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#242951 - 08/07/08 12:30 PM He thinks love is a feeling
Brokenhearted Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 644
Loc: TX
(This post is also in the "guilt" post)

Last night he said he doesn't love me anymore. I told him love is a decision, not a feeling (or rather, in his case, lack of feeling). He thinks that's a bunch of bull.

His reason is that I deserve better. I told him it doesn't matter what he's done in the past, he belongs with me. He said I deserve so much better.

Looks like the end is near - it is his decision, not mine, but I cannot fight him forever on this. It is exhausting and hurtful. He repeated over again that it's not me, it's him... That his 'not loving' me has nothing to do with me! I got angry and told him I hope that one day he loves someone as much as I have loved him, and that the person does to him what he's doing to me, takes away his family life and future and says they don't love him anymore.

I have to get a job and pay off some of my own credit cards. Then I guess it's separate ways.

He still says, "Let's just take it one day at a time." And I thought I heart him mumble "....don't know what the hell I want," and, "I just need time and space....."

If only I could get him to go talk to someone first.
_________________________
Brokenhearted

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luke 17:2


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#242956 - 08/07/08 12:40 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Brokenhearted]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
But love IS a feeling!

And one very strong result of abusive childhoods is either never learning that feeling or completely shutting that feeling out.

I grew up thinking that love and sex were one and the same. I thought that loving something meant that I wanted to have sex with it. I've grown so much in the last year. I've realized that love is something different.

But it's not a decision. It IS a feeling. And it sounds like your husband has never felt it before. I have a great sadness for him, for since I discovered what love is, I simply cannot imagine life without it.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#242961 - 08/07/08 12:52 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: BJK]
Junefriday Offline


Registered: 06/05/08
Posts: 113
Loc: Canada
Brokenhearted, love is definitely a feeling. However, there are many decisions associated with it. It sounds as though your husband needs to make a decision to let that feeling out/grow, or to squash it.

I am sure that many survivors don't know what to do with that feeling. If someone they loved is the cause of the pain, then their logic goes like this: Loved someone = got hurt = never love again. But sometimes feelings have a tendency to creep up on us and then even if we didn't want to feel love, suddenly we do. But to a survivor, that often triggers pulling back or pushing away.

It doesn't sound like you are getting anywhere trying to analyze his feelings. He won't be much help because it is probably safer for him in his mind if he just doesn't FEEL at all. What if you tried talking to him about what he wants. Not what he thinks is right for you, but WHAT HE WANTS. He will likely talk about what he doesn't want and then maybe you can dissect it a bit by asking why he doesn't want X or Y.

You also need to start thinking about what you want too. If he says that he doesn't want X or Y but those things are very important to you, you need to think about what you'll accept and what you won't.

If he wants time and space, is a brief separation an option?

_________________________
"Love comes to those who still hope even though they've been disappointed, to those who still believe even though they've been betrayed, to those who still love even though they've been hurt before.”

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#243032 - 08/07/08 05:54 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Junefriday]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
first off thank you BJK for always coming into the family & fiends section and helping us figure out what goes on within all your heads. I hope many more will take your lead and help us out.


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#243039 - 08/07/08 06:10 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: NY Daisy]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
Brokenhearted, I think that love is an emotion(which is a fancy word for feeling) and a decision. I just bought my H a book about love and marriage. It had little love stories from couples who have been married for 50yrs or more. I bought it for him to show that all of these couples are happily in love, BUT they didn't always feel it, all the time. EVERY COUPLE has problems. Every couple, go through ups and downs. Every couple has doubts about if they are married the right person. What makes it work. IS THE DECISION to work out all the kinks, TOGETHER. One couple said, "when we decided to marry, we took divorce off the table. IT WAS NEVER AN OPTION FOR US." By doing that, they said they made it a commitment to always work through it all, because the only other option for them was to be miserable and unhappy, and they didn't want that either. Point being it will never be perfect, so stop trying to find something that doesn't exsist.

June has some very excellent advice listen to her, my only add on to that would be to maybe ask him " do you really believe that ending our marriage will solve the problem, and make you happy?"

June is right decide what you want, make that your priority. you might be surprised by oyur answers.

Warmly, NYDAISY

P.S. my H loved the book. it really opened his eyes


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#243051 - 08/07/08 07:31 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: NY Daisy]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
I think there are different stages of love. There is the initial attraction. The flame, so to speak, that is accompanied by a desire to get to know each other better. Then there is the boundary setting, which I think is the stage that most survivors and partners of survivors get stuck in. Co-depency can easily result from a relationship where boundaries aren't properly set and established, and if this is done in a healthy way, I think we see the growth of the third stage...where each half of a couple is truly part of the other half.

The decision involved in a partnership, though, is more like a commitment that it is like love. I think love might happen as a result of a commitment, and a commitment might happen as a result of love.

I know, it's a nitpick, but I think it's an important one to survivors. My mother's family consists entirely of survivors, and many of them are involved in marriages that are full of commitment but no love. And then there are the marriages that are full of love, and I believe that real love always results in some kind of commitment.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#243090 - 08/07/08 10:46 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: BJK]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
I was talking to friend who asked me why I have such a hard saying "I love you", It was pointed out that growing up my love always had conditions to it. By saying "I love you" the next thing that enters my head is "and what do I need to do to keep you're love". It's alot of pressure on me because the person who was suppose to love me unconditionally always had just one more condition. It became a 37 year losing battle. It hurt so much when she passed away and I had never managed to pull it off.

Just a thought here but maybe it's a test, not that it's right or easy or even an answer, but a test to see if a condition to you're love is him loving back.

In my opinion anybody who wants another to find someone better, it's because they love that person so much.

Trust me I know how f***ed up that statement is, but then you asked what's going through MY head. I capitalized MY because I don't know for sure what you're H is thinking but I thought I'd say what goes through my head when thinking about it.

Standard line: just my thought's

Stay strong
Mike

Edited because I addressed my reply to Daisy, sorry Brokenhearted.



Edited by mogigo (08/08/08 01:28 PM)
_________________________
Thriving

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#243112 - 08/08/08 01:20 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: mogigo]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: mogigo
growing up my love always had conditions to it.


Many survivors, myself included, have no idea what the concept of "unconditional love" is. We think if we mess up, the love will end. I can really relate to this statement.

Quote:

In my opinion anybody who wants another to find someone better, it's because they love that person so much.


I can relate to this as well. "You deserve someone better" isn't something I have ever felt, but I have felt that "I don't deserve to have anyone love me". When a survivor feels that so strongly, there is no level of reassurance that will make that feeling go away, and we get to a point where any amount of reassurance offered starts sounding like it's a lie.

Self esteem is something that can't be repaired by outside sources. I know of two different guys on this site who are both great people. I have offered them both compliments to how much they have helped me in my recovery, and those compliments visibly offended them. They couldn't understand how anything they could possibly done could help anyone else, and my compliments sounded like lies to them.

