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#250335 - 09/20/08 08:02 AM About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States

Wonderful system isn't it? They privatize the profits for the already rich and politically connected, then socialize the risk to the Joe six-pack pee-ons like me. I say let the depression begin! It's going to happen anyway.


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#250340 - 09/20/08 08:48 AM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Hauser]
M3 Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
You should discuss this with the political leader on the banking deregulation movement and chairman of the Commerce Committee... John McCain.


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#250344 - 09/20/08 09:55 AM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: M3]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11088
Loc: Denver, CO
We should never have gone to paper money. It always fails.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#250348 - 09/20/08 10:44 AM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: FormerTexan]
M3 Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
ROTFL!!


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#250365 - 09/20/08 02:06 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: M3]
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
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Did you mean THIS McCain? (I wasn't quite sure who you meant) I easily confuse this guy (one who claims to be in favor of small government and free markets) with another person who's soon to be General Secretary of the Proletariat here in the U.S.


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#250372 - 09/20/08 03:02 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Hauser]
Trucker51 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
I saw some piece on Fox News this morning where they were trying to blame Bill Clinton for this mess while ignoring all of the moves under the leadership of the Bush administration, like printing huge volumes of unsupported extra cash thereby enabling more and more risky debt, huge tax cuts and unfunded mandates, not to mention misleading us all into a war in Iraq, and deregulating various aspects of, and/or removing many safeguards of, the financial market system. When runaway growth didn't happen following questionable tax reductions that might have covered the devaluation of our Dollar, combined with huge trade deficits, various kinds of short-selling and debt-rating issues, the Federal Reserve was forced to raise interest rates that caused a huge number of defaults in adjustable mortgages, which are always riskier than fixed-rate mortgages. The resulting shortage of credit and the declining value of our currency against stronger foreign currencies caused prices for fuel and imports to skyrocket, followed by transport costs. The shortage of credit also created a glut of homes for sale, thereby driving down home values, as too few potential buyers have been able to qualify for mortgages. Last night it was revealed that a 30% to 40% down-payment is almost always required for mortgage approval these days. And the home foreclosure crisis is certainly not over yet.

Let's see: $200-$250 Billion to bail-out Fannie & Freddie plus the shareholder loss of equity value there, the Lehman bankruptcy where $20 per share in value was wiped-out from last Friday to Monday and $60/share since last Spring, $59 billion that we didn't have to stabilize our markets Tuesday after the Lehman bankruptcy, $83 Billion more on Wednesday for the AIG bailout plus the loss of value to shareholders, (whose failure would have bankrupted the finances of New York State and NYC, and the New Jersey State pension fund, among many others, and did leave the common shareholders in the lurch), $50 Billion more on Thursday to stabilize a panic in money market accounts, and now $700+ Billion more or it's doomsday???

I liked one sentence that Senator Saunders said on Fox Business yesterday. He said, "If a company is too big to fail, than it is too big to exist". Did any of you guys see either of Fox News' interviews of Senator Saunders yesterday? If he gets his way, this bailout isn't going through without a fight or substantial considerations from the Republicans and the Bush administration on certain Democratic issues, like a housing bailout plan, and the Senator wants an emergency tax levied on incomes above a certain level too.

Stay tuned, because next week could be a lot like watching a category 5 hurricane wipe-out Washington, D.C, as well as the presidential hopes of the Commerce Chairman and his juvenile delinquent new sidekick.

Did you see precious metals recover? Our money is going to be worth a lot less with $1 trillion in bailouts and inflation is starting to become a problem again. All of the damage from Hurricane Ike is only estimated in the $10-$15 Billion range. Oil was up $11/barrel since Monday, and up $6/barrel just on Friday.

To quote Stretch, "hang-on, it's going to be a bumpy ride".

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#250376 - 09/20/08 03:30 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Trucker51]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11088
Loc: Denver, CO
Mike,

I can see where this is a hard thing to hear. This article may be useful in helping to see why paper money is a terrible medium of exchange.

