This is not a poem but some feelings I have or have had in my life.

Don't hate me because of my ego.
Don't hate me because I'm isolated.
Don't hate me because it's hard for me to trust.
Don't hate me because I'm not completely open.
Don't hate me because I get paranoid.
But please don't stop loving me because of where I'm at.
I feel I don't deserve your love because I'm not used to being loved in this way. I didn't really expect what we had to go on as long as it did. I openly blame myself because I feel what happened early on was my fault. In some way I could've prevented it(why didn't I)???

Right now I don't need you to sugar coat your love because I see the sincerity of it. I'm leaving because I don't feel exactly the same.

"I" won't hate you for any of these things, if you can talk to "me" about them.

Liv I know you won't hate me. Let me break it down for you.

The lines beginning with "Don't" I mentioned are things I go through at a mild level now in comparison to recent years. These are also random feelings at times, but still mild.

Where I mention, "But please don't stop loving me because of where I'm at." I was talking about how some progress I've made brings about change which rubs some people the wrong way.

Also, "I feel I don't deserve your love because I'm not used to being loved in this way. I didn't really expect what we had to go on as long as it did. Right now I don't need you to sugar coat your love because I see the sincerity of it. I'm leaving because I don't feel exactly the same." I was speaking of friendships I didn't feel completely comfortable in and I walked away from. Honesty had alot to do with walking away, from my part and theirs. Sometimes coming across a sincere friend (once in a blue moon) caused me to feel guilty and ashamed. By me not being as sincere of a friend it caused me to leave.

I also noticed someone else on MS dealing with similar feelings from a spouse. Only that man can be open and honest with himself and help is right there.

StartingOver08 - are you talking about me?

Of course there are so many of us, and so many of our spouses are at that point. Everything you say sounds so familiar - the "coming across a sincere friend (once in a blue moon)" - so familiar.



Again, so so familiar. Weird.

Funny how I can listen to this song and just relate

I've been to the edge, there I stood and looked down, you know I lost a lotta friend's there baby, I got no time to mess around.

Gotta bleed baby

My love is rotten to the core

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzB-3oKIfRw&feature=related


"Don't want to relate anymore", when he say's these words everything starts to change

Stay strong
Mike
_________________________

OK, so speaking of spouses...i am the spouse (15 years). how do you get your man to open about the awful things that are eating away at him?

Mine just opened up. Has not told me everything. But I let him talk when he feels like it. This is the worst thing I have gone through. There is nothing I can do to help him. He doesn't want my help. Shuts me out. Living life in limbo

LittleMiss- I was referring to you I just didn't want to come across offensive. I do know what your husband's going through but I wish I could speak to you more privately. Please start to accept PMs this would help.

Jala- What Abigale said is fine. Just be a good listener for now. Also, its okay to reassure your husband of opening up to you. Besides you are his wife and aside from God you should be his main confidant.

Abigale- You have the right approach just listen for now when he opens up. I will PM you later.

StartingOver08,
When I responded with the "I", I was speaking more "globally". And I have to apologize, because as you know, things are winding down for me and him.
I'm am truly glad you've made progress, really. He told me he always figured he had "time" to "talk to me", I reminded him that he was right, he's had 29 years and 10 months (but who's counting?)
I have frequently been asked if I would "do it all again"... I can say that, I'd like to go on record as having changed my answer. No. If I knew after 29 years I'd lose to the ghosts, NO.
I WAS feeling guilty, but I have nothing to feel guilty about. I spent 29 years paying the price for what someone else did to him, in one way or another throughout our relationship.
Love is never enough with this. I've read many posts from both survivors and partners alike, and "love" is an incidental. He told me his "uncle" loved him too. To hear him say that, makes it a total turn-off to me. It makes me not want to love him anymore, to think my feelings could be equated to the manipulative thoughts and actions of a pedophile.
How are we "expected" to respond, to any of this? There are many a book out there and I've had many years to read them all, but there isn't a single book out there on the "proper etiquette" for the un-suspecting partner. Where we've ended up, I'd put one word on a bumper sticker "RUN!" Who's going to write the book on the right thing to say when what he's bitching about is clearly not the topic at hand? If you agree, he gets pissed. If you don't agree, he gets pissed. And to shut you up for awhile, he shuts you out with 5 little words, "Not everything is about you." I'm leaving because after all this time, I've come to the realization that NOTHING is about me.
Always,
Liv

