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#24512 - 10/18/03 09:57 AM need advice
danny2 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1
Loc: Montreal
that's my first time here, and i was looking for a room to newbies but i couldnt find it, so please if i am posting this in the wrong forum just let me know. i have been reading the posts from some time and have spent some time on the chat room which has helpd me a lot.

i was abused by my father but i was not exactly a child, i was 16... it went till i left my house to college, almost 2 years... even worse, in one of my visits to my parents when i was 20, my father called me to the basement again and he did everything he wanted with me. i'm having a hard time trying to understand why i allowed him to do that to me, he's very small and fragile and i was taller and stronger than him. physycally he could not force me, in fact he never did, he always "asked" me to to go the basement, stay in the position and i did... he never even yelled at me.

he's a very respectable person in our community, he's a rabi and everybody likes him a lot. he helps a lot of people and he seems very nice, i dont know why he did that to me, maybe something i did that caused him to behave like that? i really dont know... i was a 'mistake' in my family, my brother was 20 and my sister was 18 when i was born... we never got along, they are complete stranges to me. they live abroad. my mom is very quiet, and she never said a word about it, but i know she knows. she always tells everybody how lucky she is for having such a great husband. i just hear it quietly.

a couple of months ago i stopped having sex with my wife, i just couldnt stand her touch. that put a lot of pressure in our marriage. she wants to have a baby. also she's very attached to my parents, she loves them very much. i could not tell her anything. but last week i did. i told her i was abused when i was a child, i didnt tell her how old i was and not a world about my father. she was devasted and then looked for my parents to support her! my father talked to her and they wanted me to talk to him because hes a rabi, a counselor and he "loves me". i didnt.

then after some time i've told her about him. she didnt believe me. she doesnt think its possible that such a great man, so loving to her and everybody else could do such a thing to his own son. and she moved to their house! i'm lost, i'm feeling like i did a big mistake telling her about it. i love her very much and i know she loves me too. shes very confused. when she told them about my abuse my father had a "heart attack" and now hes sick. the whole family hates me. shes feeling guilty because she has told him. i miss her so much.

i've talked about that on chat room and i had some good advices. i asked her to go to my t with me next monday. he asked her to not go, but she called me last might and told me she is going. maybe my t can help us? there are so many things i havent said to her. i had erections and orgasms during the abuse... i kissed him in the mouth... i had oral sex with him... she cannot know that, i feel so dirty and ashamed of myself. i was not an innocent little kid, i knew what i was doing was wrong, i should have said no. i never did.

i'm so terrified of my next t. its my only chance to get her back. shes very hurt and confused. i know how much she loves them. i dont know what else i can do. i wish i hadnt said anything in the first place. what should i do? and please, dont tell me that if she does not come back its because she doesnt care about me so its gonna be better for me, it doesnt work that way. i love her.

_________________________
Danny

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#24513 - 10/18/03 11:39 AM Re: need advice
crisispoint Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 2154
Loc: Massachusetts
Danny,

Hi, We spoke p2p last night, and I just wanted to welcome you again to the site.

Having a better picture of your situation helps. No wonder you feel so alone and confused! That your own father did this to you and has elicited all of the support must be painful. It certainly is unconscionable!

I told you a little bit about my situation. It paralells (sp?) yours a little bit. My abuser was not my father, although it may have well been. My father and I didn't get along even at 11. He's a '50s generation man. Boys have to be rugged. I was anything but! So needing love and affection, I turned to a guidance counselor at our school (I was seeing him anyway. I was a little bit of a neurotic kid. Surprised?). Long story short, he initiated the abuse, which started small, but worked its way up to everything imaginable, including sadism, rape and attempted murder.

I understand how you feel. I got aroused too. I kept going back even though it was wrong. I got aroused even when he was trying to murder me (I tell the whole thing in the SUrvivor Stories board. Please do NOT read it until you're ready! It contains possible triggers for flashbacks!).