Andy

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#250423 - 09/21/08 12:57 AM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: FormerTexan]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6452
Loc: Right Behind You!
You ever feel a bitch of a storm coming?

_________________________
Keep the others in your life happy - Comply Comply Comply

The Aftermath Video

My Absolute Hero!

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#250435 - 09/21/08 02:14 AM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Still]
WalkingSouth Offline
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Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
[rant]

What sucks in my opinion is those same banks that are now failing were predatory in their pursuit of loaning people money. From credit cards to auto and home loans they were going after the people they knew were high risk using predatory tactics. Now that the chickens have come home to roost they want the same people they screwed to bail them out...

[/rant]

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#250638 - 09/22/08 08:42 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: WalkingSouth]
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
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http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_c...financial_firms

"Just 7% Favor Fed Bailout for Financial Firms"

Wednesday, September 17, 2008


This IS total bullshit. What Bush and the Bush-bots are effectively doing is price-fixing. What do I mean by this? Well, I'm sorry to tell most of you home-owners out there, but your particle-board, pvc pipe-built houses are OVERPRICED. If the Bush-bots would stop subsidizing this economic engine that is fueled by debt and all-too-easy credit, the price of homes would COME down and I could afford to buy one of these cheaply built\over-priced homes.

I mean, COME ON, think about it. WHY on earth does a house that took 4 or 5 thousand man-hours to build, costs 300 THOUSAND+ dollars? I mean, these homes don't even come with bomb shelters or razor wire guard towers or anything really COOL, they're just cheaply built homes with newer windows, and they want $300,000 for these things? No WONDER there is a glut of unsold homes, they're OVERPRICED and only those people who get a windfall or go to college for 6 years can afford them.

Oh, and what about our "representatives" that claim to act in our best interests and reflect our collective will? Well, the article above pretty much says it all.

I'm cashing in my 401k tomorrow and buying shares in an Icelandic fishing company or something that can't be touched by these lying, contemptible jerks.

I think I'll start a new political party, called the National American Socialist Workers Party. With a name like that, the politicians should clamor for our votes and endorsements in short time.

Ok, enough ranting, hehe.




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#250645 - 09/22/08 09:12 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Still]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6872
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
You ever feel a bitch of a storm coming?


perfect storm

Allen

puffer


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#250685 - 09/23/08 03:23 AM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Hauser]
Trucker51 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
Might I suggest buying gold or a gold mutual fund, like Van Eck Global's Int'l Inv. Gold Fund, which was up 7.5% yesterday. Too bad that you didn't do this a week ago. If you can't afford gold, silver is much more affordable. And I know where you can buy a quality-built 50 year-old house just 20 miles south of where you are living for under $125K, but you will have to put 30% down and have a credit score of 780 to qualify for the financing, and it is in a questionable neighborhood.

My wife is trying to get rid of her parent's old house in SW Denver and she would be willing to take a rent-to-own buyer if she can't find anyone to qualify for what she wants for the house. The house is right off of Sheridan and US 285. It has 4 bedrooms and 2 baths, and is around 2600 sq ft including the partially-finished basement. The house is in move-in condition. True, it is 50 years old, but it has all new mechanical, electrical, roof and appliances, plus it is set-up with grab bars in the baths for seniors/handicapped. On a rent-to-own she might take $187K for it. It is walking distance to major shopping, a public library, public transport, and a casino bus!

I would hurry up and buy before our monetary system and our currency collapses, and rents skyrocket. In Brazil a few years back, their currency was loosing value by half every week. And several international currency traders came out today and said that the Dollar would be "crushed" if the bailout bill passes. If it doesn't pass, an even worse scenario is possible. I am still hoping that Uncle Sam will see fit to make about a year of my house payments for me so that I can catch-up too!!!

My Iraqi Dinars are looking better every minute that this goes on!!!