Liv, back and forth, love and hate, this and that, good and bad, right and wrong - sound familiar?? You agree with him, you're an idiot, you disagree, he's an idiot. You love him, you're stupid, you don't and you're just like everyone else. My one friend that I confide in - I tell her that talking to my husband (soon to be ex, I guess) is like trying to hold a river with my hands. He's slippery, and changeable, and impossible to pin down. I know how you feel, I know, I know, I know.

I too have wondered about "proper etiquette". I have read tons of stuff about the wrong thing to say when someone discloses. Lots of guys on these boards have shared bad experiences of disclosing. BUT WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO SAY????????? No one has ever said that. I even started a post asking that question, and I think it got only one or two responses (and one of those was from Trish, and I think she HAS to respond to everything!)

And after disclosure and on into life - WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO SAY????

And people say listen listen listen - BUT HE DOESN'T TALK!!!

Perhaps I'm way too pessimistic but I've a tendency to agree with Liv when she says "RUN". I say that because I know me and I know the 25 years of less than ideal things I put my wife through. On the other hand I now know that the situation I found myself in was not my fault, but staying in it after realization dawned would have been.

I would not presume to say what any of the partners here should do, but if hubby/bf is unwilling to face things you're life with him from this point forward will probably not get better. Only you can make the decision that matches your situation and what you are willing to accept in the way of his behavior. Sometimes a partners love and acceptance will make all the difference. Sometimes it only solidifies the survivor in his present course of denial, etc. My heart goes out to you.

Lots of love,

John

John, you're post shocked me a little, but the more I think about it, I guess you're right. The thing is that when we fall in love, we usually don't know the full breadth of the man we've fallen in love with and sometimes, by the time we do, it's too late to run, unless we see that bright red line that says STOP. If you had asked me years ago if I would EVER have tolerated the crap I dealt with because of my b/f's acting out the answer would have been a resounding NO, NEVER! I learned to never say never because circumstances taught me that what I thought was absolute had gray areas I wasn't even aware existed.

Liv, no, you have nothing to feel guilty about. You're right love is not enough. It's only the first brick. If it isn't built on, then it will sit there all alone.

Little Miss, I don't have to respond to everything

I agree that it feels like you are always dealing with a double-edge sword. I find with my husband, if I tell him I love him, he acts as though I am weak, pathetic and spineless because he is walking all over me. If I stand up to him and tell him that I deserve more and won't accept his lack of respect, then I am just like his mother and am the most stubborn, self-centred person he's met. If I say both things at the same time, he is silent. I don't know what is worse.

He blames our initial struggles on the fact that I didn't communicate enough. I tried talking to him but he was always withdrawn. Then I tried writing things down, filling a journal with my thoughts and asked him to read it. He had no comment. But yet I didn't talk about the fact that our relationship was falling apart...huh??

Wow, tough question Littlemiss, I'm afraid I don't have much to go on. My Dad asked if my abuser was male and when I said No I suddenly became a joke. I told my Brother and his comment was "stupid cougers". When I told my best friend I was raped by a female, he said "And?" When I told my family Doctor I was raped by a female, he said "I need to get more sun". When I told my first Therapist he said "at least she tried to make you feel better when she told me "it was okay to enjoy it".

All I've ever needed was to be told my pain was understandable.

That what I felt wasn't a joke.

Incorporate that into any answer and I'm pretty sure it will land the right way.

Stay strong
Mike

WOW, powerful words, Liv,Littlemiss, Walkingsouth and trish, everything you have all said makes total sense, and I can't disagree with any of it. Good stuff, NYDAISY

Mogigo, We must have been typing at the same time. I am so sorry that your disclosing was met with ignorance.