Danny, the fact that you physically responded to the abuse does NOT mean it's your fault. The fact that you "let" him abuse you does NOT mean it's your fault. He was your father. He was a rabbi. He was a respected member of your community. he was SUPPOSED to love you and protect you. He did neither. HE'S the freak, not you. NEVER YOU!

As you can see, I have a lot of strong opinions about this. I went through the same thing you did. "WHy did I go back?" "Why didn't I tell anyone?" You were a confused, scared boy. You "father," this "holy man," used that. You have to tell yourself every day, "this was not my fault. He was the adult. He was my parent. He was wrong." Someday, you'll believe it.

You have a good e-friend in Dan. I'd like to be one as well. I tend to have a strong personality (i.e. I like to blab!...:-)), but I know, KNOW, what you're going through. You need to talk this out. Your therapist is a good place to start.

As for your wife, well, I cannot say anything about that. I wish she had believed you instead of him. In time, she will see this. I have faith in the basic goodness of people. She sounds like a good, if easily misled, person, and once she has a chance to think things through, she will understand. But you have to be focused on getting better for YOU. YOU ALONE! No one else!

Please keep coming here and posting. ANd talk! Talk to anyone who'll listen. Talk to anyone who'll believe you. All of us here believe you. We know. Talk.

I've gone on WAY too long, but I care about you Danny and I want you well. I already can tell you're a good person with a lot to say. I'd like to hear what you have to say, so please feel free to tell it when you're ready.

My therapist and this site saved my life. They can save yours too.

Please feel free to PM me if you need anything. Or chat with Dan. Just talk.

I love you my brother and welcome. I like you Danny. You're a great man!

Peace,

Scot \:\)

_________________________
There are reasons I'm taking medication. They're called "other people." - Me, displaying my anti-social tendancies

fromacuriousmind.blogspot.com
malehurtandsurvive.blogspot.com

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#24514 - 10/18/03 12:42 PM Re: need advice
Andrew Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/25/03
Posts: 1192
Danny, this whole situation is appalling. Stick close to your therapist. Peace, Andrew

_________________________
there is no courage without anxiety

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#24515 - 10/18/03 12:46 PM Re: need advice
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Hello Danny,

It is certainly sad that you had such an awful, confusing experience as a teenager. You were at a time when you were experiencing your sexuality, trying to understand it and appreciate your body. The fact your father betrayed and violated you is going to take time and energy to move beyond to a peaceful and joyful life.

Danny, the best explanation I heard about our responding sexually is an experience we have probably all had. Have you ever been drinking a cold drink on a really hot day when you were very thirsty. You drink it too fast and your throat and chest can feel real pain. We don't will the pain. In fact, it can be bad enough at times to kind of scare me. But it happens and we can't control it.

It is that way with the sexual abuse. It does feel good to kiss. It does feel good to have physical contact. A penis rubbing against the prostate does cause erections. Not much we can do about any of that. Your reactions, I should say OUR reactions are things we really cannot control. So, all that stuff means is that you are a normal person.

Your wife may take some time to understand, and even believe, that her father-in-law could do that to you. But, in time she will come to believe, and eventually to understand your reactions. She has had several truly stunning events in the past coule of weeks. You withdrew sexually and that could make her wonder whether she is attractive to you. Then she finds that the man she loves was sexually abused. That really hurts the people who love us. Then, she finds that the person who harmed you is your father, for whom she has both love and respect.

Ideally, your father would own up to his behavior, apologize to you and seek help for himself. There is little that is ideal in life.

It sounds as though you have some friends here now. They will stick with you. You can learn a lot from the various posters here and also from the many papers we have for survivors and famlies to read.

There are many reasons why we go back to our abusers. Somewhere on this site there is a whole list of them. I will look it up and give you a link. Dave, our administrator said one of the wisest things I think I have heard. He said that sometimes we do not tell because we do not know who the people we tell will believe. I suspect, that from the response you have had just recently, you can see that you probably would not have been believed when it was happening.

Stick around and post what you need. I will try to look up the stuff about why we went back.

