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#2511 - 07/31/06 06:35 PM Re: I give up
Jaysen Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 680
Fair enough...
Stupid reason # 1 - I asked for it. I don't mean that I did anything wrong, I mean I verbally asked for it.

Does that count?


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#2512 - 08/01/06 01:01 AM Re: I give up
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
GONG! :p Not a stupid reason at all. Lots of abused kids do things simply because they are so wrecked and devastated by abuse they just don't care anymore. The man who abused me was able to get me to call him "Daddy" and ask him to do things using swear words I didn't even know yet. That's how worthless I felt.

But it doesn't need to come to that. Any boy needs and wants to feel special, important and loveable. If he is growing up in a dysfunctional household where he doesn't get that, he will feel emotionally starved and will be an easy target for a predator. The predator will befriend him, listen to him, and try to make him feel special. As the boy trusts the predator more and more, he doesn't notice that the friendship is getting into some very personal sexual territory. The boy thinks its okay because he trusts this friend who makes him feel special; he WANTS so badly for it all to be okay.

What the boy doesn't see is that the predator is grooming and manipulating him every step of the way. He KNOWS when he has enough power over the boy that if he asks the boy, "Do you want this?", and "Are you sure?", the boy will say yes. But what the boy is really doing is admitting that he wants so badly to feel special and loved, and he fears that if he says no, he isn't sure he wants what the predator has in mind, then the result will be rejection and loss of that love and special attention. That price is just too high for a neglected kid to pay.

So sorry bro, not a stupid reason at all. What happened to you shows how innocent and defenseless kids are, and how cruel abusers can be.

Try again??? ;\)

L.

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#2513 - 08/01/06 01:19 AM Re: I give up
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Asked for it? That's it? I asked for it, too. Hell, I don't feel guilty about saying it: to speak the plain truth, there was a day or two in there when I seriously couldn't wait to get home from school, so I could do it. It doesn't matter. Adults are supposed to make the moral decisions, not kids. Although to be fair, despite knowing this I admit it still made me feel guilty for a while.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#2514 - 08/01/06 02:01 AM Re: I give up
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
I remember building a fort with neighbor kid who was 6+ years older than me. I must have been about 8 at the time. I couldn't wait to get the fort finished so we could go in there and "have some fun". Yup. Been there. It was still devastating to me, but I had no way of knowing, and perhaps, neither did he. I felt guilt over that one for a while when I first started recovery not to mention every time he and I finished our "play" back when I was a kid.

I don't and won't go there any more. Waste of time because I'm not guilty. I had no way of knowing. This whole sex thing was way out of my league as a kid. How the hell was I supposed to know? Mom tried to tell me not to be "nasty", but she also abused me when she would catch me at it. WTF? What kind of a way to teach a kid is that?

Anyhow I've rambled here, but I think you get the point. I wasn't guilty.

Lots of love,

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#2515 - 08/01/06 12:55 PM Re: I give up
caointeoir Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 37
larry and jay, your conversation in this thread made me smile. you're both very clever.

jaysen, i don't exactly know what happened that made you feel like this. however, i have faith you will keep on going. there is more stuff i want to hear from you. it must be 'the season', i've felt rotten for a while myself. i'm confident it will pass. i'm confident you'll go on, continue to move forward. things will get better.

if you want to talk, i would feel good about listening any time.

and in the meantime - tool are embarking on a US arena tour in a few days, maybe they stop somewhere near your place and you can go there to give yourself a treat? http://www.toolband.com/tour/index.html


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#2516 - 08/01/06 01:50 PM Re: I give up
Trevor Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 778
Loc: Rhode Island
i have tool tickets
septembr 29th. tweeter center.

_________________________
My lamb and martyr, this will be over soon. You look so precious.

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#2517 - 08/01/06 11:30 PM Re: I give up
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Jay
another 'GONG' I'm afraid!

Quote:
Fair enough...
Stupid reason # 1 - I asked for it. I don't mean that I did anything wrong, I mean I verbally asked for it.

Does that count?
No, that don't count.

But I also thought it did.

You're 20 years younger than me so your memory shouldn't be as wrecked as mine is :rolleyes:
Think back to the grooming or other tactics your abuser(s) used, think hard about it however painful it is. Concentrate on the WORDS and PHRASES THEY USED.