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#250698 - 09/23/08 08:07 AM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Trucker51]
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
I could afford those overpriced homes if:

I weren't taxed for anything
If I didn't buy food
If I didn't have a car to maintain or gas to buy
If I didn't have to pay for any kind of insurance

Trust me Mark, I'm not in the market for a house


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#250782 - 09/23/08 08:04 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Hauser]
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
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DEAR AMERICAN:

I NEED TO ASK YOU TO SUPPORT AN URGENT SECRET BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP WITH A TRANSFER OF FUNDS OF GREAT MAGNITUDE.

I AM MINISTRY OF THE TREASURY OF THE REPUBLIC OF AMERICA. MY COUNTRY HAS HAD CRISIS THAT HAS CAUSED THE NEED FOR LARGE TRANSFER OF FUNDS OF 800 BILLION DOLLARS US. IF YOU WOULD ASSIST ME IN THIS TRANSFER, IT WOULD BE MOST PROFITABLE TO YOU.

I AM WORKING WITH MR. PHIL GRAM, LOBBYIST FOR UBS, WHO WILL BE MY REPLACEMENT AS MINISTRY OF THE TREASURY IN JANUARY. AS A SENATOR, YOU MAY KNOW HIM AS THE LEADER OF THE AMERICAN BANKING DEREGULATION MOVEMENT IN THE 1990S. THIS TRANSACTIN IS 100% SAFE.

THIS IS A MATTER OF GREAT URGENCY. WE NEED A BLANK CHECK. WE NEED THE FUNDS AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. WE CANNOT DIRECTLY TRANSFER THESE FUNDS IN THE NAMES OF OUR CLOSE FRIENDS BECAUSE WE ARE CONSTANTLY UNDER SURVEILLANCE. MY FAMILY LAWYER ADVISED ME THAT I SHOULD LOOK FOR A RELIABLE AND TRUSTWORTHY PERSON WHO WILL ACT AS A NEXT OF KIN SO THE FUNDS CAN BE TRANSFERRED.

PLEASE REPLY WITH ALL OF YOUR BANK ACCOUNT, IRA AND COLLEGE FUND ACCOUNT NUMBERS AND THOSE OF YOUR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN TO WALLSTREETBAILOUT@TREASURY.GOV SO THAT WE MAY TRANSFER YOUR COMMISSION FOR THIS TRANSACTION. AFTER I RECEIVE THAT INFORMATION, I WILL RESPOND WITH DETAILED INFORMATION ABOUT SAFEGUARDS THAT WILL BE USED TO PROTECT THE FUNDS.

YOURS FAITHFULLY MINISTER OF TREASURY PAULSON

(courtesy of lewrockwell.com)


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#250852 - 09/24/08 03:15 AM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Hauser]
Trucker51 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
Just as long as they will kick-in $50K or so to be applied to my debts I am all for the bailout. If there is no benefit for the little guys, why should we all be forced to bail-out the big guys? I have heard Republicans deriding the average Joe's who bought way more home than they could afford, but whose fault is it that Treasury and the Federal Reserve approved printing-up the huge amounts of extra cash that made all of those risky loans and the great rise in home prices possible in the first place? Deregulation of the financial markets, massive outsourcing of our manufacturing jobs, the tech bubble, massive speculating on oil futures and housing, and the many factors that led to 9/11 were all the little guy's fault too, right? If a lot of us don't have jobs or jobs where pay keeps pace with inflation, it isn't any wonder that many of us can't buy houses, let alone afford to vacation or splurge on restaurant meals, credit crisis or not.

It was amazing to watch as one of the business channels today lambasted Bush's failed Presidency. He has presided over 4 huge crisises that have been poorly dealt with and led us into an expensive and unnecessary war on purposely flawed evidence, mainly to benefit the financial fortunes of a number of his close supporters. Like Senator Bernie Saunders has said, maybe they should be the ones to pay the lion's share of the cost of the bailout, if indeed one is warranted. Late today it was announced that the FBI was looking into allegations of massive fraud at a number of big financial firms including all of the most recent casualties so this thing could get really ugly yet. So far it sounds like one last attempt to raid the cookie jar one last time before the money train stops come January, and to saddle the next President with such a huge debt that no real increase in social spending will be possible for many years.