It might sound far fetched, but I've been there before...so I know it's true. I'm not sure how this relates to the initial discussion other than hoping to shed some light on why partners who have been abused get hung up on certain aspects of relationships.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#243226 - 08/08/08 02:12 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: BJK]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
Dear Mogigo,

The "condition" of my love for my H is that it is "conditionless." I love my H in spite of the fact that there are times he CANNOT love me back. I choose to stay with him, because I LOVE HIM. I have excepted many years ago that this might not end well for me. He at any time can choose to go. I live with my H's issues, he has sexual identity issues, and has told me in the past he might be gay. Ok then if you are, there is nothing I can do. HE must live his life in a way that is best for him. I must live my life in a way that is best for me. Right now we are choosing to move foward together. Tomorrow that might be different.

I have to except what I can't change, and adapt accordingly to it. All this while taking care of our family, & household because he might be too disassociated to help, all without losing myself in the process. DO YOU THINK THIS IS EASY ON US? It's not.

In the many years I have known him, I have been the only constant in his life. I saw him through his first serious breakdown, even though he took it all out on me, I held him in my arms, when he woke up screaming from the nightmares, all before I knew. I held his hand when he disclosed to his family. I held him tight and listened to his pain when they all sided with his perp brother. I live with the day to day things that come up with this, he has tried to push me away many times, with his hurtful words and actions, I have sex with him whenever, and however he wants, I could go on,and on but I think you get my point. I DO ALL OF THIS INSPITE OF THE FACT THAT HE CAN END IT ALL TOMORROW by telling me he has chosen a diiferent path for himself. That is the risk I take. Are you going to say it is not unconditional?

Is it wrong of me to want a little of it back? I know his limitations, but for anyone to grow they have to sometimes take a giant leap foward and TRUST that you will be caught by the one who loves you. MY H knows I will never let him fall, and that makes a big difference for us.

I gave him the book because he thought we were fighting all the time, and did not see how we could be compatable. I look at life like everyone and everything is different. You do not have to agree with everything the other says, and that marriages go through different periods. HE LOVED THE BOOK. It gave him a chance to see nothing is always perfect, but the love can still remain.

As of today, my H loves me, but as you all know, tomorrow ask me again, the answer might be different. ONE DAY AT A TIME.

Lastly, I think that when someone says their partner deserves better than them, I don't think they love their partner more, it is a cop out, so they don't have to deal with their real feelings, whatever they may be.

Just my thoughts, NYDAISY


One last thought, is it fair that my love is constant,and he always knows where it is and can have it at any time, and we woman can't say the same thing.
WHO'S LOVE HAS CONDITIONS? NOT MINE


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#243232 - 08/08/08 02:38 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: NY Daisy]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2569
.



Edited by JustScott (08/08/08 03:58 PM)

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#243234 - 08/08/08 02:39 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: NY Daisy]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Love you Daisy \:\) \:\)

Quote:
Lastly, I think that when someone says their partner deserves better than them, I don't think they love their partner more, it is a cop out, so they don't have to deal with their real feelings, whatever they may be.



I would give anything for a partner like you.

Absolutely it's a cop out Daisy, it's an attempt once again to not deal with "ANYTHING"

I never once inferred to you that you're love is conditional, I only tried to make the point that "maybe" just maybe, all love is conditional to you're H. It wasn't an attack or an observation of you're love. It was only to try and point out his warped thinking of what love is. I am completely aware of how fucked up our thinking is, but then, I DO keep on thinking it.

I wrote in the idea of how wrong you're H is, not in how pure you're love is.

My attempt at posting was for you to get an idea of you're H, in no way was it an attempt at questioning you.

Once again Daisy, I can only wish that I had a partner as loving and understanding as you.

Don't ever question what I've said Daisy, I know more than anyone what a gift you are to a survivor.

You are my hero and my dream

Loving you so much Daisy

Stay strong
Mike

ps: don't scare me away now daisy, I couldn't possibly handle hurting a partner in my attempt for you to understand us. Please don't ever personalize what I say.



Edited by mogigo (08/08/08 02:43 PM)
_________________________
Thriving

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#243235 - 08/08/08 02:48 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: mogigo]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
I'm going to add to what Mike said. I don't think that statement is a cop-out. To the contrary, I think it's a statement from someone who doesn't understand what love is....from someone who has never been loved uncoditionally by the people important in his life, and now has no idea what it means when you tell him you love him unconditionally.

I've often said that the spouses of survivors oftentimes have just as difficult of a road to follow as the survivors themselves. I wholeheartedly believe that. But, I must also add that anyone who is "copping out" of dealing with his abuse is not a survivor.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#243247 - 08/08/08 03:30 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: BJK]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
Mogigo,

It would take ALOT more than that to scare me away. I love listening to other people's opinions, hearing their side of things. That's how we all learn and grow. However, I also love to challenge someone, I like the banter back and forth, and all the new possibilities and views that come from that. I drive my H crazy with that, "your making me think to much." LOL It can be over anything, we've had serious dicussions on things like socks.

I wasn't sure what exactly you meant by that, so I just went with gut, and answered with that.

I think you are right about my H. Love to him always had strings attached. He always felt that to be loved you had to do something to earn it. So he was always the guy, helping out everyone, even when he didn't want to, and if he asked me to do something for him, and I got side tracked by one of the kids or something, he would be crushed, like I just told him his gold fish died.

I could never understand it until one night we were talking about love, and I told him, that I loved him unconditionally. He told me that was impossible. WHAT?????? He said no one can love anyone else unconditionally, period. I said I loved the kids that way, he said that was different. I thought he was so wrong. I love the kids and you, more than anything else. You all belong to me in my heart, someday the kids will go, but my love for them stays, some day you may go ,but the love stays. You have half, thay have the other have.

He was not getting it. He says to me, so If I don't feel like mowing the lawn or taking out the garbage you will still love me? I of course thought this was silly,but he was serious, so I said of course, why would I not. So if I just came home at night, and put my feet up, and watched T.V. you would still love me? YES,YES,YES, I love you because of how you make me feel, not for what you do, you put those demands on your self, not me.

I always thought he had a TYPE A personality, it turns out he felt he always needed to be on, so that people would like ,need, and love him.

He relaxes alot more now. So I do see your point.

Continue to challenge me, I love it, NYDAISY


P.S. he said he could not love me unconditionally at that point, but would work on trying to make it happen. I told him no worries, I know he cares about me, or the good times wouldn't work out as well as they do. Just my thought.LOL


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#243248 - 08/08/08 03:38 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: NY Daisy]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
BJK, I stand by my feeling it is a cop out. You men are very tricky, and when a subject comes up that you would not like to deal with, you throw in a decoy, to take the focus off the real issue at hand.

It is just a thought, (MOGIGO I WILL BE STEALING YOUR LINE NOW FOREVER, SO LOOK FOR IT IN A POST NEAR YOU,LOL) but isn't this a coping skill learned long,long, ago?

You are right though, it is said by someone who has no idea what love is. With help from a loving partner, it can be learned.

