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#239757 - 07/23/08 12:44 PM Re: Spirituality versus Religion [Re: hogan_dawg]
VLinvictus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: hogan_dawg
VLinvictus - You said "simply believing that there is a god does not make one spiritual."

Why not? I think it would be enough. It may not be universal, but for that person believing in God, it strikes me they are at least as 'spiritual' as someone believing in 'the sacred', or 'carma'. Don't you think?

The question isn't meant to be controversial - little kids might have beliefs in 'God' but not have very sophisticated systems for dealing with the spirituality. Or primitive tribes who have a belief in a 'thunder God' or 'fox spirit'.


It is very easy to profess belief in God or some other religious principle without allowing that belief to influence one's actions or way of life.

Some of the most closed-minded, cold-hearted, and mundane individuals I've ever met have been members of the clergy (whose job de>
_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#239766 - 07/23/08 01:28 PM Re: Spirituality versus Religion [Re: VLinvictus]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
I agree there's a mindlessness to the invocation of many concepts and I too would not ascribe spirituality to folks who aren't somehow mindful of their beliefs.

Would you agree that just as the rote recitation of words and mindless performance of actions devoid of intention or meaning on behalf of participants can come whether one believes in God, or if one professes a belief in 'bodhi' or enlightenment?

I guess what I'm asking is, is it essential that mindlessness only happens if one believes in God, or are there mindless beliefs that can be non-monotheistic?

See where I'm going? I'm pushing whether it's God, that can only be a mindless belief, or if you believe that 'mindless' adoption of 'any' higher order belief is suspect?

Aren't there non-monotheistic 'poseurs' too?

Like, I know a guy who has been a <x> practitioner for probably 20 years and while he was destroying his wife and family with an affair, alienating people at work, falling into the booze, arguing with the GF, and generally being quite 'unspiritual' about how he was handling his life (by his own admission), he sat each day in his form of spiritual meditation and by his own account at the time, was spiritually connecting. Later, of course, he recounted how he was in fact, not spiritually connecting at all!

I know another guy who took on native spirituality to the point of really professing real belief, real mindfulness, right up until he was released from jail, whereupon he abandoned it.

So I dunno. I like the mindfulness idea. But there's also self deception that doesn't discriminate between faiths or spiritual belief systems.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/23/08 01:35 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#239770 - 07/23/08 01:38 PM Re: Spirituality versus Religion [Re: hogan_dawg]
MarkK Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: hogan_dawg
I guess what I'm asking is, is it essential that mindlessness only happens if one believes in God, or are there mindless beliefs that can be non-monotheistic?

See where I'm going? I'm pushing whether it's God, that can only be a mindless belief, or if you believe that 'mindless' adoption of 'any' higher order belief is suspect?


I guess I need someone to define "mindlessness" - because I'm not understanding phrases like "essential that mindlessness only happens if one believes in God".

Someone able to shed some light?

Tanx

M&m


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#239771 - 07/23/08 01:41 PM Re: Spirituality versus Religion [Re: MarkK]
hogan_dawg Offline
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Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Oh I'm sorry! Yeah LInvictus was saying, to paraphrase (please correct me if I'm off the mark), that he's known "Godly' people (for lack of a better phrase) who were all about reciting verse, or chanting, or 'going through the motions' of their spirituality/religion, who weren't very spiritually attuned at all.

I called it 'mindlessness' but I meant it in the sense of, like, 'rote recitation', or 'mouthing the words but not feeling the feeling'.

I'm of the belief that there are 'poseurs' of all kinds - even guys who do yoga. LOL \:D

Seriously though, I think we see more God believers being poseurs because of sheer numbers - there are just a heck of a lot of them around. If the world were inhabited by 2.1 billion believers in the 'Force', we'd find the same proportion of 'poseurs' dressed up as Jedi warriors.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/23/08 01:48 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#239776 - 07/23/08 02:05 PM Re: Spirituality versus Religion [Re: hogan_dawg]
AndyJB2005 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/14/06
Posts: 1242
Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: hogan_dawg
VLinvictus - You said "simply believing that there is a god does not make one spiritual."

Why not? I think it would be enough. It may not be universal, but for that person believing in God, it strikes me they are at least as 'spiritual' as someone believing in 'the sacred', or 'carma'. Don't you think?


There's a bumpersticker that can answer this question, I feel. It says:

"If going to church makes you a Christian, does going to a garage make you a car?"

