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#247294 - 08/29/08 05:15 PM What right does he have to hurt me like this?
ChristineTrying Offline


Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 36
Hi All,
I realize this topic may upset some people but I feel I have to at least speak it or I am going to totally explode within myself, destroying what last bit of love I have for the man in my life. Or should I say boy as that is what is seems like he is.

Why is it that pretty much anyone who has had CSA, physical abuse and/or drug abuse issues etc etc feels that it's ok to treat people they supposedly love and care about any old way they wish? Deliberately saying things that can hurt worse than a fist in the mouth? Can a person not make a choice of what they say? Of what action they are going to take?

I make a wonderful home free of conflict for my man but nothing I do is good enough. I know it never will be. So why am I hanging on? He doesn't abuse other people like this. So what right does he have to hurt me like this?


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#247295 - 08/29/08 05:28 PM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: ChristineTrying]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6867
Loc: USA
Crystine Trying (or is it Crying)

I'm not absolutely sure what you are talking about,but here's an answere to my best guess.

When a guy "remembers" his CAS (childhood sexual abuse), his whole concept of who he is changes drastically and irreversibly. Also his concept of who everybody else is changes.

It is not evil. He can't do anything about it except to grow out of it. This takes work and counseling. Yes he may hurt somebody in the process. He needs understanding and forgiveness. He probably has anger issues and more.

Some women are totally unable to have the patience to work with a guy undergoing this. There are a few who succeed.

Allen

Puffer


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#247324 - 08/29/08 08:24 PM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: pufferfish]
An Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 151
Loc: usa
Quote:


When a guy "remembers" his CAS (childhood sexual abuse), his whole concept of who he is changes drastically and irreversibly. Also his concept of who everybody else is changes.

It is not evil. He can't do anything about it except to grow out of it. This takes work and counseling. Yes he may hurt somebody in the process. He needs understanding and forgiveness. He probably has anger issues and more.


I am in total agreement with the helpful things puffer says here. I've also got to affirm the "righteousness" of Christine's question- No one has the right to be abusive of another even emotionally/verbally- it may be where he's caught right now and his transition to wholenss"", but she is not less loving for not finding it acceptable- abuse , verbal , emotional, whatever, is never justifiable. I always liked the way Mike Lew talked about partners choices- that the healthiest choice FOR BOTH PARTIES is for the partner to Take care of themselves , to set an example of self-care and self- love. There is no shame nor its it "lesser" to leave the relationship when it is not a fulfilling fair relationship- the men were children and weren't empowered to say no to maltreatment. As partners we're adults who can lovingly say no to accepting maltreatment-

I guess my desire here is to say that NEITHER party is evil or lesser- the survivor is just going through what he has to and the partner needs to do what he/she has to for their own wellness. I don't think the survivor wants to be destructive to his partner during his healing process either and a partner's setting limits and leaving if he can't abide by fair limits of behavior, isn't being a less loving or less caring/understanding. I don't think partners should become emotional martyrs, its hard enough to deal with the emotional voids but to then be attacked on top of it.... well it certainly takes it to the painand frustration level Christine is so justified in feeling and in saying, this isn't right! It's just not. The survivor has everyright to be angry, but it's misdirected and thus, very unfair to her.

Sometimes separation is the fairest way to go and that's difficult for partners as well, but not something to feel guilty about if necessary. Love to all!


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#247330 - 08/29/08 08:40 PM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: ChristineTrying]
king tut Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2466
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: ChristineTrying

Why is it that pretty much anyone who has had CSA, physical abuse and/or drug abuse issues etc etc feels that it's ok to treat people they supposedly love and care about any old way they wish?


I don't. It is likely he is still carrying emotional issues from his CSA, but that doesn't give him an excuse. Like in any relationship where CSA is not involved, if you need to bail, then bail. It is not up to you to put up with these things. If you think he can progress and you want to stick around, then see if he is willing to work it out, but you have to put the question to him, perhaps a marriage counsellor would be a good idea. This wouldn't just be about him working thing out in therapy but him working things out with you. Don't let him make excuses, let him know that you understand some of the issues that he has, but that it is not acceptable that he is letting them control him in this way and it is not acceptable for him to treat you in this way. There are never any excuses just understanding, but understanding can only go so far.