Wait and see, it's not over yet.

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#251195 - 09/26/08 09:19 AM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Trucker51]
Trucker51 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
Three out of three so far. Who is next???

Wachovia has triple the bad mortgage debt that WaMu had.

Another Chrysler bailout possibly followed by....

General Motors???

Stay tuned.

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#251811 - 09/29/08 11:32 AM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Hauser]
Marissa Offline


Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 67
I (sort of) wish I knew and understood more about how all of this works.

I guess the question that comes to my mind is - why are we blaming the governement, the politicians, and whoever else instead of just going to directly to the jackass(es) that signed the loan papers giving people money when they really couldn't afford it?

Seems to me that if you lend someone money and then they can't pay you back, you're just SOL. Your loss - lend smarter next time. Close the place down and go live under a rock in a street somewhere until you manage to scrounge up a job at the local fast food chain.

And I compleetly agree with those that say they are privitizing profit and socializing loss. Complete Bullshit.


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#251814 - 09/29/08 11:41 AM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Marissa]
M3 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
Dear President Bush, Congress and the Senate,

I could use a bailout too, and I promise that it will be much cheaper than bailing out the bank's stock holders so they don't have to down grade from their Rolls Royce to a Mercedes. So, if you can sneak me into the bailout bill, I'd really appreciate it!

Thank you!

Michael


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#251817 - 09/29/08 11:46 AM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: M3]
LN3(SS) Offline
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Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 486
Loc: MD
Let me weigh in on one part of the recent bailouts. I think this could be expanded to include the HUGE package Congress is going to consider this week.

AIG Bailout

I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG.

Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in a We Deserve It Dividend. To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bona fide U.S. Citizens 18+. Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up.

So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billon that hat equals $425,000.00.

My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a We Deserve It Dividend.

Of course, it would NOT be tax free. So let's assume a tax rate of 30%.

Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes. That sends $25,500,000,000 right back to Uncle Sam.

But it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket. A husband and wife have $595,000.00.

What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00 in your family?
Pay off your mortgage - housing crisis solved.
Repay college loans - what a great boost to new grads
Put away money for college - it'll be there
Save in a bank - create money to loan to entrepreneurs.
Buy a new car - create jobs
Invest in the market - capital drives growth
Pay for your parent's medical insurance - health care improves
Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean - or else

Remember this is for every adult U S Citizen 18+ including the folks who lost their jobs at Lehman Brothers and every other company that is cutting back and of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces.

If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it.

If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every adult U S Citizen 18+!

As for AIG - liquidate it. Sell off its parts. Let American General go back to being American General. Sell off the real estate. Let the private sector bargain hunters cut it up and clean it up.

Here's my rationale. We deserve it and AIG doesn't. Sure it's a crazy idea that can "never work." But can you imagine the Coast-To-Coast Block Party!

How do you spell Economic Boom?

I trust my fellow adult Americans to know how to use the $85 Billion We Deserve It Dividend more than I do the geniuses at AIG or in Washington DC. And remember, The Family plan only really costs $59.5 Billion because $25.5 Billion is returned instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam.

I feel so much better getting that off my chest.

Kindest personal regards,
A Creative Guy & Citizen.

Brian

_________________________
"When we go into battle, I will be the first to set foot on the field, and I will be the last to step off, and I will leave no one behind. Dead, or alive, we will all come home together." LTG Hal Moore, Jr., USA (Ret.)

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#251818 - 09/29/08 12:00 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: LN3(SS)]
Marissa Offline


Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 67
Damn, Brian - have you faxed that to the White House yet?

It's the best sounding plan I've heard yet.



