Newest Members
Stormchaser, johnnyc717, bluebook, Roscoe, SJC
12314 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
clutzygurl (22), dun (50), Gene (50), ufp1964 (50), Zoot (68)
Who's Online
5 registered (Obi, 4 invisible), 14 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12314 Members
74 Forums
63357 Topics
443029 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#244854 - 08/15/08 08:47 PM Re: Boy Scouts and CSA [Re: conflicted]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Rob and Larry, I hear what you're saying - but that's the way it was. The specific instructions were, to notify the District liason, who would notify police (or so it was claimed). You were also told specifically never to talk about the allegations with anyone, at all, period, except for the District liason, and the rep from childrens' services IF any contacted you and asked about those specific allegations. Notice the kid's parents are conspicuously missing from that list.

We were told that to tell ANYONE else about the allegations would render us personally vulnerable to a defamation suit by the perp, should the allegations not be pursued.

As far as I know Larry, mandatory reporting applies only to medical care workers, educators, and government employees. Volunteer youth group leaders aren't included, and I don't think are protected under the "reporting in good faith" provisions that the above-listed people are. All we're considered to be doing is spreading heresay - which, again, is actionable if the victim later decides to clam up.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

Top
#244856 - 08/15/08 09:14 PM Re: Boy Scouts and CSA [Re: pufferfish]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Quote:
In fact, since its founding in 1910, the Boy Scouts of America has kept files on volunteers it considers to be unfit, including sexual abusers, criminals and homosexuals. The organization has periodically purged the files, according to depositions in other cases.

As early as 1935, the organization had files on about 1,000 so-called degenerates. The Stewarts' attorneys counted 732 files from 1946 to 1971.

I see two things to comment on here. The first is lumping gays together with abusers and criminals. The BSA obviously still has a long way to go on this one.

But on the issue of files I can imagine what a nightmare this must be for records back into the 60s, 70s and 80s, before everything was routinely computerized with standardized ways of searching for information. It would have been practically impossible, for example, to match up records from different councils and states to detect if a pedophile was simply jumping from one Troop to another. And once you find something that looks like a match, how would you determine whether "John Smith", "J.T. Smith", and "Jonathan T. Smith" were all identical to known abuser "Jonathan Smith"? Most councils were and are run by a skeleton staff of volunteers who had no training or time for doing sophisticated comparisons or checking.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#244857 - 08/15/08 09:17 PM Re: Boy Scouts and CSA [Re: melliferal]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Originally Posted By: melliferal
We were told that to tell ANYONE else about the allegations would render us personally vulnerable to a defamation suit by the perp, should the allegations not be pursued.

As far as I know Larry, mandatory reporting applies only to medical care workers, educators, and government employees. Volunteer youth group leaders aren't included, and I don't think are protected under the "reporting in good faith" provisions that the above-listed people are. All we're considered to be doing is spreading heresay - which, again, is actionable if the victim later decides to clam up.

Yes, I see what you mean now. I had forgotten the point about volunteers working with non-profit organizations. Thanks for the heads-up!

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#244865 - 08/15/08 10:04 PM Re: Boy Scouts and CSA [Re: roadrunner]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: roadrunner
I checked on the number of victims a perp might have, and in the stuff I read it was stated that among abusers who abuse boys outside the family circle, the average number of victims is 150.


I've heard you cite that 150 number before, Larry, but that seems extremely high to me for two reasons. First off, I pay close attention to child abuse cases on the news, and I rarely hear of anyone who has committed that many offenses. Second, if the average number is 150, then it seems to me that abusers would run out of children to abuse at some point. Five thousand alleged abusers times 150 boys each equals a mind numbing, absolutely staggering three quarters of a million victims.

Of course, I am willing to submit that the extreme here, someone who has abused thousands of boys, might bring that average up quite considerably, but at the same time, it must be submitted that such an average is only based on estimates. It's kind of like the number that says 1 in 6 boys are abused, only that number is more believable because so many people in society show the characteristics of being abused.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#244881 - 08/16/08 12:44 AM Re: Boy Scouts and CSA [Re: BJK]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6843
Loc: USA
Brian,

I'm not trying to apply a corrective to you.

Suppose it's only 10 victims per perp.

That's 10 devastated lives. Lifelong damage.

Puffer


Top
#244928 - 08/16/08 08:40 AM Re: Boy Scouts and CSA [Re: pufferfish]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
And after the Boy Scouts were tired of someone, there were always plenty of unsuspecting summer camps, church schools, and lifeguard jobs to chose from. In the days before credit and employment verification reporting, there wasn't a lot of checking someone's references, which oftentimes were falsified rather easily. So really some of these abusers could have been fairly prolific over time. And remember, back in the 1950s through the early-1980s, this was an almost unreported problem with with almost no available professional help to resolve it.

Just my thoughts,

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



Top
#244933 - 08/16/08 09:20 AM Re: Boy Scouts and CSA [Re: Trucker51]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Bryan,

Hey, I hear you loud and clear and yes, the implication is that there are vast numbers of abused boys "out there". But we know that anyway, don't we? If 1 in 5-6 boys is abused before he reaches the age of 18, that means millions just in the USA alone.

