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#24903 - 02/18/04 05:29 AM Creating more problems
Angry_youth_86_Keith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 103
Loc: Olympia, Washington
I had a good convo with my T today. I was dicussing some of the things I noticed about ppl on the board and that sometimes if I came here to much I started to notice more and more that I felt crappy sometimes if i tryed to discuss my issues over and over agian.

He had a legit and interesting response. That sometimes we feel weird about not feeling all that mesed up but other ppl are so insistant that we have to be fuked up because of waht happend to us that we take something little that might bug us and make it something bigger. He is right I belive, and some of the ppl here I c are constantly deprssed or down. I really dont like seeing ppl like that. I wonder if it might be helpfull for them to look at things a little bit more on the side of going through what they know about what happend to them *it was wrong, not deserving of the abuse,They are away from those ppl now, they are not alone in what happend* and other things I belive most ppl here know and try to belive those things. I c ppl post alot of the same problems kinda and I sometimes come off with the impression of that they seem uncertain about things not that they dont know them. I guess what I am triyn to say is that maybe somewhere on some issues u feel fine about them but constantly rehashing them makes them bigger issues then they really are. I hope this helps.

_________________________
"Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity"- Greg Graffin

"Live fast, die young, leave a great looking corpse"-Ronny Van Zant

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#24904 - 02/18/04 10:40 AM Re: Creating more problems
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1122
keith,
you have raised valid points. sometimes i wonder myself if i make things more difficult than they need to be at times. it is not minimizing the crap we been through, or are going through, just that sometimes when there is something i do not understand about some aspect of my recovery that i make it out to be more then it is. an example is the fear i had about losing my identity. i wrote of this elsewhere, but what it really boiled down to was that i was afraid of facing something i never did before, not the loss of my identity, but full immersion of recall and reliving those moments that i have not yet done. on the one hand, i no longer fear losing my identity, and that is a good thing...now i just have to fear this. not much of a tradeoff it seems \:\) . i do thank you for the pause in thought that something might not be as bad as i think it is at first. take care, keith.

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

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#24905 - 02/18/04 11:52 AM Re: Creating more problems
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Hmmm, Keith.....you've said this to me before. In another form, I think.

It gave me a moment of pause then. Now, combined with some things MY therapist told me, I have to think about it again.

I will consider this, my friend.

Peace and love,

Scot

P.S. Thank you! \:D

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#24906 - 02/18/04 12:02 PM Re: Creating more problems
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
I guess I am one of the guys here who is more or less constantly depressed and down.

I feel guilty sometimes about using this site to vent that stuff. I really don't want to get anybody else down but on the other hand I have found a lot of support here that I did not receive before.

Since I have been treated for depression since I was 17 (now 49) I know what you mean about making a big thing out of things that if we saw them realistically are not all that big. They call it distorted thinking, all-or-nothing thinking, etc.

It is a symptom and about the only thing to help it is challenging it and trying to train the brain to work differently.

Doing something so positive for myself is difficult when I am caught up in low self-esteem (self-loathing, really).

Its a vicious sort of cycle. And if you have mood swings like I do, all that is exaggerated.

It is a challenge. That you have pointed it out actually helps put things in a more realistic light. I have been really struggling with this stuff recently and any help is good.

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#24907 - 02/18/04 03:46 PM Re: Creating more problems
survive75 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 304
Loc: Massachusetts
Honestly, I think it depends on a few things. For me, I have always been fucked up and never attributed it to my abuse until recently. So, I guess, sometimes I feel like I get to wallow in it since I went without a "why" for so long.

My therapist has done a lot of work with me on finally letting the "child" parts of me come out and speak. And one thing I've learned is that to children, EVERYTHING is big. Not getting a cookie before dinner, waking up from a nightmare, forgetting something for school... it can seem like the end of the world to them. And I think adults forget that and see the world with all of their bigger problems (a mortgage, car repairs, etc.) and diminish the feelings of the kid. Just because a child's feelings seem silly to an adult doesn't make them any less real to the child feeling them. So, now, throw some BIG problems at a little kid, and I think it's inevitable that our minds are going to have trouble processing all of this as we grow into adults.