Edited by Marissa (09/29/08 12:00 PM)

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#251821 - 09/29/08 12:31 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Marissa]
M3 Offline
Member
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
You're right Brian, trickle down economic's downfall was when it became fashionable and economically prudent to buy and invest overseas (mainly because of US government tax breaks if you do so). So as we cut taxes for the rich giving them lots more spendable income, they took that income and began buying foreign products and investing in foreign countries to take advantage of these additional tax breaks. That made them more money, but the trickle down stopped.

Two other big concerns we aren't talking about:

1) the RNC wants our agriculture industry to be run like Europe does - Americans should OWN farms, not farm farms. Farming should be done by seasonal workers who don't qualify for minimum wages or unionization and should be brought into the country to plant and harvest and then sent home for the rest of the year. This will put a hell of a lot of Americans out of work.

2) the RNC, beginning with a 1984 document, continues to undermine public schools by discounting their progress and making them sound like they are failing worse than they are. The goal is to completely cut all federal funding for education by privatizing ALL school through the charter school movement. Not only forces the cost of education back onto the parents (to allow the markets to work but further stratifying education by class) but also breaks all teachers unions because most charter schools aren't unionized (I taught in one charter school teachers here make 80% of what public school teachers make, work longer days, don't get planning periods, and fewer benefits).

So much for having a better educated workforce. The problem is, most of our kids are over qualified for the jobs that are out there in the service industry as the corporate world guts middle management and then they get tax breaks and bail outs.

In my case, I have 20 years experience, I've won national awards in my industry, and after getting laid off from a company that made software for banks after business dropped from 9/11, I can't get work. I'm over experienced, under educated (two masters degrees), over educated, skills are getting rusty from too much management, not enough experience in this particular industry, etc. etc. etc. That's why I tried to switch to teaching - union job with pension, twenty-five year and retire at 66. However, in Ohio, they are laying off teachers with a masters and 10 years (the masters is required by law within the first 5) because no one can afford to pay anyone but first year teachers. The economy is bad and tax revenues that fund the schools is dropping and costs from No Child Left Behind are going up. So, hopefully becoming a therapist and owning my own business will be better.

Bush and the RNC want the US to be an Ownership country. But if everyone owns the businesses, who is going to work there?

Sorry, I'll shut up now.

<Stepping off the Soapbox>


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#251823 - 09/29/08 12:41 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Marissa]
dgoods Offline
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Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
Well, let's see- i was recently informed that due to lack of work, i wouldn't be needed at the factory where i'd been working as a temp for two weeks, and there isn't anything immediately available. Looks like rice and beans again for a while, i just hope i can afford rent and car insurance this month...
Where's my freakin' "bailout"?
"Let them eat cake."

"Forget that yucky ol' 'economic meltdown' stuff, let's watch that Sarah Palin swimsuit clip again!"

Panem et circenses, indeed.

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

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#251824 - 09/29/08 12:52 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: dgoods]
M3 Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
As Deborah Pryce, my congress woman and leader in the congress Republicans put it best. "This is the most exciting time in my political career. It's not about Palin's experience or record, it's that she's a woman and we should vote for her." I about died, that was the last thing I ever expected to come out of her mouth...


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#251842 - 09/29/08 02:17 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: M3]
M3 Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
DOWN IN DEFEAT!!! WALLSTREET SELLOFF!!!

Profiteers are waiting in the wings. Republicans fail to support the bailout and drive down Wall Street values. As soon as the recovery plan is put into place, buy fast because Wall Street will rebound and making A LOT of people A LOT OF MONEY!! This will be better than a tax cut if you're rich - all the money you make now is only taxed 15% because it is capital gains...


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#251845 - 09/29/08 02:24 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: M3]
M3 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
THREAD HIJACKED!!!!

Sorry guys, I'm ranting and raving today. Just gave in to apply to UPS to work part-time nights. They are a great employer here in town for college students paying $11.50-$12.50 an hour part-time, plus insurance and tuition reimbursement up to $3000 per year.