Take care Danny,

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#24516 - 10/18/03 04:47 PM Re: need advice
Jay M Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 6
Loc: CA
we keep goin back for a lot of reasons
- to get affection
- to get approval
- to be accepted
- cus they tot us to obey
- even to receive pleasure
- n my #1 reason: cus its easier to do it n get it over then it is to fight it

cus if we dont
- than they wont love us no more
- fear of punishment
- we will be outcast
- no body will believe us
- fear of the unknown of what will happen

i did it n made myself enjoy it n even got good at it cus if i didnt then it wud be rape n it wud hurt way worse. than i wud have to do some thing about it n i wasnt ready n didnt know how to stop it.


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#24517 - 10/18/03 05:03 PM Re: need advice
Jay M Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 6
Loc: CA
wait i screwed that up. i didnt mean that if u enjoyed it it wasnt rape its still abuse >>no matter what<< i just mean that for me it was easier to do it n get it over with then it was to do any thing else about it.


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#24518 - 10/18/03 08:57 PM Re: need advice
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1117
danny,
abuse is tragic no matter when or where it happens. add to that another tragedy of your wife being confused and misled by the perpetrator and the entire scenario can spin way out of control. there have been some excelent statements here about the entire experience you are going through. i want to add my nickel and say that i agree with the responses, it was not your fault. i had a similar experience in one respect in that i trusted a male family member of mine to do the right thing by his children who were in danger by there biological mother. i was an adolescent and knew what was happening but i kept wanting to believe this man would do the right thing. he never did and five precious children suffered irreversible brain damage from the abuse their mother inflicted on them before the authorities took them away. to this day i still struggle with the fact that i knew but did nothing simply because i wanted to believe in a man i knew from my childhood and was taught to never betray family. danny, when it comes to our family, survivors are taught above all else to never speak out or turn away from them. yes, you were an adolescent when the direct abuse started that you remember, but there was a lifetime of learning and no tools to help a young man respond in any other way then was done. in my past, five children suffered horribly, not because of my inaction, no matter what i feel about it, but because the man who was supposed to protect his children failed to do so. it was your father who did this, danny, not you.

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

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#24519 - 10/19/03 01:52 AM Re: need advice
wrangler Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 84
Loc: Northern Virginia
Danny

These are hard times aren’t they? I was also abused starting when I was sixteen and was not able to put an end to it until I was twenty. The man that abused me was not related to me… He was a very close friend though, a man that I trusted with my deepest and darkest secrets. He knew much more about what was happening in my life as a teenager than anyone in my family. He was/is also well respected in the community and when I told the police (I was an adult by that time) they refused to take any action because they said my repeated visits to him constituted consent in their opinion.

My entire adult life (which is apparently only a few months longer than yours) I have struggled with many of the things that you have described in your post. They are very confusing and frustrating. The fact that there were physical aspects of the sexual abuse that seemed (particularly in retrospect) enjoyable makes the situation so much more baffling.

Your feelings of shame and responsibility are very familiar to me. You said “I was not an innocent little kid, I knew what I was doing was wrong, I should have said no. I never did.” I have held this belief since the time the abuse was happening to me. I know how powerful and convincing it is. It is true that you were not a little kid, but you were not an adult either. You lacked an essential understanding of what was happening to you. But these people that prey on us know exactly what is happening. They understand sex and power and manipulation in ways that no sixteen-year-old, no matter how adult he feels, could ever rival.

Aside from whatever feelings of responsibility you are bearing, your father was the one that possessed the adult understanding of the situation and had the power to steer the situation in the direction that suited him. You feel like you knew better, but you were only sixteen. Try to imagine how complete your father’s knowledge was about how wrong his actions were. He had an entire lifetime of experience to use and you were still trying to sort out your own identity (that is what all sixteen-year-olds are doing).

I will be the last person in the world to try to take away the feelings you have right now about responsibility. My experience with them is still very fresh (nearly ongoing, but not quite) and I know all to well how hard it is to conceive of the situation another way. But I do hope you see that however much you feel like you bear, you father was *more* responsible. He was the one that was supposed to protect you from confusing and damaging sexual situations and instead he inflicted one on you.