It really pisses me off that people seem to think that only men can be sick. You see female teachers getting arrested for sleeping with their students, and all they get is a slap in on the wrist, and it's touted as a love affair. WHAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE????
Woman can and do hurt children. I don't know if it has to do with woman supposedly have that "NURTURING" instinct, but we all know that is not true for everyone.
In my H's family, my H was abused by his brother. This brother also abused a few of the sisters. One of the sisters in turn abused the youngest sister. Their was a 11 yr difference in age. THose ignorant people were actually relieved to find out that it was the sister, not the brother, because in their words " at least this wasn't the same thing, this was only two innocent kids exploring." WHAT?????? It was shortly after that, I told my H I wanted nothing to do with people like that, and I certainly don't want them near my kids.(THese were his sisters, his parents stopped speaking to my H immediately after he told.)

Your pain is not a joke, and you have a right to your feelings, don't let anyone tell you otherwise, NYDAISY

Liv and LittleMiss, you both are remarkable women for going through your similar situations for so long. The honorable side of both of you is that you were real about your feelings.
Realness and honesty should be major parts of what marriage is built on.
I'll say this, as men alot of times(and I know women face this too) we are peer pressured to at different degrees in our lives. You know living up to others standards when the standards have nothing to do with the way you really feel. I was being told at a younger age I would get married one day and have children (and a house on a hill with a little picket fence). That part is fine being told all of this stuff, but coming home and being pressured into relationships is bad news. You never want to pressure a person into a fake relationship, a relationship that isn't thought of by both parties as a mutual understanding or a relationship of unbalanced morals.
Painting a picture of marriage ain't so pretty when the portrait starts to come to life. Being honest and realistic in marriage is extremely important, but having that chiming voice of peer pressure involved helps impair clarity of right and wrong.
I hope in all of this I have said something worth while.
God bless.

Mogigo, I was shocked to read how people reacted to you. It's amazing. What do they think rape is? What was being done to you was not asked for or wanted. How would they like it today to be forced to have sex with something that they didn't want to. I think they might find it a bit painful. Daisy is correct, pure ignorance. I'm sorry that happened to you. You do have a right to those painful feelings.

Starting Over, I think the hardest part of being a spouse to a man like mine, liv and little miss's is the fact that we don't truly know who we are married to. Which rant to do we believe, what is true? The man who comes home and says he can't take another day being married, he's not the type to be married and he shouldn't have ever been in a relationship due to his faults, or the man who looks at you and begs for you to never leave, not to give up?

I don't think any of us want to force a man to stick around, but knowing you are losing what you have because someone damaged their soul, because they feel less then, because they have been hurt is a hard way to lose a love of a lifetime. I'm lucky in that my husband has finally starting really working on himself and us, and I'm no longer fighting a losing battle.

I understand what you are saying for sure, it's just hard when who we marry isn't who we married, and trying to pick up the pieces from all that confusing and pain. We stick around and never give up sometimes just from the guilt of not being the one who proved him right, everyone just leaves and causes pain.

Never knowing what's a test and what's the real deal.

Heck ya, we are amazing woman! What does that give us? I don't know! All I can say is if I had not choosen to stay and try I would have never seen this day where my husband gives me the love I always knew was in there, gives my kids the dad they need and deserve and a man who is sleeping pretty dang good at night now, next to his wife. Is it going to last forever? omgosh I don't know if I'll ever be in peace, scared his demons might take over and take him away again....I think I'll just enjoy what I have whilst I have it......

Maybe you have forgotten that we, the spouses/girlfriends, believed that the relationship we have had all these years WAS real and WAS "thought of by both parties as a mutual relationship" - because THAT IS WHAT OUR HUSBANDS TOLD US.

We did not pressure anyone into a "fake" relationship. And the fact that our partners came home one day and suddenly declared our relationship a "fake" has absolutely nothing to do with us.

And I think that the fact that I spent all day today moving, because my husband "needs space", proves that I am not pressuring anyone into anything.

And I have no idea what you are talking about - "unbalanced morals"??

mogigo, I think it is terrible the way others reacted. I think maybe, in a way, a female perpetrator is worse. My husband was abused by a female family member/caregiver. It just makes life so much harder because women are supposed to be 'the nurturers', so when a woman is the perp, it just throws the world even further off balance than CSA already does. Especially when you have ignorance, such as in your case, about how "you should deal with it".

