Bridges, skyscapers, the space shuttle, the space station, innoculation, disease's beating, the microchip, computers, union's, democracy, enternal combustion, the splitting of the atom, medical miracles, cell's, DNA, sociology, psychology, ecology, physiology, Human right's, racial right's, women's right's, gay right's, personal right's, "the state has no place in the bedroom's of the nation" ( Pierre Treudeau, Canadian Prime Minister), Dance, art, Ballet, sculpture, poetry.....Love

For all we've done, for all we know intellectualy, for all our advancement, for all that we've done to move forward. I'm still on the outside looking in.

I'm still not a charactiziation of a man, and that still means something.

In the end we've come so far and fought so hard. But our greatest fear is still man FEELING emotion.

Wow, don't ya think guys? After all the movement, we still fear more than anything, a man feeling emotion's.

Seem's pretty sad that that is what's so fucking scary.

But then I've been here for awhile.

Stay strong
Mike

nothing boyos? Got Ya.

Hi Mike.

I just saw this. What makes me think is that with all those advancements, we are the same. My conclusion with what you shared is that people don't change. Yes, our ways of technological prowess and scientific discovery are ever changing an dmoving forward. But, the core of man, what's deep down inside, man's nature does not change. That which makes a human is the same as it was a thousand years ago. We still feel pain, and we still want to shelter ourselves.

Andy

Wow Andy, when my friend? I thank you for the reply. Do you think it will change? Another thousand years?

looking for the answer Andy, when am I acceptable?

When?

Or it is my fate to not be?

Mike

To me and the others here Mike, you are already acceptable. I guess my point is that human nature does not change, in spite of what everyone has tried to tell me. Do I sound cynical? Maybe, but I also figure I'm not lying based on my perception.

Mike,

A second read of your first post made me ponder the part about feeling emotions. I've not had this fear, but rather have been afraid of not feeling whatever it takes to get to the other side of the hurt. I know that if I feel something from the past related to the pain, then I'm moving forward in addressing some issue. If I don't feel it, then I'm missing the boat somehow.

Does any of this resonate with you?

A

Totally Andy. I said the other day that I feel "loopy" it was pointed out that loopy (how I'm feeling) is a continuation. a feeling of going round and round. a feeling that has no end.

When do my feeling's end? round and round and round. It has no end, round and round. The key point is round and round, It speaks to my life, when does the circle end and I move forward. I often look forward but when I feel the progress I end up at the start again.

It seem's so futile sometimes

Work!!!! more fucking work

Trying Andy!!!

Guess I'm getting there, but so much F....ing work.

I'm a little tired

When?


Just want some pay-off, where's the stinking Karma

Stay strong
Mike

I'm thinking that there had better be some lottery pay-offs soon if Karma is going to start getting to all of us! Or maybe we should just all go in together and buy shared tickets. You'd think the Karma due the to 5600 or so of us pooled together we'd come up with the winning numbers...

Mike:

I saw your post last night and I gave it some thought. I was tired from doing a bunch of mountain driving yesterday and my belly was full of prime rib. So before I could give it much thought, the giant recliner had me for lunch again. Today I spent more time and even did some research trying to fully develop a response. I have ended up with three different trains of thought which are only somewhat connected, but I thought that I would share them with you to try to elicit further dialogue.

First off, I found something interesting in Mic Hunter's book ABUSED BOYS, in Chapter 13, which is Daniel's Story. I started on page 209 about halfway down the page, then read both forwards and back trying to get some history and develop my response. I then re-read the entire story, which starts on page 203, and with much greater understanding/empathy than I had previously.

Secondly, it seems to me that most of us older guys were raised in an era where men having feelings and emotional needs or outbursts was looked at far more negatively than is common nowadays. Over time, (and I can't fully speak for your society), there has been a societal shift away from the strong, unfeeling, and unemotional traditional male ethos, towards a developing trend where younger males are brought up to empathise with the needs of there fellow peers, and to feel and express more emotion than was common for the members of their strong and silent male forefathers. Certainly there are regional social, economic, and political differences in the ongoing gradual implementation of of this newer strategy, and there are of course holdouts who continue to support more traditional male roles also.

Thirdly, I believe that some of this change can be explained as a part of the normal human personal growth and aging process. As an example, when I was in my 20s, I used to think nothing of jumping out of a cabover semi tractor from 5 & 1/2 feet in the air. I used to take huge jumps on skis and crash & burn and get right up and do it again. By the time I was 30, it was becoming too painful to jump around like I used to, and as time progressed, the aches & pains got worse. In my day, it wasn't normal to feel, complain, or have much in the way of emotional needs either, as that was judged as weakness by my peers.

I entered my 2nd attempt at recovery at age 38, by which time I was still a pretty rough and uncaring individual, though I did have some noticeable physical degradation ongoing by then. It may have been the normal aging process coupled with my recovery but first I began to feel more emotion and began to have emotional pain, anger, and the need for emotional support. It made me feel really vulnerable and weak, just like Daniel says halfway down page 209 in his story. Daniel was a Vietnam veteran, and ABUSED BOYS was originally Mic Hunter's thesis, so Daniel was obviously a member of the more traditional male ethos, like you or I were or are.

You play hockey, which is a very physical and intimidating game, where weaknesses are quickly exploited. Even though Toronto has a large music and fine arts crowd, I don't know enough about any differences in societal makeup and expectations to really comment how those differences might affect your situation. I have been told by a couple of Australians that I lived with over time that their society is much more of a rough and tumble society than ours is slowly becoming. Most of the Canadians that I have met from Ontario seem to be a physically fit crowd who enjoy drinking beer. But that experience isn't enough to render judgement on your particular struggle with feelings of inadequacy or weakness brought on by feeling too much or having too much in the way of emotional needs. But if normal aging is a part of the equation, over time, as your physical abilities slowly degrade, you will become more empathetic, especially if you can enjoy the intimacy of a monogomous relationship.

I suggest reading Daniel's Story in full, with particular emphasis on page 209 and 210. Both he and I felt the personal weakness and inadequacy from our apparent failure to conform to our core beliefs about the traditional male ethos, and certainly it was a struggle getting from that point to a position of embracing our feelings, growing empathy, and emotions, and using those feelings and emotions in a more positive manner. As I have said before, I look back, and my past is so foreign that it seems like a different life. I'm still a large and outwardly intimidating physical guy, but I now possess empathy for others that I didn't possess before, I've gone from living a mostly isolated life filled with distrust to becoming a fairly confidant guy who is much more outgoing, and I have learned the ability to be assertive without being aggressive. My wife and my employer have been very supportive and helpful, and together they largely meet my emotional needs. I do have a few friends locally who are supportive too.

As I said, this is not a fully developed supportive response, but I hope that it might spur additional thought and discussion. I wanted to get you something as soon as possible, and so far this is all that I could come up with. And like Michael said, I'm sure that our karma would be much better if we were a lot better off and had a lot less to worry about.

Have hope Mike, we're all pulling for you,

Mark

I often question what is called "progress". Particularly with regard to technology. Is it really making life better, or just destroying the planet and making us all more isolated and alone?

But there I'm seeing in black and white again. I don't believe in any ultimate victory of good over bad or vice versa. There will always be black and white in everything..but the colors in between are what I live for.