The study that came up with that figure of 150 is G. Abel et al. in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence 2 (1987), pages 3-25. There's also a brief summary in Josef Spiegel, Sexual Abuse of Males: the SAM Model of Theory and Practice (New York: Brunner-Routledge, 2003), page 28. Abel and his colleagues found that 153 abusers abusing outside their family circle had committed 43,100 acts against 22,981 boys.

Details like this can be known because abusers very often keep records on their computers - a self-tribute to how powerful they are. They record the boys' names, personal details, sexual de>
_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

Top
#244936 - 08/16/08 09:32 AM Re: Boy Scouts and CSA [Re: Trucker51]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: Trucker51
And remember, back in the 1950s through the early-1980s, this was an almost unreported problem with with almost no available professional help to resolve it.


I remember seeing a film recently on the internet; it was an uploaded old '50s educational film called "Boys Beware", in which a police officer offered example cases of how "homosexuals" like to lure boys, and how to avoid them. The big row at the time I saw the film was the implication that "homosexual" was equivalent to "child molester". Well, it IS something of a no-brainer that in the '50s, the terms were considered synonymous. But if you're able to set that aside for a moment, the film DOES describe the grooming process rather accurately.

But there was one thing that confused me about the film; the first case study, in which a boy is groomed, and it is implied that he is sexually abused, ends when the boy "finally" tells a teacher about the situation. The scene shows the boy walking shamefully out of the police station with his parents; according to the narrative, the perp was arrested...and the boy was given "probation" and "released to his parents". I know the mindset was different back then, but this one threw me for a loop. A male victim who came forward about abuse was subject to being charged and sentenced to probation? For being abused? Wtf?

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

Top
#244948 - 08/16/08 10:08 AM Re: Boy Scouts and CSA [Re: melliferal]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
I've seen that film, Mel. It was very disturbing. Jimmy accepts a ride home from a stranger after basketball practice. Before he knows it, Jimmy and this stranger are good friends. Soon, this friend is asking Jimmy to do things he doesn't want to do....

Anyway, in no way am I trying to minimize the implications of abuse. I agree...even ten victims per abuser is a LOT.

Larry, I did write a thesis about a year ago that was never printed about child abuse arrest cases. I don't have the thesis handy, and I'm too lazy to do redundant work, but my findings throughout several studies were that the number of arrests in abuse cases is actually much higher than 3.3.%. However, the important number is how many convictions result from those arrests, and that number was less than 10%. Keep in mind...this is a percentage of a percentage, meaning that less than 1% of all abusers are ever convicted of any crime.

What I'd really like to know, though, is how many abused boys, girls, men, and women actually end up getting help for their abuse. To me, that is the most important statistic, because those who are abused without getting help are the most likely to perpetuate that abuse.

Bryan



Edited by BJK (08/16/08 10:09 AM)
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#245044 - 08/16/08 03:50 PM Re: Boy Scouts and CSA [Re: melliferal]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
Cleveland, eh?

I lived there for 10 years between 1977 and 1991. My first attempt at recovery in 1986-1988 was through Cleveland State and my first group was at the old downtown YMCA which I believe was at East 22nd and Prospect. There was a counselor there named Courtney Pullen from whom I still have some cassette tapes somewhere. But Cleveland is also where it went so wrong after my first wife left me in the recession of 1990. Back then the group was was only a few years old, and Mr. Pullen told of how difficult it was to find help 5 or 10 years earlier. I was really insecure and immature back then and never really became a secure and contributing member of that first group. But that is where the initial groundwork for my later recovery was laid. Most of my abuse occurred when I grew-up around suburban Detroit.

It would have been nice to see that film back in the 1960s, but the kid's arrest would most likely have frightened me off even worse. My first abuse incidents were in 1962 or 1963 when we lived in South Burlington, VT. My parents were whacked on a cult faith-healing religion, and they filed a religious exemption to keep me out of sex-ed back in 1969, by which time a lot of damage had already been done in my case. The most likely place that this problem might have been addressed would have been in sex-ed at the age of 12, and the knowledge lost might have either prevented or made me more aware of a number of incidents that happened over the next two years at that point. I still don't think that having that knowledge myself would have changed my mother's violent reaction to my accusations against her church friends in the Summer of 1972 though.

Bryan: To answer your one question, two out of three of the afflicted children in my family sought professional help, while the other leads a productive but curiously withdrawn and isolated life. And in another family with a long abuse history that I know of, only one out of three from that family have made it out of the woods almost 35 years later, while the other two languish in prison. One of my best friends is still struggling with the ongoing effects of a physically-abusive childhood, has been in therapy off and on for a dozen years, and has now been clean off of a lifelong drug habit for a whole 13 months. He is the only one of four in his family who has sought therapy, and two of the three others live obviously withdrawn and less-productive lives filled with various symptoms. So just in my experience, 4 out of 10 have sought professional help, though in two out of three cases, these families had the available funds to afford private help. My guess that the percentage would drop with the available income level.

Again, just my thoughts,

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Chase Eric, ModTeam 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.