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#239044 - 07/19/08 10:04 PM Can you say NANNY-STATE?
Hauser Offline
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http://www.wwnytv.net/index.php/2008/07/14/code-enforcers-crack-down-on-silent-menace/

Comments anyone?
________________________________________________________________

Code Enforcers Crack Down On “Silent Menace”

Scott Banker always keeps a watchful eye on his 7 year old son, Ian, and his 8 year old niece, Miesha, when they play in their blue inflatable pool.

But he acknowledges he has yet to comply with state and local building code laws including the installation of an audible alarm and a barrier fence around the pool.

“I usually keep a pretty good eye on the pool, especially when they’re in it and even when they’re not in it…For the regulations, I think they’re a good idea,” said Banker.

Massena Code Enforcement Officer Gregory Fregoe has been busy this summer checking for violators.

He says any pool holding 24 inches of water or more, including inflatable blue pools, need a permit and should be surrounded by a 4 foot high locked fence or barrier.

The law also requires the pool be equipped with an audible alarm that sounds should someone fall in.

“The quick-set blue pools, which we call them, are a menace to the villages. They’re a danger because because people erect them with no concern about the code requirements,” said Fregoe.

Frego says the various sized blue pools are becoming “a silent menace” because they are cost friendly and easy to set up for the consumer, but they can also be risky and dangerous to youngsters and animals if local laws aren’t followed.

Statistics indicate that close to 200 children nationwide drown or are injured in swimming pools each year.

So far this summer, the village code enforcement officer has handed out warnings and information on how to comply with the law to more than 20 alleged first offense violators.

But a quick check found that complying with the code could end up being more costly than the price of the blue pool, especially when you factor in the $30 to $200 cost of the alarm, not to mention the cost of the fencing and other requirements.

Massena officials say before installing a pool, people should consult local and state codes or call the Code officer at 769-6803.



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#239057 - 07/19/08 10:27 PM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: Hauser]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Anything that saves lives is good to me....*shrug* People wouldn't do it if there wasn't a code. They'll always think it couldn't happen to them; then they're kid, or the neighbor's kid, falls in and dies.

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#239062 - 07/19/08 10:31 PM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: AndyJB2005]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
Beyond the ethical and moral implications...there is always the incentive of avoiding the miliion dollar lawsuits...

Toddlers are drawn to water.


CD


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#239069 - 07/19/08 10:44 PM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: CDavid]
BJK Offline
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Originally Posted By: CDavid

Toddlers are drawn to water.


And, in the case of my two year old niece, they are lightning fast and they are fearless.

Thank goodness for life jackets.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#239075 - 07/19/08 10:55 PM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: BJK]
Hauser Offline
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I thought I might share a comment from one of the reader's at this news station's web site:

"Here is an idea. How about teaching your kids to stay off of other people’s property. I don’t own a pool, but I don’ t let me kids wonder into other people’s property to jump in their pool. If I decide to place a pool in my backyard, why should I have to put up a fence, if I don’t want one. Teach your children to mind their own business, and to respect other’s property. This would eliminate the need to have a fence.

If you get a pool, teach your kids to swim. Here’s a suggestion, be a parent, and not a friend to your kids, maybe then there would be less drownings, and less need for the nazi’s to come out of the wood work and try and ruin our lives, through these petty regulations."

LOL

I guess you might be able to tell which side of this fence I'm on!


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#239077 - 07/19/08 10:59 PM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: Hauser]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
Oh, well, see...I thought the article said, "Village" :-) As in, community, as in, we all share a common goal...


Nevermind then...


:-)


CD


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#239078 - 07/19/08 11:02 PM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: Hauser]
VN Offline
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Quote:


“I usually keep a pretty good eye on the pool, especially when they’re in it and even when they’re not in it…For the regulations, I think they’re a good idea,” said Banker.



That he only 'USUALLY' keeps a close eye on children, including his own, when they are in the pool is enough for me to agree with the regulation of it. But perhaps I am sensitive to anything that could easily prevent the death of a child.

VN


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#239086 - 07/19/08 11:29 PM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: VN]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Alan, in a perfect world all kids would listen to what theyre taught by their parents. Sadly, this isnt a perfect world, and even the best kids run off sometimes and it only takes one time. Its obvious he doesnt have kids or has kids in his care sometimes.