I was told a lot as a kid and a teenager that I was "making a mountain out of a molehill" and to "just get over it." I know that it always hurt to feel so... not understood.

And I know here, despite what I write about, there is someone else who can relate and understand and the "mountain" I may or may not have created gets a little smaller for me when that happens.

-Sean

_________________________
-Sean

"Even though I know/I donít want to know/Yeah I guess I know/I just hate how it sounds"

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#24908 - 02/18/04 04:00 PM Re: Creating more problems
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
Reading replies to what I write here, especially when I am frustrated with what seems a really big problem, is a reality check for me.

I got the same kinds of messages when I was a kid S-75.

My T is helping me to see that while I would be very attendant to another child's needs, interests, and perceptions, I do not apply these things to my own "child-part."

That is what I am trying to practice but some days it is very hard. It sort of backfires sometimes taking me right back to where I was all those years ago. Other times, like today, I feel strong and a good listener to that kid. Together we can say (write) some pretty positive things, I think.

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#24909 - 02/18/04 09:16 PM Re: Creating more problems
Angry_youth_86_Keith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 103
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Yes and I do understand the feeling of being misunderstood which I still feel to this day. Really what my T was sayin and what I have put much thought into these last 2 days is that you can know something is a problem and accept what u want to change and not just wallow while u try to figure out a solution. I think he was more or less telling me about its ok to just accept what happend and let solutions come as they do and try to remain progressive in your life. He used a example, he has worked with police alot and in one case he had 2 officers who were fired apon by a criminal. they fired back both of them hitting and killing this man. One was very distruat and was just dwelling on the fact that he shot someone and how horrible he felt, while the other was very nervous and when asked why said that because he didn't feel bad, he siad well" I shot that man because he shot at me, thats my job, I dont like it but if I would have hestiated he would have killed me" He felt crappy because he thought he should feel bad. I think this example applies to ppl here *no dought I do not know all of u 100% but thats just my impressioN* also I never ment this post blaming others for bringing someone else down. I simply said that I do not like to see those ppl who are down alot be that way and I hoped to help them with something that has helped me. This doesn't mean I will stop coming here, I just will try to deal with/vent/discuss as I need to and come by to maybe help others as well.

_________________________
"Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity"- Greg Graffin

"Live fast, die young, leave a great looking corpse"-Ronny Van Zant

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#24910 - 02/18/04 09:24 PM Re: Creating more problems
dan_in_newengland Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 162
Loc: Mass
you got it keith !! keep it up


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#24911 - 02/18/04 09:39 PM Re: Creating more problems
uselesstheories Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 23
Loc: USA
I think Keith raises a valid point; as I've said, I've only recently begun the journey that many of you have been on for years, the actual acknowledgement of the abuse only consciously arriving a few months ago.

survive75 perhaps said it best, as my own personal summation as well: "I have always been fucked up and never attributed it to my abuse until recently."

You see, that's EXACTLY how I feel. Yes it sucks - the whole thing - the why, the anger, the sense of undeservedness, et. al. but I do in fact take very much solace in finally unravelling this thirty plus year old trauma. It means that I have reasons for my actions - my resentments, my anger, my fears of intimacy, my tattered and horrid relationship with my mother and most women I've ever been near. No, it does not excuse my behaviour in regards to others, but so damned many other doors and avenues keep presenting themselves, now that I can understand WHERE these emotions emanate from.

Yes Keith, that is in fact the bright side; we can at least acknowledge these things now, identify them for what they are, and most importantly, I think, is this: when these things happened to us, we were powerless, not in control. Now we can be, so it's not only our right, but our duty, to make our lives what we want and need them to be. If we don't, our perps are still in control.