You can totally believe in a God and whatever and be spirit-LESS. I.e. -- just going through the motions to get to Heaven. Just doing the bare minimum to be saved -- whatever that means in your religion.

That's what I see the difference between religiosity and spirituality in this context. \:\)

Peace and love. \:\)

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#239777 - 07/23/08 02:07 PM Re: Spirituality versus Religion [Re: hogan_dawg]
VLinvictus Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: hogan_dawg

Would you agree that just as the rote recitation of words and mindless performance of actions devoid of intention or meaning on behalf of participants can come whether one believes in God, or if one professes a belief in 'bodhi' or enlightenment?


I get the feeling that we are having two different conversations here. You seem to think I said something to the effect that belief in God is somehow "less spiritual" than some other non-theistic approach to the Sacred.

I said no such thing.

Jcf1957 said "Spirituality is simply and basically the inward humble response of an individual to believe that there is a God."

I said "...simply believing that there is a god does not make one spiritual."

I meant that the mere fact that one believes in a god of some sort is no guarantee that a person is likewise "spiritual." Belief that a god exists is not enough to constitute "spirituality."

You can say you believe in God and you can even make your career of it, but that does not automatically guarantee that you are spiritual. As I said earlier, spirituality is internal; it's a subjective matter of the heart. Religious belief is the assent to a set of doctrinal premises: "Jesus died for our sins," or "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet" or "if you act like a jackass in this life you may just come back as one after you die" or "an in harm none, do what thou wilt," and so forth. Those are things one can hold in the mind.

Spirituality is about bringing those ideas from the mind into the heart, generally expressed through action.

Quote:
I guess what I'm asking is, is it essential that mindlessness only happens if one believes in God, or are there mindless beliefs that can be non-monotheistic?

See where I'm going? I'm pushing whether it's God, that can only be a mindless belief, or if you believe that 'mindless' adoption of 'any' higher order belief is suspect?


This is what tipped me off that you've most likely misunderstood me. \:\)

Quote:
Like, I know a guy who has been a <x> practitioner for probably 20 years and while he was destroying his wife and family with an affair, alienating people at work, falling into the booze, arguing with the GF, and generally being quite 'unspiritual' about how he was handling his life (by his own admission), he sat each day in his form of spiritual meditation and by his own account at the time, was spiritually connecting. Later, of course, he recounted how he was in fact, not spiritually connecting at all!


This is entirely my point. Simply professing belief in <x> -- whether <x> stands for "Christianity" or "Buddhism" or "Wicca" or "Hare Krishna" or "Scientology" or what-have-you does not guarantee spirituality.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#239874 - 07/23/08 08:19 PM Re: Spirituality versus Religion [Re: VLinvictus]
hogan_dawg Offline
Guest

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 492
Taking a speaker's professed spiritual or religious belief of "I believe in God" at face value, and believing he owns a spirituality and spiritual life behind his words, gives me peace. It's rational, is open and accepting, which I value, and it feels trusting.



Edited by hogan_dawg (07/23/08 09:43 PM)
_________________________
I can say unequivocally that the lie of "To truly heal you must first forgive" has derailed more victims than the abusers themselves.
Andrew Vachs, 2003

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#239958 - 07/24/08 07:57 AM Re: Spirituality versus Religion [Re: hogan_dawg]
VLinvictus Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 273
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: hogan_dawg
Taking a speaker's professed spiritual or religious belief of "I believe in God" at face value, and believing he owns a spirituality and spiritual life behind his words, gives me peace. It's rational, is open and accepting, which I value, and it feels trusting.


Okay.

_________________________
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
~ Oscar Wilde

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#239968 - 07/24/08 09:37 AM Re: Spirituality versus Religion [Re: hogan_dawg]
MarkK Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/02/07
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denver, CO
Originally Posted By: hogan_dawg
I called it 'mindlessness' but I meant it in the sense of, like, 'rote recitation', or 'mouthing the words but not feeling the feeling'.

Thanx! That was one of my thoughts, and what I hoped you meant, but I really wanted to make sure. I'm back up to speed with ya now (I think).

And before I forget - I want to thank ALL of you guys for your insights and the sharing of your hearts. (and since I believe the spirit is a "resident" of the heart as the soul is a "resident" of the mind - I guess I'm thanking you all for sharing your spirituality...)

M


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