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#239105 - 07/20/08 12:32 AM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: AndyJB2005]
Still Offline
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The above-ground blue-pools they speak of in this article are impossible for a kid to climb into without the ladder installed. It can be removed in an instant. Its really the in-ground pools that kill. You gotta REALLY try hard to get a toddler to climb up and into the blue-pools.

Its typical though, Lorie and I lived in an appartment copmplex for a while and the town banned the use of grills within 20 feet of any multi-dwelling building. I asked firemarshall Bill why? "He said people dont know how to handle grills safely."

BTW: We just installed the very same pool yesterday...LOL. NH would never fk with someone using one of these.

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#239116 - 07/20/08 02:56 AM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: AndyJB2005]
Barkabus Offline
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So shouldn't this law include every lake, pond and "water feature" that is more than 24" deep? Aren't they all just as dangerous whether man made or natural?

Ridiculous! edit: Oops! Was that a bark???



Edited by Barkabus (07/22/08 07:39 PM)
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#239127 - 07/20/08 07:54 AM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: Barkabus]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
I knowwwwww...

In my area any "water feature" is also included in the laws. We were not aware of the law, not ever having had a pool before. But the house we bought did. No one would insure it until we installed the fence. But, yea, I think here, Rob is absolutely right...if it is an above ground pool, just taking the ladder out works.


CD


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#239229 - 07/20/08 09:51 PM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: Barkabus]
BJK Offline
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I can't imagine how anyone would spend the money to have a pool installed without building a fence around it if only to protect their investment.

For what it's worth, we also have a municiple law that states that any underground pool must be fenced in.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#239259 - 07/21/08 01:35 AM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: Barkabus]
Still Offline
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Originally Posted By: Barkabus
So shouldn't this law include every lake, pond and "water feature" that is more than 24" deep? Aren't they all just as dangerous whether man made or natural?

Ridiculous!


Be careful here! That's a really good idea! Think of the jobs that could be generated through installing the fences and then enforcing the requisite regulations generated by each state's "Natural Body of Water Safety Department."

Just think of it! No longer will children have unfettered access to ponds and lakes (over 24" in depth) with which to swim unsupervised by adults (certified in aquatic safety of course).

I feel a legislative draft coming on! Thanks for the idea!


Originally Posted By: BJK
I can't imagine how anyone would spend the money to have a pool installed without building a fence around it if only to protect their investment.


This thing cost me only $200 at WallyWorld. I cant believe they sold it to me without a permit though.

______________________________________________________________

The article cites 200 fatalities of children vs. pools per year in the USA...right? Then we REALLY ought to be concerned about THIS danger.

United States has a particular problem with pedestrian deaths and injuries. About 5,000 pedestrians are killed and another 64,000 are injured in motor vehicle accidents every year in this country.

Young children and the elderly are the most vulnerable for pedestrian accident related injuries. Based on population, children under the age of 16 years are most likely to be struck by motor vehicles.

- In 2003, nearly one-fifth of all traffic fatalities for victims under the age of 16 were pedestrians.
- In 2003, almost one-forth of all traffic fatalities for children between 5 and 9 years old were pedestrians.
- In 2002, 40 percent of all pedestrians under the age of 16 occurred between 5 pm and 9 pm.


Statistics provided by the United States according to the National Highway Traffic Association and the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.

So we had better build fences around a real danger first...or maybe just stop inviting intrusive, simple-minded nanny-state control-freaks and their warped realities into our lives?

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Keep the others in your life happy - Comply Comply Comply

The Aftermath Video

My Absolute Hero!

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#239265 - 07/21/08 02:18 AM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: Still]
BJK Offline
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Rob,

Don't get me started on the lax nature of traffic safety enforcement. Automobiles kill more people every year than handguns. Where is the outrage?

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#239266 - 07/21/08 02:32 AM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: BJK]
Still Offline
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Originally Posted By: BJK
Don't get me started on the lax nature of traffic safety enforcement. Automobiles kill more people every year than handguns. Where is the outrage?



The reality is: Until an issue has a well-funded lobby, it has no right to an outrage. Detroit car makers have a lobby. Pro-gun and anti-gun each have a lobby. Traffic victims have no lobby, no org, no anything. MADD is the only thing that brought any real change to drunk driving in the USA. They are a well-funded lobby group.

On the same note; This is why we wont see any real legislative change or effective CSA enforcement until we have a lobby group.

WE hold no consumer interest. We hold no commercial interest. We are not a large and powerful, land-owning church (and they have their own lobbyists BTW). Nope, WE are kind of like the kids who get mowed-down by the speeding car...fully unrepresented on our life-changing issue of a social wrong.