Warmly, NYDAISY


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#243249 - 08/08/08 03:39 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: NY Daisy]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
BJK, you were my 100th post. Thanks for that. NYDAISY


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#243253 - 08/08/08 03:59 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: NY Daisy]
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
Loving someone unconditionally and staying with someone without conditions are two very different things. I will love my b/f forever, but he will not remain my b/f if certain conditions aren't met. No cheating; no lying; no hitting - work with me every now and again; if you can't go to the party, don't give me grief because I want to and a multitude of other things. Every relationship has conditions attached to it.

Part of the problem in my own relationship is that while my b/f understands perfectly what my conditions are and why I have them, he doesn’t seem to have many at all. For instance, he’s told me that if I cheated on him, he’d understand and be OK with it. In his mind, he (1) deserves it and (2) he doesn’t expect me not to. Quite honestly, that infuriates me! I believe that everyone can and should have expectations of the one they are married to/involved with. If we didn’t then just any old someone would do. It’s the ones we believe will meet our needs and expectations that we choose.

Daisy, I understand what your saying here:

Quote:
Lastly, I think that when someone says their partner deserves better than them, I don't think they love their partner more, it is a cop out, so they don't have to deal with their real feelings, whatever they may be.


I don’t see it as a cop out only because “cop out” to me denotes a conscious decision. The shutting down of feelings was a necessary survival tool at the time which has sadly morphed into a learned instinct over which there is little to no control. With therapy and time, that learned behavior can be undone. I believe that with all my heart. Sadly though it has become almost as instinctual as breathing so changing it is an arduous task.


ROCK ON.........Trish

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#243259 - 08/08/08 04:43 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Trish4850]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Sigh Trish, just sigh, there should be millions of you

_________________________
Thriving

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#243282 - 08/08/08 07:27 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: mogigo]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
Exactly, well said Trish, well said


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#243283 - 08/08/08 07:33 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: NY Daisy]
Junefriday Offline


Registered: 06/05/08
Posts: 113
Loc: Canada
If a survivor doesn't really know what love is, how is that so many survivors seem to have found great partners? We aren't stupid people nor are we desperate. We are with our survivors because AT SOME POINT, they did understand what love was and in fact, returned it. Why has that changed?

So I agree that it is a cop-out. No disrespect meant, I just don't believe it. I think it is too easy to say, "You deserve someone better" so that it doesn't hurt as much when the person actually acts on it.

Just my two cents.

_________________________
"Love comes to those who still hope even though they've been disappointed, to those who still believe even though they've been betrayed, to those who still love even though they've been hurt before.”

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#243293 - 08/08/08 08:30 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Junefriday]
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
June,

I can only speak from my personal experience, so take it for what it's worth. When I met my b/f he was not looking for a long term relationship, just a few dates and some company with the opposite sex. Quite honestly that's all I was looking for as well. Everything was supposed to stay loose and easy. Within 2 months though, I threw that out the window. This wonderful man opened doors for me, always walked me to my door, brought me flowers, called every day, he was my date for a co-worker's wedding, he met my family, he met my daughter, which was huge. In every way I could imagine, he was my gallant knight on a white horse! I fell hard which if you knew me would blow your mind - I don't do that. Responsible, practical and self sufficient is who I am. I didn't NEED a man nor was I looking for one to take up residence in my heart, but that's what happened.

Fast forward 4 years and the lid blows off my perfect little world. The man I knew was Dr. Jekyl but Mr. Hyde came out whenever I wasn't around. We - I went through hell. Why on earth would he lead me to believe he loved me and then be able to do what he did? How is it that Ms. Practical didn't see? I've come to learn that he, and probably many survivors, are perfect mimics. In my b/f's case, he knew, from observation, the right things to say and do in any given situation. He molded the perfect man for the outside world to see. I was just another one who got the gold treatment; he saved the dirt for the others, where he believed he should really live. The real problem came when I left the outside and got close. Then I became not only dangerous to him and everything he thought he knew about people, but he saw me as being in danger from him. He believed himself to be a terrible, depraved person who had no right to pollute my perfect world. He was right in many respects - he had no right at all to do what he did and to rock my world so horribly. He's sorry for that. Sorrier that any human being I've ever seen. After a tortuous few weeks, we got back together but it was so hard. He couldn't believe I would accept him back, I was having a hard time believing it myself. But you know what? I just could not wrap my head around the fact that the "bad" J was the true one. Everything I knew of him told me otherwise. Yes, this dark side existed and I hated it but I learned why.

He's in therapy to excise the demons. He trusts me more than anyone in his life; he's told me that and so has his T but in spite of that, in spite of it now being 7 years together (this month actually) he still can't understand why I'm with him because he believes I could and should have so much better. He believes this to his core. I tell him I do deserve better, not a better man, I've got the best one in the world as far as I'm concerned, but I do deserve a happier, more at peace man and since he's working so hard on doing that for himself, I'll stick around and wait for him.

I got to writing and couldn't stop so I don't even know if I answered your question but it might be in there some place. Sorry.

ROCK ON..........Trish

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#243309 - 08/08/08 09:37 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Junefriday]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: Junefriday
If a survivor doesn't really know what love is, how is that so many survivors seem to have found great partners? We aren't stupid people nor are we desperate. We are with our survivors because AT SOME POINT, they did understand what love was and in fact, returned it. Why has that changed?


A few survivors are lucky enough to have found great partners, but rest assured that they are in the minority. If you are a partner of a male survivor and find yourself on this site, you have one essential quality that goes into making a great partner.

When I look at most of my survivor friends, both on this site and off, I find that most of them are in unhealthy relationships. I'm not placing any blame here, but I am saying that a vast majority of the time, survivors unintentionally find themselves in situations that perpetuate their abuse time and time again.

I know it's hard to look at a relationship and thing, "Gosh...did he ever really love me?" But it must be accepted that a survivor's perception of love is vastly different than a non-survivor's perception of love, and I know from experience that a victim can become very good at faking love for ulterior motives. When a victim becomes capable of feeling love instead of faking it, he is progressing on down the road from victim to survivor.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#243311 - 08/08/08 09:40 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Trish4850]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
I think we all make valid points, and I don't think that Trish disagrees, she did say it is a survival mechanism, she just doesn't like the word cop out because it indicates conscious decision, which is what I agreed with at the time.

Thinking about it more and reading June's post, which I think we should start a new thread from-- IF YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT LOVE IS, HOW DID YOU WIND UP WITH GREAT PARTNERS. Good June. Anyway, why do we assume that it was an unconscious statement? How do we know he is not just trying to take the easy way out, so that he doesn't have to deal with his emotions. Are we not still making excuses for their bad behavior?

Lastly if June's H was not abused, and she told us that her H wanted out of the marriage and he said, "You deserve better, it's not you, it's me." would we make allowances for him then or would we think he was a selfish ass?

I would tell her to dump the jerk, and that he is right, YOU DO DESERVE BETTER.

I am glad my H is working hard to be the person he and I both know he can be, and I support the process, but alot of times, he is an ass, SA or not. The biggest thing here is it is ok, I love him anyway, and expect him to love me when I'm the ass.(Which if you can believe it, does happen. LOL)

Warmly, NYDAISY


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#243312 - 08/08/08 09:42 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Trish4850]
Junefriday Offline


Registered: 06/05/08
Posts: 113
Loc: Canada
I think your answer was "I've come to larn that he, and probably many survivors, are perfect mimics."

