel masculine.


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#25220 - 03/26/02 03:49 PM Re: What is Masculinity?
Redsongbird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 209
Bosishere I did not see your reply until after I had posted just now. I would be interested in what your group comes up with in it's discussion about all this.


And great, I don't know how I did it but #3 was on my post twice about sex and masculinity. I didn't mean to have that on there twice. But now that I am thinking about it I wonder if thats really the only time I do feel masculine? That would not be a good answer either I believe. That would just be another stereo type idea of masculinity. I mean does having sex (no matter which way we like it) make us feel more masculine? Sex, is an expression of love towards the other person.

Redsongbird


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#25221 - 03/26/02 06:34 PM Re: What is Masculinity?
getteddie Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 226
Loc: Cub Hill, Md
Terry,
The line between your group and his disaperes after a man is raped... while a man or a boy...you are always part of what you have done...raped or not, you did have sex with a man. Check out the guys that ack it out in 100's of ways and then there are the ones who just say no...no what? The SA does a real number on you and it changes with time. If you are married it is best to fight it off...all the Pdocs say this but it is very hard at times.
When do I feel the most masculine? When I 'm carring a loaded gun...a big one...They call it a "9".
Sex doesn't always have to feel masculine. I like to ack it out by having my wife fist me...but I don't do it with men because I'm trying to say no.
Masculine is in the dictionary....but it is not in SA males all the time!!!!!!!

Eddie


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#25222 - 03/26/02 10:49 PM Re: What is Masculinity?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well,I can only speak for myself. I was finnally after 6 years to get away from my mother coming to me for sex. This was 1964 when I graduated from Tustin High School in Tustin,Ca. I left home immediatly and 72 hours later was living in my older sister's apartment in the San Fernando Valley. Got a job paying $1.25 hourly at MGee's Doggie Resort cleaning the filth from the cages. I told myself "Well,all that stuff with mom is behind me now. I'm strong. I won't allow it to affect me". I was wrong. Soon,I found myself being arrested by the police. Repeatedly. Mostly for poss. of marijuana. First arrest I ended up in the Hollywood Jail. Then it was the old Los Angeles Main Jail,a hellhole. This was just after the Watts Riots. After that it was so many jails I don't want to remember them all. Luckily I never made it to state prison. But my total time behind local & county jails exceeded two years. And I knew why. I was trying to prove to the World that I'm not a motherfucker. That I'm a tough guy. And I can take anything this World dishes out. I lost job after job when some redneck would think me a wussie cause I would'nt play grabass with him,pick on me. I punched them hard as I could right on the lips. Knocked them cold. Each incident,afterwards I'd grab my clothes,coffee mug,etc and walk out the company door and never collect my last paycheck. I crashed and burned. Over and over and over again. I knew why,though I could not say it. Who would believ me? I came out of it all with a virgin asshole which I have till this day. Means regardless of all else that I was one tough and smart bastard. Here I am now after all these decades. I'm not tough any longer. My teeth are falling out and my heart's about to give out. Thursday at 9:30am I must be in an attorney's office to sign a will with witnesses present. I inherited thru-default my parents' property worth $500,000. I'm leaving it all to the Tustin Boy's & Girl's Club. I hope this benefits children. It is all I can do,now. Life has taken it's toll.


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#25223 - 03/27/02 08:10 AM Re: What is Masculinity?
Redsongbird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 209
Well I was wondering if there would be any more posts here this morning. Thanks Getteddie and Tinfoil for posting.

Getteddie: I do no think that carrying a gun is what should make you feel like a "man" but seeing that you are from Baltimore and that being where I got raped I can CERTAINLY understand your statement. The "fisting" thing would not be for me. So you have done this with men is that what you are saying? Sorry maybe I should not ask that. Ignore if thats too personal. I thought about getting a gun soon after my rape. But I didn't care for guns before so I figure I shouldn't now either.

Tinfoil: I am sorry that things are going rough for you right now. I think you are doing something very masculine myself. By giving this money to that Boys & Girls place you are taking care of many children. And not just 2 or three but I am sure several. Thats quite an awesome act I believe.

