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#24760 - 11/30/02 06:07 AM Re: need advice *trigger?*
arghilles Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/02
Posts: 45
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Hi again!

I agree with Wuame. I have been abused over a long period of time, on a daily basis, been owned and it affects me today, but it is no excuse. It is a fact and i am working on finding new paths in my life, cause i won't let it rule me anymore.

I also acted out sexually as a small boy. It instantly followed the actions. I became addicted, i had to take control somehow, control against my father.
I began to transfer the image I had of my father as a tyrant and perp onto other men, all men in the end. I thought that if they hurt me I could handle them, cause I knew what to do with them to please them. Then in my mind I reckoned they would get less fearsome.

Today I rediscover the person beneath the controlsystem.
I am very afraid of men and it is going to take time for me to trust them enough.
Enough so I won't have to handle them.
The person I discover amazes me. He is just like any other guy.
He is very young emotionally and mentally.

I didn't have a choice. What was my choice? As a small child I knew nothing, I was innocent.

As long as I lived at home the abusive situations went on. I grew up believing I was someone who I wasn't meant to be had I been left alone.

Today I have a choice. I can choose to work on my issues and move away from my old system or stay in it.

I was numbed emotionally and mentally. My father did this to me. Fear and repressed anger numbed me. In that state it was not possible to make any sensible decisions.
I think we have to be very gentle on ourselves.

Blame? Do I blame myself.No.
I can blame myself for other things, not taking responsibility enough in my life today at work or with my own closest family ( wife, child) and I have flaws in my personality which have nothing to do with the fact that I was abused.

But all the blame for the abuse and what came out of it is his. I am through with blaming myself for that. I have been feeling dirty and guilty and shameful for so long. I shouldn't have felt that at all.

/ Erik

_________________________
Erik

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#24761 - 11/30/02 02:58 PM Re: need advice *trigger?*
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Damn right brother! You are not your abuse, and you are not your abuser! WTG Erik!

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#24762 - 11/30/02 08:07 PM Re: need advice *trigger?*
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Zadoc

let me quote this back at you
Quote:
I let my strong wife walk all over me, not that she knows she is doing it. How could she? I never tell her what I want or need. Instead I go with the flow, and then allow resentment and anger to build up inside. I hate myself for being weak, and it keeps coming out in unhealthy ways such as addiction and closing myself off from the world.
I thought that way for over 25 years, I disclosed to my wife just before our 25th anniversary - some present eh ?
But, that's exactly what I thought, and Devon describes his wife as a "control freak", now I don't know your wives guys, but the feeling I get is one I remember.

Maybe they aren't the strong, controlling people you imagine ?
And I say this with all respect to you, maybe it's your view of them that makes them seem that way ?
We have severly distorted views due to our backgrounds, our self esteem has been shattered.
Maybe it's us believing we are downtrodden ?

As I have gone through recovery I have begun to see that the woman who has earned twice my salary, had a career, coped with everything thrown at her, run my life for me - she is actually my equal.

I have discovered that although she has changed some during this time, we can talk on the same intellectual level, I can make choices without her disagreing with me. I can now make my own mind up about things.

This didn't happen before, and I thought she was the 'boss' - but she's not, I was just being subservient ecause that's the way my abusers made me.

Just a thought guys.

Lloydy

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#24763 - 12/01/02 05:27 AM Re: need advice *trigger?*
arghilles Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/02
Posts: 45
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Lloydy,

I agree with you.
I too have come to believe that my wife deliberately used me for her benefits.
But the clearer I can see things the more it becomes obvious that this is not the case.

However, I don't find it implausible that dominant women, who actually are very insecure themselves and to compensate for this need to demonstrate power in a relationship, could be attracted to subservient men. We cannot rule this out.
That is my opinion.

/Erik

_________________________
Erik

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#24764 - 12/01/02 06:05 AM Re: need advice *trigger?*
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
Lloydy makes an interesting point. My abusers taught me to be subserviant too, and that was where I felt the comfort of a familiar environment.

Before I was married I have had what my therapist calls "emotional affairs" with other women over the years who did not make me feel subserviant. As a matter of fact, it seems that they wanted to be subserviant to me. But somehow I just couldn't take those relationships to the next level. I dont know why, but I would just run away from them with the idea that this way they wouldn't hurt me and although running away hurt, I was in control of how and when it hurt. I figured if they knew me they wouldn't love me any more. That it was only a matter of time. I think I needed them to treat me abusively and then still seem interested in me, but they never did treat me badly, so I never felt confident they liked the real me. I concluded that they never knew me and thats why they never treated me that way and continued to like me.

When my wife treated me with disrespect and seemed to be angry at me all the time, told me all the things that were wrong with me and made me feel like no one in thier right mind would tolerate me, I felt like, yeah thats me, she knows me, thats who I am, now I feel comfortable. But at the same time she stayed with me, so I felt like: she knows me and she stays, and no one else would.

I could never take a risk with the other girls who "didn't know what was wrong with me" because I knew if I did and it didnt work out, I would loose the only normal respectful "relationships" I had ever had. One girl in particular told me that she loved me, and more important than that she made me feel that way every day for 18 months, but I just wasn't willing to risk trading that in for a real relationship. If she ceased to love me than no one would love me. At least this way I knew that somewhere out there someone loved me, even though I might never see her again.

I worked really hard on myself and my career, thinking foolishly that if I ever felt good about myself I would track her down and take that chance. Once I did feel that I was good enough for her I was able to start looking at my life and my past, and thats when I remembered my neighbor filming me and had my breakdown.