LittleMiss, I'm sorry you are hurting behind everything going on in your situation. When I spoke of being pressured into a fake relationship I was reflecting on myself and things that lead to non-mutual relationships. Nothing I said was to be aimed at anyone. I also meant it wasn't a mutual understanding due to one party being sincere in their feelings and the other not. This is what makes it not a mutual understanding. No one other than the person themself is responsible for not being up front with true feelings. I still commend you all for sticking with your spouses as long as you have and hope for you the best in the end.

Ithought Mike Lew had a good guideline on this in the F& F chapter- To make it clear that you agree your partner has EVERY RIGHT TO BE ANGRY, Frustrated, Feel lonely, etc, but to direct it to the partner is NOT okay.

the first part being important to acknowledge first. I haven't paraphrased it ideally - Got the book out for exact quote

"When someone is in the midst of any angry outburst, he will not be amenable to reason.......Later, during a calmer time, the two of you (perhaps with a third party present)can discuss what was going on.

LET HIM KNOW THAT YOU CARE ABOUT HIM BUT ARE NOT WILLING TO ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE THE TARGET OF MISDIRECTED ANGER (caps mine).
By not accepting anger that doesn't belong to you, you are helping your friend focus it where it belongs. He then learns to use his anger to facilitate his recover. He then learns to use his anger to facilitate his recovery. Int his way, anger is transformed from weak, frightened, defensive posturing to the power of righteous indignation-standing up to the abuse."

then the next section, equally relevant is on Blaming- i wont' put it here but it's pg 342 if you have the book...

oh at the beginning re anger section he says- "Remember that if the angry response is completely out of proportion to what is going on at the moment, it probably has little to do with the present situation. Something in the present is restimulating old memories and feelings. The safety of the current situation allows these feelings to be expressed."

good paragraph right after that on verbal abuse. Peace, (we all want it :), An

An, this is what I am working on with my H now. I have told him it is no longer acceptable behavior. We are working on finding better outlets for his anger, since taking it out on me is no longer an option. He does not see anyone in his family anymore, so I am always the one in the line of fire.

I told him, listen- I love you, I want this to work, but it will not if you continue to blame me for everything. I AM NOT THE ENEMY. If your mad at me, and then I'm mad at you, we are not communicating, we are talking at each other, not to each other. We were just talking in circles, and not moving foward on anything.

So now we are working together, and with the help of a T. We are partners, and I think he is starting to understand what that really means. NYDAISY

NY,

I believe LOVE is the answer, and LOVE heals all wounds.

I know there will be alot of soul searching before you get to that point. There is a lot of synergy to be had as healthy supportive partners. My prayers are with you both.

island

1islandboy,

Thank you for that. I am a big believer in love conquer's all. Getting him to believe it, that's something else entirely. We are working on it, and that's all i can ask for. I hope things are well for you.

Warmly, NYDAISY

I wanted to cut and paste something from a PM between me and StartingOver08 - with his knowledge - concerning this, in response to his reply that he felt in his relationship it was not a mutual understanding and he was referring to his own relationship, not necessarily anyone else's.

"Thanks, I understand that. I just wanted to point out that the other part you said (about the relationship being fake, or not mutual) is probably how our husbands feel too - but that doesn't mean that it is accurate respresentation of the situation. (Like a child being afraid of a storm - to the child, the storm is a terrifying horrible entity, to the adult in the other room, it is just rain.)

That is how you felt in your relationship - but how sure are you that your partners response wouldn't have been exactly like my response. Maybe they felt that the two of you were on equal footing, while you felt you were not. That is all I wanted to point out. Yes, I understand that is how you see your side of the situation - but the other person may see it in a totally different way.

Maybe I'll cut and paste this to the public boards. Don't want everyone thinking I'm mad at you!"

I just wanted to point that out. Each person in a relationship sees it from a different angle. (And I'm not mad at StartingOver).

Island,
I'm sorry... I HAVE to disagree... Because if love were the ultimate healer, I would never be where I am right now. Love was never an issue, the csa and it's effects were.
Liv

Liv,

in time Love will heal what you're feeling now. Because God is Love.

I Love you.

Phill