_________________________
Life is pain your Highness; anyone who tells you differently is selling something.
- William Goldman

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#24912 - 02/18/04 09:47 PM Re: Creating more problems
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I cannot agree with Keith more than others.

I think that when someone is down we should do two things

1. Lend a shoulder of support and
2. Rather than tell him what to do we should relate what worked for us in a similar instance with the same sort of shit. As an example I have used a teddy bear as my demon slayer and nightmare killer. I have take an baseball bat to a tree for anger. I think that would raise the bar for all of us. We all have done some stuff that worked for us. Lets share it.

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#24913 - 02/18/04 11:28 PM Re: Creating more problems
Angry_youth_86_Keith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 103
Loc: Olympia, Washington
yes, I was only sayin that dwelling is bad. having other ppl to help/give support is good in my mind. I was merely suggesting that we try to not focus on the bad AS MUCH, we can't forget about it because thats not healthy but we can't keep it on top of our minds 24/7 either because that is even more harmfull.

_________________________
"Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity"- Greg Graffin

"Live fast, die young, leave a great looking corpse"-Ronny Van Zant

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#24914 - 02/19/04 06:23 AM Re: Creating more problems
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
I am not sure of what the 'dwelling' is. I know that within myself, I do not 'choose' to be down or low, like I am right now. I think there are times when our minds take us where we don't want to go. Sometime I feel more control to not go there then others. But quite often I have little or no control of my brain, or even of whether I am to be 'myself' or not. I suppose it is true, that sometime we create more problems for ourselves. But I don't think that is for another person to decide or judge. It is within ourselves only.

Leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#24915 - 02/19/04 11:38 AM Re: Creating more problems
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
I'm glad that Keith has written what he has. I for one benefit by being reminded that acceptance of my past is a goal that I am working toward.

My T is very clear, whenever I start getting hung up on what happened to me, about just not going there. She has compassion but also clearly communicates (sometimes by saying nothing much at all) that it is the present that can be changed.

We are presently sort of restructuring or recreating my childhood through me practicing listening to my child-part. I've always hated that kid for being a victim. Its is astounding to now start, as a postive thinking adult, treating him well.

I can get defensive about this stuff. Every guy here is at a different place. The effects of our wounds are similar but not exactly alike and everybody heals at a different rate.

I like your energy, Keith. I can understand your impatience with the rate of healing, too. I've felt it myself in regards to myself.

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#24916 - 02/19/04 01:44 PM Re: Creating more problems
FlyWM Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 322
Loc: Michigan
THis is rather interesting, do we defeat ourselves by concentrating on the bad? I believe it is possible, but for myself I know I try not to dwell on the bad, but I still feel depressed and down, I think it all depends on the person. I think it is possible, but I believe many people would be depressed whether they dwell on it or not, as I am.

scott

_________________________
Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in the world they've been given than to explore the power they have to change it. Impossible in not a declaration, it's a dare.

--Adidas

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#24917 - 02/19/04 04:35 PM Re: Creating more problems
Angry_youth_86_Keith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 103
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Leo, I was not judging anyone, merely saying something that has helped me and how I felt about a certain issue. The things I describd does not mean someone would be totaly better, I still become unhappy at times but its about trying to figure it out little by little and dealing with things, finding someone *like a T* who can give you educated respones to how you feel and if you agree with them to try that out. I think anyone who is becoming offended really misread my posts. I know some of the ppl here had much longer spread abuse then I did with differnt isues then I have. I also know that I told my parents about my abuse due to the fact tht I was a early talker and my perp thought at 2 I wouldn't have the state of mind to think anyhting of it, he never told me not to tell. I was in counseling for 6 years after that, and even with counseling I was acting out daily with random kids near where I lived untill i was 11, so I am not saying I have some types of magical answer, just somthign I hope to help me/others be less down and out at times because I think I speak for the sane world when I say being deprssed and down is not fun. No one judged you or will in the future and I am actually offended that u either didn't read waht I said but felt the need to post or somehow took it 180 degrees from how I ment it. I dont post most,so when I do I try to make it about things I mean and take seriously. Maybe what u said sounded to ME like a judgement of how I felt about it? w/e I guess u can't try to help ppl untill they want it, but I dont like being told im judging someone when I was only tryin to help, and at least 1 person said it helped them so I felt good that I posted it.