Your story, at least the initial part, is just like mine. I don't fall easily and though I WAS looking for someone, I didn't expect it to hit me as hard and as fast as it did. But my husband was truly everything that I was looking for. I saw it and so did everyone that met him. I guess he figured out a way to fake it for a while, only to have the real him show up later. I know it isn't really him, just the demons taking over. But I thought he was stronger than he is proving to be.

I do like what you said though, "I do deserve better, not a better man". That is a good way to put it - you're not looking for a different man, just for him to sometimes act differently.

_________________________
"Love comes to those who still hope even though they've been disappointed, to those who still believe even though they've been betrayed, to those who still love even though they've been hurt before.”

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#243321 - 08/08/08 10:18 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Junefriday]
Brokenhearted Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 644
Loc: TX
I know that love is often accompanied by a feeling, and there are different kinds, beginning w/ infatuation, puppy love, and then the strongest is mature love. Think too about how so many teenagers act in unloveable ways. If their parents decided they didn't love their teenage kids anymore because the feeling's gone, what would happen to families? There is commitment and tough love and other things involved in mature love, even when the feelings come and go.

BJK, thank you for your insight. I am sure CSA messes with one's mind as to what "love" means. No, I don't think my H has ever felt it before, which IS sad.

June Friday, Thanks, I WILL ask him what HE wants, instead of him rationalizing that divorce should occur because *I* deserve better, blah, blah, blah. Good point.

Mike, I appreciate you letting me inside your head. I am sure it is true...becuase a lot of times when I try to snuggle up to him or just say 'I love you', he will so often say, "What do you want?" Heck, I don't want anything! Just want to tell him how I feel, that's all.

BJK, Wow, when you say you have felt, "I don't deserve to have anyone love me", gee, I probably need to ask my H if that is what he thinks for himself too. Thanks for the idea.

NY Daisy, I know it is so tough to hang in there. Wow. I really hope for your sake that one day he can realize how much you care for him. And hmmm, it does make me wonder if 'you deserve better' is a cop-out.

Trish, I think you have a lot of reason to stay with your bf at this point , since he is actively trying to get better in T. I just wish I had half that in my situation w/ H.

BJK, "When a victim becomes capable of feeling love instead of faking it, he is progressing on down the road from victim to survivor." -- when or how does this happen, if ever?

NY Daisy - "Lastly if June's H was not abused, and she told us that her H wanted out of the marriage and he said, "You deserve better, it's not you, it's me." would we make allowances for him then or would we think he was a selfish ass?" This is the hardest part for me. My H WAS abused. But he is extremely cold/selfish/ass at times. Is it because of his abuse, or is it because he's just a jerk? Hard to know for sure. My heart wants to believe it is only b/c he was abused and that it has nothing to do w/ his real self. My head sometimes wonders. At any rate his selfish jerk-ness hurts a LOT.

I like that too : "I deserve better, not a different man."

Thanks everyone, y'all gave me a lot to take notes from for whenever I can talk to him again. He's working so much again that I hardly ever see him.

_________________________
Brokenhearted

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luke 17:2

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#243323 - 08/08/08 10:28 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: NY Daisy]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
BJK,

Very good points you have made. It takes 2 people to make any relationship work, and 2 to make it fail. However, many of us entered into this union absolutely clueless to who the man they married even was. We woman spent years totally confused by the sudden change in the man they loved. They spent years being blamed for things that (1)- they knew nothing about, and (2)- had nothing to do with us. We have been emotionally, verbally, and sometimes even physically abused by the men who "LOVE" us. some of us have had to deal with our H's cheating on us, withdrawing physically,and sexually from us, no affection at all. This all before we even know the reasons behind it. After, alot of us have lost all our self-esteem, have been broken, and mentally we have now shut down, NOW he wants to share what has been going on inside him.

Our men tell us their stories, and you know what, a funny thing happens. We forgive them. We had one foot out the door, the day before, and then poof, we are recommitted to making it work. We want to be their for you. We support you in your efforts. We marvel at your progress and hold you when you regress. We listen without judgement. You are harder on yourself than we would ever be. We do this BECAUSE WE LOVE YOU. We do all this knowing that to move on we must put aside our hurt feelings, and convince ourselves you didn't even mean it. It wasn't you,it was your pain. Some of us are the only one you told. So we now carry the secret, and pain around, with you. We don't have anyone to share with.some of us have to deal with sexual identity issues as well.

After all this, we woman still have to live with what June, and many others here are going through now, the end of their marriage. Is it unhealthy, yes. however maybe it is this way for many survivors, not because they picked the wrong partner, but because they cannot appreciate the wonderful person, that chose to love them even in spite of their flaws. That these men cannot see past their own pain long enough to see the good that they do have in their life.

All of us would be alot better off, if we took the time to stop and appreciate the good, instead of always focusing on the bad. Some men leave their wives believing that they are doing it for the good of the spouse, without any consideration to what the spouse wants. They think leaving will make it easier to deal with the pain, when all it does is it leaves them alone, and in pain. They now have no one to connect with, and it won't get easier, the pattern will just keep repeating if the don't get the help they need. I am so sad for these men.

So if SA survivors are in unhealthy relationships, I think they need to think about what they have done to make it that way, and stop blaming the spouse.

BJk, you seem to have a good understanding of relationships. I think when you find the right partner, you will have enough tools to make it work, through the good times and the bad. Have faith in yourself. You deserve much happiness, all you men do.

I tell my H all the time that he is his own worst enemy. I think this is true for many of you. My heart is with you all, NYDAISY


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#243325 - 08/08/08 10:54 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: NY Daisy]
Brokenhearted Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 644
Loc: TX
I guess another way to look at this is something I read recently in a Christian article about how 'love is a decision' as well as a feeling. The gist was, if a person find themselves in a relationship that despite that person's best efforts leaves them emotionally or verbally or otherwise abused, then that person must make the decision to LOVE THEMSELVES and get out of the relationship. So maybe that's how I'll decide to look at this if all else fails. There might be something to it, since I've endured so much pain and grief in trying to keep us together. So maybe at the 'end' - if he forces the end of it - I'll make the decision to LOVE MYSELF and be glad to get away from him.

We all have to mentally get our heads around our situations as best we can.

_________________________
Brokenhearted

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Luke 17:2

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#243326 - 08/08/08 10:56 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Brokenhearted]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Originally Posted By: Brokenhearted
BJK, "When a victim becomes capable of feeling love instead of faking it, he is progressing on down the road from victim to survivor." -- when or how does this happen, if ever?


At some point, a potential survivor has to take responsibility for his recovery. I have seen too many partners of survivors enduring bitter ends to not acknowledge that the transition from victim to survivor does not happen overnight. One of the sayings I use a lot is that the conscious decision for a victim to not perpetuate his or her abuse, whether intentional or not, is what separates the victims from the survivors. A lot of the partners who post in this forum are being abused to varying degrees in their own marriages, and that is truly unfortunate. However, what I have also noticed is that partnerships that rely on mutual respect rather than co-dependency seem to have the ability to move past that stage of "searching for bounaries" into something wonderful. After all, abuse really is nothing more than the continual violation of personal boundaries.