My bet is that they used leading questions, verbal tricks and conditioning to lead you into giving the 'right' answer.
My main abusers were other pupils at the boarding school I went to, they were about 2 years older than me but even at 13yo they had a certain skill at manipulation that was extremely effective.
After the very first 'contact' with the ringleader I backed off, like any 11yo should do. So they used force, it's a long story.

After the rape / show of force I was in a position where refusal was pointless, so it would be easy to think that for them to continue the abuse all they had to do was issue threats. But it's far easier, and quite possibly more erotic, for them to have a victim that's complient.
Also, and this is possibly a greater influence amongst abusers, they relieve themselves of RESPONSIBILITY if they groom us into a situation where we ask them for sex, it eases their conscience.

I spent years asking my abusers for sex, I suggested different sex acts and positions, even asked for group sex.
All they had to do was ask me something something ( seemingly ) innocent such as "what are doing after class today ?" and even though I might have wanted to go and play rugby or something I 'knew' that the answer was "Nothing much, fancy a fuck?"

All the blame on me, none on them. The earlier grooming and rape didn't count for them, they'd got over that - if they had any guilt at all, which I doubt. The important thing for them was having me, and others, complient to their wishes.
I asked for sex, all they did in their own twisted reality was "do me a favour"

So, sorry Jay, that's not a good enough reason to go to the pity party!

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#2518 - 08/02/06 01:05 AM Re: I give up
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Jay,

Just to quote something Dave points out:

Quote:
My bet is that they used leading questions, verbal tricks and conditioning to lead you into giving the 'right' answer.
By the time the abused boy gets asked the kind of questions you refer to, the abuser has made DAMN sure that he will get the answers he wants. The boy doesn't even see it coming, and that's what makes this kind of betrayal so cruel. The boy genuinely DOES think he is agreeing to the abuse and even asking for it. He doesn't see he is being tricked and manipulated every step of the way.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#2519 - 08/02/06 01:35 AM Re: I give up
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Indeed; never underestimate the power of grooming. It's formidable, and NO child is capable of standing against it when the perp is determined.

To get us to do what they wanted to do, my perps didn't need to use force at all. First of all, they were adults - my friends' parents - and I'd been taught by my own parents to always listen to other adults. Secondly, they were real subtle about what they did. I heard someone say once that if you throw a frog into a pot of boiling water, it will jump out right away; however, put the frog in a pot of cold water and SLOWLY turn up the heat, the frog will stay until it's dead. The theory is that it keeps adjusting itself, and getting "used to" the added heat, so that it never realizes when it's too hot. I don't know how true that is in the literal sense - but figuratively, it applies to my abuse. It happened in little steps, each one just a little more "perverted" than the one before, so there was never a sudden "WTF" moment. When you're already used to ("being allowed to") walk around in only SOME clothes, it's not a big change walking around in barely any. When you're already having to change clothes in the same room together, it's not a terribly outrageous leap to having to take showers together, and so on.

To get me to keep quiet, my perps didn't have to resort to force, either. When we were finally led into doing what they wanted us to do, the context in which the matter was discussed assigned all the guilt to me. Sure, they talked a lot about how "normal" it was, and how "lots of people do it but just don't talk about it"; but they never let me forget that I was the one with something to lose. "Don't worry", they'd say, "we won't tell. We like you and don't want you to get in trouble." And I actually thanked them for that.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#2520 - 08/02/06 10:07 PM Re: I give up
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
It isn't the first time this has been mentioned on the board, but something Melliferal says in his last post really needs to be stressed:

Quote:
"Don't worry", they'd say, "we won't tell. We like you and don't want you to get in trouble." And I actually thanked them for that.
This is so classic isn't it? The abusers turn the whole process on its head and make the boy think that from the very start it was all HIS idea and now they are protecting him!

Here's an example from the crap I was told. The abuser didn't say: "You must never tell anyone. If you do, your Dad will be furious and throw you out of the house." What he did was phrase it in a way to make me feel as guilty as possible: "Don't worry, you can trust me. I would never tell anyone. I know your Dad would be furious and throw you out of the house if he knew."

No wonder an abused boy gets so confused. No wonder we have so many feelings that need to be rejected or reconsidered as we recover.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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