OH, my bad, they have dropped their insurance and the wages are now $8.50-$9.50 per hour.

Job postings for full-time web design/management positions here in Columbus are being posted for $21,800 as salaried positions expecting you to know graphic design, photography and programming and have 3-5 years experience. I used to make $125 an hour doing this.


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#251850 - 09/29/08 02:36 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: M3]
Trucker51 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
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Last night on one of the business channels on DirectTV, it was suggested by some pro-Republican commentator that the most responsible thing that Sarah Palin could do, was withdraw her name from the Republican ticket, suggesting that she has become a gross liability to the Republican ticket. It is obvious that all kinds of questions and scandals are becoming a real problem for Mrs. Palin and her seccessionist husband.

Was I right on Wachovia? Would that make it 4 out of 4? And I watched an interesting discussion with the CEO of Ambac, another insurance company tied heavily into the mortgage crisis, that faces a possible credit rating downgrade today over its attempt to acquire some low-risk government bond capital in an effort to decrease their risk portfolio.

Nancy Pelosi and Barney Frank said that they hoped to get the Senate to vote on the bailout by later in the week, and earlier last week, another analyst on Fox Business suggested that he would put in a buy order around Dow 9,900. Considering that figured for inflation, since the end of President Clinton's term, Dow should be at 18,000-20,000 just to keep pace, we are in a very serious recession if not a depression. There are a lot of parallels between the collapse of financial and other stock values now and various financial, railroad, and industrial stock values in 1929. Could we be heading for another Great Depression?

One thing is certain. The Chinese don't want to underwrite any more of our debt if we can't stay away from printing-up huge amounts of new non-backed currency to keep the good times rolling. Would you want to lend someone $100 then get paid back with interest with a currency that is worth substantially less than it was when you lent it out? This is essentially the problem that has caused this mess. Our national debt is over $10 trillion and Treasury has repeatedly printed-up huge amounts of new money to essentially "prime the pump" with the hopes that the ensuing growth would cover the shorter-term loss in value to our currency. It worked for Bill Clinton, but for G. W, the same basic strategy has backfired in a tremendous way.

What we going to do? The mother of all bailouts will devalue our currency even more and make it less likely that anyone will underwrite any more of our national debt. But the alternative will make it virtually impossible to sell houses, cars, and productive equipment except to cash buyers. It's not a huge problem immediately, but over time, a lot of cars and productive machinery and equipment will become obsolete or run-down, which will eventually cost productive capability and competitiveness. Imagine what virtually no-growth concurrent with a period of increasing obsolescence would do to our economy, along with an immediate loss of the ability to sell homes or any major consumer product or business equipment except for cash?

That is why the bailout is preferable to the alternative. How much in the way of readily-convertible assets does the average American have? Remember, you can't sell your house or your car except at a fire-sale price to a cash buyer. How about bank savings, stocks, or other financial instruments including retirement plans? I'm sure that our government will act to prevent any kind of run on the banks. Did you guys get to see any of the video footage of the long lines at several of the suspect financial institutions ATMs over the weekend? And now comes word of fuel shortages in the southeastern US. And if you missed it, a British commercial mortgage institution and a Dutch mortgage insurer went under over the weekend. Wachovia was 18.75 Friday morning and gone today.

Readily-convertible means precious commodities. This would include various shorter futures and precious metals. Without the bailout, in just 3 years, unemployment could be as high as 30% to 50%. (Unemployment is already 20% to 30% in large areas of Michigan and Ohio and a few other older major industrial cities). Do you have enough in the way of readily-convertible assets to last 5-10 years? If the answer is no, you had better vote for the bailout, or get ready to join the Army, or the Army of the unemployed. In essence this means get ready.