Terry


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#25224 - 03/27/02 07:53 PM Re: What is Masculinity?
getteddie Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 226
Loc: Cub Hill, Md
Dissociation....The source of my present state and the reason for my surviveral of years of being raped by what seemed like half the older males that lived around me....starting at 11yo. A few years ago when my daughter was nearing 11...I freaked out and started having flashbacks of the forgottened SA. It's like ...what goes up must come down...what we dissociate...will be remembered...if we live long enough. It really sucks...to survive...then have it all thrown back in your faces!!! I didn't remember the flashbacks at first...I was stuffing them back as fast as they came. I knew that things were wrong when I lost the ability to have an orgasm...not with my wife or even with masterbation! This is what I was looking for when I got into fisting...and yes...with a man...needed to have an orgasm after months of going nuts and when I did.... I had total recall of a flashback for the first time. They started and have never stopped...slowed down but not stopped. Half the time I deal with life and trying to work as an engineer and the other half feeling like a little whore that's a scared kid. Do I want to be fucked by men...big time...do I have to..no...get it from my wife. Just trying to keep my life together by not going out on my wife. I do have one thing that I didn't have when I was a kid...control...I can say no and stop!!! It isn't easy because whorey little boys want sex all the time and this drives me nuts and wears me out...doing and thinking about it all the time. I hope that my speaking frankly about this will help someone who maybe is going through this SA crap....it's different for everyone but there are a lot of things that we all share.

Eddie


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#25225 - 03/28/02 05:02 PM Re: What is Masculinity?
Redsongbird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 209
Eddie - First of all I want to say thank-you for speaking so openly here. I really do appreciate that. I too know about Dissociation. I was at one time in therapy for DID what use to be called MPD. I went through 8 years of putting myself back together. This last sexual assualt has thrown me for a lope I must say though. Now, I understand what and why you are involved in the fisting with you wife. Can I ask another question? Does your wife KNOW this is why you like doing this? And are you saying that your homosexual desires are because you were raped? Just thinking out loud in print here. Again, don't answer anything you do not want too.

I have therapy in about 45 mins from now. Infact I had said in my first post that I was trying out two different T's well without realizing until last nite I scheduled BOTH sessions for the same day! tonite! So I have an appointment at 4:45 and then one at 7:00pm...my brain is going to be fried! ha!

Terry


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#25226 - 03/29/02 04:17 PM Re: What is Masculinity?
getteddie Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 226
Loc: Cub Hill, Md
Terry,
First I'ld like to say to you and everyone here that I only say what I think and that it may not be true. I see a therapist weekly...yesterday...see a shink...take meds...and have seen lots of Pdocs and 3 dick doctors many times...where it is down to an inplant to get it hard and stay that way long enough to do my wife but I don't have any sick leave left to have the operation YET because I've been off for 3 operations in the last 6 months...2 that may have been caused by the "fisting"??????
First...does my wife know??? Yeah..she caught me 18 months ago telling the other guy how much I loved it...by hacking my E-mail. She strongly believes that her fisting me will stop me from "Going Gay" She has been doing it ever since....I stoped counting at 236 times a month or so back. I love doing it but it leaves me so sore the next day that she complains...BIG TIME...about my bitching. My ass is killing me...my tail bone hurts...my pelvis feels spread....guts hurt and I have a bad hangover from the Poppers that I have to huff to stop the pain while being fisted....Jungle Juice...put into a zipper-lock bag and hupped like glue...really gets you screwed up for about 10 minites...takes a week for you lungs to clear...by than I'm doing it again!!!!! We did it last Sat. night and I have a real bad and painfull flashback while she was fisting me...I decided to stop fisting for all the above reasons BUT today I'm falling apart...I only get 2 nights off every 7 days....may save me from killing myself...but it's "SO HEAVY" that I only do it when I'm off....today...tonight is night # 2....tried not to do it last night and didn't sleep all night....tonight is my last chance and I'm just falling apart!!!! Is it like you hear asked to the old man? How did you make it to 129? and he says "By smoking two packs a day..a 5th of Black Jack...and having my wife fist fuck my brains out once a week!
Homosexual desires and what I think: I have talked to a few guys and ladies who live out in the middle of no where and do it with dogs...horses and whatever! Something strange and very open was taking place...only the men would talk about this....When there was both sexes present...they would have sex with both!!!!! Then once a year or so run into a person...male or female...and have sex with them!!!!!!!!! Sounded good to me: People are people and sexy people are going to have sex with whatever or whoever that they get the chance to try and like!!! The world rags on having sex with the same sex.... so people are afraid to try it...so most arn't doing gay sex...but if the world put you down for not doing it...I think that most would fall in line! What i'm saying is that there are no gay people only gay sex and that people are just people and if left competely free to try all sex...most would do so. Gay men are called that by the world because they tried it...liked it and stayed with it...drop the same guy out in the middle of no where...it may take some time but most would find some kind of sex that they liked with whatever they were stuck with! I was raped lots of times...more the 236...don't know...but about half of it was done after they had druged me with whatever they had. From the flashbacks I noticed that when they gave me poppers to huff in a bag...it made being fucked in the ass feel real good and I liked it...even begged to be raped more and more...that's why I still feel like a little whore. I'm falling apart right now..trying not to do it...do you think it would matter who or what did it to me right now? Don't think that I can stop
One last thing: The therapist said that my dick won't get hard because my mind is stopping me from going out and doing what was done to me?