How does it happen? Well, for me it happened because I witnessed the love that some children, my sister's kids, had for me. I barely knew them, and yet they thought I was the world. I didn't understand how that was possible especially so soon after the emotional breakdown that I had upon realizing that my childhood was all a lie. If these four kids could love me just because I was their Uncle Bryan, and I didn't even have to do anything to earn that love, well...that clicked on a switch inside of me that opened the floodgates of emotion that didn't stop for well over six months. My perception of what love was before was that I had to do something to earn it. I've come to realize that all love really needs is respect, and my discovery of that was a life changing and life shattering experience all at the same time.

Love hurts to someone who has never felt it before, but its a pain that can continually be fed until it grows into something wonderful.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#243328 - 08/08/08 11:04 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: NY Daisy]
BJK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Daisy,

I agree that there is no coincidence that so many survivors find themselves in abusive or incompatible relationships. It's a result of their abuse, and I think "blame" is the wrong word to use as far as why this happens. A lot of these relationships are abusive both ways, but I will acknowledge that abuse begets more abuse. When someone is the victim of abuse and does not take the initiative to stop that abuse from perpetuating, he or she falls into the trap of living the>
_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#243330 - 08/08/08 11:46 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: BJK]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
Brokenhearted and BJK,

first- broken hearted you should love yourself NOW and always, do not wait till you see where your marriage ends up. I agree with BJK. Read his last paragraph.

BJK- I used the word blame because it is the word used by many here and alot of the Sa survivors "BLAME" their spouse for alot, which is why the women use the word alot.

I agree with what you said, this process does take a long time. I have learned that the hard way. My H told me 13yrs ago. He changed about 2yrs before that. WE FOUGHT ALL THE TIME. After he told we went to therapy together, and he stayed in his own.( he was going without my knowledge for a yr before I knew) We after a yr decided things were better and we ended therapy.

Things were good. We had a "normal" marriage. I never really even thought about the abuse, and he never brought it up.

5yrs later, it starts again. We go back to T. He goes back to his. We work on it again.

Things are ok, again. Our marriage is "normal" again. Same as before. AHHHH,life is good. OR IS IT?

Now here I am again. This time I know that my marriage will never be "normal". It is not a bad thing. We are getting along much better these days, and He and I are both committed to make it work. My mistake in this was believing that it could all be processed in a yr or so ,and all would be well. He definitely wanted me to believe it, when he had already known that it was not true.

I choose to trust his word, but I know that at anytime this could all blow up in my face,and I will have to deal with that day if it ever comes. The best thing for me is to focus on myself, and not just him.

He says he loves me, and that is a good thing.

Warmly, NYDAISY


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#243342 - 08/09/08 01:04 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: NY Daisy]
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
BH,

Daisy took the words right off my computer screen. Love yourself and take care of yourself NOW. No life should be so tied to another that we can't stand alone. It's not preferable, far from it, but if it happens, we have to be able to depend on ourselves.

I understand better from your post above what you mean about love being a decision rather than a feeling, but I think a distinction has to be made. Love is a feeling; it's what draws us to another person and makes us want to be with them, through thick and thin. The decision is just how thick or thin does it get before love alone isn't enough to hold it together. Mature love, as you put it, is comprised of everything that happens in our lives. Two people who started with love have built on that feeling as a foundation for enjoying all the good and withstanding the bad. When one side the equation gets stunted and can't fathom that ANY bad can happen if they love, there is a huge problem.

That's where survivors get caught up and have no idea what to make of things. My b/f, like your husband, says he doesn't feel. He doesn't understand the concept of love. He wants to and hopefully he's learning through me what it is, but it's completely foreign. All a survivor has to understand what love is, is the hell he went through by an abuser who may have told him he loved him and then hurt him or some fairy tale love they see told in movies. Neither one is real but both things are something he can see. It's all or nothing, anything in the middle doesn't fit.

Bryan, you're right. Most survivors wind up in destructive relationships. Before I met my b/f and when he cheated on me that's what he sought out. The women he felt comfortable with were as damaged as he was. He knew how to deal with that because he expected nothing better. His marriage of 11 years was a continuation of his abuse at home. The women after were vessels. Some were looking for a savior, which he appeared to be because no matter their lot in life, he treated them well but he ran like the wind from any sign of commitment.

ROCK ON........Trish

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#243346 - 08/09/08 01:14 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Trish4850]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
I've enjoyed this discussion immensely, and I have learned a lot about how the partners of some survivors feel. I just want to take a moment to thank you all. I feel I am almost ready for a long term relationship, and it helps to get your points of view before I take that plunge.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#243349 - 08/09/08 01:19 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: BJK]
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
Knowledge is power Bryan. But no matter how much you learn from our mistakes, you'll make you're own. Hopefully though, you can see that those mistakes aren't fatal if you recognize them. Go for it!

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#243361 - 08/09/08 02:05 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Trish4850]
dangal Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/09/08
Posts: 222
Loc: seattle area
BJK
I think when you find that someone you will do wonderful. You have much wisdom and strength. She will be lucky!!

Everyone on this thread

I've been gone and now just reading everyone's posts and some of it makes me smile because of how much we have overcome and some of it makes me hurt inside for how much people have lost, how sad people feel and how much turmoil is around.

After years of mental abuse and confusion I'm in a pretty good place with my husband, but I never know what tomorrow will bring. I've been a loving supportive wife, and I hope it's enough to carry it on for a long time to come.

Peace and total faith in ourselves is what I wish for all of us. I wish I had that complete faith that all will be well and live in the peace of it.

_________________________
~Jen~
Life is to short to blend in

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#243363 - 08/09/08 02:11 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Trish4850]
dgoods Offline
Guest

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
duplicate post



Edited by Trish4850 (08/09/08 08:09 AM)

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#243365 - 08/09/08 02:20 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Trish4850]
dgoods Offline
Guest