Originally Posted By: pufferfish

grow out of it


not the best choice of words, or maybe you think so, but your point is valid in that it is something to work on, just mentioning this christine because if you tell him to grow out of it you will probably get a very bad reaction, it is not something i would like to be told

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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#247336 - 08/29/08 08:57 PM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: An]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6867
Loc: USA
Yes, An,

But it's like this. I have seen documentaries on TV a bunch of times about how a guy comes back from war and his leg has been blown off.

Now he is going to have to undergo a time of convalescence and pain. He is going to require some help from others to make him a new artificial limb, and to teach him how to walk on it.

He is not able to fight the "war" at that point. He needs kindness and understanding. If he is angry because of those _ _ _ _ _ who blew his leg off, then we can't throw it back in his face and tell him to "get over it". We have to bear with him and encourage him until he gets back on his feet.

The same is true of a survivor of CSA. He is a needy guy. He needs the kindness and understanding. He needs to be encouraged. He needs counseling and training to help him learn to walk on that new artificial limb.

We don't shoot our survivors in war. Why should we shoot our survivors of CSA?

Allen

Puffer


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#247337 - 08/29/08 09:03 PM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: An]
ChristineTrying Offline


Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 36
Thank you, An.

I agree that CSA is different for males than females to a certain extent and that it can affect each differently. There's no doubt.

I myself was abused my whole childhood and while it wasn't sexual it was extreme emotional and physical at times. This totally left me with no self esteem, no self value, nothing. Well, as I grew up I did not allow those hurtful events from my childhood affect me negatively in my adulthood.

It isn't just the abuse from him being a CSA, other people I've known who were abusers of any sort (drug, alcohol, food, etc), had the same kind of attitude towards others: I'm here only for myself and I don't care who I'm going to step on along the way.

And just because someone suffered abuse at any time in their lives, that doesn't mean they have an automatic excuse to be horrible to others and when they are expect that a 'i'm sorry' will make it all better with the person they hurt.

I appreciate the responses so far and am encouraged in many ways as well as discouraged in many ways.


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#247338 - 08/29/08 09:06 PM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: king tut]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6867
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: king tut
Originally Posted By: pufferfish

grow out of it

not the best choice of words, . . . get a very bad reaction, it is not something i would like to be told


Hey Lewis, I have the highest respect for you and don't wish to start an argument. Thank you for helping me see how my words might be misunderstood.

No, I would never tell a guy to grow out of it. I would never tell you to grow out of it. I agree with you.

What I mean is that they guy cannot unlearn or to back to where he was before. The CSA he experienced cannot be exponged from reality. He can try to forget it but it will bounce back and bite him. He must become a bigger person (hence grow) to accomodate the pain and suffering he has experienced.

Yes, and of course he should try very hard not to hurt anybody else, especially the significant other.

Allen
Puffer



Edited by pufferfish (08/29/08 10:14 PM)

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#247340 - 08/29/08 09:12 PM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: pufferfish]
ChristineTrying Offline


Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 36
Pufferfish,

I agree he needs caring and kindness. Well, so do the other people involved in his life. It just seems to me that sometimes...and I understand this is going to get a LOT OF FLACK from people.... because someone suffers something, even like you said, losing a leg or arm or whatever in war, or being abused or any kind of challenge to their life, those of us around that person are expected to accept ANY type of behavior directed at us. We're expected to just 'be patient and understanding' and just 'let it go'.

I can't have a normal discussion with my man about anything but what he blows up at me. Maybe he is resenting me now because I had a relatively normal childhood (even with the physical and emotional abuse I suffered) and I seem to have no issues whatsoever. Maybe to him I'm perfect and something that he'll never achieve no matter what he does and because of that, he has to make me feel lower than dirt.

I don't know. I loved him. I feel sorry for him for his pain. I can't take it away from him. I can't make it better. I've stood by him during one of the roughest times in his life. And I can't even get a smile out of him. Only hurtful mean words and snotty attitude.

