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#250591 - 09/22/08 03:48 PM guilt and forgiveness *triggers*
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Thinking more on the subject of forgiveness has made me think about my forgiving myself and the part that plays in it.

When it comes right down to it, I am a perp. When I was eight or nine I helped a friend pull a little girls pants down against her will so we could look at her. I can make the excuse that I was acting out bullying behavior that I had endured myself. I can make the excuse that I was a child myself. The teen who raped me when I was 12 could say the same thing. I can say that I have suffered long and hard over that act of abuse of power by feeling that part of my being raped repeatedly and once gang raped was my getting what I deserved and still carrying that guilt even after getting what I saw as what I deserved.

To tell the truth, it has even crossed my mind in the five years since someone broke into the house and raped me at gun point with a flashlight I kept in the room that that too was punishment somehow. And still, I continue to punish myself.

I realize now that part of my getting in to BDSM and letting over sadistic doms hurt me well beyond the point where it is no longer pleasurable is part of my guilt and needing punishment.

To forgive anyone for what they did to me I have to get through the anger, but first I have to get through the guilt. I have suffered for what I did, yes. But so has that little girl, no doubt, and she probably still suffers.

I would not ask her to forgive me, but I MUST forgive myself because the guilt, far from making me try to be a better person, only makes me feel that I am bad no matter what I do so there is simply no point in trying to be a better person.

But I still struggle with thoughts like wondering if that girl at some later point may have killed herself and how much would my abuse have had to do with it, and that's probably a factor in my own history of suicidal impulses.

So where does it end for me, this guilt? After roasting for eons in the fundamentalist Christian hell? No, because in that scenario I have forgone redemption so the infinite suffering is an infinite waste of suffering. It serves no purpose--other perhaps than to eternally satisfy the need of the victim for revenge (assuming that need to be also eternal).

Right now I feel as though I am in a kind of state of psudo-forgiveness born out of feeling that I MUST forgive my perps if I am to feel like I have any right at all to forgive myself. It's like forgiving because don't deserve to be angry. That isn't real forgiveness. It's more just guilt driven self denial or something like that.

Guilt seems like it has become a fixture in my psyche. It's long past being a feeling. It has become part of who I am. Is there any hope of changing that?


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#250613 - 09/22/08 05:34 PM Re: guilt and forgiveness *triggers* [Re: blueshift]
Trucker51 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
Michael, (M3), Ken Singer, and I wrote responses to a topic that Lewis (KingTut) started on this forum that I think that you might find helpful with that aspect of your search. It is long past time to quit blaming yourself for a minor incident of juvenile expermentation at an age long before you should have been sexually aware. Your need or desire for punishment seems more like a re-enactment issue to me, and that too is going to have to go in order to begin to value yourself. As long as your are stuck feeling guilt and shame your self-esteem is stuck in low gear, so to speak. Where are you at with alcohol or drugs?

Quit beating yourself up. Quit taking out your anger on yourself and direct it more productively, towards those who abused you and towards your own recovery. Eventually you will come to value yourself enough and raise your self-esteem enough to find your way to freedom.

There is hope. Recovery is possible.

Mark

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"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#250616 - 09/22/08 05:57 PM Re: guilt and forgiveness *triggers* [Re: Trucker51]
M3 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
((Doug))
This is what Mark is referring too Forgiveness.

Peace and love...

Michael


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#250625 - 09/22/08 07:26 PM Re: guilt and forgiveness *triggers* [Re: M3]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Thanks guys. I did read that post which is what got me started thinking about it. I know that guilt seems like something I should know better than to go on feeling. The problem is that at this point knowing better does no good. I would never judge someone else for having done something similar at that age, but that's different. And that makes no sense at all either.





Edited by blueshift (09/22/08 07:27 PM)
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#250639 - 09/22/08 08:47 PM Re: guilt and forgiveness *triggers* [Re: blueshift]
M3 Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
I know what you mean Doug, that was really hard for me. Here is what helped me. His name is Nick. He's the five year old that lives across the street. I get in touch with little Mikey by playing Legos or transformers with Nick. Looking into Nick's eyes and witnessing his innocents, how could he be guilty for anything being done to him.

Having a physical example for me to project little Mikey onto really helped me connect with his innocence. It allowed me to really understand that he and I aren't guilty for anything that happened and I was able to finally give that guilt back to all of my abusers.

Have lunch in a park, visit a friend with children, family, whatever, but really look into the eyes of a child try to connect with little Doug when he was that age. It might help.


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#250687 - 09/23/08 04:26 AM Re: guilt and forgiveness *triggers* [Re: M3]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
I can do that with your avatar. I know what you mean, I have had that experience and it does help. I just don't know if anything will permanently remove it though. It's part of a bigger conglomeration of shames that seem to tie in to my belief that nothing really good can ever happen to me. I can will good things to happen to me and make them happen but as soon as they do, I have to find a way to blow it all to pieces.

It's a tragic comedy. Or a humorous tragedy, or both.


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#250704 - 09/23/08 10:26 AM Re: guilt and forgiveness *triggers* [Re: blueshift]
M3 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
As you tease it all out, piece by piece, and put the shame where it belongs, it will work out. Have faith and believe you can heal. We all go through periods where we doubt and want to give up when we see how much work we have yet to do. But when we look at how much we've accomplished and look to examples of successful recovery, we can begin to re-energize and refocus on what needs to get done.

Eventually, you'll realize that you really do deserve for positive things to happy and you will stop sabotaging them. For me, this took all of my energy to work out the layers and tangles of shame, weeding my out sexuality from the abuse, and learning to heal my inner boy instead of trying to silence him. Then, I finally felt worthy of good things.

Peace and love Doug....

Michael


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#250754 - 09/23/08 04:27 PM Re: guilt and forgiveness *triggers* [Re: M3]
blueshift Offline
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 1242
Loc: infinity
Your right, Micheal. I tend to paint everything hopeless when I'm depressed and I've been pretty down lately.


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