Lloydy makes an interesting point. I also often see people who are not controling abusers as being my abusive superiors, and maybe some of our wives fit into that catagory. I dont think this is true of my wife though. She really does walk all over me. Every one of my friends and family has said that to me. They all say "why do you let her treat you that way?", "why do you take that from her?" Only now can I see that that is not what I really deserve.

I'm getting to the point that whe she tries to control me with anger and guilt (which is what all abusers do), I just laugh and tell her her stupid games aren't going to work on me.

I want to talk about wives more. I'm kind of reluctant though because I rarely get any feedback when I post or respond to a post.


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#24765 - 12/01/02 11:18 AM Re: need advice *trigger?*
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Men, I agree that Lloydy has a very good point that gives me alot to think about. My wife is by no means a dominant type, but she does have ways in certain areas that I have come to sometimes see as controlling, especially since my abuse memories came back. Before that I would rarely have thot of her as controlling. Quite the opposite. So in my case Lloydy is right on target.
What I sometimes see as my wife trying to control are really expressions of her fear & insecurity.

Les Angry, evidently yours is one of the cases Erik refers to in which a dominant woman was attracted to a subservient man, and maybe vice versa; for as you said, you've felt this is what you deserve.

I'm glad you don't feel that way anymore, becuz you don't deserve it; nobody does. I hope you'll be able to work things out with your wife to have a mutual healing & healthy relationship based not on giving & receiving abuse, but on mutual love, trust & caring.

Let's keep talking about wives (or SO's), Les. It is a vital topic in some way to most if not all of us. We want to share mutually with our wives, not be doormats; that may have been a survival tool of necessity at one time, but its' sure not what we need now.

Take care

Wuame

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#24766 - 12/01/02 11:33 AM Re: need advice *trigger?*
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Men:

A rather humorous story I picked up on another forum that may apply to what we're talking about here, among other things:

"An old man, a boy and a donkey were going to town. the boy rode on the donkey and the old man walked.

They passed some people who remarked it was a shame the old man was walking and the boy was riding. The man and boy thot maybe the critics were right, so they changed positions.

Later, they passed some more people who remarked, what a shame, he makes that little boy walk. Then they decided they both would walk.

People passing by commented on what a waste this was that they both walked when they had such a fine beast of burden with them. So they both got on the mule.

Soon they passed some more people who shamed them by saying how awful to put such a load on a poor donkey, so they decided to carry the jackass.

As they crossed the bridge, they lost their grip on the ass and he fell into the river.

The moral of the story:

If you try to please everyone,

you might as well kiss your ass goodbye!

Wuame \:D

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#24767 - 12/01/02 03:25 PM Re: need advice *trigger?*
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Erik is absolutely right to say that some dominant people seek the subservient out and then excercise that dominance. And generally we - the abused - are subservient and make easy targets.

The problems when we start our recovery and regain our self esteem, suddenly we dont appreciate taking crap from others and start to react against it.
Possibly this is what Les is experiencing now, she's the same woman but he's changing ?

Luckily this didn't happen to me, my wife is a very strong person , but not domineering. And before I started recovery I was the origional "whatever" slacker. I didn't know how to voice my opinions, I didn't think anyone wanted to hear them let alone consider them. So I went with the flow.
Now I have my say and what happens between us is a joint affair, we discuss things at last.

She's still a strong woman, but I'm catching up I think.
We change drastically as we heal, we have to, healing is impossible without changeing our self esteem and self concept.

I have a very good handout from my counselling class about this 'self' stuff that I'll try and put here somewhere

Lloydy

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#24768 - 12/01/02 03:48 PM Re: need advice *trigger?*
Sleepy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 288
Loc: Arizona, USA
Lloydy,
I would love to read about that self stuff if you are able to post it.

These domineering people work themselves into every part of our lives. I don't have any experiences with a spouse but the few friends that I did associate myself with were these types. Only now I realize why I hung out with them. One female friend was one such type. We have a lot in common and she was there for me through out my most difficult times. But as I have been going through this emotional growth spurt I find that I can no longer be around her. I use to look to her for answers but now I realize that I have the ability to make decisions. Her presences is an emotional drain on me. I would like to say that we'll remain friends but only time will tell.

As I learn more about co-dependance everything becomes clearer. My emotionally repressed childhood and my sexual abuse made me an easy victom for this condition. It's becoming rewarding as I slowly take my life back and break away from this behavior.
later skaters,
mike

_________________________
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end."
--Ursula K. Le Guin

"Mental health is a commitment to reality at all times."
--M. Scott Peck

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#24769 - 12/01/02 08:31 PM Re: need advice *trigger?*
Spider-man Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/02
Posts: 57
Loc: NY
I don't know if this will help a little Zadok, but I think it is a piece on the way back to recovering and rebuilding a relationship with someone close in your life - like a wife.
The first thing my wife and I did (after fruitlessly batting our heads against emotional walls) was talk about how to talk to each other.
We had keywords that meant certain things in any conversation. The first one I came up with was 'jericho'. As in, the walls of jericho and the sound that brought them down. If I said jericho, we both walk away from the conversation immediately. Like a safe word.
Other keywords and phrases came later, but first we had to figure out how to talk to each other.
If you establish a set of rules to talk by - at least initially, maybe it will help. Talk to her about communication and how you can communicate with each other without triggering landmines. The important thing, I think, is maintaining open, clear and honest communication. The trick is doing it safely. If something is hard for you to talk about or say, say that and offer assurances before you say what you need to.

When I do this, occasionally my foot stays on the floor and out of my mouth.

Spidey


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