I'm not shooting him or disrespecting him or anything like that. When does one know whether to stay or whether to go? (No I'm not going to post the Clash here right now)


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#247343 - 08/29/08 10:03 PM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: ChristineTrying]
River Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 112
Loc: Nashville,Tennessee
What I have to remember is that I am solely responsible for my actions towards my wife and children. When I respond out of my brokenness towards them, it behooves me to own my stuff and begin the process of making it right. There is no amount of abuse from my past that makes treating the love of my life and children like crap. Even though I have had those moments in my life, unfortunately.

I take responsibility for getting professional help, including inpatient rehab for addiction and ongoing counseling (ten years worth). My wife has been through hell and back with me and has been inordinately patient with me and this process. She also owns "her stuff".. I will leave for her to define and support her as she continues to work through. She has told me that the only reason she has stayed is because I have worked so hard and have not given up. I don't believe this gig is for every spouse.

_________________________
GD

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#247344 - 08/29/08 10:09 PM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: pufferfish]
king tut Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 2466
Loc: UK
Oh no i didn't mean to offend or ridicule your choice of words (really i didn't mean it like that, but it definitely looks like i did, you probably wont believe me because it really does look like i was attacking you), but actually i do see that i shouldn't have quoted you in that way now sorry, i shouldn't have done that but i didn't intend it to look so bad i will think before i act in the future. I know how you meant it and you have clarified it even better, it was just a reaction i had to reading those words that struck me, i guess it is my own personal problem and that "why don't you just forget about it" thing that has been playing in my mind lately which it reminded me of and really nothing to do with your response, i just read it wrong. I pointed it out because i thought it needed mentioning at the time. It must have just been on my mind and the more i look at it the less i see it in your words- grrr i am angry at myself now- i can't even see it in your words now at all and i thought i was quite clear minded tonight but obviously not, damn, thanks for pointing that out it gives me quite a lot to think about actually. More and more i am realising how these things in my mind influence me even when i don't realise, the way i look at things, the way i read things, my confidence in doing things, but then that is an excuse and i don't mean to make excuses i should have been able to interpret it as you wrote it and i am sorry. God i wish i didn't keep realising these things, i will have to be more careful in future. Ok, enough of me hijacking this thread with this.

_________________________
"...until lambs become lions"

I love you, little lewis, and i will never leave you. We are the same. You brighten my day, and i will make sure that i brighten yours. Hugs and kisses.


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#247349 - 08/29/08 10:19 PM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: king tut]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6867
Loc: USA
Lewis

You are just fine. No harm done.

You helped me learn and I appreciate it.

I do respect you very much

Allen

puffer


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#247353 - 08/29/08 10:47 PM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: ChristineTrying]
dgoods Offline
Guest

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
CT,
It seems to me as if you have already made your choice, and are looking for both some sort of explanation that makes his behavior make sense, but that also can give you that final nudge to say goodbye without feeling as though you gave up or abandoned him; as a survivor of not only CSA but physical and emotional abuse myself, i know how easy it can be to get into relationships where one somehow ends up playing out some of the same dynamics we dealt with when we were younger.

I used to ask myself, "Why did most of my girlfriends turn out to have histories of abuse?" Survivors seem to pick up on subtle cues and those cues seem to draw us toward each other- certain perspectives on life that non-survivors don't share. Unfortunately, many times we often end up bringing out the worst in each other over the long run, and the relationship ends very messily, with a lot of old wounds re-opened on both sides, despite the best intentions.

Switching from people-pleasing to resentment and back again, feeling like you always sacrifice your needs for those of your partner, feeling ashamed of investing so much of yourself with apparently no or negative returns, suspecting the other of having ulterior motives for their words, behavior, or even for the relationship itself... all this and much more can be swirling around the heads of either or both people involved. This can build, and what was once a possible haven of mutual understanding becomes a fierce and ugly battleground.

Remember that men generally have a much stronger natural inclination toward personal and social privacy, and combined with CSA, this can make for a much harder struggle for communication with ourselves as well as others.