Maybe now (while you can still afford to do so) would be a good time to buy a wheelbarrow and a grain shovel, so that you can take enough money with you to the store to buy groceries. Maybe a couple of good gold pans or a sluice box too, along with a good tent, a couple of foam mattresses, a cookstove for wood, an axe and a pickaxe, certain vegetable or fruit seeds, a couple 24-packs of TP, enough canned goods to last at least one winter, some other survival stuff like a hand-crank radio and flashlight, even maybe a small generator too, Then get an ATV with a trailer to haul all of your worldly possessions as far off of the road as you can get, including a large tank for extra gas. And don't forget to buy several guns and plenty of bullets for when times get really rough.

Let the good times roll....

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#251880 - 09/29/08 04:31 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Trucker51]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
Almost 800 points!!! Just think: 13 more days like today and the DOW will be in negative territory. And it will be until at least next week before the Congress can pass another bailout bill. I'm going to revise my buy order to DOW 8,000 and wait and see!!! I'll be surprised if anyone votes for the Republicans come November. Maybe that is their strategy: No one will be able to afford to go to vote.

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#251881 - 09/29/08 04:51 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Trucker51]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6452
Loc: Right Behind You!
My losses, in exact terms = holy FKING FK!!!

Need to refill my Xanax wall-dispenser

Anyone wanna buy some apples?

_________________________
Keep the others in your life happy - Comply Comply Comply

The Aftermath Video

My Absolute Hero!

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#251890 - 09/29/08 05:38 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Still]
M3 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
Oh mother of...

My portfolio lost 18% in the last two weeks.


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#252014 - 09/30/08 12:29 AM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: M3]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
National City and Sovereign were down by over 60% today and Key Bank was down almost 35%. Now we know why Key Bank was trying to sell CDs 9 days ago for almost 5%. Several banking entities in Australia were down heavily when their markets opened a few hours ago, including one big mortgage bank that is down well below $2 (Aus) per share. Congress reconvenes Thursday but any new bailout plan will have to please more lawmakers. To get the 40% of Democrats that voted against today's plan, some kind of mortgage relief for homeowners will have to be included, which will lose still more of the Republican vote. Then the Senate can't vote through normal procedures until several days later. Five European financial institutions went under over the weekend. Even that nutty Cramer looked really worried when he suggested the possibility of our suffering the Great Depression II tonight on his show.

If your portfolio is down 18% in two weeks, how much is it down since June, back when our beloved leaders were praising the strength of our economy? (Now we know for sure that what they did was an old Enron tactic designed to placate fear and keep as many people as possible in the markets). My one plan was down from its high last Fall by just over 20% when I pulled it to their Money Market back in June. The other plan has no really safe haven, but their bond fund has been down by over 10% since March. And now Morgan Stanley's Money Market may not be safe either. Gee, I wonder if Key Bank is still offering 5%? Maybe I could get an IRA there instead???

What happens if we can't get a bailout done until after the election or even until after the inauguration???

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#252066 - 09/30/08 10:37 AM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: Trucker51]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11088
Loc: Denver, CO
If you can, get into metals. Not metals stocks, I mean the actual metals.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#252086 - 09/30/08 12:28 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: FormerTexan]
M3 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 1392
Loc: Central Ohio
I took your advice Andy. Put on some Metallica to play along with and blew my amp. Better go back to acoustic. \:\(


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#252241 - 09/30/08 11:39 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: M3]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11088
Loc: Denver, CO
Dup post.



_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

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#252242 - 09/30/08 11:39 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: M3]
FormerTexan Offline
Site Administrator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11088
Loc: Denver, CO
Hm. I'm wondering if I should clarify.

Try some early Rush, Mike. (The band, not the talk show guy)





_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


If I could meet myself as a boy...

Top
#252243 - 09/30/08 11:53 PM Re: About the Banking Crisis/Bailouts [Re: FormerTexan]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
I blew my speakers once with 50 watts per channel in combination with Highway to Hell and Powerage so I know how it feels.

I saw some banking management-level jobs open in the Denver Post a week or two ago. I can't remember what bank though.

I didn't know that you were looking.

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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