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
Sorry to barge in on this, but i'd like to mention two things that strike me as i've perused various F&F posts of late- 1) i think it's invaluable to have these perspectives available from those that love us, know us, and yet aren't us. Not to trivialize, but it's similar to seeing what you look like on TV for the first time- so much is familiar, but so many surprises too. The particular survivor in your lives might not always be ready to read what you write, but survivors in general benefit immensely from seeing your side laid bare, as well as stumbling across insights into ourselves that might not present themselves in the context of a therapy session or otherwise.
2) on a more personal note, i've only seemed to be involved w/ women who not only had issues of their own to cope with, but who also had the ability to break things off easily once things got too emotionally intense. The level of dedication to the male survivors in your lives has astounded and impressed me to no end (not to say i've never had a nasty, cynical, illogical moment of wondering whether the case has been submitted in a way as to present the F&F poster in the best light possible, but i know that's actually just old baggage making its presence felt). Sometimes i honestly find myself jealous and resentful; i find myself thinking, "i would've given anything to have ever had such strong, giving and courageous women as i see here fall for me..." But upon honest reflection, there probably have been chances that i rejected out of hand, simply because i believed such souls were too good for the likes of me. Anyway, whether your a wife, husband, sister, brother, mother, father or WHATEVER of one of us male survivors... "You can't help someone to their feet, if your own legs are broken"... Whoever you are, or whatever your situation, your rights to sanity, peace and freedom are just as valid as any of we survivors. I'd never claim that any particular set of circumstances is easily comparable to another, but sometimes it's absolutely appropriate to take the best counsel you could give to those you love, and apply it to yourself. Sometimes i re-read older posts of mine that i know were submitted in a relatively healthy state of mind, just to remind myself that i'm capable of positive, healthy thinking now and again... if poor ol' messed-up me can do that, surely you poor souls stuck in the trenches w/ us can find equivalent forms of self-reinforcement! Enough rambling... the point is, from the point of view of a survivor who knows what it's like to both act in a manipulative manner to get what we think we need, and honestly reach out for someone to love and tolerate us, your OWN emotional and mental health is paramount! Thanks to you F&F for all you've done on our behalf, but please NEVER neglect yourself. Otherwise, just like the nursery rhyme, we ALL fall down... or are at least consigned to the fate of the "walking wounded", with secondary victims of the abusers added to the ranks... hope this makes some kind of sense, sorry for butting in.

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

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#243396 - 08/09/08 08:11 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: dgoods]
Trish4850 Offline
BoD Liaison Emeritus
MaleSurvivor<

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 3280
Loc: New Jersey
You're not butting in at all dgoods. Your words are important and much appreciated. Thank you.

_________________________
If you fall down 10 times, Stand up 11.

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#243436 - 08/09/08 12:12 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Trish4850]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
I agree with Trish, dgoods, your opinion is always welcome here. WERE LISTENING!!!!


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#243671 - 08/10/08 02:32 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: NY Daisy]
dangal Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/09/08
Posts: 222
Loc: seattle area
TY dgoods.

_________________________
~Jen~
Life is to short to blend in

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#243864 - 08/11/08 09:02 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: dangal]
dgoods Offline
Guest

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 622
Loc: Richmond area
Thanks everyone. Sometimes when the thought-valve opens, there's a little bit of "firehose" intensity to it- but i'll do that w/ my own F&F too; stay mum or blandly innocuous for long stretches, then the stuffed internal pressures get too high, and suddenly someone else is being subjected to a stream of intense thoughts and feelings that are, for them, unexpected and hard to process.

At least with text, not only am i forced to consider what it is i'm communicating more carefully (MS should be glad i'm no touch-typist, heh), but also the reader can take their own time to absorb it (although i'm terrible at remembering to go back and format longer posts for readability).

One sign of stress that's hard to see when it's happening, but obvious afterwards, is "mental hopscotch"- one thing reminds me of another, which reminds me of something else, and -hey, did you ever see that movie on TV where.... etc., etc. Of course, something similar happens when i'm creatively inspired, but the emotional base is different; the former is like my mind has stumbled somewhere it doesn't really like, and is whistling nervously in the dark, while the latter is like when a greyhound's given a few square miles of open land to enjoy.

Hey, looky there- not one huge block of text, i remembered! ;-)

_________________________
Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak
Whispers the o'er-fraught heart and bids it break.

-William Shakespeare, Macbeth, Act IV, Sc. III

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#243870 - 08/11/08 10:02 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: BJK]
petercorbett Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2430
Loc: TEXAS
Hi, everyone, It's the old guy again.
During my first session with my therapist, last Friday, we got on the discussion of my feelings to my wife, and if I had discussed my secret to her, and my answer was a deafining NO, not no but hell no. How's our relationship, well... I have a hell of a time telling that I love her, I do but once in a blue moon. Do I give her hugs and kisses, yep.... again once in a blue moon. BUT I always tell my son (35) that I love him, give him a hug and (yep)a kiss, every time that I see him, and the same goes for my two grand kids, every time I see them the same affection. I cannot call my wife"honey", I cannot call my wife "dear", I cannot show any outside affection to her, ie kiss in public, I cannot hold hands with her when walking. I just guess that after we've been abused, sexually & emotionally by a mother or for that matter by a male, we just must be programmed that way. Now I've been "married" for 35 years.

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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#243887 - 08/11/08 11:15 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: petercorbett]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2569
I can see that Peter. Really can. Weird thing for me though, is that I have HUGE trust issues with women. But with my wife, I'm far far better with her than other women. Now I've recognized that I have some "trust" issues with her, but I've also recognized that those issues come from me and not anything she has/hasn't done. So I'm working hard to tear down those issues so they won't continue to hinder my relationship with my wife. Still have issues with other women though.

Nice thing about programming.... it can be changed and updated! I'm working hard on mine!


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#244924 - 08/16/08 08:18 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: JustScott]
petercorbett Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2430
Loc: TEXAS
Hi to all on these 5 pages. I am in the mist of love is a feeling isues. I have said in the last week or so on other pages that I would never tell my wife even on my last breath, as she would never understand. Now I've had only 1 therapy sessions and for some reason he focused on my relationship with my wife. And in retrospect it was crappy (from me to her) at best. I've always showed huge emotional feelings to my son and his two boys. Always telling them that I love them, hugs and kisses.But I have been selfish to my wife. I haden't showed her much in the way of emotional feelings, hugs kisses, I love you, etc. But this coming Tuesday is her (71) birthday, and I asked her this morning what she wanted for her birthday, and she told me YOU. Well now, supposedly when we choose to marry we are supposed to become one, but its been with (me 1/2). Like someone here uses the name damagedgoods, well that's what she got 35 years ago. Maybe it's time for this boy inside to give her my ALL. I know that there are huge risks involved. I told her that I would give her an answer by tomorrow PM. any help out there? I know the final decision is up to me. But perhaps most of you have dealt with this. I welcome any and all perspectives. Heal well my friends.
Pete
Pete

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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#244944 - 08/16/08 09:54 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: petercorbett]
BJK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/02/07
Posts: 1526
Well, Pete, I think the most important question is easy to figure out. Do you love your wife?

That is where your thoughts need to lie, I think. Because if you do love your wife, then tell her so! Can you imagine a better birthday present for her than the simple words... "Honey, I really appreciate the fact that you'ves tuck by me for the past 35 years. I want you to know tonight that I love you, I have always loved you, and I always will love you even though I'm not very good at showing it sometimes."

But if your answer is that you don't love your wife, then you have to ask yourself why you stuck with her for the last 35 years. What exactly is it that you do feel for her? Can you change that feeling into love?

No one ever said that any of this would be easy, but I have to offer a congratulations on 35 years of marriage. Let's hope that the next 35 are more fruitful than the first 35.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#244955 - 08/16/08 10:34 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: BJK]
petercorbett Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2430
Loc: TEXAS
Hi, BJK. I do love her, and you have given me the best possible help. I'll go for it. I want a better next 35 years. Many thanks for all of your considerate help. Heal well my friend.
pete

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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#244971 - 08/16/08 11:30 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: petercorbett]
Junefriday Offline


Registered: 06/05/08
Posts: 113
Loc: Canada
Pete, knowing that the person you love loves you back is an amazing feeling. It has incredible power and can make you feel as though you can accomplish anything. Your wife is stronger than you think - to have stuck by you for 35 years without hearing those magic words...that takes incredible strength, self confidence and yes, love.