_________________________
Keep the others in your life happy - Comply Comply Comply

The Aftermath Video

My Absolute Hero!

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#239381 - 07/21/08 04:54 PM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: Still]
BJK Offline
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I've been thinking about your post, Rob, because you do have a point.

We do have lobbyists, but I'm afraid they aren't always on our side. The lobbyists we do have are hell bent on getting the perps while leaving the victims behind in the dust. That's kind of counter-productive, in my eyes.

I'm now speaking as someone whose insurance policy on the year has run out of funds, so I cannot afford to see my T until January at the soonest. Where's the love for those of us who have to fight the battle even after the perps are locked up?

The answer to this problem happens to lie in an area most people just don't want to talk about. We need to teach children about sex at a young age so that they are capable of discerning for themselves at a young age whether or not their boundaries are being violated. I'm talking pre-school to kindergarten kids. Age-appropriate cirriculum should be mandated in our school systems so that kids are able to disclose abuse if it happens as soon as possible. We need to get kids out of abusive situations and get them help. And we need to continue giving them help, no matter what the cost, until they have overcome the problems they face in their day-to-day life as a result of their abuse.

But why does this kind of action meet resistance?

The answer is quite simple. Parents get defensive. "There is no way in hell you're teaching MY kid about sex in kindergarten!" The problem is, many of these kids need to be protected against their parents! Many of them are learning about sex for the first time in fourth, fifth, and sixth grade, and by then it's probably too late.

Our society gets defensive when it comes to protecting children, but here we have a clear cut case of protection going too far. It's so much easier to just get our revenge and leave it at that. Lock 'em up. Throw away the key. Let's not do anything to help prevent CSA. Let's just be reactive and fight symptoms instead of the problem.

That's my two cents.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#239428 - 07/21/08 07:53 PM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: BJK]
CDavid Offline


Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 184
Bryan,

As a parent and a grandparent, and...having lived through the sex education debacle through the seventies, eighties and nineties in the school system...so many special interest groups have to be recognized and respected. To the point where, sex education becomes the teacher pointing to the, "Boys" and "Girls: signs over the restroom doors...then, moving on.


CD


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#240237 - 07/25/08 09:51 PM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: CDavid]
Trucker51 Offline
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Guys:

Sometime back I remember a local news story in the Detroit-area about a toddler that had drowned in a 5-gallon plastic bucket. Seems that some painter had a few sitting around empty in his yard and one had filled a few inches deep with rainwater. The kid had wandered away when his mom was on the phone and two minutes later was face-down in the bucket. It seems that there were no laws broken, but there was a big lawsuit over it anyway. And afterwards a law was enacted about leaving buckets laying around.

Massena, NY is hardly a village. At one time it was a large enough city to have hosted a General Motors foundry as large as the Saginaw, MI GM foundry, which I believe is also closed now. In both cases, 3,000-5,000 good-paying jobs were lost times the spin-off effect at suppliers, trucklines, other related entities, and in the service industry. The spin-off is likely in the 3 to 3.5 times the original lost jobs rate. Add in the fact that people are slowing down, and driving less and vacationing less, especially at remote summer resort and boating destinations, because of the gas cost, and it looks like a huge revenue drop across the board at both the State and local level. Most likely Massena as a governmental entity is just a bit more than hard-up these days and is trying desperately to enhance revenue.

Massena is waterfront on the St. Lawrence River. Maybe the town should be forced to fence-off the river and install thousands of warning monitors too. Maybe even 24-hour video surveilance? I'll bet that wouldn't fly. And unfortunately, Massena isn't alone. All over the nation local governments are resorting to squeezing the locals in unheard of ways. Just recently heard of a case where several state highway patrolmen who had been recognized nationally for the number of drug seizures had finally been busted by the DEA for planting evidence in motorist's cars that they stopped. Now almost 300 convictions are in question. Gee, I wonder what the local benefit was just in the local attorney community? How many nights in local motels were paid for by those falsely charged or their relatives, or how many restaurant meals, etc, etc? The local spin-off benefit was rather substantial. Economically, the area was in the also-ran category. Wonder if that had anything to do with it?