SINCE I GET THE IMPRESSION SOME OF YOU PPL DONT EVEN READ IT HERES BIG LETTERS TO GET UR ATTENTION!,

I DID !NOT! SAY OR EVEN HINT AT ANYONE JUST "GETTING OVER IT " OR FORGETTING ABOUT IT ! I AM ONLY SAYING TO ACCEPT PROBLEMS WITH A HEALTHY WAY TO START WORKING ON THEM AND REMAIN PROGRESSIVE IN YOUR HEALING!

_________________________
"Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity"- Greg Graffin

"Live fast, die young, leave a great looking corpse"-Ronny Van Zant

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#24918 - 02/19/04 06:55 PM Re: Creating more problems
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
I did not mean to offend, but re-reading your original post, it is still confusing to me. And you being rude is not at all helping the confusion. I have read most posts that you have made, and have been rather put off or offended by many of them. It is obvious that there is something in how you phrase things that I do not understand properly. Perhaps it is the language barrier, although I am mostly good with English now. I will not respond to you if you wish, and I believe I would prefer you not respond to me at all.

Leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#24919 - 02/19/04 07:41 PM Re: Creating more problems
survive75 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/27/03
Posts: 304
Loc: Massachusetts
Keith... I, for one, did not think you were judging. I don't think that anyone thought you were, even if it may have seemed that way in some of the posts.

I think your original post made people think about how they think about and respond to their issues, and that is what most of the posts here in response are exploring.

I was not suggesting you were saying that I should get over it. In my reply, I was exploring some of my issues/memories about fixating on the bad. Some of those memories included people saying that I should just get over it. These kinds of messages, as Brayton also pointed out, are often what leads us to respond to our situations in the way that we do... at first, going along with what we are told (i.e. I denied the abuse and its effects on me for years) and then over-indulging in them (i.e. now that I have the memories to work with, I want to explore them and focus on them, sometimes incessantly.)

And I do get what you are talking about. You are saying that sometimes, just because you think you need to be upset about something, you force yourself to dwell on it, rather than just accept it and your response to it. Your second post about the police officers made your point clear as well.

It's unfortunate that there seems to be misunderstanding here, because I think your point was important and everyone's responses were important. This forum is for the exploration of ideas about recovery. Please don't allow this thread to become a sounding board for anger over misunderstandings of what was being said in the various posts.

-Sean

_________________________
-Sean

"Even though I know/I donít want to know/Yeah I guess I know/I just hate how it sounds"

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#24920 - 02/19/04 08:46 PM Re: Creating more problems
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
This is interesting, and has made me think of how I used to be when I was a victim.

Back then 'everything' I did turned to shit, and I blamed everyone else for that.
With hindsight, that wonderful gift we all have, I can see how it worked. My explanation might be a bit shakey - but here goes.

What I feel that I was doing back then was acting the victim. I didn't 'know' I was a victim because I hadn't got that far by then. I remembered that as a kid at school I'd had sex with older boys and a teacher. I didn't like the fact that it had happened or that I used the memories as fantasies. What had happened was just a bunch of memories.

So my dysfunctional behaviours that were almost certainly caused by the 'sex' had ne reason to them at all. I just thought that I was a "useless bastard" who did nothing right, but I still blamed everyone else for "my" faults

Now I can see how that worked. My behaviour / thinking WAS the result of the 'abuse' ( as I know it was now )

But, and this is a big "but" that I also see with hindsight; there were many things that I can honestly say WEREN'T attributable to the abuse alone.
There are many factors that make us like we are, our parents, friends, teachers, the tv we watched, the era we grew up in , the town and country we lived in - they all affect us deeply. And many of those things would have affected us anyway WITHOUT the abuse happening.