Maybe you don't need to tell her about your trauma just yet. Do what Bryan suggested above - find it in yourself to tell her you love her and have always loved her, but have a hard time showing it and saying it. That might be enough for her right now.

Take it from someone who doesn't hear those words anymore - they mean more than you can ever know.

_________________________
"Love comes to those who still hope even though they've been disappointed, to those who still believe even though they've been betrayed, to those who still love even though they've been hurt before.”

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#245068 - 08/16/08 07:08 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Junefriday]
Liv2124 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 159
Loc: New Jersey
Brokenhearted,
Again, (disclaimer) being in hospice/dnr mode...
Love IS a feeling. But trying to explain what a "feeling" is, to someone who doesn't actually "feel" them, is like having someone speaking a language you don't understand, standing in front of you and asking for directions. As much as you want to help "convey", you can't. You cannot make anyone feel anything, nor can you "clarify" for anyone, what it is they are feeling. As human beings, we have limitations. This is true, sadly, even when the foundation is based on truth.
I agree with you on all the "deserving better" comments, because these are based on effects from the abuse, which, in my opinion, make them worthless. They HAVE to be addressed, but they have no real credibility in the big picture. This belief he has is based on fear.
Always,
Liv


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#245344 - 08/18/08 09:03 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Liv2124]
petercorbett Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2430
Loc: TEXAS
Hi all, it's that guy in his "Golden Years" again. Well I told her about (part) of my secret yesterday. So she had a night to digest the information. Today at lunch she aske me why I didn't tell her when we got married. I told her that it was still buried deep into my brain and soul, and until these last few months and speficaly the last 3 weeks it has come back to me with a vengence. So I then said Ok you wanted ME for your birthday so here's more the real meat of the problem. Well I didn't get the responce that I had expected, like wow, now I understand where you have been coming from, emotionaly towards to me. Nope. Like a hug and kiss showing that I now understand. Nothing, she is now watching a "love" story soap opera on TV. So maybe it's PAYBACK time towards me.
Pete

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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#245352 - 08/18/08 09:47 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: petercorbett]
Junefriday Offline


Registered: 06/05/08
Posts: 113
Loc: Canada
Pete, hearing something like that is a shock. I am sure she suspected something but may not know how to deal with it. Give her time. She didn't write you off over 35 years, please don't do that to her.

Congratulations by the way on taking this step. It is a big decision and regardless of the outcome, you should be proud of yourself.

_________________________
"Love comes to those who still hope even though they've been disappointed, to those who still believe even though they've been betrayed, to those who still love even though they've been hurt before.”

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#251831 - 09/29/08 01:33 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Junefriday]
petercorbett Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2430
Loc: TEXAS
Hi, Junefriday, well after we had a together therapy session together, and the last three weeks apart (I went to the USA) and she had time to digest my secret, and to try and understand my lack of emotions to her, my emotions toward her more than likely stem from the sexual abuse upon me by my mother, she killed my emotions in the deepset part of my mind and soul. However the primary CSA abuser was a friend of the family (male) and at times he had me and a small girl together in a phone booth rubbbing us into his crotch, feeling us up, and then rubbing me and the girl together, then we went to the cellar, and I really can't recall at this time if we all had done something sexual together. More emotional death. I didn't experience the emotional early teen years with girls, petting, etc. I had my first sexual encounter with a lady who was twice my age, I was 27 at the time, she taught me everything sexual, but there was no emotional attachment. Then 3 years later I met the lady who is my wife of 36 yrs at our therapy session together, I told her that when she married me and we stayed together for the last 36 yrs she got the only emotions that I knew. It wasn't right I now know, I and the boy inside will say goodby to those deep hurt emotions and say hello to my new emotional experiences with my wife, she now has an understanding just what I am going through, and I held her tight and told her that I am sorry for the lack of proper emotions toward her, we hugged and kissed, so I (we) are on our way, she will standby me, understand me and love me. Can't beat that.
Pete

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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#251832 - 09/29/08 01:34 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Junefriday]
petercorbett Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2430
Loc: TEXAS
Hi, Junefriday, well after we had a together therapy session together, and the last three weeks apart (I went to the USA) and she had time to digest my secret, and to try and understand my lack of emotions to her, my emotions toward her more than likely stem from the sexual abuse upon me by my mother, she killed my emotions in the deepset part of my mind and soul. However the primary CSA abuser was a friend of the family (male) and at times he had me and a small girl together in a phone booth rubbbing us into his crotch, feeling us up, and then rubbing me and the girl together, then we went to the cellar, and I really can't recall at this time if we all had done something sexual together. More emotional death. I didn't experience the emotional early teen years with girls, petting, etc. I had my first sexual encounter with a lady who was twice my age, I was 27 at the time, she taught me everything sexual, but there was no emotional attachment. Then 3 years later I met the lady who is my wife of 36 yrs at our therapy session together, I told her that when she married me and we stayed together for the last 36 yrs she got the only emotions that I knew. It wasn't right I now know, I and the boy inside will say goodby to those deep hurt emotions and say hello to my new emotional experiences with my wife, she now has an understanding just what I am going through, and I held her tight and told her that I am sorry for the lack of proper emotions toward her, we hugged and kissed, so I (we) are on our way, she will standby me, understand me and love me. Can't beat that.
Pete

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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#251891 - 09/29/08 05:41 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: petercorbett]
NY Daisy Offline
New Here

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 183
Good for you petercorbett, better late than never!!!! Enjoy this new life with your wife, you both deserve it!


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#252486 - 10/01/08 08:53 PM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: petercorbett]
cstjude Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Love is a state of mind.
Good evening All,

For me:

Love is unselfish but not self-less.

Love can only arise and survive where there is mutual respect, esteem, and affection.

I'd love to share with you a de>
_________________________
C.
Female, Friends & Family Forum Fan

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#252526 - 10/02/08 03:48 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: JustScott]
Stretch73 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 336
Loc: Sea Isle City, NJ
Since when is love a decision?

_________________________
"I was so poor growing up, that if I wasn't born a boy, I wouldn't have had anything to play with." Rodney Dangerfield

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#252528 - 10/02/08 04:05 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: JustScott]
Stretch73 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 336
Loc: Sea Isle City, NJ
I am utterly repulsed by this topic. Love is definitely not a decision, and to those who claim so are only telling the rest of us that we're doing something wrong. I didn't make the decision to love my partner or my son. I love them simply because I cannot help it.

I can only assume how fucked up a person would be if they are constantly told to "make the decision to love me." Rubbish!