As for the guy watching the pool from a lawn chair, I remember a pool party a while back, where I was in the pool and the one woman's kids were playing in the pool while she watched from a chaise lounge. The youngest child, then only four, was sitting on a good-sized inflatable raft, when one of the older kids came-up from under the raft and tipped the raft just enough for the little kid to slide off. I was maybe 15 feet away and it still took me 5 seconds to reach the scene, by which time the kid was on the bottom of the pool in 5 feet of water. I pulled her out real quickly, and even by then she needed to have mouth to mouth and also had to have a trip to the ER to have the ingested pool water pumped-out. And her mother never even made it to the water before I had the kid out of the pool.

Just so you know the basic impossibility of that lawn chair situation. Now five years later that kid is scared to death of going in the water. She is lucky to be alive. Just have to wonder how much longer it would have taken if I hadn't been there that close by?

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#240270 - 07/26/08 02:30 AM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: Trucker51]
Still Offline
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Someday MAYBE people will grow some brass ones and shove the code-inspector's little citation up his exhaust pipe.

_________________________
Keep the others in your life happy - Comply Comply Comply

The Aftermath Video

My Absolute Hero!

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#240319 - 07/26/08 10:38 AM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: Trucker51]
BJK Offline
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Hmm....a four year old in a pool without a lifejacket...playing on an inflatable raft that was floating on five feet deep water, obviously too deep for the four year old to touch bottom (unless she was a mutant).

I see all kinds of negligence in this situation.

My four year old niece isn't allowed in two foot deep water without a life jacket, and she is in swimming lessons.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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#240334 - 07/26/08 11:35 AM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: BJK]
AndyJB2005 Offline
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Registered: 11/14/06
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Loc: Saint Paul, Minnesota
I don't get why we're so angry over laws made to save lives...I'd rather them be there and not needed than not there and a kid dies...

Am I crazy here??

_________________________
Life's disappointments are harder to take when you don't know any swear words. -- Calvin (Calvin and Hobbes)

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#240377 - 07/26/08 02:45 PM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: BJK]
Trucker51 Offline
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Loc: Denver, CO
She actually had a baby-size life-vest on which proved to be a bit too small for her weight. The vest was large enough to allow her to float, but not large enough to keep her head above water falling-in off of the raft. How do I know that the baby has outgrown the vest when her mother seems comfortable, even a bit blaise, with the arrangement? Am I guilty of failing to oversee the habits of an unrelated woman and her children, whom I hardly knew? It seemed like an old habit for her mother.

I have begun to wonder whether maybe I am a little bit guilty of failing to take into account the effects of global warming on the winter driving habits of the average or younger motorists. Earlier in my career it was quite common to operate on packed snow at fairly high speeds in the Great Lakes and Northern New England regions and the Colorado and Wyoming mountains. These days more and more motorists are acting really frightened of a little bit of snow, while I have been acting like the winter weather today is nothing like it used to be. I do have almost 30 years/3 million miles of commercial driving experience though, in addition to a million miles in a car.

Do you see my stance on winter driving as a problem that I should look into modifying somewhat for safety reasons? Remember, my industry exists because they are more time-sensitive than the railroad is. Especially with fresh food and other time-sensitive products, there is a tremendous amount of pressure to accomplish on-time deliveries, because often, the value of the product being delivered is determined by it's age, or a delivery later than scheduled would have substantial negative financial consequences for the buyer, who is also more often than not, paying extra for the expedited tranportation service.

Remember, right off the bat, a loaded road semi takes between 3 and 4 times as long to stop as a car does from freeway speed. On a steep downgrade that can increase to 8-10 times as long. So right off the bat you have to factor in acceptable risk.

Just was looking for opinions of the average motorists. Remember, the relative low costs of all consumer products are highly dependant on the speed and time-sensitive service offered by the trucking industry.

Mark



Edited by Trucker51 (07/26/08 02:58 PM)
_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#240384 - 07/26/08 03:00 PM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: Trucker51]
BJK Offline
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I was mostly referring to the mother when I cited negligent behavior. I have learned a lot in how to take care of toddlers from my sister. When she "watches" her kids in the pool, she is taking an active role in directing their play and is ready to jump in at a moment's notice.

As far as your comments about driving go, I always give space to large trucks. When I used to work as a lineman, I considered driving to be the most dangerous aspect of my job. Just yesterday, a sanitation truck almost took out an overpass locally because he forgot to lower his boom.

People think I'm nuts because I refuse to pass trucks on the right, and I always flash my lights for them if the way is clear when they put their signal on to change lanes in front of me. Finally, when I asked you about mountain driving a few threads ago, i was genuinely concered for everyone's safety.