Eddie


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#25227 - 04/01/02 09:30 PM Re: What is Masculinity?
SoCalJohn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor


Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 510
Loc: Los Angeles, California
I think the mark of a true man is being able to accept and love yourself for who you are and being able to feel and show appropriate emotions that are fitting for the situation.

I dont go much for stereotypes and i dont have a lot to prove to anyone, including myself.

Does that come anywhere close to answering your question?

I loved your question and your first post by the way! \:\)

Hugs,

John

_________________________
I asked him about this law he spoke of, he said,,, *watch* he then asked the others to share about their lives,,, the others talked of how things were for them, how things worked in their lives,,, and as they believed, it was so.

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#25228 - 04/02/02 05:48 PM Re: What is Masculinity?
getteddie Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 226
Loc: Cub Hill, Md
Terry,
There seems to be different feelings about one's self. The SA married guys feel beat up about this manly thing...where as the gay guys feel great about being themselfs....this is what scares me the most...like The Rug Rats...Have a Happy, Happy, Happy, Happy Day???? Is this the dirrection to happiest? SEX??? When I feel completly hopeless...I walk the park at night...Like the old Rolling Stone song...I was walking central park..It was late and it was dark...People said I was crazy....so sexualy fusstated...that I feel hopeless!
John...Last year after spliting with your wife...you were pretty nuts...then you came out...you seemed a lot happer...this is what scares all SA married men...can you say anything about this...seems like the most important thing that you could share????

Eddie


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#25229 - 04/02/02 08:44 PM Re: What is Masculinity?
Broken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/25/01
Posts: 273
Loc: Huntingtun Beach, CA, US
This is a good question. I think about that a lot. I think the stereotypes for gender are rediculous. A man who hides behind a facade of strength and is too insecure to show feeling is in a way, very weak. For us, its different, because we had very little choice as to the ways we were forced to adapt. Hiding behind masks is all i've ever known, because it was the only way to hang on.

But if being a man means being strong, id have to agree with that. But i think being tough is exactely what being a survivor of sexual abuse means.

In africa, there are a type of people called bushmen. If you want to know what it means to be strong, i think they are the perfect example.

A bushmans entire life revolves mostly around family. They are humble, egalitarian, and have one of the most happy and peacefull societies in human history. They have survived for thousands of years in an environment where your toughest, most bullheaded marine would probably die of thirst in less than a couple of weeks. Whats more they do it by respecting the amount of resources in thier environment, and respecting and caring for one another.

A few bushman still exist in africa, surviving in the desert. These are real people, of flesh and blood. If you met them you could shake thier hand.

To me, nothing is stonger or more masculine than being kind and mercifull.


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#25230 - 04/05/02 03:52 PM Re: What is Masculinity?
inferiornevada Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/08/02
Posts: 12
Loc: lyme connecticut & nyc
i can no longer see masculinity within myself, and quite frankly i am comfortable that way. i despise te element in masculinity, it appalls me for some reason. i see myself as asexual , and an imbodiment of every gender, race, sexuality, everything. im a homgolous personality. i am like a universal representation. and i do this becaus its clearly the long term symptom of abuse...sometimes i wish there was something i could do to reverse this manner of perception and thought.....


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#25231 - 04/05/02 04:53 PM Re: What is Masculinity?
Redsongbird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 209
I have not been on here for a few days now but I like these comments that have been posted.

I like the idea of being strong. I do not feel strong but having dealt with abuse in so many ways and having survived then YES I am strong too.

The comment about only Gay guys....I don't think only gay guys as you say can accept themselves. I am in this process. I am me. I do not fit the sterotype of "male" and as far as society defines it I probably never will. Because of my abuse I am dealing with feelings that I was not intended to have to deal with, yet, here I am in the mist of it all.
Terry


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#25232 - 04/05/02 07:05 PM Re: What is Masculinity?
getteddie Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 226
Loc: Cub Hill, Md
The Infero has put into words just what I feel about masulinity...Apalling...everything about it...sports, hunting, or whatever...hate it! I can relate to being asexual...after being raped for years, I became a biker for 15 years of staying drunk and high...not having any sex with anyone...not even one time! Was forced to stop biking...got married...then after 22 years and one kid later ..I start flashing. That's cool...made it thought 18 months of it ...then a month ago the flashbacks changed for the worst..Big Time!!! My mind wasn't showing me the pain which comes along with beig raped...so I felt bad about maybe liking it too much. Not now, I only have a few a week but they are a little too much to take...I feel so much pain that it makes me throw up. Now this puts me right back there...being a biker right after being raped for years...a lot more mean... then scared???? I feel jealous of gay men and anyone who knows their sex thing....the new found memories of my childhood have put me back at the begining...kind a hate everyone and everything. Masulinity to me, is the way they were...the older boys and men who raped me...I know that that sounds screwed up but that's the way it feels to me!!!!!

Eddie


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