Turn down the lights, turn down the bed
Turn down these voices inside my head
Lay down with me, tell me no lies
Just hold me close, don't patronize (don't patronize me)

Cause I can't make you love me if you don't
You can't make your heart feel something it won't
Here in the dark, in these lonely hours
I will lay down my heart and I'll feel the power
But you won't, no, you won't
Cause I can't make you love me if you don't

I'll close my eyes, then I won't see
The love you don't feel when you're holding me
Morning will come and I'll do what's right
Just give me till then to give up this fight (and I will give up this fight)

Cause I can't make you love me if you don't
You can't make your heart feel something it won't
Here in the dark, in these lonely hours
I will lay down my heart and I'll feel the power
But you won't, no, you won't
Cause I can't make you love me if you don't

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dfd7a1hEJf0

_________________________
"I was so poor growing up, that if I wasn't born a boy, I wouldn't have had anything to play with." Rodney Dangerfield

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#252543 - 10/02/08 07:42 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: NY Daisy]
new csa Offline


Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 5
Loc: none
i ampathise with how you are feeling, this is my 4h relationship with a victim of csa. it feels so increadibly insecure to be in the position that my lover could just decide tomorrow that its all over. then i start to question whether she realy loves me or just needs to have someone. no matter how strong the reassurances. but i have noticed that no matter what she says her actions speak the loudest. We parted ways when we first got together for a few months. we were travelling together and she got the opportunity to go with some other girls to a place she realy wanted to go. I told her to take the offer as quite frankly i was terrified of having my heart broken. she left saying that if she goes now then its over. it hurt soo much, all of em wanted her to stay but i just had to tell her to go, i rationalised that i did not want to interfear with her dreams.
two months later i called her and told her i was in love with her and wanted to get back together, she came and then we lived together for a few months to earn money to travel to her homeland. now i am here and it has been a crazy rollercoaster since i committed myself. i knew from the beginning it would be tuff but i also wanted to heal myself and for her to heal so that i can have the romantic love of my life that i have always wanted. Before i comitted i did not want to be tied down until i felt i was healed and she always wanted committment where as i feared it. now since i have committed its is i who lives day to day worrying that she will just change her mind overnight.

also since we got back together a problem i never new existed immediately reared its head. she has times when she wants sex and loves to have sex with me, tells me it is good (and is honest enough to admit that it is potential and she has had better experiences.) but suddenly her body freezes and she blocks love. she describes it as a wall surrounding her. that she put it there and has had her frustrated for years, ever since her first sexual partner, with every partner except one that she saw rarely and never made advances.

I can feel when she closes, and it hurts me so much. i can see that she has soo much confusion in her head and at times i grow impatient waiting for her to confide with me. but I know that i cannot expect that and it will come as a gift if she chooses to disclose.

she decides when sex will happen, i respect her when she says no, and we are openly communicative, i have learned through discussion and experience to read some of her non verbal prompts to stop.

i too am a survivor of CSA, and have only had the memories come back to me today. while exploring pages about sexual abuse to better inform me of what to do, i was also looking for stories from other partners of CSA survivors that described my issues. as i read i felt more and more pennies drop for me and have had full memory of 2 CSA situations. unfortunately i am of the Love = hurt = fear kind and feel that i have to satisfy my partner physically to feel secure in a relationship, meanwhile she is of the physical barrier to sex, emotion etc. which means my coping mechanism is in conflict with hers and they both play off each other. this is a good thing because it makes us conscious of our problems and both of us wish dearly to be freed of our hanguyps so that we can love each other without the murk and emotional programming that comes between us.

may divinity help us to clean our souls, forgive our sins, open to love and see our problems as little gems that awaken us to our full potential.

_________________________
new csa

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#252547 - 10/02/08 08:36 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: Brokenhearted]
new csa Offline


Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 5
Loc: none
Originally Posted By: Brokenhearted
[i]
BJK, Wow, when you say you have felt, "I don't deserve to have anyone love me", gee, I probably need to ask my H if that is what he thinks for himself too. Thanks for the idea.

NY Daisy, I know it is so tough to hang in there. Wow. I really hope for your sake that one day he can realize how much you care for him. And hmmm, it does make me wonder if 'you deserve better' is a cop-out.


NY Daisy - "Lastly if June's H was not abused, and she told us that her H wanted out of the marriage and he said, "You deserve better, it's not you, it's me." would we make allowances for him then or would we think he was a selfish ass?" This is the hardest part for me. My H WAS abused. But he is extremely cold/selfish/ass at times. Is it because of his abuse, or is it because he's just a jerk? Hard to know for sure. My heart wants to believe it is only b/c he was abused and that it has nothing to do w/ his real self. My head sometimes wonders. At any rate his selfish jerk-ness hurts a LOT.

I like that too : "I deserve better, not a different man."

if i may offer some insight, for me when i say to my parnter "you deserve better, i dont understand why your with me" theres a couple of things going on. firstly my feeling is of very low self worth which seems more obvious in the shining light of my lover. my mind thinks "tell me you love me" "is this real? is she telling the truth? there has to be an alterior motive" "Why me" "i love you soo much and could not bare the thought of my world again without you".

my suspicions having reflected alot on the issue are:

- I have heavy security around my soul and i need my lover to show me that she is with me without feeling obligated, i need to offer her freedom so that if she is not truly loving me i can keep the doors locked.

- yes this is a push to try to make her go away but deep inside its driven by a wish that true love will find the key and set me free.

- i have been and still can be very suspicious of my partner and i think that this is the child in me that has been hurt, i search and searh for signs that she is cheating on me as i cannot believe that she can be satisfied with me, it took alot of faith and trust to believe any of my partners when thay expressed that they realy enjoy sex with me. Now i am practising rational thinking with this but sometimes the emotional fear can be increadibly overpowering.

in conlusion i must agree with everyone that you are a godsend to this man. And i believe that you are in his life because all he has ever wished for is who you are.

I am truly blessed with my own godsend. and my thinking is that my GF is in my life because i have prayed, wished and cried soo many tears to have a person whom i can openly trust and share my true soul with. no masks. no barriers. and to show that soul takes alot of courage and hard work.

next time he says he doesnt know if he loves you, dont try to talk to him about it, love is a feeling and cannot be expressed clearly in words. rather be concious of when you are feeling the love and you can see the shine in his eyes that tells he is opening up because he loves you and thank him for it and thank yourself for leading the way and opening to him.

when i close down to my partner showing me love, i get so angry that she is loving me, because all i want is to be alone and unloved but the simple touch of her hand on me full with compassion dissolves the barriers and i am feeling love. it may not happen straight away but be vigilant, think of the times when you have most experienced that beautiful feeling, feel it flowing through your whole body, focus the love into your hands and touch his heart.









_________________________
new csa

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#252551 - 10/02/08 08:56 AM Re: He thinks love is a feeling [Re: NY Daisy]
new csa Offline


Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 5
Loc: none
from my own experience its when my love partner is threatening to leave that i feel the drive to improve. It is a blessing that my partner has problems caused by a csa and fears committment as my love for her drves me to become a better person and step out of the shadow into the light.

i wish to be the man that creates a beautiful healthy love with his partner so that i can accept security and happiness and love in its purest forms

_________________________
new csa

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