There is nothing wrong with protecting yourself first; there is no need for you to give your left arm, before you can permit yourself to say, "I gave the relationship my all, and it just isn't going to work"- nobody's waiting in the wings to point at you and cry, "FAILURE!"

Again, it sounds to me as if this relationship's already over; let yourself off the hook- if his behavior is truly regressive and negative, and you're feeling more and more resentment, frustration, and pain, then you'd undoubtedly both be far better off disentangling from each other, instead of mutually reinforcing negative conclusions about love, trust, and boundaries.

I'm not trying to pretend i'm an expert on your situation or relationships in general, i'm just being honest about my impressions, and expressing where my own experiences have taken me; i hope you're not offended, and i wish both of you the best of luck in your lives.

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

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#247640 - 08/31/08 11:43 PM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: ChristineTrying]
mollyr Offline
New Here

Registered: 11/01/07
Posts: 5
Do you mind if I ask how long you've been together and when you/he first found out/remembered the CSA?


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#247694 - 09/01/08 11:01 AM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: mollyr]
ChristineTrying Offline


Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 36
We've been together for three years and I always knew there was something different about him. He told me about the abuse about a year ago and although I did not change my attitude towards him at all, it's been a downward spiral ever since. He's never forgotten the abuse so it's not like it's anything new for him.




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#247695 - 09/01/08 11:10 AM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: dgoods]
ChristineTrying Offline


Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 36
Dgoods,

Thanks.
"Remember that men generally have a much stronger natural inclination toward personal and social privacy, and combined with CSA, this can make for a much harder struggle for communication with ourselves as well as others."

It's strange in a way...my man has no problem telling anyone and everyone everything. I am the one who is so private. I've had to keep things from him otherwise the whole world would know. That seems wrong to me that I can't share my life with someone without it being broadcast. He has no problem with communication but I do.

Thanks for all your thoughts. You are actually exactly right. Why is it people call the talk radio people for advice? To get the "permission" to do something. I already know what to do. Just need permission from other people so that I can say it's my life and not yours. HE lives his life for him, certainly not for ME.

I know the drugs and alcohol abuse also in the past has led to his actions of today (and the past). Those things are just horrible horrible crutches and have ruined so many lives. Why do people keep doing them???

Cheers.


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#247811 - 09/02/08 01:35 AM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: ChristineTrying]
dgoods Offline
Guest

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
You're welcome CT, and thanks- it's nice to know i actually have a decent insight once in a while ;-)

I understand about the "quiet one" side of things myself; when i attempted suicide at 14, my father (whom i wasn't even living with) seemed to think it was fine to broadcast my attempt and subsequent hospitalization to even casual friends of the family; there were a lot of awkward moments afterwards when people i barely knew were asking if i felt better, etc. I felt like he had taken something that had to do with me, and turned it into something more about how it affected him, never mind losing any choice over who knew what. "Gee, thanks Dad; now when certain people think of me, it'll be 'Oh yeah, him. Didn't he try to kill himself before?' Oh, my dating possibilities will surely expand incredibly now..."

As far as drugs/alcohol, they gripped me tight off and on for a good long while, even after knowing better, simply because of having the commandment in my head to "kill the pain at all costs"... also, unlike people, their immediate effect was completely predictable- if i drank, i'd always get drunk. If i smoked pot, i'd always get stoned. The consequences, of course, were completely unpredictable in the short-term, but absolutely negatively predictable in the long-term, which is why i don't mess with either any more... the high always wears off, and ends up adding more problems on top of what inspired the reality-vacations in the first place.

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

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#248079 - 09/03/08 08:39 PM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: ChristineTrying]
Supporter1 Offline


Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Canada
I'm so sorry for the confusion and pain you are experiencing. He has no "right" to hurt you. None of us has any "right" to cause pain to another. But there are mitigating circumstances here. I'm sure that others here have several recommendations for books and information that helps partners of CSA survivors glimpse what they are going through. Unfortunately, not a lot is written for the male survivor and the significant others in his life.

One that absolutely helped me to understand reactions, rage, lashing out, and other behaviours was Mike Lew's "Victims No Longer." There is even a chapter written specifically for partners, friends, and family of CSA survivors.