As far as winter driving goes, I live in Fargo where, once the roads become icy, they stay icy all winter. Pretty much the only allowance I make for driving in the winter is increasing following distances because it takes longer to stop. Since I never speed, even during the summer (yes, I'm the asshole doing 34 in a 35), I don't really see the need to reduce my speed unless the guy in front of me is going slow.

What really gets my goat is when snow is accumulating, and people slow way down because they are afraid of it being slippery or because the visibility is poor. When there is a blizzard with accumulation on the roadways, my biggest concern is not getting stuck because I'm doing 5 miles per hour in a 55 mile per hour zone.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

Top
#240423 - 07/26/08 05:42 PM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: BJK]
Trucker51 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/08
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Loc: Denver, CO
What I am encountering more and more frequently are people, and often younger people, driving at half or less of the speed limit in light snow showers with decent visibility, even though the road is just wet. 25 mph, even 35 mph, in a 75 mph zone on I-80 just because of 2 miles of visibility in snow flurries ought to be considered illegal and dangerous. Yet I am seeing just that more and more often at that latitude. Years ago there was plowed snow 8 feet high all winter long alongside the road at that latitude and now that is a very rare occorance. Fargo may yet be a bit different, but even when I lived in the Twin Cities from 97-99, they were experiencing an increase in people driving on frozen lakes and falling through, as the average winter temperatures were warming-up.

Just the other day on one of the cable news channels there was a presentation on global warming where the guy tried to downplay warming at only 1-2 degrees on average, with some places as high as 4 degrees of rise. For just a couple of seconds the bottom of a chart he was referring to was shown with the temperature rise shown, and in parenthesis, the letter (C) following the temperature rise. 4 degrees F. is 7.2 degrees C. Now we are starting to understand why the lake behind my parent's old house doesn't freeze over strong enough to drive snowmobiles on like it did back in the 1970s. Back then the average January high temperature was 23 degrees F, and now it is 30.2 degrees.

Thanks for your take on trucking and its issues. I spent the night in Fargo once back in the late 90s at the Flying J. It snowed over a foot overnight on top of the 2 feet that was already there. And the next morning I-94 had bare pavement showing on my way over to Detroit Lakes for my delivery. In a lot of places lately they have a different approach: They say that if God put it there, then let him take it away.

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#240430 - 07/26/08 06:02 PM Re: Can you say NANNY-STATE? [Re: Trucker51]
BJK Offline
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I don't necessarily believe in "global warming". Our winter this last year was actually below the 100 year average as far as average temperature goes, but even then, we are just measuring weather. There is a huge difference between "weather" and "climate".

I must also add that the worst winters in my memory were from '95 to '97, where the actual temp would hit -35 and stay there for weeks. If you were in the Twin Cities for Christmas '96, you'd know what I was talking about. I think we were just a couple of degrees away from the point where molecular motion ceases....and it was five degrees colder in Fargo.

But also, I think it must be noted that the warmest winters in my memory were from the late '80's. In January 1987, we were close to 70 degrees, which is absolutely unheard of. Of course, those were the same years where we were having dust storms because of lack of precipiatation, and the weather in the summer was routinely hitting over 100. In fact, I think from '86 to '89, we had more 100 degree days than we have had from '90 to the present. I distinctly remember the mercury climbing to 110 here in Fargo once when I was a kid and how the heat didn't bother me. A lot of people might think that would be impossible here in the frigid north, but the fact is that North Dakota is actually the fifth hottest state in the union behind California, Arizona, New Mexico and Nevada.

Now, my meteorologist friend would argue that "global warming" doesn't necessarily increase temperatures because as humidity rises, it actually regulates the temp.

That's why I don't believe in global warming. Because if all of the water in the oceans started to evaporate, that extra water in the atmosphere would start to regulate the temperature. Of course, I'm still an environmentalist at heart, and I think we should take care of the earth. Hell, over 1/3 of my investment portfolio is dedicated to companies that focuse on environmentally friendly industries like wind power, solar power, organic fertilizer, and cellulosic ethanol. However, I stopped believing in boogiemen back when Ronnie Reagan was in the Oval Office.

Bryan

_________________________
Revenge is nothing more than another way of perpetuating abuse.

What the world needs now
Is some new words of wisdom
Like la la la la la la la la la.
-David Lowery

Having a friend who will keep a secret for you is worthless compared to a friend who won't keep a secret from you.

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