It might have been possible for you to get up and walk away from the situation. It certainly was in my case. I was the one that drove to this man’s house even though I had a pretty good idea about what would happen to me there. That really plucks the responsibility nerve. But as I work though this, I am learning that physical coercion is not the only way to manipulate a child (or even teenager) and maybe it is not even the most effective way.

At first glance it might seem odd that you did not bolt at the first physical opportunity. That you could have gotten away but chose not to may seem to imply that on some level you wanted what was happening. Consider for a moment women that are severely beaten by their husbands. It is well publicized now that they may stay in that relationship even with repeated opportunities for physical escape. It is pretty hard to imagine that they *want* to be beaten to a pulp. But they stay anyway. And we stayed. So if it is not because we wanted what was happening why did we stay?

I know why I stayed and I suspect it is pretty similar to the reason you will discover for yourself. I stayed because I wanted *something* (companionship, friendship, advice on life, parenting, and so on). I needed to satisfy those very normal, healthy needs. I kept going back not because I wanted more sex, but because I wanted a friend, mentor, parent… But the sex is always there and by walking away from that I also walk away form one of the only sources I know of the other, good things I think I am getting from the relationship.

But I was only sixteen and I was processing this stuff the best I could, which was not very well considering what I know now. But no matter, because what teenager is emotionally mature enough to understand all this while in the midst of a traumatizing, abusive relationship. None that I know of.

Now I am not trying to argue with you about how responsible you think you are. You can have as much or as little responsibility as you feel like you want. You won’t surprise me any if that amount swings all over the place either. All of the blame one minute and none the next. I have been there and felt all of that.

But I do hope that you see that sex was not the only aspect of your relationship with your father, and that by walking away from the sex, you may have feared you would give up the entire relationship, good and bad parts. It is a pretty tall order to ask a sixteen-year-old to give up his father or confidant or best friend or whatever else you want to call it. So try not to be to mad at yourself for the choices you made.

Now about wives… I am also married and my wife has also moved out. She left about seven weeks ago and it is not entirely clear whether we are getting divorced or not. I have a very vivid understanding of your feelings on that subject. Last chance to get her back. Everything hinges on this next conversation. What can I do to make this better, like it didn’t happen, and so on. There is a whole truckload of shit that gets dumped on when you have to deal with a separation and an insurgence of feelings about the abuse at the same time. The two things run together and can’t be separated.

I have a few things to say here that I know will irritate you (they did me anyway). But I am going to say them anyway. Then they can gnaw at you and give you something to brood about.

First, the entire fate of your life does not hinge on one woman. It feels like it does, believe me I know. (Don’t forget I am going though this right now, even as I write this). But there are other women, friends, *people*. I do not mean to imply that you should give up on this relationship. I only want to emphasize the fact that you had enough charm and appeal to attract her. You still have that, so should the unthinkable, unimaginable horror actually happen, it is *not* the end of your potential for happiness.

Okay, second… We are in a very dangerous place where loneliness and love feel very similar. I obviously cannot sort those feelings out for you, but it is important that you realize a lot of what you feel now is lonely. Lonely is a *very* powerful emotion… I would argue that it influences our behavior more than rage.

I could probably go on about these types of things, but that is surely enough irritating stuff in one thread!

So back to my main point here… you are absolutely not alone in this. Somewhere else in the world I am sitting here experiencing many of the *exact* same thoughts and feelings as you are. You get the added bonus of knowing that our ages are pretty darn close, so our marriage experience is probably pretty similar too. Nothing I read in your post surprised me. It made me very sad, but it was all very familiar.

We are not bad people, but we are hurting. They say misery loves company so I hope you feel a tiny tad better knowing you have company.

George

_________________________
"Don't waste your time on jealousy. Sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind. The race is long and, in the end, it's only with yourself." -Mary Schmich

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