I know it is trying in the extreme, but sometimes perfectionism (unreasonable expectations of self or others to be perfect) is another torment that CSA survivors must endure. I urge you to read that book (or even just that chapter), from what you've written, it may ease your mind and provide some answers.

Kindly offered with sincere hopes that it might help,

S1


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#248117 - 09/04/08 03:51 AM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: Supporter1]
ChristineTrying Offline


Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 36
HI S1,

Thanks for your thoughts. I don't want anyone to think I haven't tried, or that I don't have support for him or any of you, or empathy of what everyone is going/gone through.

I have taken care of other people all my life. My family I couldn't just leave. But it's like how much does one have to endure before calling it quits?

I've read the books, studied up on the topics. I keep coming back to the same issue...in order for someone to be totally supportive of someone else with the challenges of any kind of abuse issues or things like that, one really has to give up their lives and wants/dreams/needs for that person who needs help.

We all deserve a normal happy life. ALL of us. I want to reach out, to help, to understand, to empathise with all abused or lost people. But there does come a time when one must say enough is enough. I've done all I can. I want to be happy and live a life that is easy. Taking care of and supporting others is NOT the easy road of life. It's the most difficult, racked with pain, sad and depressing roads you can take. Life doesn't have to be, nor should it be, this hard.

I don't mean to make anyone on here mad or upset with me and i think many of you understand completely what I'm saying.


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#248120 - 09/04/08 06:47 AM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: ChristineTrying]
Rachael Offline
New Here

Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 11
Loc: Qld Australia
Yes CT I understand completly. Read my post called Reeling...
There does come a time when the abused one has to be accountable. Has to take responsibility. My now ex partner has used every excuse in the book to blame others for his behaviour. In the end he found a way to blame me and we are now 1 day in to being no more.

I did all I could to learn how to be there for him. I read the books, he got 3 pages in to 'victims no longer' and freaked out at how textbook he was...NOOOO his abuse was so much worse than anyone elses. I found this site and was thrilled when he made his first post..but no someone replied and mentioned the word GAY and he freaked out even more and went on a rampage about how the men here wallow in their abuse histories and he was sooo much better than them.

Before we had met almost 2 years ago I had never come in to contact with a male abuse survivor, now I feel I am an expert on the subject but I know one thing with absolute sureity, if I ever meet another man and he happens to have been abused, I am going to run a mile. The lies, the denials, the blame game, and yes even the abuse and bruises he put on me, have left me almost with no sense of me.

The person I was before we met has gone, I feel so much older and sadder and abused myself. I see all these new women asking for advise and help dealing with being a partner of a CSA survivor and right now the only advise I feel I could give them is to get out now...run. Get out before they drag you down in to their dark twisted world and YOUR sunlight fades.

Oh god yes I understand completely.

edit..I wanted to add that my partner was also addicted to pot, an incredible amount of codeine painkillers(I will be finding empty pill packets in all his hiding(from who?) places for a long time to come), sleeping pills, overeating food that he knew would cause incredible agony to his digestive system as it was missing a few pieces due to a skiing 'accident', porn and sex.



Edited by Rachael (09/04/08 07:06 AM)

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#248124 - 09/04/08 09:25 AM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: Rachael]
Supporter1 Offline


Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Canada
Hi Christine,

I don't believe for a minute that you did not try your very very best. And you are honest in your pain. You are absolutely right when you say there are times when "enough is enough".

I for one am not mad or upset at anything you said. \:\) It's being honest and letting out the grief and anger and hurt. You must feel exhausted and bruised right now. But we're here to listen (or "read" in this case). Let it all out, girl! \:\)

S1


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#248295 - 09/05/08 04:14 PM Re: What right does he have to hurt me like this? [Re: Rachael]
ChristineTrying Offline


Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 36
Mirror image almost.

I am being abused and unfortunately the only way I can react to it is to withdraw myself.

Yep I love him and I like him too but there has to be someone out there who can love him more than me. Whether it's another woman or a man. That's part of the thing too. Although he says he likes women, he doesn't want to hang around any.

Anyway, thanks for all your responses. Now I just wait til the right time.


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