So it's easy to lay everthing 'wrong' at the table of the abuse, and it does us a disservice to do so. We have to be honest and accountable to ourselves for the other influences and how we reacted to them, because they were there - they affected us. But for different reasons.

It's very tempting to drag all our problems together and try to deal with them under the "abuse" label, it's the easy way out I'm sure of it.

I make a concious effort now to seperate all my many issues and problems, and not allow one to interfere with another. Ok, it's not always a success and some issues do overlap for sure. But the more I separate the easier it is to deal with them.

I think that it's playing the "victim role" to just say "everything's the abusers fault"
Survivors have to accept that "we" made some shit choices at times, and I know I still do.
I also know I made a lot of shit choices as a boy and young man, and many of them were "my" choices.

Dragging everything into one pile of shit made me depressed and dysfunctional for many years, I'm sure of that.
Earlier tonight I dealt with some other stuff, now I'm here dealing with "abuse" stuff and I cope with both. This might not be everyones answere for sure, but it seems to work for me.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#24921 - 02/19/04 09:03 PM Re: Creating more problems
Angry_youth_86_Keith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 103
Loc: Olympia, Washington
I can see some ppl took my point exactly how it was ment and then some. I got some things I hadn't thought about out of some ppl's responses. But in conclusion I am done coming here for a while if I can not point out the obvious with out some ppl who are so deep into EXACTLY! what I stated flaming me. Now my 17 year old sides wants to flip this person a big f u, but hey im gonna just stop coming for a while to avoid any more BS, and make no mistake some ppl's response to this truthfull post and some great responses by others is poluted with some's BS! since I am asked to not address certain persons I will say this generaly Wallow in pitty all u want, I did it for a while and almost killed me self, was a total a hole to ppl and did alot of drugs every day, got F's in school, alienated all my friends, got my family to the point of not knowing what to do with me and I can see in some others here what woulda happend if I would have stated on this road. My posts are NOT rude, u just dont like them and that is somethign u can only look one place to find whos the blame, and that place is a mirror. If some ppl feel put off by my posts it is only because *some of the time* u dont like the truth, needless to say I am not right all the time but I have worked hard here to post honesty and ONLY honesty so I could look through my posts except for a fight i had with Andrew about the chat room issue and say that is how i honestly felt at the time every other post except that thread. I often wonder how long it will be before people 100% and truly realize that only 1 preson can fix u, even if why ur hurting isn't ur fault guess what life sux get a helmet U HAVE TO FIX IT. I also know its not easy,fast or fun. So say that im rude all you want but when u realize that I am in large part right that finding strengh in your self is the only way to really get through this because other ppl can say everything and anything but ur mind and ur souland body have to decide to make the change other ppl can not do that. there is no surgery to fix abuse. Some ppl come out of beings abused stronger and experienced in some really tough lessons in my mind, and some seem to stay as loydy *spelling* put it as what I call a "victim".

_________________________
"Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity"- Greg Graffin

"Live fast, die young, leave a great looking corpse"-Ronny Van Zant

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#24922 - 02/20/04 01:27 AM Re: Creating more problems
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
Keith,

I gotta remember this shit in order to get through it. It is not a fucking joke that you can "just get over". For 27 years my life has been controlled by this shit I am "just supposed to forget and move on". Shouldn't I know what I am getting on from? Shouldn't the fucking flashbacks stop. Shouldn't I know what happened them four months I knew nothing of?

Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#24923 - 02/20/04 02:27 AM Re: Creating more problems
Angry_youth_86_Keith Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 103
Loc: Olympia, Washington
*bangs head on wall* right now I dont think i can saay much more then that.

_________________________
"Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity"- Greg Graffin

"Live fast, die young, leave a great looking corpse"-Ronny Van Zant

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